what are barack obama's flaws?

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serious question

and what, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:23 (nine years ago) Permalink

arrogance

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:26 (nine years ago) Permalink

i was looking at these synopses of all the right wing anti-clinton books & thinking damn i actually agree with all the personal clinton armchair psychology stuff - dishonesty, lack of principle, general cowardice. at the time (i was like 10) i didnt believe that shit, just thought it was partisan & desperate - basically true i guess - but switched my understanding of clinton up after i read the shitty hitchens book, and now after the the obama stuff in the primaries most liberals agree with right-wing/national review types about this shit. so when obama becomes president are there any character flaws we'll look back on in 10-15 years and think man the republicans were actually right about that? is this genuinely different?

and what, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:28 (nine years ago) Permalink

too handsome

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:29 (nine years ago) Permalink

Scary name.

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:30 (nine years ago) Permalink

faith in his friends

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:31 (nine years ago) Permalink

Not that I give a shit, but a 'flaw' in terms of some people think it's a reason to be suspicious of him.

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:31 (nine years ago) Permalink

too black, too strong.

jim, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:31 (nine years ago) Permalink

^ beat me to it

sleep, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:32 (nine years ago) Permalink

ok oily but we arent going to look back in 10 years and be like this guy was actually only okay. if only his name was jim scott. the point of this thread isn't "why won't racist people vote for him"

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:33 (nine years ago) Permalink

you guys are missing the point

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:33 (nine years ago) Permalink

haha rly

sleep, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:34 (nine years ago) Permalink

poor bowling form

sleep, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:34 (nine years ago) Permalink

overconfidence in the electorate's willingness to assume civic responsibility

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:35 (nine years ago) Permalink

probably has a clogged pore or two

dan m, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:35 (nine years ago) Permalink

In that case, all this 'bipartisanship' talk makes me worry he'll let the plutocrats walk all over him in the name of unity. It's too early to tell, of course. The problem is, I'm guilty of being a little star struck by the dude and his speeches and advisors and stuff, so I'm probably missing important defects. So maybe that's a flaw, too.

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

too cool

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

yeah, basically

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

Born in the wrong country at the wrong time.

Both Hillary and McCain would be "good" Presidents, especially in comparison to the current Commander-In-Chief, but neither of them are in the same league as Obama.

Oh yeah, he's also an elitist, as the children of single moms tend to be.

j-rock, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:38 (nine years ago) Permalink

Wife seems like a dick.

paulhw, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:39 (nine years ago) Permalink

Better writer than every single last one of his critics and most of his supporters.

Dave Matthews endorsement.

Trick move in pickup b-ball is to fake to the right, plow in hard to the left. No symbolism there at all.

suzy, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:41 (nine years ago) Permalink

i actually wish people would take this thread seriously; i didnt realize it wasnt about electability & i think the answer is probably the same either way (we dont know yet), but even tho im behind the guy 100% & have been for months my gut says myself & probably a lot of people here are gonna be dissatisfied with him 4-8 years down the road. a discussion of concrete reasons why this might be so seems worthwhile to me

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:42 (nine years ago) Permalink

foreign policy naivete. biggest thing that worries me about him by far. if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:45 (nine years ago) Permalink

thank u deeznuts i am serious about like actual clintonesque character defects not more empty lolz how everybody except us is superficial & racist

and what, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:45 (nine years ago) Permalink

what elmo and tom said, basically--the dude comes across as too trusting in america's ability to be smart about shit

max, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:48 (nine years ago) Permalink

not good at speaking for 10 second clips on the 6 o clock news

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:48 (nine years ago) Permalink

hard to say but i think he believes his own hype at this point

messiah complex (likely to evolve into martyr complex)

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:50 (nine years ago) Permalink

yeah what max/tombot/elmo said fourthed.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:51 (nine years ago) Permalink

might not be able to tame congress and end up like Clinton in 1994

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:54 (nine years ago) Permalink

Also a bit of what deez said - I'm worried he's setting himself up to disappoint everyone.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:54 (nine years ago) Permalink

has convinved people like me to be largely uninterested in this question

gabbneb, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:55 (nine years ago) Permalink

He has a bit of this tendency to come off like "I fully understand this problem because I've read many essays about it." Which makes me like him and wince at the same time.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:57 (nine years ago) Permalink

if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

It's hard to see how staying in Iraq is helping to prevent domestic terrorism. Even McCain wants to close Gitmo. I doubt civil liberties will go all the way back to pre-9/11 status, and not sure if Obama is even suggesting that they should

o. nate, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:58 (nine years ago) Permalink

has convinved people like me to be largely uninterested in this question

-- gabbneb, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:55 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

shock of shocks

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:04 (nine years ago) Permalink

what elmo and tom said, basically--the dude comes across as too trusting in america's ability to be smart about shit

-- max, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:48 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i really want to believe this is true, but it sounds the kind of bs that be lipped by his supporters - his flaw is that he's TOO right about everything? ill take that.

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

foreign policy naivete. biggest thing that worries me about him by far. if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

-- El Tomboto, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 4:45 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

this is more lol gwb put u in a jackpot sry!

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:09 (nine years ago) Permalink

i am really curious as to what hes gonna do w/the gitmo dudes who we have evidence against thats inadmissible due to torture tho

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

i wonder about his ability/willingness to get his hands dirty and wrestle things to the ground. saying you're willing to talk to iran/hamas/whoever is all well and good, but if you go into those situations you have to go in saying, "here's the deal: you can get this and this, you can't get this and this, and we're going to have to fight about this and this -- but if the fight goes on too long, you get nothing." the bushies have been terrible at that stuff, so it's not like the bar is set particularly high, but it would be nice to have someone who can actually get some things done. (wouldn't have to be him personally, but he'd need some hardball players around who knew how to do that.) (same applies in dealing with congress, obviously.)

tipsy mothra, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:11 (nine years ago) Permalink

deex -- i didn't say he's overly correct, but i think he may be presumptuous that America will be eager or grateful about implementing the changes he wants

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:12 (nine years ago) Permalink

also I am dead serious that his uh um uh tic that he has when you can tell he's thinking on his feet is really not reassuring at all

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:13 (nine years ago) Permalink

he actually comes across as a guy who would be an absolute expert at that kind of stuff to me tipsy

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:13 (nine years ago) Permalink

yah he def should cut that out xp

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:14 (nine years ago) Permalink

nodding slowly and looking thoughtful is the way to go

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:15 (nine years ago) Permalink

his uh um uh tic that he has when you can tell he's thinking on his feet

this doesn't bother me so much -- it's campaign season and he has to be excruciatingly calculating about his diction. when he speaks off the cuff he gets in trouble, but really only because he running for office

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:15 (nine years ago) Permalink

or alternatively quit being so optimistic about your fellow humans that you keep getting surprised by shit, like Wright dropping an atom bomb on you on national television

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:16 (nine years ago) Permalink

xp Still, I think Hillary is a better extemporaneous speaker.

jaymc, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:17 (nine years ago) Permalink

his almost musical hand-gesture of 'conducting' a discussion / 'putting a fine point' on an argument

it's like the new bubba remote

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:17 (nine years ago) Permalink

I don't think Tom's point is that Obama is going to cause terrorism to happen, just that when it does he's going to look bad.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

you guys all seem to think obama waaaaaaaaay less pragmatic than i do, i guess

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

I actually HOPE he's more cynical and pragmatic than I'm giving him credit for.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:19 (nine years ago) Permalink

he's 45's half-brother more than he is 44's, considering the shit he talks

reggie (qualmsley), Wednesday, 3 May 2017 00:12 (six months ago) Permalink

"Jager, who in “Dreams From My Father” was virtually written out, compressed into a single character along with two prior Obama girlfriends"

"Polly Perkins is a composite, like New York Magazine does"

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1udbolCQAERMNn.png

salthigh, Wednesday, 3 May 2017 15:38 (six months ago) Permalink

one month passes...

After today's WaPo story, I expect his fealty to bipartisanship and the noble motives of his enemies will be his most damning flaw. And it proved dangerous.

the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 23 June 2017 15:00 (four months ago) Permalink

he got played

reggie (qualmsley), Friday, 23 June 2017 21:06 (four months ago) Permalink

After today's WaPo story, I expect his fealty to bipartisanship and the noble motives of his enemies will be his most damning flaw. And it proved dangerous.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, June 23, 2017 11:00 AM (eleven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you know his moderation is really an admirable quality, though its effects on policy were mostly mixed. with time i appreciate his foreign policy approach more and more -- especially as it's become more clear that clinton was behind many of the missteps -- but domestically yes, it got him played

k3vin k., Saturday, 24 June 2017 02:29 (four months ago) Permalink

it doesn't matter; this is what this country deserves

mookieproof, Saturday, 24 June 2017 02:38 (four months ago) Permalink

"It got him played" suggests he was a passive actor.

the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 24 June 2017 02:44 (four months ago) Permalink

i don't think this is right, though. the problem was they expected clinton to win like everyone else. avoiding a stink from trump about the rigged election was prudent on that basis. if they had realistically expected trump to win, the calculus on giving him fodder would have been different.

j., Saturday, 24 June 2017 02:46 (four months ago) Permalink

In some ways it's comforting to know that everyone underestimated the collective stupidity of US voters, all the way to the top, and in other ways it's very frightening

Karl Malone, Saturday, 24 June 2017 03:02 (four months ago) Permalink

oh no, barack obama failed to anticipate the nation electing a charlatan television reality show host

mookieproof, Saturday, 24 June 2017 03:16 (four months ago) Permalink

I still don't understand that thinking, but it doesn't matter -- too late.

the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 24 June 2017 03:17 (four months ago) Permalink

especially as it's become more clear that clinton was behind many of the missteps

― k3vin k., 24. juni 2017 04:29 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is hardly true, and a fair bit of a cop out. The driving force behind Libya was France, for instance.

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 03:58 (four months ago) Permalink

clinton was responsible for making foreign policy decisions for the u.s., not france

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 04:59 (four months ago) Permalink

No, Obama was the commander in chief.

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 09:38 (four months ago) Permalink

In some ways it's comforting to know that everyone underestimated the collective stupidity of US voters, all the way to the top, the electoral college, and in other ways it's very frightening

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:22 (four months ago) Permalink

Also Fred B otm
And Alfred otm with the revive
Obama needed more deontology, slightly less utilitarianism

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:24 (four months ago) Permalink

He was weak on foreign policy. Which really isn't the worst thing to be, in practice the alternative has been bluster and stupidity. But even if he led Hillary talk him into stupid decisions - which really wasn't what happened... - that's him being weak. He led France lead the US into Libya, with bad consequences, and he led Russia lead the US out of Syria, with pretty bad consequences as well. He was 'deliberative and careful', if you want to describe it in a positive way, but that led others to take the lead, and it's as bad an outcome as can be that Russia then decided to hack the US election, and he didn't know what to do...

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:43 (four months ago) Permalink

But, I mean, he is the US president with the best foreign policy this millenium. By far... Foreign policy is complicated.

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:44 (four months ago) Permalink

Obama's foreign policy was fine. Our presidents are elected by 200 million provincial townspeople who can't find where Fred B lives on a map so I'm very happy whenever we get one who doesn't start two wars he can't fucking finish.

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:46 (four months ago) Permalink

xp FB otm

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:46 (four months ago) Permalink

(Zing crashed as I posted that fwiw)

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:47 (four months ago) Permalink

yeah he would probably have the shortest sentence in The Hague of recent presidents

maybe 30 years

I'm very happy whenever we get one who doesn't start two wars he can't fucking finish.

ah, FINISHING them is the key

not finishing the ones you inherited, less important

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:57 (four months ago) Permalink

Fuck you, you predictable shit. You're from the "America shouldn't have any foreign policy" wing of the left, we all fucking know

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:01 (four months ago) Permalink

ok oily but we arent going to look back in 10 years and be like this guy was actually only okay

j0rda not otm

the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:13 (four months ago) Permalink

Thanks, T. How does your ilk sleep? Humanity ends at the border, obviously.

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:18 (four months ago) Permalink

remember, when the cogs like El T say "foreign policy," hear "global abbatoir"

at least they're not predictable, tho

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:20 (four months ago) Permalink

Yeah, it's all about how you sleep, right? You'd be fine with every non-American dying horrifically, as long as you could wash your own hands of it.

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:20 (four months ago) Permalink

go get under a drone, u babbler

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:28 (four months ago) Permalink

Fuck you

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:29 (four months ago) Permalink

tom relax jeez!

k3vin k., Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:49 (four months ago) Permalink

not sure what fred's HRC white knighting is all about, i didn't really dis her that hard or anything. there's tons of reporting out there that suggests she was one of the louder hawks in obama's ear during her time at state, and given that obama's decision-making style was nothing if not collaborative (a good thing!), it seems reasonable to point that out. though yes, ultimately the decision is his

k3vin k., Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:52 (four months ago) Permalink

Fuck off with that sexist 'white knight' bullshit, will you?

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 14:13 (four months ago) Permalink

everybody so touchy this morning huh

k3vin k., Saturday, 24 June 2017 14:22 (four months ago) Permalink

From my perspective, Obama was collaborative with the people he invited to the room. He always invited someone who would disagree with him, and then try to accommodate them. Not convince them to come around to his position. That's probably his greatest flaw, as Alfred alluded to above

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 14:23 (four months ago) Permalink

He deserves a lot of praise for Cuba and Iran, though, I forgot about that. I think my main problem with his foreign policy was mostly his slowness. He didn't have a guiding ideology, which is a fairly good thing. He wanted to be reactive and free and improvising, but he was just at times so slow that things spun out of control before he did anything. The part of that WaPo story of them trying to figure out a response to the Russians is a comedy of errors.

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 14:29 (four months ago) Permalink

Obama's foreign policy was fine.

lol

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:34 (four months ago) Permalink

American FP orthodoxy is poison and O did nothing to change that even if he didn't necessarily indulge in every possible worst impulse

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:36 (four months ago) Permalink

Design the perfect US foreign policy! Wait no let me guess Bernie already did it

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:42 (four months ago) Permalink

Bernie is awful on foreign policy and basically the entire left acknowledges this

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:47 (four months ago) Permalink

I'd start with not giving the Saudis a bunch of money or drone bombing hospitals, how's that?

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:48 (four months ago) Permalink

Wait no let me guess Bernie already did it

I'll join the "fuck you" party.

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:59 (four months ago) Permalink

Disarmament Now

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:00 (four months ago) Permalink

/ Wait no let me guess Bernie already did it/

I'll join the "fuck you" party.

You did that a while back, remember when we 51'd you? I really enjoyed being called a "cog" though.

Oh, and Fuck you.

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:05 (four months ago) Permalink

I'd start with not giving the Saudis a bunch of money or drone bombing hospitals, how's that?

Okay if we want to do this for real, and since I'm usually the hippie in the room at my day job I'm certainly game, should we have a thread?

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:08 (four months ago) Permalink

Bombing hospitals is insanely good.

the ghost of markers, Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:10 (four months ago) Permalink

definitely call it the American FP thread

blog haus aka the scene raver (wins), Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:11 (four months ago) Permalink

for the love of god if you really must do that revive an existing thread, having a new dedicated trump thread is bad enough

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:21 (four months ago) Permalink

oh good this should be edifying

Mordy, Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:21 (four months ago) Permalink

j0rda not otm

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, June 24, 2017 2:13 PM (eight hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you guys are missing the point

― J0rdan S., Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:33 PM (nine years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 24 June 2017 21:31 (four months ago) Permalink

two months pass...

still tough to get over this but hey, nobody's perfect ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In 2011, the former Republican chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Christopher "Kit" Bond, told me: "It's not the intelligence committee that fails to understand the problem. It's the Obama administration."

"The president seemed as angry at Mueller for wanting to arrest the illegals and at Panetta for wanting to exfiltrate the source from Moscow as he was at the Russians," Gates wrote. He quoted Obama as saying: "Just as we're getting on track with the Russians, this? This is a throwback to the Cold War. This is right out of John le Carré. We put START, Iran, the whole relationship with Russia at risk for this kind of thing?" Gates recounts that the vice president wanted to ignore the entire issue because it threatened to disrupt an upcoming visit from Russia's president at the time, Dmitry Medvedev.

Even after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the Obama policy toward Russian aggression was inconsistent. As Foreign Policy magazine reported in May, Obama's State Department slow-rolled a proposal from the U.S. Mission to the United Nations to lay out a set of options to punish Russia's client Syria for its use of chlorine bombs against its own citizens in 2014. Russia and the U.S. forged the agreement in 2013 to remove chemical weapons from the country. In 2015, the Obama administration did nothing to deter Russia from establishing air bases inside Syria...

All of this is the context of Putin's decision to boldly interfere in the 2016 U.S. elections. Perhaps Putin would have authorized the operation even if Obama had responded more robustly to Russia's earlier dirty tricks and foreign adventures. But it's easy to understand why Putin would believe he had a free shot. Russia probed American resolve for years. When Obama finally did respond, it was too late to save Ukraine and too late to protect our election.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-27/obama-choked-on-russia-long-before-the-2016-election

reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 11 September 2017 19:10 (two months ago) Permalink


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