John Cassavetes - C or D

Letigre- What's Your Take on Cassavete's

sorry, it's a song also asking whether Cassavete's is clasic or dudd. Haven't seen his films so i cant comment but he inspires good songs.

someone didn't see that.

DVD Planet is the current winner at $81.22 w/ free shipping.

I was thinking about reviving this today. I've never seen any of Cassavetes films and I'm a little scared off by the 'actorly' tag/mythos. I associate Method-y stuff with Sean Penn overacting, are Cassavetes films good or bad in that regard?

A lot of people are unloading their original issue Cassavetes' DVDs so you may be able to find one on the cheap ($10) which may be a more conversative investment.

"shadows" is a curiosity for itself, it got a bit old, but steel is very good.

Just got Opening Night. I better like it or else.

uh oh.

"faces" is probably my all-time favorite, i think shadows is VERY VERY good though, and the datedness of some of the performances just makes it more fascinating by my lights

can't remember who said it or even the exact quote, it may have been peter falk, saying that everyone thought cassavetes' movies were improvised but he says "are you kidding? there's no way i could think up lines like that - no, every line was written"

i believe that's true for "shadows" as well, and the title at the beginning (or end?) saying "THIS ENTIRE MOVIE WAS IMPROVISED" was actually a p.r. stunt

i find absolutely nothing "actorly" about any of his movies, which is surprising given his sometimes abhorrent working methods

(i.e. slapping people when they weren't "angry" enough!)

bits of Faces excepted, I haven't liked any one of his films; I know he wrote scripts, but he indulged his actors, refusing to curb their mannerisms. Those running times are brutal too.

"i believe that's true for "shadows" as well, and the title at the beginning (or end?) saying "THIS ENTIRE MOVIE WAS IMPROVISED" was actually a p.r. stunt"

haha right - I saw a back-to-back screening of "Shadows" and "Faces" a couple of months ago. The line about improvisations was right at the end. I didn't know whether to believe it or not, as I simply don't know about how improvising makes it onto films and how you could identify such a thing -- I'd think of seeing something really raw, something that could annoy an audience, perhaps. In that sense, nothing in "Shadows" fit that, unlike the beginning of "Faces", which I really loved, though I had to really stick with it after that opening.

What's that song at the end of "Faces", it ws really perfect wasn't it?

woman under the influence is one of my fav movies - gena rowlands is so scary good in it

just scary to me.

that too

one more vote for Faces. I liked that one. I think I saw a couple of others like ten years ago that didn't really make an impression - other than "wow, this is kind of annoying."

I do want to see Husbands. Is that the only one of his films in which he also starred.

I can prob Google that.

I used to have a giant Faces poster that I got in Paris during a Cassavetes revival. I think over time I started liking the poster more than the actual movie.

im surprised hes not getting more ilx luv here

ILX hates faked improv.

I'll know after tonight whether I think that Cassavetes ever got a good performance from his wife; to me her best work is still in Another Woman.

Tracer OTM about the, uh, non-actorly-ness of Cassavetes films (although I guess I prefer his later films to his earlier ones where the 'improv' is foregrounded). The workshop element seems to lie much more in pacing and story-logic than the kind of mannerisms Alfred mentions.

Opening Night is my fav Cassavetes, and his best with Gena Rowlands. Minnie and Moskowitz rates a close second.

The brutal running times is the only thing that keeps me from going back to my 5 Films collection more, but everytime I do the naturalism (from actors and equally the look of the films) pulls me right back in.

A Woman is still my fave, but obviously I'm gonna have to rep for Ben Gazzara's character in killing of a chinese bookie.

I've only seen two: Killing of a Chinese Bookie (which was GREAT) and Gloria (which was AWFUL). never understood where his rep comes from.

the other good ones?

never seen minnie and moskowitz, big trouble's okay, gloria's pretty obnoxious, otherwise yes yes yes

"never seen minnie and moskowitz"

my fave cassavetes movie.made in the (better)period of his genre movies,this is the "romantic comedy" one.

LOVE STREAMS, GUYS

Love Streams: Not on DVD (officially), barely +0rren+able. It's been 3 weeks, seeders!

don't sleep on minnie and moskowitz, everyone.

MIKEY & NICKY. Elaine shoulda been around more often

So far out of the 5 disc box set, I've watched 'A Woman Under' and 'The Killing of a Chinese Bookie'. I loved both movies, but really The Killing was amazing and so odd. What kind of a strip bar was that, those skits?? When he leaves the casino with the girls, which I wasn't expecting it to look as it did either, I almost cried. I was moved by this movie in such a unexpected way. Which of the remaining films should I watch next? Shadows? Faces? Opening Night?

We don't discuss his acting much. Edge of the City has a first-rate performance by Sidney Poitier (loose, laughing and casual like never before or since) and a weirdly moving one by Cassavetes. As dock workers who become best friends, they have real chemistry, and Macho Man of All Macho Men Cassavetes plays it like he's got a crush on him; he certainly cares more about Poitier than the girl Poitier sets him up with.

i think minnie and moskowitz is a really special, magical film. wish it was held in better regard. also his son stole a lot of it for the notebook!

Trying to to reconcile the first and last halves of that post.

he stole it from a notebook -- presto!

ok i was being hyperbolic when i said he "stole" a lot of it, but in a way the notebook can be looked at as the story of john and gena and so can m & m.

Saw Gloria for the first time, beautiful 35mm print (intro'd by the guy who wrote that City on Fire novel). Great Rowlands, and goofy genre wears better than the late-era endless improv stuff of Love Streams et al.

Lots of NYC street scene madeleines from the summer of '79, oh man.

Garth Risk Hallberg suggested after the screening that Gena's squalling 6-year-old co-star could've been an inspiration for the dancing dwarf of Twin Peaks.

http://www.filmlinc.org/page/-/uploads/comment/archives2010/marapr/gloria.png

i do not enjoy gloria.

Haven't seen this one either. Figure its gotta be better than Big Trouble, though.

just saw The Killing of a Chinese Bookie and when I was walking out of the theater I heard some guy say "it was great...I gave up on following the plot, though."

...

entirely fair assessment

sorry, he said "i gave up on trying to follow the plot." dude it's the title of the movie

it was the 108 minute cut... i'd like to see the longer one, what are the differences besides the strip club routines?

i don't know bcz i think i've only seen the extended (original) one.

Andrew Bujalski seems surrealism in Opening Night

https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/5876-john-cassavetes-underrated-surrealist

i watched "minnie & moskowitz" having never seen another cassevetes(-directed) movie before. i think i enjoyed it but also had one of those "the past is a foreign country" things that i sometimes have with '70s independent movies where not only are the decor and fashion and street scenes so different from how things are now, the people don't behave or talk like any person i've ever met. from what i know about cassavetes movies, the constant yelling and anger and fucked-up relationships seem to be more about him than about actual human behavior, i'm guessing? anyways, the acting was all good, i loved the bit with timothy carey accosting cassel in the diner near the beginning and the monologue by the loser who takes gena on the lunch date, and the scene near the end with the two moms was funny.

I think two things are simultaneously true: 1. people talked differently in the '70s and 2. the way people confront each other and the general rhythm of human interactions in Cassavetes films is very much a product of JC's imagination.

That Dick Cavett Show segment when he goes on to promote Husbands with Gazzara and Falk seems to me like JC attempting to bring a little of his movie reality into actual reality (or whatever you call a TV talk show). And the results are kind of awkward.

I just noticed Mazursky's Tempest in on Criterion.. I might check it out tonite, it's been years since I've seen it

Haven't seen M&M yet (soon), but I did just watch Martin Ritt's Edge of the City, with JC and Sidney Poitier in a mildly homoerotic spin on On the Waterfront. On Criterion til the end of the month, and recommended.

Tempest is a time capsule, man.

the constant yelling

That just overwhelmed everything else in Minnie & Moskowitz for me--if there was anything good in there, it was drowned out by the constant yelling.

The constant yelling in M&M vs the constant laughing in Faces

Well, Tempest was a bloated, aimless mess but still a pretty fun watch. I thought I'd seen it before and remembered it all being on the Greek island, but at least half of it is in NYC and Atlantic City. Acting is great, but as a romantic comedy it fails on both fronts, so I'm not sure how to classify it.
A film that cost $13 million and did $5 million at the box office, and you can see why.

there was almost as much yelling as laughing in Faces

and no acting

:)

I prefer Bugs Bunny’s performance of “I Dream of Jeannie with the Light Brown Hair.”

Go watch Deathdream if you'd like to see the lead husband + wife play husband + wife in a much better movie.

I thought Shadows and Too Late Blues were really interesting snapshots of the late 50s-early 60s. but have not been sure I've liked Cassavetes’ films in general

thought Husbands was a real improvement in cinematography from his earlier films, but there is just so much toxic masculinity in it that it is repulsive to me

“You’re inscrutable!”

I think I'd find those characters just as exhausting if they were having an enlightened discussion on The Female Eunuch.

from the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually still alive:

Saw a Happy Birthday Mom from Zoe Cassavetes on Twitter recently, and lo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gena_Rowlands Didn't know she was active that long, or that she was in 10 of John's movies (or possibly problematic re some of them later)

― dow, Sunday, June 20, 2021 3:33 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

was thinking of her anyway, having seen her four Alfred Hitchcock performances, one on Presents, three on Hour.

― dow, Sunday, June 20, 2021 Wonder if she did any harm w changes in those JC prints? I always enjoy her acting anyway.

even A Woman Under the Influence was hard going

Minnie and Moskowitz falls a little short of being among my very favourite Cassavetes films, but it may be his funniest.

Machine Gun McCain - Cassavettes, Falk and Rowlands cashing those sweet sweet paychecks for an Italian director (the guy who did Sacco & Vanzetti, so most likely a paycheck job for him as well.) Still, the scenes filmed in Las Vegas have a tourist's eagerness to capture everything - you get to see billboards advertising who was in town at the time - and the Morricone score is reliably excellent.

from the wiki bio of Gena I linked above---wonder if her alleged interference makes significant difference in those extant editions:
Cassavetes era (1963–1984)
Rowlands and Cassavetes made ten films together: A Child Is Waiting (1963), Faces (1968), Machine Gun McCain (1969), Minnie and Moskowitz (1971), A Woman Under the Influence (1974; nomination for Academy Award for Best Actress), Two-Minute Warning (1976), Opening Night (1977), Gloria (1980; nomination for Academy Award for Best Actress), Tempest (1982), and Love Streams (1984).[11]

According to Boston University film scholar Ray Carney, Rowlands sought to suppress an early version of Cassavetes's first film, Shadows, that Carney says he rediscovered after decades of searching.[12] Rowlands also became involved in the screenings of Husbands and Love Streams, according to Carney. The UCLA Film and Television Archive mounted a restoration of Husbands, as it was pruned down (without Cassavetes's consent, and in violation of his contract) by Columbia Pictures several months after its release, in an attempt to restore as much of the removed content as possible. At Rowlands's request, UCLA created an alternative print with almost ten minutes of content edited out, as Rowlands felt that these scenes were in poor taste. The alternative print is the only one that has been made available for rental.[13]

even in the alternative print I thought a lot of scenes in Husbands were in poor taste

watched The Killing of a Chinese Bookie today

from Pillip Lopate’s Criterion essay 8 years ago:

“In 1976, when The Killing of a Chinese Bookie was first released, it bombed at the box office, much to Cassavetes’s disappointment. Critics found it disorganized, self-indulgent, and unfathomable; audiences took their word for it and stayed away. Today, the film seems a model of narrative clarity and lucidity; either our eyes have caught up to Cassavetes or the reigning aesthetic has evolved steadily in the direction of his personal cinematic style. Now we are more accustomed to hanging out and listening in on the comic banality of low-life small talk; to a semidocumentary, handheld-camera, ambient-sound approach; to morally divided or not entirely sympathetic characters, dollops of “dead time,” and subversions of traditional genre expectations.”

I don’t know about it being a model of narrative clarity and lucidity, and it is very rough and somewhat off-putting like all of his films, but I thought it was interesting.

looking back on all of the films of his I've seen in the past year or so, Opening Night had the theatricality and some of the toxic male aura of his other films, but it softened his edges somewhat and was funny and memorable

My-favorite.

I watched A Child is Waiting on TCM three nights ago. What a stiff, compromised, often affecting film.

A Stanley Kramer Production!

A Stanley Kramer Interference!

"This is in-canon for the Cassavetes Cinematic Universe."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ktf6w-pCE

Wow, that dance just keeps on going, doesn't it

that's nuts.. also the Easter Bunny cops a feel on Adrienne Barbeau

A welcome reprieve from Marty Allen no doubt

"... but some people can't dance.. because they're handicapped."

that would never fly today

^^Trump would say it.

i've never read any books by or about JC; is ray carney's "cassavetes on cassavetes" a good place to start? any other book recs welcome

also i missed that gena rowlands passed last month :(

Gena Rowlands sits next to Bette Davis, Isabelle Adjani and Fatma Mohamed, in my pantheon of the greatest actors. I been watching a lot of Cassavetes these past two weeks, he’s terrific. I saw them all when I was young but I’m enjoying them even more as an adult