Doctor Who: Classic or Dud?

There are too many great stories to count, but my favourite episode is probably The Ark In Space, or whatever that scary one with the sleeping people in the space station that got eaten by giant bees.

Also, the whole season that was the "key to time" story arc, I can't remember the name of any individual episodes, but just the fact that the Sonic Screwdriver ended up being the key on which the whole universe hinged was pretty damned cool. Plus, I had, like, a huge crush on Adrik, the original indie maths nerd, when I was a pre-teen. Though of all the companions, I think Romana was the coolest, just cause I wanted to *be* her. She was smarter than the Dr, after all. :-)

Funny, cause all the things that people point to, saying it's a dud- abysmally low production budget, lack of special effects, socks with googley eyes glued on for monsters- were all the things that made it endearing. And the quality of writing was just AMAZING- the minimal budget that they had, they spent on getting the very best in sci fi writers to come up with concepts and stories so engaging that you didn't care that it looked crap.

I could go on at length, but I've already outed myself as a geek enough on this board for one week...

"Doctor Who" was far and away my favorite show growing up. "The Ark In Space" is definitely high on my list, along with "The Robots of Death", "Kinda", "The Caves Of Androzani", the whole Key To Time season, "Inferno", "The Mind Robber"... Oh, I could go on and on. Favorite Doc is Davison, mostly because he managed to pull off underplaying the role and comes across as even more powerful because of it. Hell, I'm so into it that I've got EVERY book published in the New Adventures series from _Timewyrm: Genesys_ in the Virgin series through _Vanishing Point_ in the BBC series. (I do draw the line at conventions, though. Even when I was a kid, I thought the entire concept of a Doctor Who convention filled with adults dressed as these characters to be really disturbing.)

Best companions? Without a doubt, Leela, Romana I, Tegan, Sarah Jane, and Turlough. Especially Leela. (cf: fictional characters I've had a crush on)

Classic: the (original) Master, played by Roger Delgado.

Dud: all the stuff with Unit (ur-notion for the Initiative in Buffy? Only rubbish instead of good, obviously), and Pertwee himself (to me = Troughton nut). But Pertwee's ENEMIES were often grate (=Devils, Sea Devils: one of the Devils was called BOD!!)

Ten-ton dud: Tom "Overract why fucking don't you" Baker. But the Gallifrey/Time Lord business was often amusing.

Three-ton dud: Peter Davidson. BUT the ing on the first season of stories (esp. CASTROVALVA, abut timewarps and paradoxes, name taken from a lithograph by ESCHER = overlooked classic)

Hundred-ton duds: subsequent Doctors /Peter Cushing movies

Castrovalva! Was that the one where they were trapped in the scarily moebius strip city that Adrik (ah, archetype of all indie mathsrock nerds of my heart...) discovered that he had mistakenly created with his mathematical formulae?

Oh, and here's a question: K-9, what think you? Super-cool uber gadget who always saved the day, or annoying cutesy ploy, the Dr. Who equivalent of Ewoks?

Man, I have always wished that I had a sonic screwdriver!

Castrovalva and Adrik: very possibly correct — of course, this era Who is NEVER repeated (cuz supposedly a decline on Pertwee/ Baker), plus my memory is swirling away like asteroids into a time discontinuity anyway, so I don't recall. Part of my mathrock reason for liking Adrik was that the maths was, erm, not utterly entirely bogus. (mathrock = mathmath in my case...)

Jo = my major crush-assistant, I suppose. Can't be: she always screamed and wuz scared. Who was the one who ACTUALLY DIED? Played by Jean Marsh (later of Upstairs Downstairs). Or am I tripping?

GOT IT! My major crush assistant was Zoe!! (This too is a Wow-factor thing...)

Sub-thread Q: lamest Dr Who assistant?

Mark is right - it's your second. Peter Davison in my case. This theory probably falls down if applied to any post-Davison due to transcendental awfulness.

Jean Marsh played Sara Kingdom in "The Dalek Masterplan" and has the distinction of being the only companion to join and die in the same story. (Of course, "The Dalek Masterplan" went on for 16 episodes or something like that...)

"Castrovalva" is definitely the one where the Master uses Adric to generate a trans-dimensional mathematical construct solely to trap a confused and newly-regenerated Doctor.

Patrick Troughton rocked the house as far as I can tell. The only stories of his I've really seen are "The Mind Robber" and "The War Games", though, so I don't have enough evidence to knock Davison outof the top spot. The Yeti were SORELY underused, though.

Frasier Hines, who played Jamie, was also on "Upstairs, Downstairs".

The Doctor had three companions die during the television series; Srar Kingdom, Katarina, and Adric. The books added Liz Shaw and Roslynn Forrester to this list, plus the Brigadier is now living out the rest of his life in an alternate dimension populated by faries. (No, really.)

The misfortune of the Peri character was teaming her with the sixth Doctor. Either forceful, grating personality could have worked, but both together were a SHOCKINGLY bad idea. Interestingly enough, the new fiction line has managed to not only completely salvage Peri and the sixth Doctor, but also the hideously misconceived Melanie Bush, who has gone from being a chirpy nightmare to one of the more capable people the Doctor has travelled with.

Worst companion? Victoria Waterfield, aka the extremely wet Victorian girl whose sole function was to scream, "Help me Jamie!" at every opportunity. They replaced her with Zoe for reason, folks...

No, but that would have been awesome! More sad fannishness:

Sixth Doctor, "Trial of a Timelord". The Doctor gets taken outof time by the Timelords and put on trial for being a general menace to the universe. As it transpires, he was pulled out of time as he was rushing to rescue Peri from having her brain sucked out and replaced with one from a slug-like dictator. Therefore, he wasn't there to save her and she was killed, becoming an evil pod person. The companion who ended up replacing her, Mel, was played by Bonnie Langford.

(At the end of the trial, it's strongly hinted that Peri was actually saved by one of the people fighting the evil slugs and ended up marrying him, which is why I didn't list her amongst the dead.)

And he had a soft spot for Jo. There's a scene in "The Green Death", at some point after she announces her engagement to Dr Jones, where he glances at her as if to say 'if I were ten...fifteen years younger'. Quite touching really.

The VERY FIRST companion was Susan, who was the doctor's DAUGHTER? No? She was interesting, it being 1963 and therefore pre- pop, let alone pre-Kate Millett: cuz she was SUPER-CLEVER, and the earth-boys were baffled and threatened and intrigued by this. But I don't remember her to look at since (a) B/W episodes never repeated; and (b) her character/look is overlaid by things I much later read in ancient second-hand TV comic-books and by the very repeated film with Bernard fucking Cribbins in it). (BC = cool, just not appropriate to this story...)

But I do remember a scene with her in it, which is poorly revisited in the film, when the white bedford van she is in (driven by a dalek-resistance soldier) is strafed by the giant dalek ship. Cuz where I lived and where my dad worked the staff van was a white bedford van, and when I was in it, I often used to check out that there was enough foliage near enough that I could jump out of the van — as Susan had — and roll to cover into it, shd the dalek ship appear and begin strafing.

That is all. (That is enough...)

An episode of Fireball XL5 gave me the all- time nightmares-for-week spooking, though.

My memory of this is hazy, despite being told this story dozens of times in my youth, but by all accounts he was very nice, askign K9 why he wasn't in the tardis, who his friend was and so on. What a nice chap.

Best series Genesis of the Daleks, but only cos a friend did it as a one man show. His interpretation of Davros was jumping around in a frying pan, tom Baker was a pan on the head.

tom Baker was the best imho.

Ace was very annoying though, and janet what's her name from Blue peter

Anyway, Jo (Katy Manning) destroyed and stomped on my pre-adolescent heart by marrying the dull Sgt. Benson in the Pertwee/Unit days. I've never ever recovered, never will and don't want to. A goddess.

Great call on Roger Delgado. A scary mutha in a very English way.

Mark: my school library also always had the Mail. The librarian was a self-described "true blue" Tory, hmmm, what a surprise ...

Taking sides: Peanuts vs The Perishers

Did you all see the mid-90's TV movie with Paul McGann and Daphne Ashbrook? Any comments?

There's a great Doctor Who book floating out there called _Interference_ where the Doctor runs into an enemy who completely FUBAR's his past timeline. I love that idea and I'm kind of bummed out that the show never really exploited that aspect of time travel (ill-conceived Valeyard aside).

Doctor Who assistants - Search/Destroy
The Man That Ruined Doctor Who
Doctor Who Weekly/Monthly comic strips - Search/Destroy

MIND FITE!!!

Castrovalva is rubbish though!

The VERY FIRST companion was Susan, who was the doctor's DAUGHTER? No? She was interesting, it being 1963 and therefore pre- pop, let alone pre-Kate Millett: cuz she was SUPER-CLEVER, and the earth-boys were baffled and threatened and intrigued by this. But I don't remember her to look at since (a) B/W episodes never repeated

I remember the surviving B/W episodes being shown on UK Gold when UK Gold first started, in the early 90s. I think Susan told everyone that she was the doctor's granddaughter, but this might just have been a ploy to explain why he was her guardian to boring Earth people.

My favourite Doctor Who related thing is probably Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, a Douglas Adams novel put together from late-70s Doctor Who scripts that were never broadcast. (as was the third Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy book)

Exquisite. Simply... exquisite.

Tico - The BRANE OF MORBIUS should only be attempted after a couple of cans of RELAXANT in my opinion cos it is very silly. Also you will be annoyed by the rubbish assistant who falls over a lot. The priestesses are brilliant. But yes I am up for DOCTOR ACTION.

Secret flame! Secret fire!

aw i love it

Torchwood is weird. The nerdy guy with the date rape spray in the first episode gives me the creeps.

have started watching Eccleston with my 8 year-old, it is good fun - weird to watch them with 15 years' perspective! incredibly impressed by how much they get done in Rose. lots of hokey bits that were probably hokey in 2005 but my kid digs it.

and - something I've noticed with a lot of genre stuff - things I write off as SF cliches or limp gags are actually considered cool "makes u think" ideas or get a genuine laugh.

I actually can't imagine him being ready to watch some of the later Moffatt episodes - it sure drifted a long way back towards Bidmead/Saward kind of Who. which I also like but can understand why the ratings slowly declined (yes also other reasons for that).

Going in blind to the entire Who universe, I liked the Eccleston season (and Eccleston) much more than the 2.5 of Tennant I've seen so far.

I want to say Tennant is hammier but they were both hammy, Eccleston's has more of a crazy edge to it (vs. Tennant's wacky edge)

ham & edge

Tennant also more deliberately channeling aspects of earlier Doctors

Torchwood is not especially recommended by anyone around here btw milo

though there's an episode where Captain Jack lezzes up with Spike off of Buffy if that's of any interest

I know but I wanted to try the further adventures of Captain Jack. (he also seems like a different character, aside from being equally horny 24/7)

Does Marsters do an English accent again or his real American one?

Brown hair, less cartoonish English accent.

(and if you're really not enjoying the Tennant era, it's fine to skip from Midnight, which you're nearly up to, to S05e01, The Eleventh Hour. He's basically a leg of ham carved into comedy/tragedy masks in the later S04 and year-of-specials episodes, just flipping one or the other to camera per scene. plus in tone, the episodes are seven RTD season finales in a row)

I'd watch Torchwood: Children of Earth if you don't have kids.

I'm not not enjoying him (+Martha was an improvement over Rose), I just really liked Eccleston.

yeah, Children Of Earth is a completely different creature from regular Torchwood

Yeah I’m enjoying Eccleston much more this time round - I think back in the day I wanted him to be more classically “doctorish”, and felt that he was at times palpaby uncomfortable with the sillier requirements the role - now it just feels like someone finding their own take on it from an admirably non-fan perspective

in contrast I can easily believe that Tennant’s fanboy infused performance hasn’t dated as well

Still think Capaldi’s turn is pretty exceptional but I do have a track record of liking the most recent doctor best (with apologies to Jodie Whittaker who might well be amazing if she wasn’t trapped in a woeful era of the show)

I watched a Capaldi clip and it's hard to wrap my head around him giving a Doctor speech because I've watched In The Loop ten times and most of The Thick Of It.

No arse-spraying mayhem from aliens I'm guessing

(Like gherkins in a jar)

Heh sorry that was an xp to myself

Probably the right comment for just about any occasion tho

I’m very slowly rewatching the Ecclestone season and just saw Fathers Day for the first time as an actual parent, and basically dissolved into sobs every time said the word “dad’.

The first season’s still the best - the best doctor, the best stories, the best doctor-companion chemistry, no clunkers, and sometimes Murray Gold even shuts up for whole minutes. There’s a big climactic speech in Father's Day with no background music at all - unheard of.

It’s also amazing how the FX get better - difficult to believe it goes from “mickey swallowed by a wheelie bin” to “recreates the blitz” in half a season.

No arse-spraying mayhem from aliens I'm guessing

I can't remember if Capaldi met up with the Slitheen or not

got the season 14 blu-ray set (that's Tom Baker season 3 for us Americans) and watched it over the weekend. some serials have two commentaries so I watched some stories three times, whoever said upthread that classic Who is perfect background viewing is spot on, especially if it's a Tom Baker. The Robots of Death is the clear winner for me this round, although the Hand of Fear is much better than I remembered it being. I suppose a bonus feature problematizing Talons is too much to hope for but it would have been good in a box set released in 2020. Presumably the BBC aren't willing to be that self-reflective on the record.

I never really got the lionization of Talons? I thought it was good but... Robots of Death is way better

It's bracketed by what I think are two much better stories, as you say Robots of Death and then Horror of Fang Rock.

Ha I was going to mention Horror but saw it was actually the next season

But yes, also better than Talons, always has been

sometimes on ILM when someone bumps a thread about an old muso, people lightly freak out because they feared that the subject might have passed away

now when I see a doctor who thread bumped I experience a related sensation, fear of discovering that Christopher C. Hibnall is making more lamentable episodes of doctor who

(yes I know there is a specific thread for the terrible new series)

Fury animation is pretty fun I suppose, makes at least one fairly significant directorial choice that changes the tone of the episode. It's a fairly boilerplate base under siege at heart, whose reputation has been enhanced by not existing, and to be honest it diminishes Victoria considerably - literally reducing her to a screamer. Her departure is telegraphed from the about ep 2 but very sensitively handled with a focus on it being her choice and nobody elses.

one fairly significant directorial choice that changes the tone of the episode

I'm up for a spoiler*

*listened to the Tom Baker-narrated cassette 18 years ago, retain no firm conception of the tone to have spoiled


a fairly boilerplate base under siege at heart

all the Troughton reanimations should probably come with a 65-minute cutdown version tbh

Near the start of ep5 there is a lengthy comedy turn where Pat learns to fly a helicopter where he's doing it and is crap at it. Gary Russell has decided to turn this into a dramatic sequence where The Doctor takes brilliant evasive action to avoid giant seaweed tentacles coming out of the water.

Other notable changes are Oak & Quill losing the comedy edge they start out with, and the ESGO guy who works the comms station is inexplicably in a motorised wheelchair which makes a mess of his scene in ep6 when he doesn't turn on the Victoria Machine.

The telesnaps recon is on disc 3 and rattles along nicely, probably just about the right length.

Gary Russell has decided to turn this into a dramatic sequence ... Other notable changes are...losing the comedy edge

Story checks out.

To be fair to him he admits it on the doc about the animation.

I actually enjoy most of Torchwood, despite my current dislike of Chas Hibernia.

Yay

On Monday November 9th the book we'll be discussing is Doctor Who and the Brain of Morbius by the amazing Terrance Dicks - and we'll also be considering his adaptations of novels by Dickens, Charlotte Brontë, H.G. Wells et al for the BBC's Classic Serial. So...

— Backlisted Podcast (@BacklistedPod) September 30, 2020

iirc despite taking his name off the broadcast due to Holmes' rewriting, Dicks adapted the television version closely rather than restoring his original?

Yes, it doesn't restore Sad Disney Robot or any of those parts of the non-Bland plot.

dunno much about the details, I just had the book first and don't remember being startled by any differences when I saw the episodes

Sydney Newman, the BBC drama head who commissioned Dr Who from his own brief in 1963, interviewed during the transmission of Time & The Rani:

In September 1987, Sidney Newman discussed with me his views on the recent series of Doctor Who and its producer. They were not complimentary. @doctorwho1980s pic.twitter.com/VzDAQW3Ust

— Aramaic and Old Interlace (@AramInterlace) October 24, 2020

AT LAST

https://i.imgur.com/zqV0TZU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iMsC9dJ.jpg

To be adapted into a 12-disc set by Big Finish next year, no doubt.

Big Finish can only get the rights to boring old official Dr Who, they WISH they had the commercial drawing power of picture books based on the 2009 Australian K-9 TV series, or over seventy POD novels featuring the early adventures of Alistair Lethbridge-Stewart and his modern descendents

K9 has legs now?

2009

I have four K9 picture books from the 1980s written by David “Dave” Martin and they are quite good fun. For some reason they are one of the bits of childhood Who tat that I have found hardest to chuck out.

I have this
https://murdersville.co.uk/museum/wp-content/gallery/dr-who-1979/dr-who-annual-1979-2.JPG
(which I got in 1979, sigh)

I had and fondly recall those staple-bound 1980s K9 books too

Unrelated – a fun recent Moffat interview where he’s not talking about the usual stuff

https://www.tvcream.co.uk/podcasts/tv-cream-stays-indoors/tv-cream-stays-indoors-with-steven-moffat/

That was fun, thanks - so charming to hear him think through various aspects of The Prisoner as a viewer, and from a creative standpoint, AND to be genuinely interested enough in other people to keep asking the interviewer's perspective.

Haven't listened yet, but just learnt that Stacey Abrams is a Dr Who fan, who was interviewed by Tennant on his own podcast. (rss link)

I’ve liked all of the newest regenerations since its return (some more than others), but Tom Baker remains the one Doctor to rule them all. https://t.co/S9BJlf3BF9

— Stacey Abrams (@staceyabrams) February 8, 2019

There was a Husbands of River Song tweetalong today, with the director digging out a bunch of behind-the-scenes photos, and:

Here’s a reference you might not expect - Morecambe and Wise for scale for Hydroflax. #HelloSweetie pic.twitter.com/PjxDPtkFtD

— Douglas Mackinnon (@drmuig) November 7, 2020

https://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/3rd-7.jpg

That "full cast" must have required some extensive grave-robbing.