The Colombia/Ecuador/Venezuela Mess or Let's Place Bets on How Long Before the U.S. Backs a Colombian War With Venezuela

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I smell a lot of bullshit:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080306/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_farc_laptop

Hurting 2, Thursday, 6 March 2008 01:35 (eleven years ago) Permalink

uh, why is it so hard to believe chavez wd have close ties with the farc? he is a sleazebag of the first order, a provocateur, and has it out for u.s. foreign policy in south america (and rightfully by the way, things are a dirty fucking shame w/r/t the minimal aid we offer in exchange for a huge and heavy hand in the politics –- legitimately –– and an even larger CIA presence waging whatever kind of illicit war they have been supporting since the middle '60s?

remy bean, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:00 (eleven years ago) Permalink

close parenthetical

remy bean, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:00 (eleven years ago) Permalink

It's not impossible that he has ties, I just smell bullshit in this whole unfolding of events, especially since yesterday's story claimed FARC planned to make a dirty bomb.

Hurting 2, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:02 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Venezuela contends the texts are lies and fabrications.

If so, they are expertly done.

I love this. It reminds me of Strange Brew, where the bad guy is in court and he's like "I'd like to point out that these tapes have not been faked, or altered in any way. In fact they have time coding, which is very hard to fake."

kingkongvsgodzilla, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:07 (eleven years ago) Permalink

they probably wouldn't bother, given the efficacy of their kidnapping as a guiding in national politics

remy bean, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:08 (eleven years ago) Permalink

What else would Venezuela say? "Oh, oops" ?

remy bean, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:10 (eleven years ago) Permalink

In a document dated Feb. 9, Marquez passes along Chavez's thanks for a $150,000 gift when he was imprisoned from 1992-94 for leading a failed coup — and indicates Chavez's desire to smear Uribe.

In it, Marquez says Venezuela wants documentation of damage by Colombia's military to "the civilian population, also images of bombardments in the jungle and its devastation — to use as a denunciation before the world."

"smear"

Hurting 2, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:16 (eleven years ago) Permalink

ehh, i still have a lot of faith in uribe. not to suggest he is totally above-board, but at least during his first term he was relatively effective on the fundraising fronts, and talks with w/ AUC/FARC at least became (briefly) effective.

remy bean, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:24 (eleven years ago) Permalink

four months pass...

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/chavez-russian.html

lol

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 22:23 (ten years ago) Permalink

maybe this will make dumb americans notice the large clusterfucked continent to the immediate south

remy bean, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 22:29 (ten years ago) Permalink

if it hadn't been for carter signing into law the ban on assassinations for heads-of-state, i would have a perfect solution. 'cuz it's obvious uribe doesn't know how to handle his shit w/o CIA involvement in his sketchyass AUC politix

remy bean, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 22:30 (ten years ago) Permalink

If it's that new destroyer that can't defend against anything, then they might have a chance

Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 23:09 (ten years ago) Permalink

Exocet missiles to thread. etc.

Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 23:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

Smuggling chicken parts???

Pylon Gnasher, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 09:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

four years pass...

Report: Launch of CIA ‘cocaine coup’ turned on Romney win

For more than a year the CIA has been trafficking 300 kilos of cocaine a month from Ecuador to Chile for export on to Europe, according to recent credible media reports from Santiago, the Chilean capital.

Proceeds from the 300 kilo-a-month business have been used to create a war-chest to finance a Cocaine Coup in Ecuador that was scheduled to be “green-lighted” after the expected win in the just-concluded U.S. Presidential election—expected, at least, by some Agency officials—of Mitt Romney.

It's a CIA “Ay, there’s the rub” moment.

He's a leftist. Isn't that enough?

The machinations were part of a plan to topple current Ecuador President Rafael Correa, who is unpopular in Washington.

An unexpected side effect of the revelation of the plan, which has received little publicity, has been to focus an observer's attention on what's going on in the drug trade in Ecuador lately. The country's history in the drug business, almost as rich as Switzerland's with banks, goes back a long way.

Elvis Telecom, Sunday, 25 November 2012 01:06 (six years ago) Permalink

one year passes...

http://caracaschronicles.com/2014/02/20/the-game-changed/

Mordy , Friday, 21 February 2014 20:33 (five years ago) Permalink

I've got a former lover and a couple of frightened students trying to find a place with power. This is depressing:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/02/20/voices-latin-america/5644541/

Bryan Fairy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 21 February 2014 20:34 (five years ago) Permalink

Any reliable commentary on what's going on there? Because all I'm seeing in most places is competing ideologies. I know my history and I don't doubt that the US would like to see the govt go but the Counterpunch left's assumption that all the opposition are fascists and any journalist who criticises Maduro is a CIA shill is embarrassing.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Wednesday, 26 February 2014 17:52 (five years ago) Permalink

Ignacio Portes on Twitter is always very good but I'm having trouble finding longform pieces by him.

Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Wednesday, 26 February 2014 19:25 (five years ago) Permalink

This is the only unbiased piece I've found so far.

venezuelablog.tumblr.com/post/76591076425/who-was-responsible-for-yesterdays-violence-in

Portes seems reliable. Thanks ShariVari. I do think the left has a blind spot when it comes to acknowledging Chavez/Maduro's failings, as if to criticise the govt at all would be playing into the hands of conservatives who want a coup.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Wednesday, 26 February 2014 20:28 (five years ago) Permalink

Maduro's a thug

A specialist in foolery (Michael White), Wednesday, 26 February 2014 20:52 (five years ago) Permalink

I can't look at this with anything other than sadness, the degeneration from leftist savior to aparatus of political oppression being so predictable

How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 26 February 2014 20:55 (five years ago) Permalink

A lot of friends on the left seem to think it will do the cause harm if they acknowledge the chavismos' crimes and fuck-ups. I think the risk lies in not doing so.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Thursday, 27 February 2014 10:02 (five years ago) Permalink

Nuance is hard to come by in these situations. If most of the professional journalists writing about Venezuela, Ukraine or Syria only have a very superficial understanding of the situations there, it's unlikely many other people, unless they have been following them closely for a number of years, are going to have the kind of depth of insight that you need to take a balanced view. It's also a reflection of the move towards news outlets being competing echo chambers - readers can simply select news sources that agree with them. Even papers like The Guardian have blurred the lines between comment and reporting to such a degree that 'balance' seems to be sought through having five journalists take one highly ideological stance and one or two take the completely opposite one.

That said, i can sympathise with the desire to push back when the mainstream media is so overwhelmingly backing one narrow viewpoint. If you think that this is a right-wing coup against a democratically-elected leftist government, and most papers of note are telling you it's not - ignoring any facts that don't fit their narrative, the temptation to do more or less the same is always going to be there.

Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Thursday, 27 February 2014 11:46 (five years ago) Permalink

OTM but it doesn't create a satisfying dialogue and it's depressing to see the left ignore, for example, Venezuela's massive rape problem. Even if unsavoury characters like Lopez are hijacking the student protests for their own ends, it doesn't mean that the students' objections, or those of other citizens, should be brushed aside. It feels like as long as the US and the shady Venezuelan right want Maduro out then the left can only mention the country's real problems in a handwaving "Of course… but…" way.

I need to read more about the likelihood of an actual coup because obvs there's a difference between protesters wanting a leader to step down and a full-scale Pinochet-style armed coup, eg in Ukraine there's either been a revolution or a coup depending on who you speak to.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Thursday, 27 February 2014 12:45 (five years ago) Permalink

I've been trying to discuss this on Twitter and boy do people not give a shit, so thanks ILX

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Thursday, 27 February 2014 13:00 (five years ago) Permalink

I can't listen to it at work but there's an interview / podcast with Ignacio Portes here:

http://www.r1.co.nz/podcasts/Olivier%20-%20Ignacio%20Portes.mp3

Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Friday, 28 February 2014 12:00 (five years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure Chavez or Maduro were ever saviors

Bryan Fairy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 28 February 2014 12:07 (five years ago) Permalink

three months pass...

I don't know much about this, but after catching a couple of news reports full of rich kids with nice clothes, fancy tents, and smart phones trying their best to look put-upon and oppressed, the protests looked awfully stage directed to me, and the hijacking of the vocabulary of revolution was pretty infuriating. Kind of hard to muster sympathy for the "poor little rich boy"

Dan I., Friday, 27 June 2014 17:02 (four years ago) Permalink

and yeah, the whole scene screamed "CIA"

Dan I., Friday, 27 June 2014 17:03 (four years ago) Permalink

one year passes...

Probably deserves a new thread, but Venezuela is looking really bad right now.

Looting On the Rise As Venezuela Runs Out of Food, Electricity

On Wednesday, the Venezuelan Chamber of Food (Cavidea) said in a statement that most companies only have 15 days worth of stocked food.

According to the union, the production of food will continue to dwindle because raw materials as well as local and foreign inputs are depleted.

In the statement, Cavidea reported that they are 300 days overdue on payments to suppliers and it’s been 200 days since the national government last authorized the purchase of dollars under the foreign currency control system.

Abandon hype all ye who enter here (Sanpaku), Sunday, 1 May 2016 23:13 (three years ago) Permalink

Not headline worthy yet, I guess:

Hungry Venezuelans Hunt Dogs, Cats, Pigeons as Food Runs Out

The population’s desperation has begun to show, with looting and robberies for food increasing all the time. This Sunday, May 1, six Venezuelan military officials were arrested for stealing goats to ease their hunger, as there was no food at the Fort Manaure military base. The week before, various regions of the country saw widespread looting of shopping malls, pharmacies, supermarkets and food trucks, all while people chanted “we are hungry.”

Abandon hype all ye who enter here (Sanpaku), Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:22 (three years ago) Permalink

In addition to dogs and cats, people are also killing pigeons to stave off hunger (El Nacional)

nakhchivan, Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:39 (three years ago) Permalink

they should probably the kill the pigeons first and eat the cats and dogs afterwards if necessary

nakhchivan, Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:41 (three years ago) Permalink

bread + circuses work but the bread part is non-negotiable

Mordy, Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:42 (three years ago) Permalink

pigeons are better than bread

nakhchivan, Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:42 (three years ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

bread + circuses work but the bread part is non-negotiable

'We want food!', Venezuelans cry at protest near presidency

we're kinda studiously ignoring this bc politically inconvenient yes?

Mordy, Friday, 3 June 2016 05:00 (three years ago) Permalink

I don't know, there hasn't been that much talk of the right-wing coup in Brazil either? I guess because it's really hard to pin on Hillary...

But, really, the left's love of Venezuela was always going to backfire. Oil cronyism is bad whether the leaders are right or left-wing.

Frederik B, Friday, 3 June 2016 10:08 (three years ago) Permalink

when your economy is based on oil, it suffers when oil prices collapse.

socka flocka-jones (man alive), Friday, 3 June 2016 19:18 (three years ago) Permalink

that def a big piece of it but the currency + price controls don't work so well either. the oil collapse sparked the crisis but the economic system exacerbated it.

Mordy, Friday, 3 June 2016 19:23 (three years ago) Permalink

The Chavez years had an economic stability that hadn't been seen since the 70s iirc, largely by virtue of high oil prices. The social and development programmes he implemented came at a price that wasn't sustainable in a crash and, having come in on the back of twenty years of disaster, there wasn't much chance to build up reserves that would allow them to ride it out.

On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Friday, 3 June 2016 19:40 (three years ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

http://www.npr.org/2016/06/08/481225008/bust-times-in-oil-rich-venezuela-the-banks-dont-have-money-to-give-out

Terry Gross interviews NYT reporter Nicholas Casey about Venezuela

Mordy, Monday, 20 June 2016 02:12 (three years ago) Permalink

CASEY: Well, yeah. A lot of people are looking at who or what is to blame. There's a lot of things going on right now. One of them is the legacy in the years and aftermath after Hugo Chavez. There was a huge amount of hope throughout the left in Latin America when Chavez came to power.

He was saying many things that no one else was saying and talking about inequality in terms that hadn't been heard in Latin America for years. Unfortunately, what followed was years of mismanagement on every level - a lot of corruption, misunderstandings of how the economy worked or how to fix it.

You know, I'll give you one example that you see a lot. It is causing a lot of the problems in Venezuela - is price controls. During those years, they brought the price of selling something lower than what it cost to make it. So if you wanted to get milk, it was at a very inexpensive price, which was great if you were poor.

The problem was if you were a farmer or, you know, owned an operation that was producing milk. And you couldn't produce it for the price that it was going to be sold for. So what happened next? Well, you just didn't produce it anymore.

So you started to see this huge collapse of production throughout the country. People stopped making beans. People stopped making rice. Venezuela went from being an exporter of meat to importing it. And one by one, all of these things stopped being made in the country.

Well, it wasn't the end of the world then, because there was so much money from the oil that you could just buy it. You could buy it for dollars. And the response was - well, we'll just import it. We can bring all these things in. It's a rich country. Well, this continued for years.

But the problem next came when the price of oil collapsed. And there wasn't any money to buy the imports. And there was no way to make them. So just what happened was - everything started to disappear. So that's part of the reason why Venezuela is where it is. That said, called the proximate cause - is years of mismanagement from these policies, dating back to Hugo Chavez.

Mordy, Monday, 20 June 2016 02:19 (three years ago) Permalink

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/20/world/americas/venezuelans-ransack-stores-as-hunger-stalks-crumbling-nation.html

A staggering 87 percent of Venezuelans say they do not have money to buy enough food, the most recent assessment of living standards by Simón Bolívar University found.

About 72 percent of monthly wages are being spent just to buy food, according to the Center for Documentation and Social Analysis, a research group associated with the Venezuelan Teachers Federation.

In April, it found that a family would need the equivalent of 16 minimum-wage salaries to properly feed itself.

Ask people in this city when they last ate a meal, and many will respond that it was not today.

Mordy, Monday, 20 June 2016 03:11 (three years ago) Permalink

fuk

socka flocka-jones (man alive), Monday, 20 June 2016 03:17 (three years ago) Permalink

three months pass...

Not binding and is unlikely to derail the whole process but...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/02/colombia-referendum-rejects-peace-deal-with-farc

Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Monday, 3 October 2016 08:03 (two years ago) Permalink

"No one is so foolish as to prefer war to peace". In your face, Herodotus! The modern era has sure proved that wrong.

two crickets sassing each other (dowd), Monday, 3 October 2016 11:35 (two years ago) Permalink

Can you give a single counter example where US involvement improved the baseline wellbeing of the population?

Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:28 (one month ago) Permalink

have heard good things about the Marshall PLan

don't mock my smock or i'll clean your clock (silby), Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:28 (one month ago) Permalink

You should stick to films, where you actually seem to have a clue

Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:29 (one month ago) Permalink

Marshall Plan was not intervention, it was cleanup

Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:30 (one month ago) Permalink

If it's intervention you want, something happened right before the Marshall Plan which I know my country was quite happy with.

Frederik B, Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:31 (one month ago) Permalink

And sorry for saying involvement when I meant i tervention

Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:31 (one month ago) Permalink

OK then let's talk about the last 65 years, come on

Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:32 (one month ago) Permalink

Balkan?

Frederik B, Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:33 (one month ago) Permalink

Nope, look up the Stasi Trg mines and follow the money

Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:34 (one month ago) Permalink

Good try though

Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:35 (one month ago) Permalink

Also that was not unilateral

Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:36 (one month ago) Permalink

Again, reads like parody.

Frederik B, Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:36 (one month ago) Permalink

Pot meet kettle

Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, 1 May 2019 22:37 (one month ago) Permalink

I was speaking about mutual interests and how Russia and Venezuela's aligns as opposed to say, western nations.

ah, now I understand why the uk is so closely allied with saudi arabia

ogmor, Wednesday, 1 May 2019 23:43 (one month ago) Permalink

what stake do you have irl w/r/t uncritically supporting the worst sort of US interventionism? Did you support the contras in Nicaragua as well? Pro tip: anyone the US supports is bad, full stop.

― Emperor Tonetta Ketchup (sleeve), Wednesday, May 1, 2019 6:22 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Saying US involvement sucks doesn't contradict the notion that Russian involvement sucks even more. Plus looking at the history of US involvement, Venezuela is at the moment, very far from the worst. Also very far from the worst Russia has offered outside and within its borders. As for the idea that anyone the US supports is bad, full stop, I don't know what constitutes good to you but US involvement in Taiwan and South Korea are much better than the alternatives they were facing. Realist foreign policy is a scourge, but let's not pretend that the US are the only one doing it being hawkish fuckery in this world. And any position in which you are mad for Gaido demonstrating opposition (which seems weird to me if you believe in democracy) and economic sanctions, you also have to be mad at the notion Rosneft as collected half the bonds of PVSDA and that Maduro has falsified the latest elections and the humanitarian crisis the citizens are facing. I'm mad at both. I don't think Bolton or Trump or Rubio are doing anything good to alleviate the situation, but let's remember that Maduro was offered a fair and peaceful electoral process and denied it.

My position answers this crucial question: under which sphere of influence can choose their future? I think that could possibly happen within the influence of the US/Europe and with elections. I don't think it will ever happen with North Korea/Russia/China/Turkey/Iran which are more or less the countries that are sustaining Maduro's power at the moment, who refuses elections.

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 2 May 2019 02:06 (one month ago) Permalink

It's weird to live in Miami, where just about every one of my Venezuelan students loathes Trump with every corpuscle in their body, is liberal on just about every position we debate here, yet wants Maduro gone. I can't judge them.

recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 2 May 2019 02:12 (one month ago) Permalink

You should stick to films, where you actually seem to have a clue

guess what?

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 2 May 2019 03:28 (one month ago) Permalink

Lol. As if the fucking Marshall Plan is anything comparable to what America is up to in Central and South America.

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 2 May 2019 06:05 (one month ago) Permalink

Shitshow

It's weird to live in Miami, where just about every one of my Venezuelan students loathes Trump with every corpuscle in their body, is liberal on just about every position we debate here, yet wants Maduro gone. I can't judge them.

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), 2. maj 2019 04:12 (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think this is weird at all? It's a battle between two autocrats, we don't actually have to take sides, it's okay to want both of them gone.

Frederik B, Thursday, 2 May 2019 07:53 (one month ago) Permalink

Tertium non datur, Fred. There can be no other way.

pomenitul, Thursday, 2 May 2019 08:07 (one month ago) Permalink

To be liberal and want Maduro gone is totally on line with what I'd expect. It's all over this thread as well.

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 2 May 2019 09:06 (one month ago) Permalink

but let's remember that Maduro was offered a fair and peaceful electoral process and denied it.

When was this?

The US and Guaido position aiui is that Guaido is the President and elections will follow at some unspecified point in the future but that Maduro can’t take part in them.

The EU has frequently called for new elections but, to date, that hasn’t been the position of the Venezuelan opposition or the US - there hasn’t been any guarantee that the former would participate or the latter would recognise. It has only been in the last few days that the domestic opposition (and the improbably-named Stalin Gonzalez) have suggested that new elections might be a way of resolving the issue but idk if that is ‘policy’ as such.

There is every chance that, if an internationally-mediated negotiation took place and new elections were on the table, that Maduro would reject them but there hasn’t been an internationally-mediated negotiation yet.

ShariVari, Thursday, 2 May 2019 09:27 (one month ago) Permalink

By and large, I think the opposition uniting behind a call for new elections would be much more tactically effective in getting people out on the street than trying to get them to recognise Guaido fwiw.

ShariVari, Thursday, 2 May 2019 09:36 (one month ago) Permalink

but let's remember that Maduro was offered a fair and peaceful electoral process and denied it.
When was this?

How about last year?

Frederik B, Thursday, 2 May 2019 09:43 (one month ago) Permalink

That Guaido = Owen Smith tweet is totally otm. If the US did it right then surely they needed someone from the military. Maybe it's the liberal disease of wanting to appear credible by backing a career politician.

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 2 May 2019 10:07 (one month ago) Permalink

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and national security adviser John Bolton just left Pentagon following meeting with acting defense secretary Patrick Shanahan in secure conference room known as ‘The Tank’ to discuss military options for Venezuela, per senior defense official

— Lucas Tomlinson (@LucasFoxNews) May 3, 2019

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, 3 May 2019 15:12 (one month ago) Permalink

i’m sure this military intervention will be the one where america finally gets it right

michael keaton IS jim thirlwell IN ‘foetaljuice’ (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 3 May 2019 15:46 (one month ago) Permalink

Fewer than 100,000 civilian casualties, then?

A is for (Aimless), Friday, 3 May 2019 17:58 (one month ago) Permalink

John Bolton determined to be Dumb Kissinger to the Dumb Nixon, huh?

mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 3 May 2019 18:08 (one month ago) Permalink

Fewer than 100,000 civilian casualties, then?


well, I’d be reluctant to make any such promises at this early stage but let’s remember that the definition of ‘enemy combatant’ is pretty flexible so that should help keep the numbers from getting too embarrassing

anyway, if they didn’t want to get turned into a fine red mist by extremely expensive american ordnance they shouldn’t have been attending that wedding / shopping at that market / driving erratically / looking askance at a Brave Troop anyway amirite

michael keaton IS jim thirlwell IN ‘foetaljuice’ (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 3 May 2019 18:25 (one month ago) Permalink

sad Brazil / ILX film squad convergence

Bolsonaro’s government just declared that Kleber Mendonça Filho has 30 days to return R$2.2 million of financing from NEIGHBORING SOUNDS. That’s over $550,000 for a film that was released in 2012. https://t.co/H2D0Eh6gtm

— Violet Lucca (@unbuttonmyeyes) May 3, 2019

Simon H., Friday, 3 May 2019 22:09 (one month ago) Permalink

^that author is fully conversant with the crimes of Maduro, but seems not to fully examine the consequences of Guaido embracing Trump & Bolton's path for Venezuela as the price of US support. The lukewarm support for Guaido she hears voiced by US progressives is due to their long experience with neo-cons and the consequences of neo-con policies. She clearly sees the frying pan Venezualans are in, but doesn't see the fire that they shall be jumping into if Guaido becomes a dependent US client.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 13 May 2019 03:50 (one month ago) Permalink

Assuming that a latin american does not know the long history of US intervention in Latin America is exactly what she is criticising.

Van Horn Street, Monday, 13 May 2019 04:04 (one month ago) Permalink

Is she really arguing Venezuela would be better off turning into Guatemala?

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 13 May 2019 04:10 (one month ago) Permalink

Yeah the leader of the Popular Will, a party that has been recognized within the sphere of the Socialist International, his only goal is to turn the nation into a humanitarian crisis of unseen proportions. And horrible fascists states like Sweden (gasp!) and Iceland (oh no!) and Costa Rica (yikes!) are fully behind the notion that only a destroyed and plundered Venezuela is what is best for Venezuelans, including this writer who's trauma of having to leave her nation because of tyrant is really starting point of misunderstanding the situation to a degree only white dudes from beautiful campus can truly understand.

Van Horn Street, Monday, 13 May 2019 04:41 (one month ago) Permalink

his only goal is to turn the nation into a humanitarian crisis of unseen proportions.

If it comes to a US military intervention in aid of Guaido, which is very certainly on Bolton's Christmas list whether or not this is Guaido's present policy or intention, it very well could become a humanitarian crisis even more destructive and deadly than the humanitarian crisis already caused by Maduro's misgovernment. If the US government were not currently in the hands of men willing to inflict incalculable suffering on "enemy" nations, I would feel far more secure in the future course of US involvement as likely to bring benefit to the Venezuelan people. Trump & Bolton are capable of doing worse than Nixon & Kissinger, or Bush & Cheney.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 13 May 2019 04:54 (one month ago) Permalink

Yes, there is a long list of shit that could make the current crisis much worse. I think anyone is intelligent enough to understand that there can be ways in which Guaido becomes an interim president that presides over fair elections without having a civil war going on. I just think that negating whatever the Venezuelans diaspora is expressing is not going to help the situation, I think sanitizing Maduro (which is not something I have seen much here but I have seen elsewhere) is really not going to help. Claiming any support of Guaido is ideologically is neo-con is also not going to help. And also it is stupid. Some people need to stop with this stupid left-right dichotomy. Proof is that Trump does it.

Van Horn Street, Monday, 13 May 2019 05:22 (one month ago) Permalink

Someone from Venezuela:

Instead of supporting Guaidó’s work, progressives in North America have chosen to given vague and evasive statements (e.g. Bernie Sanders or Jagmeet Singh), or even to go as far as to voice their support of Maduro’s dictatorship (e.g. Ilhan Omar), often ignoring the pleas of their own Venezuelan constituents. They justify this by imposing North American political narratives on an incredibly unique and complex situation.

Aimless immediately:

that author is fully conversant with the crimes of Maduro, but seems not to fully examine the consequences of Guaido embracing Trump & Bolton's path for Venezuela as the price of US support. The lukewarm support for Guaido she hears voiced by US progressives is due to their long experience with neo-cons and the consequences of neo-con policies. She clearly sees the frying pan Venezualans are in, but doesn't see the fire that they shall be jumping into if Guaido becomes a dependent US client.

Frederik B, Monday, 13 May 2019 06:32 (one month ago) Permalink

"But since interim president Juan Guaidó started his efforts to restore democracy in Venezuela"

A bowl of wrong from this girl.

xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 May 2019 09:23 (one month ago) Permalink

"I think anyone is intelligent enough to understand that there can be ways in which Guaido becomes an interim president that presides over fair elections without having a civil war going on."

You overestimate Guaido's intelligence.

xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 May 2019 09:27 (one month ago) Permalink

You are embarassing.

Van Horn Street, Monday, 13 May 2019 13:20 (one month ago) Permalink

Got quite hurt, then I turned off the kilfile for a second. VHS OTM.

Frederik B, Monday, 13 May 2019 13:33 (one month ago) Permalink

Haha @ "got quite hurt"

xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 May 2019 13:41 (one month ago) Permalink

often ignoring the pleas of their own Venezuelan constituents

No one individual has custody of the narrative about what the author admits is "an incredibly unique and complex situation". To confirm this, all one has to do is to compare the widely divergent narratives of US citizens regarding immigration. If the USA chooses an aggressive policy in regard to Venezuela, as guided by Bolton and Trump, I highly doubt that it will be informed by the Venezuelan constituents the author aligns with and what she will get instead is Bolton & gang justifying their actions "by imposing North American political narrative on an incredibly unique and complex situation".

iow, she doesn't see US policy will be trapped in its North American political narrative, regardless of her ardent desires for Venezuelans to be in charge of Venezuela's fate. Intervention comes in a lot of flavors, but I stand by my observation that she is imagining her preferred outcome will prevail, not arguing persuasively how there is a probable path to that outcome.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 13 May 2019 17:53 (one month ago) Permalink

Once again this purely the POV of a western witness.

With everything that has been laid down, if you can't understand how there is a path for the left and centre-left to help Guaido make fair elections happen without resorting to apocalyptic scenarios involving Abrams/Bolton/Trump then I suggest you take a step back from your personal preferences and biases. I hate Trump too. I will oppose any military intervention by the US and I have no trust Bolton and Abrams will find the right solution for Venezuela. I still support Guaido and fair elections and those things are not mutually exclusive. Maybe it is unfortunate that the opposition, the diaspora, reasonable governments across the world and Trump have chosen the same opposition leader as the hope for Venezuelan democracy, but I refuse to play the idiotic left vs right zero sum game. Or to show my woke understanding of the US military history and silence the voices of Venezuelans.

Van Horn Street, Monday, 13 May 2019 18:10 (one month ago) Permalink

Once again this purely the POV of a western witness.

Yes. How true.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 13 May 2019 19:25 (one month ago) Permalink

I still support Guaido and fair elections and those things are not mutually exclusive.

As I recall, the author of the piece did not say that the majority of US progressives were against Guaido or fair elections, mostly because this would not be true. Her complaint was about 'lukewarmness' from these sources.

I refuse to play the idiotic left vs right zero sum game.

Most people are already there with you, if you'd take the time to notice.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 13 May 2019 19:31 (one month ago) Permalink

but I refuse to play the idiotic left vs right zero sum game

You are brave and I, for one, salute you

xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 May 2019 20:58 (one month ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

Juan Guaidó travels around with “a personal astrologer.” pic.twitter.com/FRnkKlZDO6

— Tim Gill (@timgill924) June 4, 2019

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 5 June 2019 06:47 (two weeks ago) Permalink


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