itt WOLF HALL the book by hilary mantel and the upcoming hbo/bbc miniseries based on the same

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really dug this book, thought there was a thread about it, guess not, anyway, excited for this

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bbc-hbo-team-wolf-hall-263566

max, Friday, 18 November 2011 16:17 (ten years ago) link

im intrigued, tell me more

the jazz zinger (s1ocki), Friday, 18 November 2011 16:20 (ten years ago) link

The book jacket featured at the link is a total mess.

calumerio, Friday, 18 November 2011 16:26 (ten years ago) link

*loses interest*

the jazz zinger (s1ocki), Friday, 18 November 2011 16:27 (ten years ago) link

really good historical fiction about thomas cromwell

max, Friday, 18 November 2011 16:51 (ten years ago) link

done right would be like the tudors but good

max, Friday, 18 November 2011 16:53 (ten years ago) link

whoa. the book is fantastic (place of greater safety, about the terror in paris, is also good but not nearly as good as wolf hall). i am stoked for the sequel but mantel has been very ill and in and out of hospital for quite some time. i didn't realize it actually had a publication date set.

the main character is a total fantasy - brilliant, world-wise, badass, a family man, and happens to be completely enlightened vis-a-vis the warped values of his society. so this should be huge.

UK cover

Brakhage, Friday, 18 November 2011 18:11 (ten years ago) link

four months pass...

this book kicks ass!

goole, Sunday, 1 April 2012 03:32 (nine years ago) link

man, nothing?

i think the language is really great. really fluid and choppy, and the present tense really jarring; i still am not used to it. the time and scene shifts are very cinematic i think. mantel has a great ear for dialogue.

i looked up most of the principals on wikipedia and now have an idea of who gets the chop. so now the dramatic question as a reader is when the book ends! (is it a spoiler if it happened 500 years ago?)

idk if the main character is a "total fantasy"? i mean the basic details of his climb: "ruffian", soldier, lawyer, trader, adviser, burgess, etc, are all a matter of record. and the early modern/reformation period was full of people with ideas on the "warped values of his society"!

goole, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 21:28 (nine years ago) link

hey man! knew you would dig this, i dont really have anything smart to say about it, but it ruled

max, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 21:31 (nine years ago) link

i only know this history in the most basic outline. uhhh, king wants a divorce, break with rome happens, england gets protestantism but not like super-protestantism, and that's it.

yeah i'm really impressed so far!

took me a bit to get used to one of mantel's stylistic choices: unless very obviously noted as someone else, the pronoun "he" is always Thomas Cromwell.

also i'm realizing that knowing this is going to be an HBO joint has put a certain look of things in my mind.

goole, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 21:42 (nine years ago) link

yeah i had this kind of half-baked notion about the way mantel uses "he" and the rise of the subject, cromwell as first modern man or something, but i dont really remember the book well enough

max, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 21:48 (nine years ago) link

one month passes...

i thought this was really fun, i liked how unabashed and romantic it was, am not really looking forward to the tv show tho

Lamp, Saturday, 19 May 2012 15:03 (nine years ago) link

Anyone read the sequel yet? I'm waiting on a copy from interlibrary loan.

Respectfully, Tyrese Gibson (Nicole), Saturday, 19 May 2012 15:19 (nine years ago) link

im about 30 pages into it and so far it seems very much the same

Lamp, Saturday, 19 May 2012 15:22 (nine years ago) link

oh good, i need to pick that up. i started reading WH all over again, cos it took me a while to adjust to the style and keep everyone straight, there's things i didn't pick up on the first time. the dialogue is so much fun, really tight, really revealing.

his son is such a dunce but so amiable and lovable. everything with mary boleyn is so heartbreaking.

there's something going on about motivation, the intersection of desire, the 'inner life' and ideology at the moment of formation -- all that stuff about protestantism and capital was being made during the course of these events. cromwell doesn't seem to know himself. iirc there are moments where he asks why he's doing all this and he doesn't really know, "what else is there but affairs?"

Lamp what do you mean by "unabashed and romantic"?

goole, Saturday, 19 May 2012 15:54 (nine years ago) link

two weeks pass...

this book is incredible

lag∞n, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:12 (nine years ago) link

Am reading A Place of Greater Safety, the schtick is v v similar. Still great.

Jesu swept (ledge), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:39 (nine years ago) link

this is a cool way to learn abt history

lag∞n, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:40 (nine years ago) link

I held onto this book for about a year from the library but couldn't get past the first page -- not that I outright hated it or anything, more just, "Hm, well, maybe later." Then someone just recalled it from me so...maybe later.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 15:24 (nine years ago) link

I'm actually reading APoGS with a book on the french revolution in the other hand, to clarify as i go. It's not essential but it's a pretty big sweep of history, helps to have a bit of background knowledge. Don't think that was so much of a problem with Wolf Hall, sure I occasionally forgot who was who in the vast cast but the main plot was pretty specific & localised.

Jesu swept (ledge), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 16:10 (nine years ago) link

wikipedia.org

lag∞n, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 16:14 (nine years ago) link

yeah yeah. i wanted more detail. fewer electrons.

Jesu swept (ledge), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 16:16 (nine years ago) link

one month passes...

ok bring up the bodies is in my possession

lag∞n, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 13:19 (nine years ago) link

gotta finish this

funny-skrillex-bee_132455836669.gif (s1ocki), Tuesday, 24 July 2012 14:32 (nine years ago) link

i'm waiting for the new one to go into paperback

goole, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 14:34 (nine years ago) link

lagxxn tell me how it is

goole, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 14:34 (nine years ago) link

i wish theyd just put all books in paperback, hardcover is stupid

max, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 14:36 (nine years ago) link

^^^^

heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 24 July 2012 14:36 (nine years ago) link

ya i cant recall the last time i bought a hardcover but i could not wait

lag∞n, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 14:56 (nine years ago) link

hardcovers are awesome yr both dummies

Lamp, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 14:57 (nine years ago) link

but they r so giant and expensive

lag∞n, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 14:57 (nine years ago) link

impossible to read on the train

max, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 14:58 (nine years ago) link

impossible to read because the words are so hard

lag∞n, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 14:59 (nine years ago) link

hardcovers are great except when you move house twice in a month

thomp, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:05 (nine years ago) link

Hardcovers are great for architecture, art, and history books. P much useless for contemporary fiction though.

heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:08 (nine years ago) link

that p much makes no sense

Mr. Que, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:09 (nine years ago) link

i like reading them on the train! paperbacks are too flimsy or perhaps i am just careless and rough but i like the reassuring weight of a hardcover novel in my bag as well, they are less fun to take on planes tho, too big.

i think 'bringing up the bodies' was really good but i always like the parts in stories where the hero has everything going p smoothly and is coming out on top and you can feel the sympathetic flush of success the defining sequence of the book i think is cromwell at home over christmas endlessly cajoling, directing, scheming, joking moving all these people into place with tireless good humor ceding his dead daughters wings to some other little girl, waiting

Lamp, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:10 (nine years ago) link

man i can't wait

goole, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:12 (nine years ago) link

the dialogue is just amazing in the first one. all his conversations with his sweet, dim (but not too dim) son are so funny and awkward

goole, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:14 (nine years ago) link

hardcovers of popular books very cheap thru' Amazon 2nd hand, got almost pristine Wolf Hall recently for <£3, will maybe read it come holiday.

woof, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:14 (nine years ago) link

that p much makes no sense

Why not? I like hardcover books when they have lots of gorgeous pictures to look at and are typically formatted larger, I don't think they are necessary for most fiction. But thats just my personal preference. FWIW, 98% of the fiction I read it in eBook format anyway.

heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:17 (nine years ago) link

gross

Lamp, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:28 (nine years ago) link

i think 'bringing up the bodies' was really good but i always like the parts in stories where the hero has everything going p smoothly and is coming out on top and you can feel the sympathetic flush of success

― Lamp, Tuesday, July 24, 2012 11:10 AM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol when more and gardiner where simultaneously marginalized i was so happy for him

lag∞n, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:30 (nine years ago) link

i had a few physical correspondences that i couldn't shake

cromwell: al swearingen
anne: sasha grey
henry: tim tebow (older)

goole, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:31 (nine years ago) link

lmao oh no

lag∞n, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:32 (nine years ago) link

yeah i know

goole, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:33 (nine years ago) link

ahhhhhhh hahahahaha

max, Tuesday, 24 July 2012 15:37 (nine years ago) link

new one seem to be written in a somewhat simpler lighter mode, maybe to reflect cromwells ascension, or maybe by accident, or maybe im imagining it, anyway im gonna miss this guy when there are no more books left

lag∞n, Monday, 30 July 2012 16:35 (nine years ago) link

the dialogue is so sharp that it can distract from her scene-setting and description, which is also incredible.

ooga booga-ing for the bourgeoisie (voodoo chili), Friday, 6 March 2020 23:19 (one year ago) link

my copy is in the mail, let's gooooo

ooga booga-ing for the bourgeoisie (voodoo chili), Monday, 9 March 2020 18:46 (one year ago) link

if I read A Place of Greater Safety will I get very weepy about Robespierre

As you should.

Load up your rubber wallets (Tom D.), Monday, 9 March 2020 19:15 (one year ago) link

I didn't realise she lived in Budleigh Salterton. I've been there a fair bit in the last few years and I'm gutted I've not seen her - headscarfed, summoning spirits on a windy headland.

I stayed a week there on holiday in the mid-90s, still amused whenever I think of the name, so English.

frederik b. godt (jim in vancouver), Monday, 9 March 2020 19:28 (one year ago) link

copped today, finishing up WH and bodies again, wolf hall is the best novel of the 21st century so far no joke

adam, Tuesday, 10 March 2020 18:57 (one year ago) link

when's the paperback out

conrad, Tuesday, 10 March 2020 19:36 (one year ago) link

two weeks pass...

grateful im not quarantining in the tower

ooga booga-ing for the bourgeoisie (voodoo chili), Monday, 30 March 2020 19:50 (one year ago) link

No spoilers but Tom Truth's Love poetry is hilarious.

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Monday, 30 March 2020 21:14 (one year ago) link

you know, i reread the first couple of these in a couple days each and i am just dragging in the third

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Saturday, 4 April 2020 03:58 (one year ago) link

WOW

Just finished

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Saturday, 4 April 2020 06:47 (one year ago) link

I'm about 2/5 through and I would like to talk about editing. I *think* I'll eventually fall on the side of immersion being everything and who's to say what should and shouldn't be present and the more time I get to spend with this consciousness the better - particularly given, y'know, the end and everything - but I still think it's a conversation to be had. Not that I'd be the one to tell her.

And this is about as tangential as possible, and it might just have been the sun, but reading TMatL today I suddenly got a flashback of Paul Morley's amazing and weird review of Patrick Wolf.

He falls in love with exactly who he wants to fall in love with.
He falls in love. With love, and then what happens, and then who knows.
He falls in.
He falls.
He.

Watch him work, play and etc in a video you might come across. He.

Permits you to watch. He. Studies himself. He. Is assembling himself right in front of you. He. Smashes his way through limited judgements of taste. He. Is detached from everything including detachment. He. Is in rude health. He. Is looking in a mirror. He. Is looking out of a mirror. He. Studies you. He. Is constantly touring. He. Screams lust and heartache into listeners ears. He. May yet shock the masses. He. Has not been brought to your attention by accident.

Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Sunday, 5 April 2020 21:54 (one year ago) link

i am also about two-fifths of the way through and have opinions, most of which are at least tangent to editing

-- were this not an historical novel you'd immediately go 'oh, you have at least two or three clergymen too many .. and does every noble who's angry at cromwell need to have so many nieces?'
-- a lot of this is putting pieces in play that need to be in play later, though (my grasp on this bit of history being wholly nugatory) a lot of this has only become apparent to me after googling. i made a list of the five or six big things that are going to happen, and how norfolk and the church figures and risley are relevant to them, and reading is a little less stressful now that i'm not going 'why do i need to know who latimer is again' every time that name shows up
-- there's a bit too much of people reminding each other of things they'd know. 'my late cardinal and stephen gardiner, who was his secretary at the time, you remember.' that sort of thing.
-- a few too many reveries, memories, etc in general
-- the first half of wolf hall, where these are a structural device to get through a lack of chronological momentum, works better than the rest of the trilogy (unless it suddenly reaches a new height in the back half of this one.) it felt like it had the benefit of a lot of revision, reworking, thought; the rest of it feels a bit written in public, sometimes the castings back to events of previous volumes do feel like they're grasping for something no longer in the author's reach or remit since published.

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Sunday, 5 April 2020 23:39 (one year ago) link

Jane Seymour’s personality a bit of a casualty to the latter process

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Sunday, 5 April 2020 23:41 (one year ago) link

Yes to most of that - albeit filleting out the 'nieces problem' would take away half of Mantel's fun. (I rambled on somewhere else that she's essentially a misanthrope but also an insatiable gossip - that and her belief in the proximal nature of the spirit world are what drive her as a novelist.) I think the overall issue is momentum: as the books have progressed, the horizon of possibility inevitably shrinks and so the narrative loses its verticality and becomes literally more horizontal. When it was kicking off with the papists in the north, I thought 'finally, some action!' but even this mostly happened off-stage.

I am still thoroughly enjoying myself, though.

Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 10:03 (one year ago) link

she’s not interested in battles, she skipped them entirely in place of greater safety

fauci wally (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 13:14 (one year ago) link

I'm not particularly interested either - it was more a comment on the narrative needing some room to breathe (while being hyper-aware that claustrophobia/immersion is part of the fabric of the series).

Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Tuesday, 7 April 2020 16:33 (one year ago) link

I did enjoy, in Greater Safety, that when Danton goes out of Paris on mission he’s just absent from the narrative. or during the .. i forget what it’s called, the night of the seizing of the Tuileries ... the narrative is shut up in a bedroom while people go out and fight on the streets

When it was kicking off with the papists in the north, I thought 'finally, some action!' but even this mostly happened off-stage.

i made a list of six things that had to happen in this book before cromwell’s seizure and execution. the first one was the revolt in the north. the second happened in the following section. at page 569, finally, the third thing is happening. three things, now, have happened.

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 01:08 (one year ago) link

I did enjoy, in Greater Safety, that when Danton goes out of Paris on mission he’s just absent from the narrative. or during the .. i forget what it’s called, the night of the seizing of the Tuileries ... the narrative is shut up in a bedroom while people go out and fight on the streets

When it was kicking off with the papists in the north, I thought 'finally, some action!' but even this mostly happened off-stage.

i made a list of six things that had to happen in this book before cromwell’s seizure and execution. the first one was the revolt in the north. the second happened in the following section. at page 569, finally, the third thing is happening. three things, now, have happened.

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 01:08 (one year ago) link

wish i had this on kindle so i could more easily annotate all the mirrors and lights that show up without diminishing the resale value. it would also have been easier to carry on the plane

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 01:18 (one year ago) link

the title phrase shows up in Cromwell flattering Henry (“the mirror and the light of all other princes”, which I’m sure I’ve heard before, but where) (I was surprised to find out that Mantel didn’t invent Danton’s last words, they seemed so entirely of the version of the character she drew: I guess she started from there and worked backward.)

but the words have shown up in many places before, paired and unpaired. later Cromwell goes riding with his son,

the sun a perfect crimson orb above the line of the downs. The sky has become a mirror, against which the sun moves: light without shadow, like the light at the beginning of the world.

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 01:23 (one year ago) link

-- the visions of the english countryside, often in the imaginations of the characters rather than the diegesis of the novel, a key counterweight to the unremitting claustrophobia
-- the equation of henry's physical body with that of his body as king with that of his country
-- how this fits in with the recurring lollard / lutheran / anglican reassessment of the sacrament, the idea of christ's body in the mass; miirc the catholic answer to 'why doesn't the host taste like human flesh, then' is something like: why do you think your phenomenal perception of the world has any bearing on what the host might be in the noumenal world?

thomas cromwell's double bind in the books is that in trying to intil an anti-transcendental faith in england he gets caught up more and more in a transcendetal idea of kingship, perhaps. i'm not sure how i feel about this, it feels a bit of a glib reduction.

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 01:33 (one year ago) link

(one note i wish i'd taken: when cromwell thinks of st. paul's letter to the corinthians, does he use the word 'mirror'? or 'glass', as in tyndale?)

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 01:35 (one year ago) link

Oh, it's the end of 3.1, leading up to:

Even in the republic of virtue you need a man who will shovel up the shit, and somewhere it is written that Cromwell is his name.

I believe I have caught Mantel in an error, ahem, or she's just using the more familiar version because why not: "through a glass darkly," Cromwell thinks, but this post-dates him; in Tyndale it's "in a glass, even in a dark speaking". Yes, I did look that up.

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Wednesday, 8 April 2020 01:41 (one year ago) link

I think that BBC4 are repeating the TV WOLF HALL soon.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 8 April 2020 16:05 (one year ago) link

I have finished. I need to let it settle.

I am glad to be free of Hilary's clutches.

Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Thursday, 9 April 2020 17:08 (one year ago) link

Until you read them all over again in a blur some fine summer week

silby, Thursday, 9 April 2020 17:37 (one year ago) link

i don’t know ultimately how much of this needed to exist. how much what turns into a blow by blow account could make sense of a career wrecked in the end almost by happenstance. that said the last section, predictably, wrecked me

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Friday, 10 April 2020 07:42 (one year ago) link

and so much ringing the changes on the same organising metaphors: mirrors; lights; books; cats--perhaps Mantel is playing the same kind of game as Javier Marias or, on a very different level, Karl Ove Knausgaard. Or perhaps it's just lazy! I'm honestly not sure.

When the light goes out, so to speak, it's heartbreaking, particularly in the light of the last epigram attached to the text, and the bit of Wyatt serving as an alternative to it, in the last couple of pages.

Anyway. Here's some books and a mirror:

Her visit marks her place in the book of his life -- a book which falls back into loose leaves. Printers can read as if through a mirror. It is their trade. Their fingers are nimble and their eye keen. But examine any book and you will see that some characters are upside down, some transposed.

Later, Cromwell is looking at a history in which the dates for events before Christ's birth are printed, deliberately, upside-down.

And somewhat later, but before everything collapses:

Can you make a new England? You can write a new story. You can write new texts and destroy the old ones, set the torn leaves of Duns Scotus sailing about the quadrangles, and place the gospels in every church. You can write on England, but what was written before keeps showing through, inscribed on the rocks and carried on floodwater, surfacing from the deep cold wells. It's not just the saints and martyrs who claim the country, it's those who came before them: the dwarves dug into ditches, the sprites who sing on the breeze, the demons bricked into culverts and buried under bridges; the bones under your floor. You cannot tax them or count them. They have lasted ten thousand years and ten thousand before that. They are not easily dispossessed by farmers with fresh leases and law clerks who adduce proof of title. They bubble out of the ground, wear away the shoreline, sow weeds among the crops and erode the workings of mines.

And later:

The king wonders aloud, what shall we do when knights of the Garter are found to be traitors--men like Nicholas Carew? Certainly their names should be stricken from the volumes that contain the history of the order. But will that not mar the beauty of the pages?

The decision is that the disgraced name should remain. But the words 'VAH! PRODITUR' should be written in the margin, so the man is branded for ever.

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Friday, 10 April 2020 08:04 (one year ago) link

The end very much wrecked me, too - proper heaving sobs. I'm a sentimental fucker and these are tough times but still.

Agreed on the metaphors. I feel like I'm missing something with the cat in the tree and the leopard.

Also, give me five minutes in a room with Gardiner. Just five.

Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Friday, 10 April 2020 09:00 (one year ago) link

i tried to watch the series and i couldn't get over my immediate conception that the director had 'the thick of it' in the back of their head throughout

the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Saturday, 11 April 2020 00:37 (one year ago) link

eight months pass...

got M&L for wobs as requested, already 74 pages in lol (turned bedside reading light off at 3)

i: love love love being back in this world, a matter of HM's tone and flow as much as the actual story i think (since i find it calming despite the matter being distressing) (sometimes i have trhe show on in the background while i read bcz its music now has the same effect)
ii: not rereading the thread yet -- the main upcoming events of course arrive some 600 yrs pre-spoilered obv but still i want to toy with it all at my own speed as it arrive
iii: already i've run across several speech-things that book-cromwell has in his armoury that i now hear entirely in a rylance-cadence (so it's entertaining when TC self-describes and it's the holbein-depicted body, squat and bulky, not MR'S = small and slight)
iv: noting production-wise that some material in the show so far is from *this* book early on not the last one: i'm guessing HR isn't copying from script to future book GRRMartin-style so the TV ppl presumably had sight of versions of M&L long pre-pub? (i mean i know it;s based on a historical tale but these are micro-details not in the history books)

mark s, Saturday, 26 December 2020 11:50 (one year ago) link

four months pass...

entirely predictably i am reading them all from the beginning again (3/4s thru WH again, once again picking up a lot that i missed, so much is foreshadowed from the start)

confusing to spot jane seymour in the episode of peaky blinders i watched on wed

mark s, Friday, 30 April 2021 20:56 (eight months ago) link

re-read of wolf hall itself nearly complete

this is my third time through it and it's actively to me curious how different it feels this time (i think i noterd above that my very first read was largely a stress-distraction read… but the second wasn't!)

for example how much of TC's stream of consciousness is subtly horny fascination with women who end up other ppl's wives lol (jane seymour and mary boleyn the most obvious, but the lowborn viz rafe's future wife also, ellen or helen barre, and two or maybe even three others of less note) (ie i dont remember their names)

plus the penumbra of gossip set around this fact -- which is arguably one of the things that eventually undoes him (his supposed eye on princess mary, or hers on him). builds up also to the funny confusion-plotline abt the woman who becomes gregory's wife = jane seymour's sister (who for a couple of pages in tM&tL belives TC is proposing to her)

plenty of nudging already at mirrors and lights, especially the latter -- have to assume this had already formed in HM's head as a shaping metaphor (not that i quite understand it) -- plus also the curious vehemence whenever the jester sexton aka patch is on-stage, cromwell HAAAAAATES him lol, and keeps bumrushing him angrily (and then like half a book later patch is back and TC is saying "what the hell is HE doing here?")

(this hatred is explicable in story-terms, in that patch once work for for wolsey and chose to mock his former employer once he was part of the king's staff, but it's also very extra and in no sense plot-driving: i'm going to argue that the low-born patch who is allowed to say anything acts as a MIRROR for cromwell, throwing unwanted LIGHT on his own self-disgust blah blah… )

mark s, Saturday, 8 May 2021 13:29 (eight months ago) link

three months pass...

finally reading The Mirror & The Light
srsly, just inject this prose into my veins i love it it makes me feel slightly giddy & dreamy.
is that weird?

still wild to me that she can make me feel remotely sympathetic towards Mary or even fkn Henry at times, such is the power of fiction

also the FOOD and TEXTILES in this series my god

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 September 2021 04:15 (four months ago) link

(i just finished rereading tM&tL and have a low-key query: has it anywhere been discussed -- or has HM talked abt -- that she plainly devoured thomas harris at some point and certain very identifiable bits re-emerge = wound man, a version of the memory palace, plus also some less easily identifiable moves and tropes now and then)

the notion that TC is in reality the hannibal of the tudors is quite funny to me

mark s, Thursday, 2 September 2021 10:40 (four months ago) link

i googled this and found a review of "bring up the bodies" which explicitly argues that her love of the historically horrible thomas cromwell is exactly like our love of the finctionaly evil hannibal lecter -- and it was in the evening standard so she very likely also saw it, and (in my theory) went off to read hannibal and clearly liked some of what she read

(i actually think the ES review is dumb but that's not really the point here)

mark s, Thursday, 2 September 2021 10:45 (four months ago) link

Heh, confounded TC and ES into EC and thought I was back onto another Elvis Costello thread.

Gwar ina Babyon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 2 September 2021 11:13 (four months ago) link

Surely somewhere in his enormous corpus he has mentioned Cromwell and/or Lecter at least once perhaps in one of his party/list songs.

Gwar ina Babyon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 2 September 2021 11:17 (four months ago) link

a version of the memory palace

This is not exclusive to harris, cf. john crowley's 'little, big' and the aegypt books where it gets traced back to Giordano Bruno, he and it have also cropped up in other things I've read recently that I can't recall (oh the irony). Harris I daresay the most famous though.

Believe me, grow a lemon tree. (ledge), Thursday, 2 September 2021 11:33 (four months ago) link

Pretty sure it's from Cicero

Robert Cray-Cray (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 2 September 2021 11:48 (four months ago) link

I started WH some weeks ago and have read two books in between since. I need some headspace, I think.

kinder, Thursday, 2 September 2021 12:24 (four months ago) link

it's not exclusive to harris no -- i learnt it as "kim's game" from my dad when i was little, so named bcz there's a v basic version in kipling's kim -- but the idea that it's viscerally pertinent to the building of character is more how i responded here (in kim it's just a handy technique that a spy can deploy)

mark s, Thursday, 2 September 2021 12:58 (four months ago) link

Mantel's prose style is what turns me off reading these; I've tried many times. It's frustrating! People seem to really enjoy them but I must grudgingly say it is Not For Me. I find myself unable to sink into the story because the sentences draw so much attention to themselves. Feature not bug, perhaps?

Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 2 September 2021 14:09 (four months ago) link

I find her a great writer.

the pinefox, Thursday, 2 September 2021 14:16 (four months ago) link

(i just started a place of greater safety., meeting robespierre etc as children, camille desmoulin is a cheeky sod in this reading)

mark s, Thursday, 2 September 2021 14:28 (four months ago) link

Greater Safety is beautiful

Clara Lemlich stan account (silby), Thursday, 2 September 2021 15:56 (four months ago) link

xposts

to be fair, it did take me a while to start Mirror & the Light — every time I picked it up it felt too dense for what my brain could handle at the time

but I had recently been watching stuff about Mary 1 and other Tudory things & that helped get me in the right frame of kind

so i do understand if it feels like its too much

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 September 2021 16:23 (four months ago) link

*mind

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 2 September 2021 16:23 (four months ago) link

The only one that's really stuck with me was Wolf Hall. Bring Up The Bodies felt too short, and The Mirror & The Light too long. Need to re-read all three one of these years.

but also fuck you (unperson), Thursday, 2 September 2021 16:26 (four months ago) link

four months pass...

Watching now. Need to read the books to see how they handle Cromwell's stubborn silences, according to the show his favorite weapon.

lukas, Friday, 14 January 2022 02:48 (five days ago) link


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