even more quiddities and agonies of the ruling class - a new rolling new york times thread

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Ms. Ginn, left, in her rat-pelt dress, and Ms. LaViola chatting with guests before dinner.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/pixel.gif

scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 02:32 (seven years ago) link

damn, for some reason i couldn't get that rat-pelt dress picture to show up. maybe a moderator can add it.

scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 02:33 (seven years ago) link

i couldn't even save that picture to my computer. the times is tricky.

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2012/07/27/arts/design/20120727-RATS-4.html

scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 02:38 (seven years ago) link

she needs to come along for the ride.

scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 02:39 (seven years ago) link

Across the table Mr. Hutchings gnawed on a rat bone, pronouncing it delicious. The dinner delivered on its once-in-a-lifetime promise. “I don’t care about it as art,” he said. “I care about it as something that makes me a more interesting human being.”

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/07/27/arts/27RATS_SPAN/27RATS_SPAN-articleLarge.jpg

For Ms. Ginn skinning and eating rats represents the survivalist instincts she likes to explore in her work. “To have these sorts of skills, it’s very empowering,” she said. “It makes me feel like I have more control over my world.”

scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 03:00 (seven years ago) link

Cheryl
Westchester Cty

It reminds me a bit of the Woman Warrior ( Maxine Kingston) description of the narrator's mother as a Great Eater, one who could literally and figuratively eat any dish set before her without the slightest expression of fear or disgust. But in a setting of extreme comfort, and the best condiments and disguises for the purchased rats, it doesn't seem to signify anything. Now, if all the rats had been "wild raised" in NYC and caught by the participants, that would be a better story... Or perhaps if different rats had been trapped in different restaurants, again, we could compare the effects of different restaurant fare on their taste.... Overall, ick.

scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 03:02 (seven years ago) link

jg
San Francisco

How is this any different from the sensationalism of TV Shows like Fear Factor. Rats are disgusting and only eaten in the worst of times. They are in fact disease ridden and thoroughly disgusting. Why does this generation insist on destroying paradigms or structures without any sensible or tangible replacements. Did they learn nothing from the Baby Boomers and the "Me" generation? I hate everything about this from it's pettiness to its barbarism to the sensationalistic and cynical nature of it. Rich people eating rats. Rich indeed.

scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 03:05 (seven years ago) link

comments get really real:

Sami
Long Beach, CA

This can be seen as the expected result of the gentrification of New York that has been occurring for the past 20 years or so. Rats, formerly associated with urban squalor, became reified as a kind of aesthetic signifier of "authentic" New York-ness by the post-collegiate hordes of mostly white middle class young people who flocked to places like Williamsburg in the late 90s and early 2000s. These people were ravenous for real urban life, and embraced the rat as a component of a lifestyle they sought - even as their (the gentrifiers) increasing presence destroyed that same reality by displacing working class residents and communities that had been associated with the presence of rats during the Reagan era of urban decline. This event combines the role that art plays in the gentrification process with the gentrifiers obsession with "local" food culture in an ironic glorification of their (Pyrrhic) conquest of the "urban."

scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 03:07 (seven years ago) link

something about eating rats that really pisses people off.

scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 03:07 (seven years ago) link

Sometimes I feel like the cycle of trolling and being trolled has just become a ritual for the Times style sections, like the commenters are just this chorus of people who "come to boo"

Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 14:59 (seven years ago) link

I mean that's what we are, basically

Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 15:00 (seven years ago) link

ya they know what theyre doin

lag∞n, Friday, 27 July 2012 15:02 (seven years ago) link

Sami
Long Beach, CA

This can be seen as the expected result of the gentrification of New York that has been occurring for the past 20 years or so. Rats, formerly associated with urban squalor, became reified as a kind of aesthetic signifier of "authentic" New York-ness by the post-collegiate hordes of mostly white middle class young people who flocked to places like Williamsburg in the late 90s and early 2000s. These people were ravenous for real urban life, and embraced the rat as a component of a lifestyle they sought - even as their (the gentrifiers) increasing presence destroyed that same reality by displacing working class residents and communities that had been associated with the presence of rats during the Reagan era of urban decline. This event combines the role that art plays in the gentrification process with the gentrifiers obsession with "local" food culture in an ironic glorification of their (Pyrrhic) conquest of the "urban."

― scott seward, Friday, 27 July 2012 04:07 (13 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^ rad

, Blogger (schlump), Friday, 27 July 2012 16:51 (seven years ago) link

I think we can't totally discount the possibility that this artist is trolling us too, like basically going for what that commenter is describing? I mean “I don’t care about it as art,” he said. “I care about it as something that makes me a more interesting human being.”

Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 16:53 (seven years ago) link

that sounds like trolling

Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 16:53 (seven years ago) link

i don't know, do you think that psychiatrists think their case studies are interesting as human beings, or just... interesting...?

j., Friday, 27 July 2012 17:21 (seven years ago) link

I think we can't totally discount the possibility that this artist is trolling us too, like basically going for what that commenter is describing? I mean “I don’t care about it as art,” he said. “I care about it as something that makes me a more interesting human being.”

― Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 16:53 (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this wasn't the artist, this was one of the guests

this seems totally fine to me tbh

thomp, Friday, 27 July 2012 17:26 (seven years ago) link

i hope that they get the plague and die.

KARLOR CAN FUCK ANYTHING! AND HE WILL AND HAS!!! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 29 July 2012 00:33 (seven years ago) link

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/automobiles/autoreviews/you-cant-beat-it-with-a-stick.html

Priced from $26,795, this is the ILX that screams “compromise” at the top of its little 2-liter lungs, with standard cloth seats and just 150 breathless horses from a version of the Civic engine.

seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Sunday, 29 July 2012 06:53 (seven years ago) link

the ILX seems limited to fans of zing-it-yourself compacts at a relatively high price.

undermikey: bidness (Autumn Almanac), Sunday, 29 July 2012 07:01 (seven years ago) link

too much time on nyt

I dont even know that I think this sucks per se (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 29 July 2012 14:11 (seven years ago) link

hey, in the interest of fair play, i read that article about the girl tavi who had the fashion blog and now has the rookie site and she seems cool and her site looks great and smart.

don't want to hate every young person in the new york times. makes me feel bad.

"in the spirit of sassy magazine" is always a good move. plus, john waters loves her and that's good enough for me.

wish more websites looked like the rookie site for real! so easy to read and navigate and pleasant to look at.

http://rookiemag.com/

scott seward, Sunday, 29 July 2012 16:27 (seven years ago) link

ya tavi is awesome

lag∞n, Sunday, 29 July 2012 16:38 (seven years ago) link

yep rookie is great and i wish i was as cool and smart at 28 as tavi is at 15/16

Roz, Sunday, 29 July 2012 16:55 (seven years ago) link

nothing to hate about tavi.

wmlynch, Sunday, 29 July 2012 18:25 (seven years ago) link

Rookie is great and I wish it was there to read when I was 12+ years old. So much better than so many teen girl mags.

Crabbits, Sunday, 29 July 2012 19:54 (seven years ago) link

LONG ILX THREADS HATE THIS ONE SIMPLE TRICK:

1. Click on the Permalink of the message right after the cutoff.

2. The URL will now contain something like "bookmarkedmessageid=3669956"

3. Change that number to something smaller and you will be jumped back to an earlier point in the thread without loading the whole thing.

― Godzilla vs. Rodan Rodannadanna (The Yellow Kid), Friday, July 27, 2012 12:52 PM (6 days ago) Bookmark

I feel dumb for not having thought of doing this myself!

Je55e, Friday, 3 August 2012 12:07 (seven years ago) link

i tried it on the long orig breaking bad thread & it didnt seem 2 work

johnny crunch, Friday, 3 August 2012 12:18 (seven years ago) link

Which part didn't work? The only maybe tricky part is that if you don't make that number small enough, you won't get any older messages. And if you make that number too small you'll be at the first messages. Usually lowering it by thousands or ten-thousands is enough.

Godzilla vs. Rodan Rodannadanna (The Yellow Kid), Friday, 3 August 2012 18:45 (seven years ago) link

i have tried it and it worked

lag∞n, Friday, 3 August 2012 18:46 (seven years ago) link

What I do with a long thread is open it at my bookmarked spot and then hit permalink on the first post while the rest is loading.

Moodles, Friday, 3 August 2012 19:51 (seven years ago) link

fyi you can also click on the permalink for the last post before the fold and then just click “view previous page"

1staethyr, Friday, 3 August 2012 20:40 (seven years ago) link

View Previous Page has only ever worked sporadically for me.

Godzilla vs. Rodan Rodannadanna (The Yellow Kid), Friday, 3 August 2012 20:46 (seven years ago) link

i enjoy that scott is all 'that tavi girl'

thomp, Friday, 3 August 2012 21:24 (seven years ago) link

View Previous Page has only ever worked sporadically for me.

― Godzilla vs. Rodan Rodannadanna (The Yellow Kid), Friday, August 3, 2012 4:46 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

smells like ok (soda) (dayo), Saturday, 4 August 2012 13:35 (seven years ago) link

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/nyregion/four-men-sharing-rent-and-friendship-for-18-years.html

men. living together.

goole, Saturday, 4 August 2012 17:57 (seven years ago) link

i was looking for a thread on like manchildren or something to post this on but i guess this is close enough because lol nytimes not so much these guys are the ruling class

buzza, Saturday, 4 August 2012 18:58 (seven years ago) link

"Shyaporn Theerakulstit, actor and audiobook narrator"

I dont even know that I think this sucks per se (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 5 August 2012 12:46 (seven years ago) link

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/fashion/montauk-feels-the-effects-of-too-many-hipsters.html

In the meantime, longtime residents are left to harken back to that first crowd that had to endure an invasion of newcomers, the Montauket tribe. As Mr. Devlin’s wife, Eileen, joked on Friday as the restaurant prepared for another busy night, “Now I know how the Indians felt.”

Nope. No you don't.

Playoff Starts Here (san lazaro), Sunday, 5 August 2012 13:00 (seven years ago) link

it notes clearly that she was joking

lag∞n, Sunday, 5 August 2012 13:16 (seven years ago) link

yah what gives

smells like ok (soda) (dayo), Sunday, 5 August 2012 13:17 (seven years ago) link

Another showed a rifle and the words “Defend Montauk.”

printing hipster shirts against hipsters u might be a hipster

lag∞n, Sunday, 5 August 2012 13:21 (seven years ago) link

also isnt the fedora more of a broish affectation

lag∞n, Sunday, 5 August 2012 13:21 (seven years ago) link

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/nyregion/four-men-sharing-rent-and-friendship-for-18-years.html

men. living together.

― goole, Saturday, August 4, 2012 1:57 PM

this was hilarious! The comments, though, are mostly horrifying.

a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 5 August 2012 13:57 (seven years ago) link

quiddities thread has made me insensitive to the real articles, i want all the stupid setup cut so i can get right to the aughs

j., Sunday, 5 August 2012 15:58 (seven years ago) link

so by hipster they just mean young money?

Will Chave (Hurting 2), Sunday, 5 August 2012 16:09 (seven years ago) link

http://i.imgur.com/aXnRN.jpg

well

lag∞n, Sunday, 5 August 2012 17:47 (seven years ago) link

Blake's barely lasted a year i think.

Yerac, Tuesday, 4 June 2019 21:35 (two months ago) link

one month passes...

What Middle-Class Families Want Politicians to Know

nothing that egregious in here except that all these families make at least $100,000 a year

mookieproof, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 16:21 (one month ago) link

deeply sadly 100k for a family _is_ middle class for nyc i imagine

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 9 July 2019 19:46 (one month ago) link

this one tho

The Battle of Grace Church: What happened when Brooklyn’s oldest nursery school decided to become less old-fashioned? A riot among the one percent.

The world was a simmering, seething cauldron, one that was only going to get hotter and harder to survive in. If this felt true in general, it felt especially true to the residents of Brooklyn Heights, whose small universe had recently gotten a lot more crowded. The glass towers that sprung up along the waterfront had filled up with families, yet the number of schools remained the same. In the past, parents could pay their way into Grace Church, which traditionally served as a feed to St. Ann’s and Packer Collegiate, one of the two private schools traditionally favored by Brooklynites with $40,000-plus a year to spend on setting their children on The Correct Path. Now this privilege, like all others, seemed in jeopardy.

mookieproof, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 19:50 (one month ago) link

yeah, that one was a laff riot it's true

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 9 July 2019 19:51 (one month ago) link

deeply sadly 100k for a family _is_ middle class for nyc i imagine

Yeah but one of those familes is +200K in Wyomissing PA.

Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 9 July 2019 19:52 (one month ago) link

you need that 200k to get by in (checks notes) Laveen Arizona i guess
i gotta move

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 9 July 2019 19:54 (one month ago) link

I usually feel like 'families' make 50k or 110k and there is barely an in between. It's messed up.

Yerac, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 20:06 (one month ago) link

three weeks pass...

Kara Swisher's tech columns have moved beyond ridiculous into some sublime pure land of drivel. pic.twitter.com/5Q5hGOim0U

— Pinboard (@Pinboard) August 6, 2019

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 6 August 2019 17:02 (two weeks ago) link

(screenshots from the same column)

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 6 August 2019 17:03 (two weeks ago) link

hadn't really noticed her before so i clicked on another random article and got this word salad:

[Don’t get me wrong, I love to scoot, and I do it often, including a whole bunch of times here in Paris. Zoom, I went to meet someone for lunch in a bistro near the Bastille. Zip, that was me going under the Arc de Triomphe. Zut alors, me again sailing along the Seine on a Bird.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 6 August 2019 17:18 (two weeks ago) link

wasn't there some recipe column that did the exact same thing in the NYT a while back?

Number None, Tuesday, 6 August 2019 17:19 (two weeks ago) link

The pileup of adjectives in the first sentence of that tweet remind me of trying to pad out a book report in the 5th grade

“Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), Tuesday, 6 August 2019 19:11 (two weeks ago) link

pareene on the aristocracy's paper

Take a surgeon, making $400,000. That is, more or less, the intended reader of the Times, which consigns a mere family practitioner making $200,000 to the “middle class.” Indeed, the Times itself helpfully clarified its own upward-skewing vision of social class in a delightfully unselfaware Opinion section piece about “the middle class in America” made up almost entirely of subjects with six-figure household incomes. When readers criticized the paper’s apparent redefinition of “middle” and “class,” the Times braintrust explained the editorial process that led to the creation of that piece: They simply tasked reporters to ask Times readers who self-identified as middle class; not surprisingly, these open-ended inquiries yielded a handful of objectively wealthy people who simply don’t feel that rich.

https://newrepublic.com/article/154726/heres-better-reason-unsubscribe-new-york-times

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, 9 August 2019 19:58 (two weeks ago) link

the jonathan weisman stuff is really quite something

mookieproof, Friday, 9 August 2019 20:15 (two weeks ago) link

Yeah, he's an idiot who tweets racist shit again and again and when a black woman pointed it out he mailed her, her assistant, and her publisher to demand an apology. How the fuck is that not a firing reason?

Frederik B, Saturday, 10 August 2019 10:58 (one week ago) link

lol

NYT says it is demoting Jonathan Weisman -- he will be an editor in DC, but no longer overseeing Congressional correspondents, and no longer active on social media. Weisman has been contrite. Story to follow.

— marc tracy (@marcatracy) August 13, 2019

mookieproof, Tuesday, 13 August 2019 20:39 (one week ago) link

This article was interesting and made a decent argument.

Here's a Better Reason to Unsubscribe From The New York Times
It's not the "newspaper of record." It's a rag for the East Coast rich.

You shouldn’t unsubscribe from The New York Times over a bad headline. Or even over a bad pattern of editorial decisions dating back years demonstrating an institutional worldview poisoned by false equivalence, blinkered elitism, and fealty to power. Don’t unsubscribe to punish them, or as economic leverage to force them to Do Better. You should instead unsubscribe from the Times because the Paper of Record doesn’t need your money. Or, at least, the Times needs it much less than someone else probably does.

The Times itself reported on Wednesday that The New York Times Company earned an operating profit of $37.9 million in the second quarter of this year—down from last year but still pretty healthy—thanks in large part to the paper’s combined print and digital subscriber base of 4.7 million readers.

If you are among that 4.7 million, you have been won over with some canny marketing. The Times’ decision to heavily invest in attracting subscriptions from a national (even international) audience has been a savvy and largely successful one, but almost by definition these world-conquering ambitions can only succeed at the expense of other, smaller outlets. There is not an unlimited international appetite for newspaper subscriptions. And that expansion has required the paper to market itself as various things it is not: chiefly as a true national newspaper, meant to be read by every literate American, or as a voice of the Resistance. But it has never been either of those things, nor has it ever sought to be. The Times has a specific niche in the media environment, and it is quite good at being the thing it actually wants to be.

The Times is a paper for the East Coast rich. If that doesn’t describe you, the paper is not making editorial decisions with you in mind.

“Times readers in the New York metropolitan area are upscale, affluent, Jewish, liberal and identify with New York’s culture, its museums and its art,” a former Times circulation editor said in a 2013 interview. The company’s media kit—the PR materials designed to convince brands to purchase ads in the paper or on their website—tells a similar story: “The NYT Weekday ranks #1 with Opinion Leaders, reaching 57% of this elite group.” It reports a median household income of $191,000 for readers of the paper and $96,000 for the website.

I am an urban professional, living in New York, making a good living, and The New York Times is barely even for me. Take a surgeon, making $400,000. That is, more or less, the intended reader of the Times, which consigns a mere family practitioner making $200,000 to the “middle class.” Indeed, the Times itself helpfully clarified its own upward-skewing vision of social class in a delightfully unselfaware Opinion section piece about “the middle class in America” made up almost entirely of subjects with six-figure household incomes. When readers criticized the paper’s apparent redefinition of “middle” and “class,” the Times braintrust explained the editorial process that led to the creation of that piece: They simply tasked reporters to ask Times readers who self-identified as middle class; not surprisingly, these open-ended inquiries yielded a handful of objectively wealthy people who simply don’t feel that rich.

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Tuesday, 13 August 2019 20:51 (one week ago) link

They simply tasked reporters to ask Times readers who self-identified as middle class

haha

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 13 August 2019 20:57 (one week ago) link

upscale, affluent, Jewish, liberal

Did they really have to go there?

pomenitul, Tuesday, 13 August 2019 21:01 (one week ago) link

occurred to me too

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 13 August 2019 21:03 (one week ago) link

Ew

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 14 August 2019 02:45 (one week ago) link

Fun Par33n3 take but as a New Republic piece it's fkn rich.

What, pray tell, ought we to read instead? Perhaps TNR speaks for the people? Oh look, while bashing NYT's bid for national online subs TNR flashes me an interstitial to subscribe online. Sounds like a plan. That'll really stick it to those rich twits at the Grey Lady.

And how does TNR define middle class? Horse has been beaten to death but in Manhattan (or SF, or LA...) an HHI of 200K isn't a sob story but isn't not middle class. I'm not gonna fight anyone over this but it's a shallow take.

I'm not even defending the Times but TNR was the wrong place to publish this one.

Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 14 August 2019 22:22 (one week ago) link

https://advertise.newrepublic.com

Good stuff A+ will advertise with you instead of that stodgy old NYT

Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 14 August 2019 22:23 (one week ago) link

I'm not even defending the Times but TNR was the wrong place to publish this one.

― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:22 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

where should he have published it? this bit not satisfactory?

It is not inherently bad for a media outlet to be, broadly, “for” rich people. Within that framework, there is plenty of room for important investigative journalism and vibrant culture coverage. (The New Republic’s subscriber base, especially for the print magazine, is fairly well-to-do, and we market that audience in much the same way the Times does.)

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Wednesday, 14 August 2019 22:28 (one week ago) link

hahahaha

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 14 August 2019 22:47 (one week ago) link

caek, that particular fig leaf isn't worth shit in the context of "you should unsubscribe from these guys but here's an ad to subscribe to us"

Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 14 August 2019 23:06 (one week ago) link

Do you have a problem with the piece or just the place that published it? Sheesh dude

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 14 August 2019 23:17 (one week ago) link

Lmao “fig leaf”

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 15 August 2019 01:51 (one week ago) link

Pareene’s failure to re-found the Daily Worker and publish it there really undermines his thesis.

Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Thursday, 15 August 2019 01:57 (one week ago) link

Goddamn that Bors panel's got legs.

Simon H., Thursday, 15 August 2019 01:58 (one week ago) link

As evergreen as the Milkshake Duck tweet.

Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Thursday, 15 August 2019 01:59 (one week ago) link

eh not gonna go to the mat on this one but yeah, enjoyable enough as a Gawker post, weird coming from a pub that targets Times Readers, But A Few Years Younger.

tbh there's not even much of a thesis. he wraps with a clarion call to "appreciate the content on its own merits—or don’t" which yeah, I guess I'll keep reading the Times and TNR occasionally without subscribing.

Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Thursday, 15 August 2019 03:06 (one week ago) link

my actual issue with the piece is pareene’s presumption that people need to be told to unsubscribe from the NYT in 2019 for the right (class consciousness) reasons. like oh thanks bud hadn’t figured out how to justify my news consumer decisions to myself but now I’m squared away! 🤪 fuck off

El Tomboto, Thursday, 15 August 2019 03:57 (one week ago) link

What a weird bunch of people

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 15 August 2019 05:22 (one week ago) link

new board description obv

Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Thursday, 15 August 2019 05:44 (one week ago) link

Slate ran a transcript of the recent editorial meeting.

Basically, a lot of Times staffers are sick of calling things "racially tinged".

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Thursday, 15 August 2019 21:16 (one week ago) link

rogermex = classic centrist War Democrat? even a Tarantino fan

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Monday, 19 August 2019 21:56 (four days ago) link

The NYT editorial board is Vaguely Concerned about an American empire it helped create by supporting every US military action for the past 35 years. They won’t commit to any concrete action in pull back said empire but they kinda, maybe think it’s too big https://t.co/AIggJK4Log

— Adam H. Johnson (@adamjohnsonNYC) August 19, 2019

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Monday, 19 August 2019 21:56 (four days ago) link

35 years is awfully specific? What's the deal there?

Frederik B, Monday, 19 August 2019 22:00 (four days ago) link

not sure of their track record but just going on dates it suggests opposition to... grenada?

Good morning, how are you, I'm (Doctor Casino), Monday, 19 August 2019 23:05 (four days ago) link

come on pretty mama

cheese canopy (map), Monday, 19 August 2019 23:08 (four days ago) link

If there is an argument at all for the way the United States invaded Grenada, President Reagan has been clumsy in making it. The rescue of medical students was, almost by his own admission, only a pretext. Their evacuation, if necessary, could have been accomplished by lesser means. The legal justifications were a sham. Such breaches of treaties and sovereignty can only be rationalized by the aggressions of others.

Four days after the landings, Mr. Reagan finally pointed to a valid question, conceding his underlying concern: What were all those Cubans doing in Grenada? But whether or not the President is vindicated in his belatedly admitted suspicions about a Cuban threat, he has surely failed to reckon fully with the cost of his response.

If Cubans, on behalf of the Soviet Union, were subverting Grenada's Government and establishing a base ''to export terror and undermine democracy'' in Latin America, their expulsion is surely a proper American objective.

What is the evidence? The presence of a force of Cuban worker-soldiers larger than Washington anticipated, better trained and hoarding more weapons than anyone knew. Though Mr. Reagan voiced concern last March about the airfield the Cubans were building on Grenada, he either had inadequate intelligence about them before the invasion or is being served a much inflated picture of their operation now.

Plainly the President was predisposed to attack, to seize a moment of turmoil on the island to rid himself of the Grenada headache. If his worst suspicions are confirmed in the coming days, he will have denied the Russians and Cubans another Caribbean airfield, an auxiliary station for small- arms transfers and a modest source of new recruits for international mischief. Set this still uncertain gain against the price. It, too, cannot yet be fully reckoned, but it will be far more costly than the loss of a dozen soldiers. Simply put, the cost is loss of the moral high ground: a reverberating demonstration to the world that America has no more respect for laws and borders, for the codes of civilization, than the Soviet Union. To liberate Grenada from some local henchmen, and perhaps from Cubans, America has defined its duty and security in ways that make it look like a paranoid bully. To much of the world, the invasion appears no different than the Soviet suppression of Poland or the occupation of Afghanistan. Even friends in the hemisphere and in Europe are tempted to think of the superpowers as equally selfish, possessed by geopolitical games. In their private thoughts, they may even raise a cheer for the Davids who dare to stand up to either Goliath. A great many Americans, to be sure, feel better about their country this weekend than last. The carnage among passive marines in Lebanon struck them as one more sign of impotence, exposing a chronic failure of will to stand up to terrorists. Now, in tiny Grenada, Americans have shown that they can play hardball, too, that they can be just as tough at defending their turf as the Commies. Watch Out, Nicaragua. Beware, Syria. Keep Out, Russia. It's a seductive but immature reaction. When all is done, pacifying Grenada will prove only the obvious about American power. The enduring test for Americans is not whether we have the will to use that power but the skill to avoid having to. A President who felt he had no other choice last Monday night should not be celebrating a victory. He should be repairing the prior political failures and forestalling the bitter harvest to come.

Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Monday, 19 August 2019 23:31 (four days ago) link

(nyt editorial regarding invasion of grenada)

Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Monday, 19 August 2019 23:33 (four days ago) link

rogermex = classic centrist War Democrat? even a Tarantino fan


not even worth an eyeroll but it’s sweet that you think about me so much

Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 01:40 (three days ago) link

poverty takes one strange places

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 10:57 (three days ago) link


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