EZRA KLEIN v MATT YGLESIAS

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Poll Results

OptionVotes
EZRA KLIEN 9
MATT YGLESIAS 7


ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:41 (ten years ago) link

feel like ezra is a more likable and otm but matt is a deeper thinker so i dunno

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:43 (ten years ago) link

yglesias has been annoying the fucc out of me

max, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:44 (ten years ago) link

strikes me as the kind of guy who would have been a member of 'the best and brightest' or whatever

max, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:45 (ten years ago) link

yeah thats his exact flaw, i mean he supported the iraq war via absurd over thinking, still i have to admit he has influenced my thinking on such topics as urban planning and destroying the senate

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:48 (ten years ago) link

i dumped yg from my read a while ago. i guess that's sort of 'mcnabb off my madden team' but there u go. mainstream dem-liberal technocrats aren't thin on the ground and he's a shitty writer imo. i still 'like' him i guess but i stopped enjoying his writing like at all.

however i do get into quasi-arguments about urban planning fairly frequently (and no not just on ilx) and i find myself mimicking yglesian points

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:50 (ten years ago) link

who has better trolls?

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:51 (ten years ago) link

i feel like yglesias is still sort of confused by irl

max, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:51 (ten years ago) link

"from my reader" i mean

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:51 (ten years ago) link

i must admit the truly sad number of typos were a big part of me ignoring his blog.

plus i figure the shit he talks about is so everywhere that other ppl will link to him if it's really worth it (see also: andrew sullivan)

both of these guys are nearly worthless on culture

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:53 (ten years ago) link

they used to live in a house with dave weigel and spencer ackerman, bet it was a terrible place to hang out

max, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:55 (ten years ago) link

haa i find the typos charming because a. its p 'internet' b. i am myself as you all know a masterful typo maker

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:55 (ten years ago) link

see i figured you as an accomplished and rigorous stylist whereas our think tank opinion leader is just fucking lazy and/or dyslexic

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:58 (ten years ago) link

shouldnt this be in ILM

Princess TamTam, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:59 (ten years ago) link

they used to live in a house with dave weigel and spencer ackerman, bet it was a terrible place to hang out

― max, Monday, January 3, 2011 12:55 PM (28 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

that there is an offline culture of young dc bloggers and i know abt it is simultaneously fascinating and horrifying, although i was unaware of this particular amazing roommates based nugget, would love to run into these guys at a bbq and get into a drunken political argument

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 17:59 (ten years ago) link

see i figured you as an accomplished and rigorous stylist whereas our think tank opinion leader is just fucking lazy and/or dyslexic

― goole, Monday, January 3, 2011 12:58 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ty 4 yr support

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:00 (ten years ago) link

ackerman talks about that time the most; i did not know weigel was one of them. feel a little weird for knowing about this crap tbh.

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:01 (ten years ago) link

i dont really read attackerman, his shtick grates

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:02 (ten years ago) link

he's done with FDL if that helps

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:03 (ten years ago) link

i dunno if i've come clean about this but i have a war-nerd streak so

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:03 (ten years ago) link

ackerman talks about that time the most; i did not know weigel was one of them. feel a little weird for knowing about this crap tbh.

― goole, Monday, January 3, 2011 1:01 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

me too but on the other hand did u know that ezra klein became a health care reform expert to impress simon schamas daughter chloe

max, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:04 (ten years ago) link

no i was unaware. she must be pretty fine.

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:05 (ten years ago) link

i think i find the stuff he covers interesting, but i guess i dont really, i read him occasionally at wired xp re ackerman

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:06 (ten years ago) link

lol max whatre u talkin abt

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:06 (ten years ago) link

haha i have been under the impression that i knew a lot of gossip abt these ppl but now that i am thinking about it the thing about chloe schama is the only gossip-y nugget i know, kind of disappointed in myself

max, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:07 (ten years ago) link

http://grab.by/8b5N

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:07 (ten years ago) link

anyway when i saw ezra klein on tv i was surprised his persona seemed more journalistic glory days upstart young reporter than coddled nerdface technocratic blogger - i liked him

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:15 (ten years ago) link

he has an early 80s newspaper look and feel to him

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:16 (ten years ago) link

Yglesias has been wrong many times.

Gus Van Sotosyn (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 3 January 2011 18:34 (ten years ago) link

Klein meanwhile is a duller writer but his steady crunching of numbers is ultimately educational.

Gus Van Sotosyn (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 3 January 2011 18:34 (ten years ago) link

yglesiases willingness to be ambitious and wrong is imo what makes him compelling - like i understand theres danger in utopian thinking but still reimagining the world and its institutions is def one of my hobbies

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 18:47 (ten years ago) link

who has better trolls?

― goole, Monday, January 3, 2011 11:51 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

to answer my own q, i don't really know. klein's comments are pretty boring but i have noticed yglesias' "community" to be especially vicious and repetitive. neither of them seem to really care much but i think both have made gestures to get more involved. terrible drudgery, sounds like, to me.

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:01 (ten years ago) link

as far as blogger gossip goes, can anyone verify that there are, in fact, paid trolls out there? i'd hate to think it was mere dedication causing the same people to say the same things in the same place every day

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:03 (ten years ago) link

theres only one blog i can think of that has good comments, really feel like 'comments off' should be the default

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:04 (ten years ago) link

TNC i assume?

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:05 (ten years ago) link

your bløg has good comments joe

max, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:05 (ten years ago) link

yah tnc and lol of course goes w/o saying my blog

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:06 (ten years ago) link

btw how much does this trolling gig pay, who do i contact

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:06 (ten years ago) link

i know, right

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:06 (ten years ago) link

i saw an interview w/yglesias where he was like all my readers really hate me i have no idea why they come to my blog

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:09 (ten years ago) link

he was k funny tbh

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:09 (ten years ago) link

eh i've watched a few of his bloggingheads's and he comes off like a jerk imo, interrupting, going on and on

goole, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:17 (ten years ago) link

ha yeah ive never been able to bring myself to watch a blogginghead and in general id much rather read than watch any news type thing but for some reason i saw this it was a friendly interview at a like blogg convention where they we just joking around

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:23 (ten years ago) link

anyway my head says klein but my heart goes yglesias, not sure what to do, prob follow my heart

ice cr?m, Monday, 3 January 2011 19:25 (ten years ago) link

yglesias is good on urban issues - not that he says anything new, but at least he's talking to relatively wide audience. but still...super annoying on a personal level. I like klein.

iatee, Monday, 3 January 2011 20:11 (ten years ago) link

Yglesias is a philosophy major in every word he writes and this is awesome about him.

Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 3 January 2011 20:46 (ten years ago) link

ugh this is gonna be like that week i read glenn greenwald isnt it

plax (ico), Monday, 3 January 2011 21:39 (ten years ago) link

neither of these guys is much like glenn greenwald

fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Monday, 3 January 2011 22:20 (ten years ago) link

unless you have some sort of distaste for american journalists, then yes it'll be like that lol

fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Monday, 3 January 2011 22:20 (ten years ago) link

these guys are on the sensible/technocratic side of the great progressive blogger divide - greenwald exists on the polemic/activist shore - which is not to say hes any more or less otm, just that hes harder to take

ice cr?m, Tuesday, 4 January 2011 00:39 (ten years ago) link

one of the flaws in general with interviews, podcasts, and other interesting things is people can come on there are just say whatever they want and the interviewer will nod along and make nodding along noises, like ezra is no different than npr in that its soothing entertainment dressed up as something serious, i say this because very much against my will the other day someone started to tell me about ezra interviewing tyler cowen who they had never heard of, and i guess he was on there pushing some cosmopolitan thing about the joys of travel and encountering different cultures which is all fine and good, but! tyler cowen is an influential political actor one who often has libertarian affixed to his name, so i started telling this person about his shitty defense of big business and various other bad harmful politics and she was like oh that wasnt the impression i got he seems like a nice liberal, i was like well he is very good at chess

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 01:33 (two weeks ago) link

I deliberately avoid the ones with bad ppl like cowen but like the ones with amia srinivasan, adam tooze, maggie nelson ie actual original thinkers have been really good imo

mens rea activist (k3vin k.), Sunday, 10 October 2021 01:55 (two weeks ago) link

your friend who has never heard of tyler cowen may not have absorbed the intricacies of the interview tbf

mens rea activist (k3vin k.), Sunday, 10 October 2021 01:57 (two weeks ago) link

ah yeah the ezra klein interview was probably too intricate

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 02:04 (two weeks ago) link

that shor guy is such an obvious fraud my sophisticated computer projections 12 years out into the future that tell me that democrats should run on popular things and by that i mean target swing voters lmao, i mean god bless ezra for pushing back a little bit i guess but it was funny to see twitter described as the dem echo chamber because it is very much not! in fact the dem establishment is quite obviously being exposed to ideas that disturb them on twitter, as evidenced by attempting to blame defund the police, a position which effectively zero dem politicians have endorsed blamed for future electoral failures

the real dem establishment shines through the article in its unexamined assumptions about the primacy of above all else targeted messaging in winning elections, that the point of winning elections is to win more elections, and of course total lack of refection on the actual governing democrats do and how that might contribute to how people feel about them, i mean if this guy were just a campaign worker talking to other campaign workers fine but the dem establishment and many rank and file dem hobbyists very much have 24/7 campaign worker brain

another kind of funny tell that shor is processing washington consensus through algorithms is the total absence of the big recent novel trend in the polling, which is of course the huge generational divide! the likes of which weve not seen since before we started tracking that sort of thing

ezras momentary grappling with the intricacies of class was pretty painful too, his conclusion that if you are a white millionaire who drives a pickup truck you are the same as a poor white guy who also has a pickup truck because you both voted for trump i think is prob pretty much liberal consensus, shows how alienated our politics are from any real class analysis, which is of course super fine with powerful people across the political spectrum

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 02:20 (two weeks ago) link

i do agree that hillary would have won if she had gotten strongly behind even just one popular policy, like if instead of saying that economists favor raising the minimum wage to $12 she had run around the country saying fuck it you all deserve $15 an hour, and not just because its a popular galvanizing policy but because it wouldve shown that she was capable of standing for anything at all, but of course she was not

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 02:29 (two weeks ago) link

also interesting that the consensus around obamas big win has become that he was simply incredibly talented, the fact that he ran on HOPE and CHANGE is maybe too painful to reflect upon

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 02:33 (two weeks ago) link

wait I feel like i agree with all the stuff you just said but also am not sure how it pertains to ezra klein

mens rea activist (k3vin k.), Sunday, 10 October 2021 02:41 (two weeks ago) link

hes one of them man, lol occurs to me hes kind of the david brooks of centrists

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 02:59 (two weeks ago) link

yglesias is bill kristol

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 03:03 (two weeks ago) link

ahhh lmao ilx undefeated

https://i.imgur.com/6ngjErV.png

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 03:23 (two weeks ago) link

hes one of them man, lol occurs to me hes kind of the david brooks of centrists

― lag∞n, Saturday, October 9, 2021 9:59 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I guess I thought that David Brooks was the David Brooks of centrists.

I think Klein is temperamentally similar to someone like Brooks or an NPR commentator or whatever. He seems to place a virtue on seeming reasonable and open-minded, and he occasionally invites someone on the podcast with whom he disagrees politically but believes is making their arguments in good faith (like Ross Douthat or, indeed, Tyler Cowen, whose libertarianism was pointedly brought up and critiqued by Klein on the podcast, so I don't know how much your friend was actually paying attention).

Politically, however, he feels to me more simpatico with Jamelle Bouie or Brian Beutler or the folks writing for The New Republic these days. He's fundamentally earnest, so he's not going to take on the sarcastic edge of someone like Alex Pareene, but with that earnestness comes a streak of righteous anger and moral clarity about certain issues, like expanding the social-welfare state and strengthening democracy.

At the end of the day, he's someone who is paid handsomely to pontificate for the New York Times, so I get that he may come across as a foppish establishment type. But that's not really the impression I get from engaging with his work, at least over the past few years.

jaymc, Sunday, 10 October 2021 04:51 (two weeks ago) link

imo klein is pretty clearly to the right of the new republic staff which isnt to say there isnt some overlap in views, i think also hes fundamentally a technocrat, but we live in interesting times where even technocrats maybe be moved to moral indignation, i wont hold my breath for yglesias (sociopathy)

also brooks is most certainly a conservative, but hes a conservative for centrists, which is to say his job is to apologize for republican horrors

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 15:40 (two weeks ago) link

also brooks is most certainly a conservative, but hes a conservative for centrists, which is to say his job is to apologize for republican horrors

otm

Klein is most certainly a technocrat first, and even when he argues in good faith he can't help sounding like a pundit for whom the risk of enacting social policies benefiting the people who don't read him scares him more than explaining over tweets or podcast how these policies would look.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 10 October 2021 15:46 (two weeks ago) link

wish we could have a safe space wonk thread where we could talk abt pollsters and bloggers without fear of bullying from lag∞n :P

flopson, Sunday, 10 October 2021 16:23 (two weeks ago) link

1. i have no problem with polling or blogging, in fact i like both

2. lack of bullying is one of the things that has allowed technocracy to flourish, something is deeply wrong with a society where mathew yglesias has such elevated self esteem

3. if you started a technocrat thread i would probably never find it

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 16:29 (two weeks ago) link

i for one only read these revives if lag00n is involved in them

Linda and Jodie Rocco (map), Sunday, 10 October 2021 16:41 (two weeks ago) link

xp- milo and julio would find it tho

flopson, Sunday, 10 October 2021 16:43 (two weeks ago) link

since i did start this thread i feel i have a duty to patrol it

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 16:43 (two weeks ago) link

another kind of funny tell that shor is processing washington consensus through algorithms is the total absence of the big recent novel trend in the polling, which is of course the huge generational divide! the likes of which weve not seen since before we started tracking that sort of thing

that's the core of his argument actually. young white people disproportional shifted to the left in the last 5 years relative to any other demographic group -> those ppl are disproportionately dem staffers and disproportionately live in liberal cities (where their votes weigh zero at the margin in the senate) -> democrats increasingly out of touch on which issues are popular

flopson, Sunday, 10 October 2021 17:20 (two weeks ago) link

idk i just read the ezra article and it didnt mention the generation gap, also its not just white yuppies who have shifted left its true across races, geographies etc; feel like pollsters have gotten so used to slicing and dicing for soccer moms and whatnot theyve somehow missed this big ass shift or just dont know how to deal with it cause their models are so overfit

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 17:28 (two weeks ago) link

which is not to say the dem elite arent out of touch but being too liberal is not really their problem lol

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 17:29 (two weeks ago) link

i mean legal weed medicare for all raising the federal minimum wage eliminating the filibuster are all popular things that are considered insanely leftist by at least a good chunk of the dem establishment

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 17:32 (two weeks ago) link

his argument is basically that politicians should talk more about popular economic policy stuff but try to avoid talking about social issues and immigration. in one interview i read with him he said the reason bernie did so well in 2016 was because he ran economic populist and socially moderate (iirc he also said bernie would have won in that interview lol). which was the inverse of hilary's priority in talking points, shifting to the left on social issues while staying moderate on economics

imo a good criticisms of popularism is that, on some level hilary clinton's team were doing exactly what it prescribes: polling and focus-grouping every issue and prioritizing things that polled well. the problem is (1) their polls were subject to the same non-response bias that made all polls so inaccurate in 2016, and (2) they were plagued by her life-time of earnest shilling unpopular policies. a recording of hillary saying "My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders" to a room full of bankers leaked in october 2016. you can't find any recording or bernie ever saying anything like that

flopson, Sunday, 10 October 2021 19:12 (two weeks ago) link

This cleaving of "issues" into "political" and "social" remains the commentariat's most grievous sin. Fuck them.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 10 October 2021 19:15 (two weeks ago) link

i mean i was just being reductive by grouping them that way to make analogy to 2016, there are unpopular 'economic' talking points and popular 'social' issues ones. but the popularist idea is that you talk about the popular ones and not the unpopular ones

flopson, Sunday, 10 October 2021 19:19 (two weeks ago) link

oh to be clear flopson I wasn't attacking you; it's the way these choads think.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 10 October 2021 19:21 (two weeks ago) link

no worries, just wanted to clarify the pt i was making didn't really hinge on the distinction. because you can dis-aggregate issues and messages beyond that (admittedly dubious) binary

flopson, Sunday, 10 October 2021 19:30 (two weeks ago) link

the thing this guys needs to understand is the reason dems dont do popular economic things is because they dont want to

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 21:58 (two weeks ago) link

Is this being presented as an either/or? Because couldn't you easily have both? pic.twitter.com/pnByQX0FVx

— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) October 10, 2021

lag∞n, Sunday, 10 October 2021 21:59 (two weeks ago) link

wow @ that shor tweet

Tracer Hand, Sunday, 10 October 2021 22:16 (two weeks ago) link

Better dead than red

St. Twel'mo, or the Cuneiform Cyclopedist of Chattanooga (President Keyes), Monday, 11 October 2021 03:15 (two weeks ago) link

more like david whore (for us imperialism)

Linda and Jodie Rocco (map), Monday, 11 October 2021 14:37 (two weeks ago) link

So people are still doing the parentheses, huh

St. Twel'mo, or the Cuneiform Cyclopedist of Chattanooga (President Keyes), Monday, 11 October 2021 14:42 (two weeks ago) link

the thing this guys needs to understand is the reason dems dont do popular economic things is because they dont want to

― lag∞n, Sunday, October 10, 2021 5:58 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

i would like to add and they dont care about winning

lag∞n, Monday, 11 October 2021 14:45 (two weeks ago) link

right so the evidence here is that the polls showed people were content and didn't want much to change throughout the period between 1979 and 2021 https://t.co/lr1nAQPez0

— 'Weird Alex' Pareene (@pareene) October 12, 2021

certified juice therapist (harbl), Tuesday, 12 October 2021 13:51 (two weeks ago) link

73 to 90 percent of people answered the phone and told a stranger that things were going ok

certified juice therapist (harbl), Tuesday, 12 October 2021 13:52 (two weeks ago) link

"How's it going?"

"Uh, okay."

"Thanks for your input!"

St. Twel'mo, or the Cuneiform Cyclopedist of Chattanooga (President Keyes), Tuesday, 12 October 2021 14:22 (two weeks ago) link

love to use a poll about peoples personal lives to make some sort of... point?

lag∞n, Tuesday, 12 October 2021 14:22 (two weeks ago) link

if Matthew Yglesias called to ask me a question for a poll I'd hang up and call the NSA.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 12 October 2021 14:26 (two weeks ago) link

i know there are ppl here who like him but over and over he shows himself to be incompetent and i don't get it. i mean there are reliable statistics available that indicate whether things are or are not going well for people, that would not require them to respond to a survey. many people who are not doing well in a material sense might also say they don't want things to change, and there are interesting things to be said about this phenomenon but nah, people are just "contented" and "change averse." it's their nature as americans, couldn't be that it's a very common way of handling immiseration.

certified juice therapist (harbl), Tuesday, 12 October 2021 15:17 (two weeks ago) link

he is so lazy ive read a couple of his substacks and i really just couldnt believe what i was seeing, good work if you can get it i guess

lag∞n, Tuesday, 12 October 2021 15:19 (two weeks ago) link

one billion americans, though. who else is thinking that big

mookieproof, Tuesday, 12 October 2021 15:25 (two weeks ago) link

me, check this out: two billion americans

lag∞n, Tuesday, 12 October 2021 15:27 (two weeks ago) link

spitting at the sight of this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FClY0nsXMAcZufL?format=jpg&name=large

lag∞n, Tuesday, 26 October 2021 00:17 (twelve hours ago) link

what?

— Sir Loin of Beef (@SotoAlfred) October 25, 2021

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 26 October 2021 00:18 (twelve hours ago) link

Waiting for a politician to have a Soulja Boy moment

Chappies banging dustbin lids together (President Keyes), Tuesday, 26 October 2021 02:13 (ten hours ago) link

in these challenging times for our nation im calling upon president biden to step up and superman that hoe

lag∞n, Tuesday, 26 October 2021 02:32 (nine hours ago) link

lol

mens rea activist (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 26 October 2021 03:26 (eight hours ago) link


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