The Colombia/Ecuador/Venezuela Mess or Let's Place Bets on How Long Before the U.S. Backs a Colombian War With Venezuela

"It is not the EU or Canada that puts lots of journalists in prison."

Plenty of other people EU and Canada kill and mis-treat, if that's the road you wanna walk.

No-one mentioned Austria but, since you have, another wonderful EU country with Nazis in its government.

Heh, Venezuela is just ahead of Russia:

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

I mean, I'm not about to support Maduro but LOL @ the EU as some kind of exemplar of democracy and freedom - home of Orban, the FPO, the Law and Justice Party, Salvini...

And even with all these terrible people and parties, it remains a much freer place than Maduro's Venezuela. Post and pre-2018 economic sanctions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

LOL @ the EU as some kind of exemplar of democracy and freedom

This is such a weird sentiment

The EU is a fairly decentralized entity that also happens to be home to exemplars of democracy and freedom? Which are ever relative terms to begin with? Because no country could ever live up to the kind of absolutist standards you no doubt have in mind, at least not in the foreseeable future?

How do you know what I have in mind?

I tell you what's weird, using Canada and the EU as a stick to beat Maduro!

Sorry I should have used Australia and Norway.

xp: It's not really what anybody here is doing, but it wouldn't be weird at all?

Seems pretty arbritrary to wheel out the EU as a comparison for Venezuela?

I mean,

And even with all these terrible people and parties, it remains a much freer place than Maduro's Venezuela. Post and pre-2018 economic sanctions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yah boo sucks or what?

The comparison was with China and Russia, as potential alliance partners.

In the context of my post I was speaking about mutual interests and how Russia and Venezuela's aligns as opposed to say, western nations.

And Canada?

Russia, China, the EU, Canada?

What are you even talking about.

Potential alliance partners, instead of Russia and China? Canada.

The EU is a fairly decentralized entity that also happens to be home to exemplars of democracy and freedom? Which are ever relative terms to begin with? Because no country could ever live up to the kind of absolutist standards you no doubt have in mind, at least not in the foreseeable future?

― pomenitul, Wednesday, 1 May 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Well certain liberal standards are being used against Venezuela but the whole picture isn't being looked at.

Yanukovich, Karapetyan, Bouteflika, etc, highlight pretty clearly that a Russian line of credit and arms sales don’t guarantee much in the face of popular protests capable of shutting down a country. Guaido’s ongoing problem is that there isn’t enough support and the more he messes up with stunts like yesterday, the more that support evaporates.

Eh, his problem is that the military is staying loyal. And in a military dictatorship, that's a problem.

Bouteflika lasted two decades. I sincerely hope Maduro won't last half as long.

what stake do you have irl w/r/t uncritically supporting the worst sort of US interventionism? Did you support the contras in Nicaragua as well? Pro tip: anyone the US supports is bad, full stop.

See, sleeve, it reads like parody, but I get the feeling you mean it?

Can you give a single counter example where US involvement improved the baseline wellbeing of the population?

have heard good things about the Marshall PLan

You should stick to films, where you actually seem to have a clue

Marshall Plan was not intervention, it was cleanup

If it's intervention you want, something happened right before the Marshall Plan which I know my country was quite happy with.

And sorry for saying involvement when I meant i tervention

OK then let's talk about the last 65 years, come on

Balkan?

Nope, look up the Stasi Trg mines and follow the money

Good try though

Also that was not unilateral

Again, reads like parody.

Pot meet kettle

I was speaking about mutual interests and how Russia and Venezuela's aligns as opposed to say, western nations.

ah, now I understand why the uk is so closely allied with saudi arabia

what stake do you have irl w/r/t uncritically supporting the worst sort of US interventionism? Did you support the contras in Nicaragua as well? Pro tip: anyone the US supports is bad, full stop.

― Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, May 1, 2019 6:22 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Saying US involvement sucks doesn't contradict the notion that Russian involvement sucks even more. Plus looking at the history of US involvement, Venezuela is at the moment, very far from the worst. Also very far from the worst Russia has offered outside and within its borders. As for the idea that anyone the US supports is bad, full stop, I don't know what constitutes good to you but US involvement in Taiwan and South Korea are much better than the alternatives they were facing. Realist foreign policy is a scourge, but let's not pretend that the US are the only one doing it being hawkish fuckery in this world. And any position in which you are mad for Gaido demonstrating opposition (which seems weird to me if you believe in democracy) and economic sanctions, you also have to be mad at the notion Rosneft as collected half the bonds of PVSDA and that Maduro has falsified the latest elections and the humanitarian crisis the citizens are facing. I'm mad at both. I don't think Bolton or Trump or Rubio are doing anything good to alleviate the situation, but let's remember that Maduro was offered a fair and peaceful electoral process and denied it.

My position answers this crucial question: under which sphere of influence can choose their future? I think that could possibly happen within the influence of the US/Europe and with elections. I don't think it will ever happen with North Korea/Russia/China/Turkey/Iran which are more or less the countries that are sustaining Maduro's power at the moment, who refuses elections.

It's weird to live in Miami, where just about every one of my Venezuelan students loathes Trump with every corpuscle in their body, is liberal on just about every position we debate here, yet wants Maduro gone. I can't judge them.

You should stick to films, where you actually seem to have a clue

guess what?

Lol. As if the fucking Marshall Plan is anything comparable to what America is up to in Central and South America.

Shitshow

It's weird to live in Miami, where just about every one of my Venezuelan students loathes Trump with every corpuscle in their body, is liberal on just about every position we debate here, yet wants Maduro gone. I can't judge them.

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), 2. maj 2019 04:12 (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think this is weird at all? It's a battle between two autocrats, we don't actually have to take sides, it's okay to want both of them gone.

Tertium non datur, Fred. There can be no other way.

To be liberal and want Maduro gone is totally on line with what I'd expect. It's all over this thread as well.

but let's remember that Maduro was offered a fair and peaceful electoral process and denied it.

When was this?

The US and Guaido position aiui is that Guaido is the President and elections will follow at some unspecified point in the future but that Maduro can’t take part in them.

The EU has frequently called for new elections but, to date, that hasn’t been the position of the Venezuelan opposition or the US - there hasn’t been any guarantee that the former would participate or the latter would recognise. It has only been in the last few days that the domestic opposition (and the improbably-named Stalin Gonzalez) have suggested that new elections might be a way of resolving the issue but idk if that is ‘policy’ as such.

There is every chance that, if an internationally-mediated negotiation took place and new elections were on the table, that Maduro would reject them but there hasn’t been an internationally-mediated negotiation yet.

By and large, I think the opposition uniting behind a call for new elections would be much more tactically effective in getting people out on the street than trying to get them to recognise Guaido fwiw.

but let's remember that Maduro was offered a fair and peaceful electoral process and denied it.
When was this?

How about last year?

That Guaido = Owen Smith tweet is totally otm. If the US did it right then surely they needed someone from the military. Maybe it's the liberal disease of wanting to appear credible by backing a career politician.