The Colombia/Ecuador/Venezuela Mess or Let's Place Bets on How Long Before the U.S. Backs a Colombian War With Venezuela

Oh come on, sanctions aren't meant to wreck the economy, they're punishments for turning into a dictatorship.

It would be much easier to take the US’ actions in good faith as a defence of democracy had they not spent the last 20 years backing coup attempts

This is the weirdest and stupidest thing you've written yet. Only 20?

In terms of power politics, whatever policies Guaido favored early on in this struggle, it is inevitable that he would seek the US as an ally and move his policy toward accommodating US desires. Because atm Trump (and Bolton) form US policy, the required level of accommodation will be thinly disguised capitulation. Whether or not this started as a US-backed coup, it seems unavoidable that US greed will seize the opportunity to reshape it into one. The Venezuelan people will be lucky to get out of this without sinking into a puppet government and debt-slavery for half a century.

wait so now you're saying we *shouldn't* take the US' actions in good faith? and yet you were defending the sanctions before?

pro tip: US interventions are never for the reasons we say they are, follow the money

I keep coming back to Alfred's "Maduro is shit, but he's OUR shit" sentiment that was, y'know, expressed by actual people living in Venezuela

this whole situation is radiaating bad vibes from every crevice. it's giving me hives if i allow myself to catastrophize :(
i basically don't trust much of anything the USA has ever done wrt Latin America

radiaaaaaating lol

I keep coming back to Alfred's "Maduro is shit, but he's OUR shit" sentiment that was, y'know, expressed by actual people living in Venezuela

― sleeve, Saturday, February 9, 2019 2:07 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

As I said upthread, this is far from the truth. You have competing imperial interests in Venezuelan oil.

Fred you're way out of line.

I never said that! Students living here whose families thread Chavez and Maduro shaped my perspective.

I meant Fred B in case that wasn't clear :)

no, not you, the sleeve quote.

sorry, I thought that was you quoting other people you knew earlier? my apologies if incorrect but I remember the quote distinctly - "he's shit, but he's our shit, keep your nose out of our shit"

I don't think I even quoted it secondhand. Actually, my students want Maduro gone, and I've seen the strange-bedfellows approach b/w the Trump administration and the parents of the students who have no butter or meat.

fair enough, and I apologize again, not sure where I got that from.

I don't think that the "he's shit, but he's our shit, keep your nose out of our shit" mentality would be way off that being said. Even if I, white dude living in Canada, thinks it is not exactly that.

The only goood about Fred's busted ranting is that it has allowed others (and especially SV) to write some informative posts. But ultimately we only need to know because our governments feel the need to poke their nose in.

I hope we can all agree that one of the punishments for rigging elections should be to lose your electability, right? That's fair, no?

― Frederik B, Saturday, 9 February 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Or Guaido. The idea that we should just continue letting the party that can only get 40-45% at national level run anything is insane to me.

― Frederik B, Saturday, 9 February 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Who are we to punish Venezuela, or to continue letting a country do this or that just because the news cycle turns around every now and then and decides that something must be done (especially when such poor bad-faith understanding is perpetuated by western media - look at Fred's posting on it and shake your head but its useful to see and what we all need to fight here). The US had Trump elected on about 40%. May is in a minority government in a flawed first past the post system. WE have no right to judge what Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea are up to. This is white, male, western entitlement in western countries that brutalise the poor, migrants and minorities (in the UK = the number of hungry children and homeless, benefits sanction for the poorest, our record and public conversation on trans rights, brutal and humiliating deportation of migrants that have the right to live here). WE have no right.

In Brazil ofc Lula was jailed and stoppped from standing - he would've beaten Bolsanaro. That a negotiated solution should include such a ppl is just nonsense. This is a Venezuelan problem mainly.

Ultimately its a money making opportunity for outside actors - Maduro goes, the movement destroyed. We've seen what has happened in parts of Eastern Europe where the EU tolerates Poland and Hungary who were 'liberalised'. That the EU recognised the opposition is laughable.

It would be much easier to take the US’ actions in good faith as a defence of democracy had they not spent the last 20 years backing coup attempts

This is the weirdest and stupidest thing you've written yet. Only 20?

― Frederik B, Saturday, 9 February 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

What is it that you are even saying here? So you recognise there is more than 20 years of coup attempts by western actors - so it should be bad and yet you back more intervention and punishment via sanctions (even though you decry the murder and hunger in Venezuela by backing sanctions that will make a bad situation worse?)

btw don't answer that I don't want to know.

Yes, from context I thought it would be pretty obvious that was a reference to attempts to undermine MVR / PSUV in power from the point of Chavez’ election twenty years ago but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The idea that we should just continue letting the party that can only get 40-45% at national level run anything is insane to me.

LOL, what a stupid statement.

I've just done a Fred, taken a cursory ill-informed look at Danish politics, and discovered no political party in Denmark has won over 40% of the vote in a General Election since 1964.

Tom, Denmark is a multi-party democracy, like Venezuela actually. The current coalition won 51,9% of the vote last election.

Btw, this is basically the central part of what xyzzz is saying: But ultimately we only need to know because our governments feel the need to poke their nose in. It's just a complete disregard for anyone other than ourselves. Narcissism, basically.

Winning 56-41 is a stunning landslide which I basically don't think has ever happened in Denmark?

I don't know anything about Danish politics, you don't know anything about UK politics, Venezuelan politics etc etc - I'm happy not to post anything more about Danish politics, the ball's in your court.

Thanks, I'll continue, I'm clearly better at this than you are.

Making an arse of yourself on ILX? You're one of the market leaders, for sure.

the glorious revolution (choose yr own preferred faction) would no doubt already be in action if fred wasnt in yr sights folks eh

guys wrong itt. plenty shitetalk itt besides him. smells of a pile on.

yeah nerdy p would right there to provide identical takes, nice catch

lol remember when freddie got banned and nerdstrom showed up almost immediately to pick up the "i sure do hate glenn greenwald" shitposting

You can see in Fred's posting why the likes of North Korea had to get the bomb.

Just thank your lucky stars he is an internet film crit writing in Danish. If he had any political ambitions Fred could be dangerous.

You're utterly deranged.

Keep going like this.

fred u might be done

https://fair.org/home/western-media-fall-in-lockstep-for-cheap-trump-rubio-venezuela-aid-pr-stunt/

Learning of Abrams' (public) full CV when it comes to uh foreign misadventures was kinda stunning to me. Shoulda been hung decades ago.

yeah he's a fucking monster, if there was any lingering doubt about what a bad idea US involvement is here, Abrams being part of it should have erased those concerns

can't shake his evil fucking laughter a little over 15 minutes into this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ig0YvJCh5w

I think it's a reasonable proposition that an US backed coup, even with some **gasp** privatization, is a much better alternative than a Russia-backed dictatorship/proper coup that has ripped the country apart for the last few years. I don't see a realistic third alternative anyway, maybe ShariVari has an idea.

I think it's a reasonable proposition that an US backed coup, even with some **gasp** privatization, is a much better alternative than a Russia-backed dictatorship

You're adorable.

Thanks, trying my best. But now to engage with the idea...

I think if you'd read SV's posts you might he noticed he's already spent a good deal of time talking about alternatives to Trump getting a war all of his own and/or Maduro carrying on as before.

Fred, are you familiar with the phrase "caught between the devil and the deep blue sea" or "jumping out the frying pan and into the fire"? That's where ordinary Venezuelans are caught atm.

But now to engage with the idea...

There is no idea to engage with. You're presenting a false dichotomy - just a happy lil' American-backed coup that will quickly resolve into a liberal democracy with some privatization, no biggie. Which would, of course, be all but unprecedented in our history of regime change.

Chavismo comes from a completely different place to Putin. Like, there are social movements behind the thing.

Chavismo comes from a completely different place to Putin. Like, there are social movements behind the thing.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, February 10, 2019 3:13 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I would not call what is happening right now 'Chavismo'. I think that ship sailed a long time ago, we all know the social movement has been replaced by an economy that has been in the hands of the military and that the PDVSA is barely in the hands of the people.

If that were so Maduro's vote would've collapsed completely and that just isn't the case.

Stop saying - like Fred was doing - 'we all know' or 'we can all agree'. There isn't going to be any of that.

There is no idea to engage with. You're presenting a false dichotomy - just a happy lil' American-backed coup that will quickly resolve into a liberal democracy with some privatization, no biggie. Which would, of course, be all but unprecedented in our history of regime change.

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Sunday, February 10, 2019 3:12 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think an American backed coup will quickly resolve into a liberal democracy anytime soon. I have made no such claims. Nothing will be resolved quickly. The moment they added Abrams to spearhead the whole thing I lost hope for the liberal democracy with would all wish for Venezuela in this thread. However, I'm just imagining there is quite a decent chance the situation improves under the conditions of an American-backed coup, only because the present is just that horrible and little seem to budge Maduro.