GIRLS talk (the Lena Dunham thread)

a lot of ppl also perversely like watching/commenting on things they dislike or that irk them, like, A LOT so that's a p good premise for a tv show tbh

from everything i've seen lena seems unsure herself to what extent the sexual relationships her character engages in are degrading/problematic (in one interview she says something like that she thinks the character will snap with anger at the way she is abused by the end of the season), sex-positive (she says that the character is completely choosing what is happening, there is no coercion, 'i did enjoy it!' etc), or something in between (and in that Bruni piece she notes that tension in the way the second sex scene was shot and Apatow says, 'you look like you're being murdered'). there's nothing wrong with that tension, and afaik it's the most interesting thing about the show, but also it seems like ppl feel ambiguous about that being at the center of discussion re the show?

obv it's a little unfair to try to break all this stuff down after one episode - and a pilot no less - it does seem a little early to really start putting pressure on that dynamic, but it also seems like the text of the show and i kinda wish ppl would discuss it more but maybe it's too personal a thing to talk about? (in particular, i wish everyone who has said that they relate the most to those scenes would discuss that more and explain exactly how, etc, but maybe that's asking too much)

sorry if this is one note of me - lol - but it's kinda the only part of the show i found interesting

it's funny to watch people go "i can't believe we're talking this much about this after only one episode!" and then keep posting about it. it's ok, guys, people talk about pilots, it's allowed.

although obviously there are some things (especially character development for the supporting cast) that it's not fair to critique the show on this early, etc.

personally i feel like sex-positive v. degrading is a naive and inadequate frame for talking about young women's sexual experiences.

i got that from your previous posts, but i didn't get what the better frame for discussing it is

slocki, normal people don't "review" shows, they decide whether or not it's worth their time based on their interests and lifstyle. you're allowed to crack jokes about getting enough of this shit at work.

― da croupier, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:00 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's true tho that ppl actually DO like watching shows about themselves

you know there's a difference between a prof and an undergrad, right

personally i feel like sex-positive v. degrading is a naive and inadequate frame for talking about young women's sexual experiences.

― horseshoe, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:14 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it def bothers me how any sexual experience that isnt like 100%-upbeat and happy and perfect is framed as being such a dark thing

also feel like dunham has been pretty clear on this point? that she's had loving sexual experiences and anxiety-producing ones and that even the anxiety-producing ones she entered into by choice. i don't know that i'm seeing the ambiguity. unless you mean bell's point, that given the long tradition of how women's bodies are represented and sometimes punished onscreen, Girls runs the risk of participating in that tradition even if dunham's intentions are otherwise.

you know there's a difference between a prof and an undergrad, right

― da croupier, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:16 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i actually forget the difference, something about where they stand in the room?

lena says in the salon interview that i quoted above that she thinks men will come away from that scene asking themselves if they've been rapey in the past. that's not a not-100%-upbeat and happy and perfect sexual experience, or just an anxiety-producing one.

like, a guy threatening implicitly that he might not use a condom during sex, or initiating anal sex without asking for permission first -- these are rapey things! you can't just handwave it away as less than perfect sex. that's crazy!

and to lena's credit, she obv realizes that and intends that reaction. i don't understand ppl on this thread though trying to downplay it

you know there's a difference between a prof and an undergrad, right

― da croupier, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:16 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i actually forget the difference, something about where they stand in the room?

― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, April 20, 2012 12:16 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

one of them is a jaded hateful shell of a person, the other has sexual experiences both positive and negative

to me those sex scenes in tiny furniture and the Girls pilot are welcome in part because i feel like there's very little realistic sex from a woman's point of view in movies and TV. maybe that's obvious, but anyway.

xp i think her point was more...men freak out about this because they want to believe they're great lovers.

and to lena's credit, she obv realizes that and intends that reaction. i don't understand ppl on this thread though trying to downplay it

― Mordy, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:18 PM (50 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i'm not trying to downplay it, i'm glad it's being represented as something people go through and react to in different ways

yeah, what s1ocki said

this is one of the conversations that the show seems to elicit that i'm glad is happening

i think the fact that she doesn't freak out is what makes some ppl think the show is really dark, or cold, or working at a kind of distance, which i dont agree with

like, a guy threatening implicitly that he might not use a condom during sex, or initiating anal sex without asking for permission first -- these are rapey things! you can't just handwave it away as less than perfect sex. that's crazy!

Morday I think both of these things are a lot more common than you realize. You said you want to hear personal experiences - fine. I've experienced both of these thing with more than one guy. Neither are uncommon at all, sadly.

I think louie is a very anarchist friendly sitcom, we should ask HOOS for other recommends.
Monty python one assumes

E otm

i think the fact that she doesn't freak out is what makes some ppl think the show is really dark, or cold, or working at a kind of distance, which i dont agree with

― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, April 20, 2012 12:23 PM (56 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is an intersting point!

See also the extremely thoughtful and popular pushing down the girl's head move. These are things that some dude's do and a lot of women, especially younger women who want desperately to be liked or may be scared or any number of other things, will experience these and go along with them and not realize they're as wrong as they are because that's sort of what we're conditioned to do.

sexuality is complicated, huh

i mean, i think that's behind bruni's response. which to me is just odd, like thinking dunham is being really mean by having her female characters say mean things about their own bodies or having men say mean things about their bodies. i don't know, to me those responses are like, what world do you live in?

xxp to s10cki

who would have thought?

x-post

there's something about the polarity of relationships here but idk what to say about it exactly. the pecs mcanal hookup dude is portrayed with all of these asshole signifiers, but after having terrible sex with him [lena] is clearly really into him and wants more out of him. [williams kid]'s boyfriend is a sweetheart niceguy drip and she can't stand him.

i don't want to bring j. batman into this but...

i think the fact that she doesn't freak out is what makes some ppl think the show is really dark, or cold, or working at a kind of distance, which i dont agree with

she did demand he quit the anal talk and that made me like the character more. like when she told her parents she didn't want to see them after they cut her off, it implied she had some self-respect and that we weren't in full-on Solondz-land. Though I want to be clear I'm talking about "likable" in the context of a half-hour sitcom that wants me to watch it weekly, not likability in the sense of real-life reactions to male aggression.

said asst prof also noted that she found the scenes where everyone is hanging out and no one really likes anyone there were hella throwback unpleasant to immediate post college days when you spend time in a room simply because this is what's happening, not because you want to. like your lack of social training means that you find yourself acting in ways that aren't really reflective of who you really are or want to be but simply passive with moments of confusion and demands for appreciation of your deep thoughts and meaningful self
ilx works in a similar way

yes, one thing i like about the scene is that she's quick and articulate abuot what she doesn't want sexually in that moment. i also like that later she's less forceful and more unsure, going along with him being sort of dismissively like, sure i'll text you.

there's something about the polarity of relationships here but idk what to say about it exactly. the pecs mcanal hookup dude is portrayed with all of these asshole signifiers, but after having terrible sex with him [lena] is clearly really into him and wants more out of him. [williams kid]'s boyfriend is a sweetheart niceguy drip and she can't stand him.

i don't want to bring j. batman into this but...

― goole, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:27 PM (59 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

heh, theres a kind of notorious scene in the 2nd or 3rd episode where this dynamic is further explored, i havent actually seen it but its been discussed on-line

meanness + darkness are pretty loaded words, but when we talk about a show reproducing faithfully a common experience women have where they are pressured into doing things, or accepting things, wrt sex, that is fairly dark. i believe that the wire faithfully depicted things that i found disturbing and that i think one could call dark, and there was a lot in the wire that i'd consider misanthropic and even nihilistic - that the implicit critique might have been 'this is horrible' but that it was also 'this is hopeless.' i don't think it's unfair to suggest there's something similar at play here.

a kind of notorious scene in the 2nd or 3rd episode

well unless hbo puts the whole thing on utub i'll never know

omg pecs mcanal

i got an intern applying who was hella aggressive even after i let him know all positions filled who kept writing these semi-nonsensical reality show styled multi-paragraph letters about how deeply he appreciated the opportunity and how perfect this job was for him and he ended the last email that I finally determined that it was best not to respond to with "my interest continues to be valid" which seemed like a good summing up of the GIRLS philosophy too

i don't want to bring j. batman into this butt...

the wire is not nihilistic and neither is Girls fwiw

partly discussed in q5 of this interview, spoilers i guess

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/10/dunham_girls_sex_scares_men/singleton/

many xposts:

again my cynical side really doubts that most men identify themselves with male characters or reflect on those scenes and wonder if they have made women uncomfortable, or done something non-consensual. because the nature of dudes who do that kind of thing are not typically the kind of people who challenge themselves. it would be great if it did spark awareness but i'm just highly sceptical. it's really not a criticism of the show but of maleness/culture. it's not a single television show's responsibility to tear down something so complex and deeply entrenched and it IS interesting that it is starting a dialogue by showing it in a different way. (though i wonder exactly *how* different it really is given the amount of pornography that features humiliation/degredation). i agree with mordy that it should be a bigger part of the discourse about this show, for sure.

the wire is not nihilistic and neither is Girls fwiw

nihilistic is definitely the wrong word, and i chose it poorly

fair enough. i didn't mean to be minimizing what a dick the dude she has sex with in the pilot was being, to joke about not using a condom and to try to initiate a sexual act he knew from previous experience she wasn't into. it's just that i think those experiences are pretty common. which sucks.

i don't think i've ever suggested it was rare. i've not personally experienced it, though, which might account for some of my reaction.

friend just pointed out that the issue with a show as concerned with verisimilitude as this one is: you forget that it's a comedy and not everything is serious or totally real. pecs mcanal is her version of Mr. Big and that's part of the gag. that he's mega gross is meant to be funny as he is a not-so-far-from-the-truth version of men available in that age/location/privilege bracket

horseshoe has the higher-level discussion PoV all sewn up here, Imma let her stay on that. But I can back up E that the disrespectful/casual treatment of women by their sex partners is completely par for the course. It would be nice if we always got up and left when we should, but we don't because that attitude is COMPLETELY NORMAL and you could date and sleep with people for YEARS and have it always be kind of like that, or not completely UNLIKE that. And unless you have really good models in your life or your levels of self-protection are higher than most people's, you pretty much just go with it. I have. And not in the distant past, either.

we all totally know people who would talk about NEVER BE A SLAVE TO THE SYSTEM while cashing gramma rent checks
"are you still doing that play"
"no"
"why"
"fuck that guy, he's a dick"
^had this conversation like eighty times my first year in nyc

that exchange really made me laugh.