EZRA KLEIN v MATT YGLESIAS

feel like ezra is a more likable and otm but matt is a deeper thinker so i dunno

yglesias has been annoying the fucc out of me

strikes me as the kind of guy who would have been a member of 'the best and brightest' or whatever

yeah thats his exact flaw, i mean he supported the iraq war via absurd over thinking, still i have to admit he has influenced my thinking on such topics as urban planning and destroying the senate

i dumped yg from my read a while ago. i guess that's sort of 'mcnabb off my madden team' but there u go. mainstream dem-liberal technocrats aren't thin on the ground and he's a shitty writer imo. i still 'like' him i guess but i stopped enjoying his writing like at all.

however i do get into quasi-arguments about urban planning fairly frequently (and no not just on ilx) and i find myself mimicking yglesian points

who has better trolls?

i feel like yglesias is still sort of confused by irl

"from my reader" i mean

i must admit the truly sad number of typos were a big part of me ignoring his blog.

plus i figure the shit he talks about is so everywhere that other ppl will link to him if it's really worth it (see also: andrew sullivan)

both of these guys are nearly worthless on culture

they used to live in a house with dave weigel and spencer ackerman, bet it was a terrible place to hang out

haa i find the typos charming because a. its p 'internet' b. i am myself as you all know a masterful typo maker

see i figured you as an accomplished and rigorous stylist whereas our think tank opinion leader is just fucking lazy and/or dyslexic

shouldnt this be in ILM

they used to live in a house with dave weigel and spencer ackerman, bet it was a terrible place to hang out

― max, Monday, January 3, 2011 12:55 PM (28 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

that there is an offline culture of young dc bloggers and i know abt it is simultaneously fascinating and horrifying, although i was unaware of this particular amazing roommates based nugget, would love to run into these guys at a bbq and get into a drunken political argument

see i figured you as an accomplished and rigorous stylist whereas our think tank opinion leader is just fucking lazy and/or dyslexic

― goole, Monday, January 3, 2011 12:58 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ty 4 yr support

ackerman talks about that time the most; i did not know weigel was one of them. feel a little weird for knowing about this crap tbh.

i dont really read attackerman, his shtick grates

he's done with FDL if that helps

i dunno if i've come clean about this but i have a war-nerd streak so

ackerman talks about that time the most; i did not know weigel was one of them. feel a little weird for knowing about this crap tbh.

― goole, Monday, January 3, 2011 1:01 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

me too but on the other hand did u know that ezra klein became a health care reform expert to impress simon schamas daughter chloe

no i was unaware. she must be pretty fine.

i think i find the stuff he covers interesting, but i guess i dont really, i read him occasionally at wired xp re ackerman

lol max whatre u talkin abt

haha i have been under the impression that i knew a lot of gossip abt these ppl but now that i am thinking about it the thing about chloe schama is the only gossip-y nugget i know, kind of disappointed in myself

http://grab.by/8b5N

anyway when i saw ezra klein on tv i was surprised his persona seemed more journalistic glory days upstart young reporter than coddled nerdface technocratic blogger - i liked him

he has an early 80s newspaper look and feel to him

Yglesias has been wrong many times.

Klein meanwhile is a duller writer but his steady crunching of numbers is ultimately educational.

yglesiases willingness to be ambitious and wrong is imo what makes him compelling - like i understand theres danger in utopian thinking but still reimagining the world and its institutions is def one of my hobbies

who has better trolls?

― goole, Monday, January 3, 2011 11:51 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

to answer my own q, i don't really know. klein's comments are pretty boring but i have noticed yglesias' "community" to be especially vicious and repetitive. neither of them seem to really care much but i think both have made gestures to get more involved. terrible drudgery, sounds like, to me.

as far as blogger gossip goes, can anyone verify that there are, in fact, paid trolls out there? i'd hate to think it was mere dedication causing the same people to say the same things in the same place every day

theres only one blog i can think of that has good comments, really feel like 'comments off' should be the default

TNC i assume?

your bløg has good comments joe

yah tnc and lol of course goes w/o saying my blog

btw how much does this trolling gig pay, who do i contact

i know, right

i saw an interview w/yglesias where he was like all my readers really hate me i have no idea why they come to my blog

he was k funny tbh

eh i've watched a few of his bloggingheads's and he comes off like a jerk imo, interrupting, going on and on

ha yeah ive never been able to bring myself to watch a blogginghead and in general id much rather read than watch any news type thing but for some reason i saw this it was a friendly interview at a like blogg convention where they we just joking around

anyway my head says klein but my heart goes yglesias, not sure what to do, prob follow my heart

yglesias is good on urban issues - not that he says anything new, but at least he's talking to relatively wide audience. but still...super annoying on a personal level. I like klein.

Yglesias is a philosophy major in every word he writes and this is awesome about him.

ugh this is gonna be like that week i read glenn greenwald isnt it

neither of these guys is much like glenn greenwald

unless you have some sort of distaste for american journalists, then yes it'll be like that lol

these guys are on the sensible/technocratic side of the great progressive blogger divide - greenwald exists on the polemic/activist shore - which is not to say hes any more or less otm, just that hes harder to take

You either interview the airport book writers or you read passages from airport books and mock them

The cool thing is you can listen to both

In an airport

or neither

while reading them

Are you guys doing a Printer play

*Pinter

more of an Arthur Hailey novel

k3v how many podcasts do you listen to?

― mookieproof, Thursday, May 9, 2024 1:37 AM (ten hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

ha not very many tbh, and I haven’t listened to one of his pods in prob 6 months or so. I just think lumping him in with obvious hacks is silly…you could argue his version of lib trojan horsing is even more pernicious if anything

i mean in the big scheme of things they arent that different, in the small scheme of coming up in the blogosphere, "founding" vox.com together, and being hacks, sure there are differences i guess thats what the threads about tho

the thing is he’s just obv a lot smarter and more contemplative and curious than those other guys. but again maybe that’s my hang up

hes very contemplative and curious and never ever reaches a conclusion that might threaten his continued employment at the nytimes

hes very contemplative and curious and never ever reaches a conclusion that might threaten his continued employment at the nytimes

― lag∞n, Thursday, 9 May 2024 12:20 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

nah nyt needs klein more than he needs them. he has a huge audience and would bring lots of readers/listeners with him if he left for the atlantic or set up a substack or patreon or whatever. no doubt they’re paying him a fortune but he’d probably make even more if he went solo. yglesias is making seven figures and is much less popular than klein, and there’s no way ezra is making that much from nyt. he’d have both more money and more editorial freedom if he left the times, imo the reason he takes the pay cut is cause he likes having the nyt audience and values the prestige

if anything writing/podding for nyt makes ezra shade his takes left relative to his “true” personal opinions

the nytimes does not need ezra klein lol, and yeah im sure substack would pay him more, but the whole thing about being a good careerist is well thinking about your career, he likes having the nyt audience and values the prestige yeah those are good career things, cashing out via substack is just cashing out but theres no guarantee of that being a lasting way to make money or advance yr career

yglesias is making seven figures

You think??? This is really hard for me to imagine.

Like, from what?

sadly its from people paying to read his newsletter

Now he’s struck gold on the newsletter platform Substack, where at least 13,000 people each pay Matt Yglesias an average of $80 a year for access to his Yglesiasms https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2023/01/11/matt-yglesias-slow-boring-in-bidens-washington/

yglesias is making seven figures

You think??? This is really hard for me to imagine.

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 9 May 2024 3:35 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

last time i saw numbers (which was over a year ago) he had about 13,000 paying subscribers, paying about 110$ per year. i assume he has quite a bit more than that now

cashing out via substack is just cashing out but theres no guarantee of that being a lasting way to make money or advance yr career

― lag∞n, Thursday, 9 May 2024 3:25 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

idk a few years ago i would’ve said it’s a risk but by now it seems pretty sustainable

in a way it’s sweet that you think that klein secretly holds consensus shattering opinions that would get him fired from the nyt but holds back due to financial incentives. i prefer the occam’s razor explanation and think that his writing from the past 15 years is an accurate depiction of his true ideology

in a way it’s sweet that you think that klein secretly holds consensus shattering opinions

― flopson, Thursday, May 9, 2024 3:45 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

first of all suck my dick, thats all actually

damn it’s getting sexual in the ezra and matty thread

its been 0 posts since a good post

i think i got that backward anyway in the american vernacular suck my dick is actually sentiment of aggression not sexuality which i know is kinda weird if youre not familiar with it

lol sorry if my post struck a nerve.. but the idea that financial incentives of writing for the nyt audience are constraining *ezra klein* to be more of a centrist and less critical of power just seems to be based on an outdated model of how this stuff works. it’s not like big legacy media is just shifting around pundits like pawns. klein is an independent and highly successful vector of technocratic centrism. he’s one of the main conduits by which libertarian policy ideas are re-packaged and sold to liberals—that’s why people like tyler cowen love him. from blogging to founding vox, that’s been his ideology for decades, he doesn’t need dean baquet to tell him to write that stuff. and if yglesias is a good counterfactual for what klein would be writing if he were unconstrained by establishment media, klein would be writing much more centrist and aggressive left-punching stuff. you can even see it in the way this thread’s got bumped over the last few years; whenever it’s bumped about yglesias it’s someone mad that he’s written a substack called like “Why Joe Biden Should Moderate On Abortion” or “Now Is A Wonderful Time For Fiscal Austerity”, whereas when it’s bumped about klein it’s k3v or jaymc being like “this podcast where klein interviews michael pollan about the psychic benefits of microdosing lsd and mushrooms is highly elucidating.” nyt refashioning klein into a new ira glass means he’s doing much *less* of the centrist policy writing he used to do. if he weren’t at the nyt most likely he’d be doing more of that stuff

instead of writing snippy media explainers you couldve considered my post in the context of the conversation we were having which was only two posts long and was not that complicated, kevins claim the klein is contemplative and curious doesnt square with his perfect technocrats career is all, thats why his current ideas man phase seems very schticky imho, because if youre truly curious and introspective you will eventually arrive at least a single inconvenient conclusion

it's funny that contemplative and curious people seem to always arrive at the conclusion that supports their preconceived notions and ideology

bunch of wasted effort, inefficient

always important to appear convincingly as something other than what you are though, crucial part of ideology

im not really ideological more of a common sense guy

Let's dig into the data

No, let's never look at data at all because that's too wonky and boring and something something neoliberalism technocracy ideology. The recent episode on drug policy, just for example, was excellent, and gets into the details of what is and isn't working in trying to achieve the very goals I'm guessing posters itt would share, but let's ignore it because neither EK nor his guest called for the end of capitalism and that stuff is boring.

you gotta laugh you know thats just life

https://i.imgur.com/Qf703B0.png

Reading the drug policy transcript, it does in fact seem pretty technocratic wonk-y and doesn't share the right goals IMO.

ie

If what you care about the most was a drop in drug arrests and involvement of people who use drugs and deal drugs in the criminal justice system, then it was a success clearly because there was very little contact anymore between law enforcement and people who sell and deal drugs.

But on the health side, no, I don’t think that. And those statistics on treatment I believe count a lot of one time consultations. I think what most people, particularly people who love someone who has an addiction, are looking for is evidence on people getting better, people getting into recovery, not just at some point having some transitory contact with the system.

Yeah, I don't think that addiction/recovery and 'people who love an addict' (shades of victims' rights ideology) should be a key part of drug policy given the state of law enforcement in the US. They go on to overdoses and fent and such but IMO that just highlights the fundamental flaw of (libertarian) decriminalization over legalization (and regulation). If heroin/coke users had regulated, legal avenues of obtaining their drug of choice fentanyl contamination from powder being cut on the wrong surface is minimized if not eliminated, same with overdoses related to unexpected strength of the product.

Matt Yglesias deleted this heinous tweet so I volunteer to archive it for him pic.twitter.com/BZmLOb7jtF

— Kate Willett (@katewillett) May 12, 2024

Matty revised

US bombing of Vietnam was destructive and morally wrong. But when I tried to look up the long-term impact on economic development, I found this paper arguing that it was smaller than you might think. pic.twitter.com/5Mhc1ebz7i

— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) May 12, 2024

"But"

bombing him wouldnt have much long term impact either

Yeah, I don't think that addiction/recovery and 'people who love an addict' (shades of victims' rights ideology) should be a key part of drug policy given the state of law enforcement in the US. They go on to overdoses and fent and such but IMO that just highlights the fundamental flaw of (libertarian) decriminalization over legalization (and regulation). If heroin/coke users had regulated, legal avenues of obtaining their drug of choice fentanyl contamination from powder being cut on the wrong surface is minimized if not eliminated, same with overdoses related to unexpected strength of the product.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Saturday, May 11, 2024 5:16 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

The guest is very pro legalization with regulation and very critical of libertarian decriminalization. That’s what a lot of the episode is about.

I’m also straining to see the victims rights comparison you are drawing tbh.

A third party's feelings (victims of crime, families of addicts) being used to determine public policy is a poor idea in general.

The guest's references to legalization and regulation consist of weed and the need to regulate dispensaries - his other positive examples are all individual criminalization (if lighter than the mass incarceration regime) but that's okay because they also added more money for rehab. And he's explicitly critical of regulated, legal supply.

One of his statements on that - "But the problem with that reasoning is we did flood communities with legally made, consistent quality, clearly labeled opioids for years. And the net effect was millions of people getting addicted and hundreds of thousands of people dying." - ignores that overdose rates increased when that legally made, consistent supply was withdrawn. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/09/12/us-overdose-deaths-opioid-crisis/) Never mind that actively pushing opioid use (via pill mills) (differs greatly from the existence of regulated supply.)

Matty had the wrong continuation, so I fixed it.

US bombing of Vietnam was destructive and morally wrong. But... it killed hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians, continuing decades after the US lost the war, through unexploded bombs and mines peppered across all three of those nations, with many of them killing children, all of... which had a smaller economic impact than you might think.

xp which is simply to note that when you say that if one just had an open mind toward the Ezraverse one might actually have a lot in common with the former Obama staff wonk of the week, I’m not sure that’s true.

(And that’s ignoring the dumb throwaway line about destroying capitalism.)

Ezraverse

you lost me

Center-Man: Across the Ezraverse

i listened a bit to klein’s piece with “GROWTH AT ANY COST” pethakoukis which presented an infuriating and astonishingly dishonest mischaracterization of the past 50 years of usa economy. i was like out of my body angry at klein’s refusal/inability to address the many primary factors of the fundamentals of changes in it, which results in a slowing of economic growth vs the 50s and 60s. Very accepting of “yeah it’s just suffocating effects of regulatory government” by my quick listen. shit work. he’s writing a book about it now, wtf it better point at waaaay more than that.

Really? I actually got the sense that Klein was disagreeing with him and asking him questions he couldn’t answer that gave the lie to his thesis.

Our goal should be to get to 1b loyal, dynamic Americans this century. https://t.co/dzildfstLM

— @jason (@Jason) May 28, 2024

We should test them, vet them and embrace them deeply.

Help us, neoliberalism, you’re our only hope

I don’t think Biden should shift his rhetoric to start talking down the economy or whatever it is people are now advising — he should issue regulatory waivers and re-write rules in ways that promote lower costs and higher productivity and stop inflationary debt cancellations.

— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) May 29, 2024

When Obama was president, liberal pundits loved to quote Keynes “the boom, not the slump, is the right time for austerity at the Treasury.”

This is the boom he was talking about! https://t.co/V5x4LwqDxN

— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) May 29, 2024