The Sopranos Vs. The Wire

Sure but if we accept the premise that they would have focused more on police violence if it had been made after blm came to prominence then the fact that it almost wholly sidesteps the issue - which did exist in 2002 - is at least worth noting given that this is sold as an all-encompassing critique of the war on drugs. I’m not saying this makes it a bad show, it’s a great show, but it is worth noting

xp phew

It is a commentary on police brutality? Even the good cops actively participate (Kima in the raid in S1) or cover it up (Daniels w/ Prez) closing ranks in the thin blue line.

Yeah idk I just remember those instances feeling quite glib. But this is the thing I get cross about when others do it (depiction without overt criticism = endorsement) so I should stfu

I wonder how the choice to have the extremely violent cop in season 4 be black would play today. But I think an essential part of the story is that the political structure in Baltimore is black, so the story of what the police does is fundamentally different than in Chicago or Ferguson, for instance. The constant racism in The Wire mostly takes the form of neglect. Bunk and Lester points out it would never be accepted to have about 300 murders a year if the victims were white, for instance

the scene with Lester and Caroline discussing Prez's shooting and whether it was racially motivated was interesting -- it was a very brief one, but it was definitely an attempt at examining the conflict between being a cop and being black.

I wonder how the choice to have the extremely violent cop in season 4 be black would play today.

I think about that character a bit, actually, Officer Walker -- it's interesting in the context of one of the critiques of urban policing of communities of color in the US (and the racism and brutality) which is that the majority of cops are white and live in the suburbs. They don't live in or socialize in the cities they patrol. In Walker, we see someone who is "of the community" -- aside from being black, he's a regular at a nearby club, for example. ... He is also lazy and corrupt.

This is kinda brought up elsewhere in the show, where Colvin talks about being a beat cop, and actually walking the beat, getting to know the neigbhorhood and making relationships with actual people (part of this is when he's roasting Carver for being totally useless in his job)... also in Season 4, you see McNulty doing just that.

And there are regular scenes with McNulty getting food at the same places where the drug crews eat (which is what leads to his getting Bodie to become an informant) ... counter this to the funny scene at the multiplex, where Bodie and Poot and dates run into Herc, Carver, and Dozerman with dates, and the line, "Y'all go to the movies, too?"

In Walker, we see someone who is "of the community" -- aside from being black, he's a regular at a nearby club, for example. ... This is kinda brought up elsewhere in the show, where Colvin talks about being a beat cop, and actually walking the beat, getting to know the neigbhorhood and making relationships with actual people (part of this is when he's roasting Carver for being totally useless in his job)... also in Season 4, you see McNulty doing just that.

otm that these are linked, i said on one of the other wire threads that this character

troubles the s3 ideal (the final shot of mcnulty) of the compassionate plugged-in beat cop: evil is not always ignorant or confused or detached; sometimes being aware of and close to people's pain means exploiting it better

Bunk and Lester points out it would never be accepted to have about 300 murders a year if the victims were white, for instance

right and again: in s5 mcnulty renders these murders briefly unacceptable by recontextualizing them, turning their stories into accessories to the fictional pulp story of a white guy who is literally him

evil is not always ignorant or confused or detached; sometimes being aware of and close to people's pain means exploiting it better

I think it is less about evil, and more about the structural power of police. Like, upthread someone commented about what would The Wire look like if it was less pro-cop or more politically progressive, and I think it would focus more on the inherent power and violence of policing, and being a cop. (Also there would be fewer scenes from the cop POV ...) ... Like, Walker uses that power and violence to enrich himself personally (and to be a bully). Prez uses it badly twice, the second time when he kills the black officer. We kinda see him recognize that aspect of being a police, and how it is inherent in the job, and decide he is not comfortable having those things. ... Also in season 3, during McNulty's affair with the political consultant lady, we get the sense that being a cop was the "best" job McNulty could get based on his class position, education, etc. -- he wanted a job where he could be clever and "make a difference" (related to the "power" aspect but not sure whether it's the same thing?) and being a cop in Baltimore was the best he could do, not that he was attracted to the structural violence and repressive aspect of policing.

we get the sense that being a cop was the "best" job McNulty could get based on his class position, education

relationship of the cops (and dealers!) to the politicians is well-portrayed in a bunch of scenes/arcs of various lengths+tones-- comic-pathetic in this mcnulty affair; ironic in daniels' being mistaken by clay davis' bag man for just another employee of his wife/her class; tragic stringer's entire going-legit ambition-- where v "clever" characters have experiences of one kind or another suggesting they are instruments

and that's another aspect where race comes into it -- and I'm sure that the fact it was created by two white dudes writing about what they know plays into this -- we don't get a scene with Lester chilling with his gf, and her asking him, "So, Lester, how does a super smart, capable man like yourself end up being a cop?" ... more than McNulty, Lester's intelligence and skills could easily qualify him for another line of work, but this doesn't come up, whereas with McNulty, it comes up regularly.

he wanted a job where he could be clever

one imagines the disruptive making-a-difference antics of a theoretical bourgeois consultant version of mcnulty would be as mere a mask as ever for what we know to be his True Motives-- which yeah are fanciful and unrepresentative true motives to imagine as a cop's big moral failing.

I mean, in another life, Lester could have made bank as an appraiser -- with his fondness and diligence for research, attention to the financial details and paper trail, and his interest in dollhouse miniatures -- dude could have been an expert on like Antiques Roadshow or finding art stolen by Nazis etc

lester is unusually idealized-- irl he would be qualified for many things but in the show's world he is "natural police" or an image of what the police "should" be, and if not allowed to be that must retreat entirely into tiny furniture-- plays to yr points of course about the show's blinders and yes he+mcnulty tho similar in this way are given different levels of attention and shading.

xp

Lol at the idea of bourgeois McNulty telling off assholes like the former CEO's of Uber and WeWork

lester is unusually idealized

i rewatched Seven the other day, and actually wondered whether Morgan Freeman's character in that movie was the model for Lester

Also, I think the time displacement that someone else mentioned upthread comes into play here -- (that the show happens in the early 2000s, but is based on events from at least 10 years earlier) ... like the part in Season 1 where Lester says, "c'mon, none of you have been in the military?" (when explaining the rope measuring trick) ... thinking that this could be an actual historical anecdote, with the historical Lester having been drafted and served in Vietnam, whereas TV Lester got me wondering, "I wonder how he ended up in the military? Did he enlist to get GI Bill college benefits?"

Isn't there a scene where Bunk explains to Omar why he became a cop? Also, a thing I've got from a lot of what I've read post-blm is that the black neighborhoods aren't anti-cop in theory. These areas are in fact under-policed and over-policed at the same time, and are in desperate need for help getting the rate of violence down.

I think it's a complete fantasy to have a politically progressive show focused on 'the inherent power and violence of policing, and being a cop' since that is in fact not a politically progressive idea. Not really. Art that focuses on that tends to be more right wing, such as The Shield or Training Day. Power fantasies.

Yeah that scene. Not all black ppl who live in black neighborhoods share the same opinions re cops

It strikes me more as a libertarian viewpoint than a progressive one.

Uh it’s a marxist tenet?

Um, not in any Marx I've read? He envisioned a dictatorship of the proletariat. And of course, most socialist societies, or welfare state societies, are quite heavily policed.

Althusser definitely focused on it — police as instruments of the repressive state apparatus.

Althusser had weird views on crime...

I mean ... most if not all of the left in the US sees police as inherently repressive, state sanctioned violence. ... Also most violence directed at people of color

Like ... idk look at the left’s criticism of Kamala Harris for example

Yeah, well, I guess at this point you should have figured out that I don't consider most the US left that progressive...

Jokes aside, I see Althusser in my mind more as a French structuralist like Foucault. And I've always seen that strain as more deconstructionist rather than marxist, located in a specific historical reality after the war in Algeria and may 68. The fight to weaken dominant strains of society more important than traditional 'marxist' battles.

Pretty sure Marx would agree that in a capitalist state, the law enforcement arm of the state is structurally violent against the oppressed proletariat

Especially when they carry guns the purpose of which is to kill people!!

Yes, but that is a problem with the capitalist state. Which, I'd argue, David Simon and The Wire agrees with.

But the show, in focusing on the exceptionalism of “the good ones” is problematic if you maintain that they see it that way

I think the closest it gets to making that criticism is when Prez decides not to be a cop anymore, and Colvin’s speech about “the hammer”

But The Wire might be the tv show in history that focuses the least on 'exceptionalism of “the good ones”'

Anyways, I found an article I read a few days ago, and Simon is quite explicitly anti-capitalist: https://archives.cjr.org/cover_story/secrets_of_the_city.php?page=all

“How can you report on a place like Baltimore, where one of every two black males is without work,” he said, “and in any way regard the economic structure as being viable?”
...
Simon believes that we’ve agreed as a country that our economy can thrive without 8 to 10 percent of the population. Thus, in his view, those without the education and skills to get by are inevitably going to turn to the only viable economy in their neighborhoods—the drug trade. To contain that problem and its attendant violence, he believes, the war on drugs has morphed into a war on the underclass. In both the viable and unviable America, Simon argues, capital is more valued than human lives, whether you’re an expendable tout in a drug organization, a cop trying to put good police work over statistics, a stevedore trying to pull in a full week of union wages, a teacher trying to educate rather than teach to the test, or, as the new season of The Wire argues, a reporter trying to capture the complexity of urban life rather than haul in sound bites.

I am not arguing that he is pro-capitalist. However, there is a difference between the tout in the drug trade and the other examples cited: the tout is likely to end up in jail or get killed... sometimes by cops. The others are likely to be reduced to worse working conditions and potential homelessness... the kid in the drug trade can actually die.

And any of these characters (except for the cop) are way more likely to end up in jail or victims of police violence if they are not white

Yes the tout in the drug trade belongs to the 'unviable America'. I really don't get what you're arguing anymore.

I am trying to figure out how you rationalize that being anti-cop in America is somehow not progressive or leftist

Closest it gets is probably when Prez refuses to co-operate with his old mates in the cops and give them some info on the kids. Still not *particularly* close.

Like there is that scene where the squad is comparing cops to drug crews, and comments that when the drug boy screws up, he can get killed, whereas the consequences for cops are way lighter ... it’s definitely gallows humor, kinda... but definitely played for laughs

It's also like, we're talking about a US tv show (not that uk or elsewhere ones are much, or any, better lol), and the fact that it is way way more sympatheitic to cops than is actually warranted by real life, is still consistent with it being a show that is way way more realistic about cops than virtually any other show :-(

Incessant pro-cop propaganda on tv shows over decades probably more insidious and damaging politically than fox news or uk tabloid press put together

films also i guess

pro cop propaganda in moving images

idk if this used to be a problem w zoetropes

the fact that it is way way more sympatheitic to cops than is actually warranted by real life, is still consistent with it being a show that is way way more realistic about cops than virtually any other show :-(

yeah ... this got me thinking about one of the scenes that I thought was really funny, which is when Santangelo and a few other patrol cops round up a half dozen drug dealers and drop them off in the forest to walk back home ... they don't beat them, they don't shoot them, they don't arrest them ... and my enjoyment of that scene is from the fact that this wouldn't happen in real life. It's a mean trick, but it's not dehumanizing and violent. In real life, these guys would be beat, shot, or incarcerated.

I think this is partly why Season 3 is my favorite -- because it presents this alternate reality (or a glimpse of it)