Louie (Louis C.K.'s show on FX)

can we not with Woody Allen (yet again). totally different situation

VHS' breakdown there also explains why I don't like Tombot's characterization of his body of work as simply "bro stuff." (Not because it's dismissive, but because it's inaccurae, unless "bro" has lost all meaning, which maybe it has)

xpost

Yeah okay.

Still, people are quick to apologize for all sorts of celebrities. People will be even quicker with Louie because they love him in a way that is very personal, is my grander point.

Tig Notaro - have had kind of muted reactions.

I thought Tig talked about it publicly (if somewhat vaguely) and wrote an arc on her series about it?

I remember some piece when the 2nd season started about how Louie was *not* actually involved with the show in any way (he has a producer credit iirc). Didn't watch the show so dunno about story arcs - I watched a couple eps of S1 and wasn't into it.

Oh yeah I forgot Notaro in my small list of great stand up comedians making great work.

There's a bunch about it in this Fresh Air interview:
https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=611585606

ah I didn't know about that! thx for the link

This was also where Terry Gross (in typically awkward style) tries to square art with artist, at really the wrong moment:

GROSS: I get it. I just want to say one more thing about Louis C.K., and that is, I feel so bad in the sense that I think he's so talented. I think he is sometimes, like, so funny. And, you know, I really liked his show, not always so much when there was a love interest. That didn't always work out very well. But I think it's just so sad that he had the compulsion to behave the way he did because he is so talented and because he had so many good insights into human nature that he can express comedically. I just wanted to say that.

NOTARO: Well, I mean, that's one thing. But it's - you know, it's also sad. I - like I said, I know so many of the people - there's other people. Not everybody...

GROSS: No. Oh, absolutely.

NOTARO: ...Was in that article that...

GROSS: Yeah.

NOTARO: ...He's done this to. And so to know firsthand the pain and destruction that - just what it's done to other people is - that's really, really sad to me.

GROSS: I completely agree with you, and I didn't want to make it seem like I was making light of all the pain that he caused. I just think...

NOTARO: Oh, no, no, no.

GROSS: I mean, it's tragic for him, too, that he's trapped in that kind of behavior that I don't - it's behavior I don't understand.

NOTARO: Yeah. I don't either. And I just - I have spoken in depth with many people that he affected, and it is infuriating what it has done to them.

GROSS: So I know this is hard for you to talk about. So let's move on to another subject (laughter).

NOTARO: Thank you.

she is a terrible interviewer, really

but very interesting to hear Tig's side of it nonetheless

Sounds like this behavior must have been way more extensive than ppl know

I've hesitated over and over about adding my voice to the discussion but whatever here goes:

I don't think Louie has "comeback potential" by dint of anything to do with the nature of his comedy, his popularity, or comedy in general. I think many people are just confused as to the nature of "what he did", and "how the people involved were harmed".

In most instances of men accused by #MeToo there is a rush to define what they did as being punishable-by-law, i.e. "sexual assaults". It enables black-and-white thinking, allows us to stick all the rapists in a drawer and cancel them, and move on. The complexity of what-Louie-did and how-the-women-he-harmed-were-harmed is a little more nuanced, I think, than most people are prepared to unpack.

It is telling to me that Jenny Yang's list of Possible Solutions that was linked upthread focuses far less on "mitigating sexual trauma" and far more on a. financial and professional reparations for the comedians who were harmed, and b. public apologies to help mitigate the harm caused by his apathy, followed by his denial of having harmed these women.

The former is really getting to the heart of what happened. These women were put into a position where they felt that their professional careers were dependent upon being OK with/shrugging off Louie's exhibitionism. The implication of this is: the entire stability of their career arc is dependent upon how much they are willing to tolerate. That any young media personality's success hinges upon "whether or not they'll be OK with [a sexual act]" is enough to completely destroy one's own self-worth and career satisfaction.

I don't think a lot of people really understand that What Louie Did is about that particular harm. "These women weren't raped!" No, they just had their self-confidence destroyed, their aspirations destroyed.

A really good quote I read about a sexual harassment case in a magazine scenario:

The most terrible part of the harassment, she said, was not the sexting. It was the exhaustion she felt, the sense of depletion, as she tried and tried, and tried again, to manage this man’s attention and demands. How to respond to late-night texts in a way that would rebuff him without jeopardizing her position at the magazine? How to be available for the work without making herself available to the harassment? How to do all of this with some semblance of grace and repose, without losing all confidence that his interests in her had at least something to do with the quality of her work?

But yeah I don't think the majority of Louie's audience really gets all that?

that sure is a lot of words to help us figure out “his audience” doesn’t “get” what he did or why it was wrong

i am getting kind of tired of standup

i get through about 10 minutes of a lot of netflix specials

regular reminder that flicking through some stuff on Netflix is not the same thing as actually watching stand-up

Well El Tomboto I was tired of reading a lot of words about how Louie's particular comedic approach made it more excusable in the eyes of his audience to do the things he did

xpost to Goon

It doesn't matter what they get or not. They might get it. However, it's just so easy for lots of his audience to not care. That's been one of the responses from some of my close friends over the particular case of CK; 'yeah he was a monster but I'll still watch his new special if it ever comes'.

We may disagree on lots of stuff in these parts, but I feel like the amount of people who give a shit about having a strong ethical stance over content is over-represented on ilxor.

possibly

Also you can stick all the sexual predators in a drawer and cancel them all while supporting and listening to the nuance and complexity of the victim's traumas. It's just that one thing is easy to do publicly, as talk, over a message board or around a coffee with buds, and the other is more action based like voting and supporting the right policy (like in Canada making sure that we finally have a proper resolution for the missing and murdered FNMI women) or extremely personal work that involves family or friends being victims.

yeah otm

vhs otm

it saddens me how many female friends i have that have been sexually assaulted - and even some that have been, but deny they have been..not sure where i'm going with this but fuck louis ck

Turns out we were just finishing up dinner a half-block away from the Comedy Cellar just as Louis went on. Had I any idea I absolutely would have gone to heckle him. "how much did you pay the club to go onstage!"

"show me your weenis!"

Newnight on the BBC tonight had an interview with the feminist author Sady Doyle, where she talked about how there should be "no way back" for comedians who have acted abusively. That was the last thing on the show except for one thing - a video tribute to "Michael Jackson, the King of Pop who would have been 60 today"....

womp womp

There’s a whole major exhibition about michael jackson at the barbican or something

can we not with the mj stuff on this thread please

ya shamon everyone let's keep it on topic

yeah you can talk about Michael Jackson on the thread about Harvey Weinstein!

I don't wish to discuss it, it was just a glaring segue on the programme.

i am getting kind of tired of standup

i get through about 10 minutes of a lot of netflix specials

regular reminder that flicking through some stuff on Netflix is not the same thing as actually watching stand-up


ok what qualifies in your professional opinion?

some good stand up...

classic pryor, any bamford, doug stanhope, neil brennan - 3 MICS (Netflix)

patrice o'neal - elephant in the room

iliza schlesinger is pretty good as well

I've watched the Bamfords she is great

um...I saw Stanhope live and liked it, it had brilliant parts and some cringey parts, but I have mixed feelings about him overall

like I have watched plenty of comedy I just find a lot of stuff not that compelling and I am not as into the whole thing as I used to be I don't think that's unreasonable

and to be honest if a comedian can't grab me in 15 minutes I'm not really interested

the illiza s. one didn't do anything for me

Bad mood. Now I wish I did try to find a way in so I could have heckled. Perhaps it would have been closure for really liking Horace & Pete.

Anyway, new comedians please: really like Caitlin Gill, any others?

I'm not going to pretend I didn't think his stand-up and his show (at times) were genuinely brilliant, insightful, and better than anything produced by 99% of the comedians working today

but I have no desire to hear what he has to say on any subject or watch any project he's involved with ever again

― Number None, Wednesday, August 29, 2018 2:13 PM (nine hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Someone bump another comedy thread so we don’t have to talk about goodhearted comedians who have done no sex crimes in this thread

Done and done.

Rolling Stand-Up Comedy 2018

Anyway, fuck this guy. I'm A-OK never hearing from him again.

Distinguishing between the artist and his/her act is generally a smooth process for me. Except when so much of said artist's material depends on openly autobiographical elements, in which case we are dared not to dissociate the person from the persona (I'm happy to oblige, for the most part, especially when the living are involved).

yeah, he can fuck off and die. this shouldn't even be a question.

https://www.thecut.com/2018/08/what-about-the-careers-of-louis-ck-victims.html

the hard part for me in terms of ever listening to him is that too much of the weird sex hangups and dysfunction was a part of his comedy, like it feels really tied to what happened, and i guess sort of manipulative in retrospect...i can't really see just laughing at him like a regular comedian again

― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, August 29, 2018 10:24 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thought about this more and it feels like the comedy, his whole persona, the way he presented himself as an auteur comedian, even the things he did to help tig notaro, like it feels more than even manipulative, it feels like it was part of his process of being a predator, a cover or a way to set himself up in a way he knew that would be hard to criticize

yeah, otm for sure

another vote for the "liked some stuff he did but don't ever want to hear him again" camp

What is shitty is that he didn't even have the common sense to not make his Comedy Cellar bit a surprise? He is smart, he knew women would be there, and he knew some women just don't want no part in this.

he knew women would be there, and he knew some women just don't want no part in this

let's be honest, this was by intention, that's what he enjoys about it

Good thread from Jen Kirkman:

I didn’t have proof he did any of this masturbation stuff. Only rumors. He verbally did some sick stuff to me. I got harassed so bad for speaking on it with no one in my community to back me up I stopped. He apologized. And lied to me about the others. This is the mess of it all. https://t.co/DeQ9U9pM91

— JEN KIRKMAN (@JenKirkman) August 30, 2018

yeah, the "there's no way she didn't know" argument has always irritated me. people often don't know these things! especially when known liars are involved!