Single life in Tokyo

Y'know, I only know what my parents relay and what little I've seen the +dozen times I've gone to Japan. Personally? I have a VERY strong love/hate relationship with Japan, so I'm not really one to ask (as I also haven't really lived there for more than two weeks at a time). That said, I'd do it, if you can cope with a lonely life. I mean, shit, it's four years not eternity and the life CAN be good at times. Tokyo's fantastic. And you can make friends. :-) And shit, if you can't make friends, you always have great food. ;-)

Go for it!

The food is a draw... but everyone seems to be saying YOU WILL NEVER BREAK INTO THE CULTURE! Job wouldn't start for a year, so I'd have a bit of time to learn some language, but not much, what with working full time/long hours.

I would so do it if it was definitely just one year.

"YOU WILL NEVER BREAK INTO THE CULTURE"

heard that many times as wee, and seems reasonable enough after being there.
a friend's friend lives in Kyoto for 3 years already and dying to get back ( he wants to finish his studies first) even though he has a japanese girlfriend. he told me he is not the only one who feels alienated. (though Kyoto is boring and with less foreigners than Tokyo)

And by the time I left I'd be 41... a long time to spend regretting the move (though I guess I could just leave, but hard to do that and quickly get a job back home).

Nath, I handle loneliness ok, but I've kind of had enough of it. But for a year, the city would be fun enough to deal with it...

The expat community must be pretty big as expat communities go, wouldn't that provide plenty of plotting and intrigue? But then maybe that makes things worse, having a friend's leaving do every week. Have you done foreign postings before, are they a drag?

Shasta to thread.

"YOU WILL NEVER BREAK INTO THE CULTURE"

but who says you want to? you can be an outsider and enjoy that. :-)

but what ian said. he'll have better (more informed and more positive) things to say. :-)

Ismael, yes, I worked for two years in Belgrade (for a different, but linked, organisation) and couldn't stand the expat community there, especially the plotting and intrigue - but then I didn't really try to find the right crowd. I got sucked into very long hours at work and was too tired/time-starved to get beyond the immediate expats I met through work. I did have one or two local Serbian friends I'd known from their own time in the UK, and I speak Russian so I could pick up Serbian very easily.

Nath, true! I think I should look at it that way.

First kick workaholism; THEN go to Japan.

Even if you do break into the culture (befriend Japanese, snag a significant other) you will never break into the culture (be accepted by the majority of Japanese). I had no illusions of breaking into the culture, but it did get frustrating to realize that for most Japanese I remained the "other" at a time by which Japan and the Japanese had stopped being exotic to me (through familiarity). In a way though, being lonely in a foreign country is a bit easier to stomach than being lonely in your native country (you can explain it away easier--justify it better). I say definitely go for it (if you want to) and just try not to worry about what others think or say about you. I was 25 and constantly asked about my (non)marital status. Tokyo and Japan are fun and exciting and the expat community is large and accepting (if a bit clueless).

Thanks Virginia - yes, though I'm only lonely here because of my newly-single status and lack of time to see friends. Once I sort myself out (and I can only whine so much, because I initiated the breakup and I decided to write the stupid dissertation that has to be in 1st Sept), it should get easier.

You've convinced me it would totally be a good idea for a year. I don't think I couldn't handle the kind of situation you're describing for four.

An advantage of Tokyo must be that I'm guessing most westerners in Belgrade are on government/government-type postings - whereas Tokyo's expats will be up to all sorts of stuff, and there are always some types who know lots of locals. A frenzy of socialising in the first month or two might prove rewarding if you target it right i.e. not cocktails at Raffles and first secretary's dinner parties. Not sure where off-duty language teachers, bankers and escorts hang out in their spare time though

very good point. You get the language teachers through Br1ti$h C0unc1l contacts, which I would have. Damn right about first secretaries' dinner parties. I'll never forget the Ambassador sticking his arm in the air with his empty G&T glass while continuing to keep his eyes on his conversation partner, and just keeping the arm in the air without shifting his gaze for one moment while a waiter rushed up, took the empty glass and placed a fresh G&T in his hand. And he was a *nice* ambassador.

I've never lived in Tokyo nor been single on my visits so I have nothing really to contribute here.

It's a fun place to visit. I'd spend at least a few weeks first before you decide to move there. Language barrier is immense. I'm in kind of an unusual position as I have a few close friends who are Tokyo natives and also multi-lingual and cosmopolitan (lived in LA/Paris/Chicago). As such I never encountered any ex-pats there, so not sure how lonely the scene could get.

To be honest the language barrier isn't that big of a deal for commutes: you have everything in romaji (western language). Set one foot outside Tokyo and you'll discover Tokyo is actually easy to navigate. ;-)

(My perception is of course skewed because I know elementary Japanese and have been there a lot. I've noticed the shocked faces of western tourists. Like little deer caught in a headlight.)

I'm not sure how easy it is for you to learn languages, but Japanese is fairly structured so you can quickly form sentences (as opposed to, say, Dutch which is riddled with exceptions and so on). Japanese is difficult, but the basics can be mastered quickly. That said, if you decide to move, start learning now cause it takes some time to actually speak it. It took me a few years to gather enough courage to utter some words. :-)

I find the culture and people extremely intriguing. Yes, you are forever the outsider, but once you accept that (and in my case I actually enjoy it, relish that position,...) you can laugh it off. They will forever rub it in (in the nicest possible way) that you're an outsider, and oh gosh you speak so well japanese even though you're VERY rub at it, but so effing what, it's just as difficult for them to understand your culture.

I repeat: the food is DA YUM.

BTW I HATE WESTERN PPL WHO BUY THE "MYTH" (read: everything is better). SUXORS.
But keep in mind that you wil be very solitary. It can be extremely depressing to be in said position.

First kick workaholism; THEN go to Japan.

Roffle. DOn't kick the habit and go to Japan. You'll need to love your job and work long hours. So I have been told. (Personally I don't buy it but my parents keep telling me how much more the Japanese work.)

Thanks both. Spending a few weeks would be fabulous but I can't manage it before the time when I would have to make a decision about the job. I learn languages fairly well, or at least I used to - but I'm a bit stuck in a Slavonic rut. I'd enjoy the language part as long as I had enough time to get a bit of a grip before going.

Phone interview is tomorrow but now I'm told this is just half an hour and just the first stage. This may be the most premature thread ever...

No really, I've had enough of 13-hour days and even for the sake of fitting into the work ethic of Japan, I wanna kick 'em. So far I have done nothing at all to make this happen.

4 year is slightly long as a posting but I'm sure you won't get bored. Ultimately it all depends what you're after these days, a busy social life or a real change of scene. I've lived the expat life for as long as I can remember and I've always gone back and forth between these two types of postings. You'll be an outsider but like so many here have said, so what. That's probably half of the fun.

I lived in Tokyo for more than 4 years and loved it. Assuming you've had moderate success making friends in new places in the past, you'll do just fine in Tokyo. There are many expats from different walks of life and countries of origin and plenty of bi-cultural, billingual Japanese.

Based on friend's experiences, dating can be kind of tough for western women for a variety of reasons. Some of my female friends found it frustrating.

It's an amazing place and I love love love it. I will live there again. Others don't really enjoy living in Tokyo (or Japan) and leave after a year or so. Whether it's a good place for you to spend the next four years, I cannot say.

Can you go for a visit before making a decision?

Four years actually sounds like a good amount of time to be out there for: most of my friends who've been long-term in Japan (without being lifers) tended to leave around the five-year mark.

Tokyo can actually be a fantastic place to be lonely in: it's quite well-designed for people who live on their own and keep odd hours (a korean friend of mine criticised it for exactly this: she thought it was awful, all these restaurant tables-for-one), and people will generally be uninterested in you and your life unless you give them specific reason not to be (admittedly sometimes 'being white and somewhere unexpected' can count as specific reason). I don't know, this maybe sounds a bit perverse, but... it's not a place that makes you feel awkward for being on your own. You don't feel weird doing your grocery shopping at four in the morning or stopping to hang out with the cats in a miniscule dirt park. And you can make some very comforting, comfortable casual sort-of-friendships just by being a regular at a coffeeshop or bookshop. I don't know if I'm right in saying this, but it feels like a lot of friendships in Japan are based as much on face-time as anything else: I had one jazz-kissa that I went to on about a weekly basis, where the owner and I progressed from friendly-silence to compliments-on-your-japanese to reasons-you-are-in-tokyo to which-records-shall-i-put-on to now-i-will-tell-other-regulars-all-about-you and it really felt like a place where I belonged. The friendship didn't depend on initial effort so much as turning up and being there and being generally friendly. It is more difficult being a woman alone in a bar, but I think that's pretty universal (there are a few female-only bars where a girl on her own doesn't feel too stared-at, but those tend to be more for the lesbians).

The expat community is also huge and varied, which might not have been the case in Bahrain -- there seems to be quite a large anglophone design/art community (all the tokyo art beat, pecha kucha night people), as well as yokohama/chiba-based military, diplomats, students, lawyers, business and finance type, etc. It's very easy to find an interest group, and I never found the groups I met unwelcoming.

From what I've heard, dating Japanese guys can be fraught with all kinds of cultural differences. You do get a lot of questions of the 'do you have a boyfriend?' 'what do you think of Japanese men?' type, generally generally from Japanese women (who then want to know about whether all british men are 'gentlemen'), but they're fairly easy to weather. It's sort of on the same level as the constant compliments on rudimentary skill with chopsticks, or on halting Japanese, etc.

Thanks both, these are incredibly encouraging. I love that kind of city you're describing, where you're not really alone as such ever if you don't want to be. Belgrade (not Bahrain) was definitely less varied as an expat community, that's very true.

Super Cub - no, I can't fit in a visit though I would really love to (got to get to Abu Dhabi, Nairobi, Washington, Delhi between now and October. Knackered even thinking about it.

Had the half-hour telephone interview today - it went ok, but not great. I babbled. It was incredibly rushed. They said they were interviewing five people, so I guess they'll do final interviews with two or three.

haha clearly all places which start with a B are one to me!

What a pity Momus no longer posts here, as he'd have some helpful suggestions. Maybe you could contact him via his blog?

"What a pity Momus no longer posts here, as he'd have some helpful suggestions."

While Momus was certainly a very entertaining poster, the idealized vision of Japan as utopia he often described was actually pretty useless for people on this board who actually live there and have responsibilities beyond attending art openings and admiring the local female population.

I spent 7 years in Japan, and although I never lived in Tokyo, I was there pretty often. It's a fantastic place, and one of my all-time favourite cities.

The stuff about "never breaking into the culture" is true. No matter how long you stay, or how good your Japanese gets, or how many half-Japanese kids you have, or how much property you eventually own, or how much you pay in taxes, you will ALWAYS be "gaijin" to most people. If you can't handle that, then don't even get on the plane. Having said that, being immersed in a culture which still holds you at arm's length for the most part, provides a really interesting perspective. Expats are also excused from a lot of the social pressures that ordinary Japanese must constantly deal with. Sometimes just pretending I didn't understand what was going on was a "get-out-of-jail free" card. That becomes less effective the longer you stay however.

Also, keep in mind that while Japan is very xenophobic on a Macro level, that individual Japanese people can be among the most welcoming that you'll even encounter. I know that sounds somewhat contradictory, but if contradictions bother you, then I also advise you to not go to Japan. It takes time to really become friends with Japanese people, but once you're in - you're in. I had a lot of people welcome me into their lives. I met parents, grandparents, wives, husbands and children; ate in their homes, took trips together, played sports, partied - it just takes some time to get over the "gaijin" hump.

While there is a large expat community in Tokyo, it really does pay to break out of that, once you're comfortable in your new surroundings. Gaijin bars are a safe option for when you first arrive, or when you just want a pint of something familiar, but they can get old fast. One good way to meet people is through an existing network of some type. Getting someone you know to introduce you to their circle of friends is a good way, but I also met people who eventually became great friends of mine the old-fashioned way in bars, at parties or in nightclubs. Sports teams and clubs for people with similar interests are also a good way to get yourself out there. I know a lot of Canadians in Japan who play in hockey leagues for example, and whether in Tokyo or Toronto, people often go out for a few drinks after a game.

As far as being a woman, it is going to be more difficult than what you're probably used to. That's just the honest truth. Most, or at least a significant proportion, of the western men there date exclusively Japanese women, and the Japanese men, while interested, are generally pretty intimidated. I've seen western women I know go there and spend a year or two being lonely, only to get bitter, frustrated and leave. Other women I know have had no problem dating - either locals or fellow "foreigners". It comes down to personality in a lot of cases. Understand that in many cases guys won't be hitting on you incessantly, like they might do back home. A lot of women I knew over there had a hard time taking the initiative, because they never really had to before. My current girlfriend is British, but we met over there, so it's certainly possible to find yourself in a meaningful relationship. Having said that, Tokyo's a great place to pursue a few meaningless ones as well.

Again, it really is a great place, and I would strongly recommend it. Just put aside everything you thought you knew about it, and prepare to be amazed.

Oh man, this thread makes me feel bad. We haven't seen enough of each other this year ljubjana!

For completely selfish reasons I don't want you to go to Japan but I know you will do great if you do. Respect.

"makes phone to ear motion"

Really appreciate the time people are taking to post here - I'm getting so much better a sense of what this all adds up to.

while Japan is very xenophobic on a Macro level, that individual Japanese people can be among the most welcoming that you'll even encounter

Russia was a bit like this but in a totally different way, I guess. I can definitely handle that. As long as I can get close to people in some way then it doesn't matter if my defining characteristic is gaijin.

Understand that in many cases guys won't be hitting on you incessantly, like they might do back home.

Ha, if only they did that back home! I'm used to not being hit on! Darn, one of the hardest things about Belgrade was so many gorgeous men, and I wasn't hit on in two years!

xpost - Ned, I am imaging this very smooth slow-mo ear to phone motion executed deadpan, so will give you a call soon. I will see you and Mrs Trifle and the triflettes in a month and by then I will know what the hell is going on with jobs and shit. Can't wait!

No deal - didn't get through to second interview. But you have all made me really, really want to visit Japan. Thanks for all the great advice.