The Colombia/Ecuador/Venezuela Mess or Let's Place Bets on How Long Before the U.S. Backs a Colombian War With Venezuela

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I smell a lot of bullshit:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080306/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_farc_laptop

Hurting 2, Thursday, 6 March 2008 01:35 (thirteen years ago) link

uh, why is it so hard to believe chavez wd have close ties with the farc? he is a sleazebag of the first order, a provocateur, and has it out for u.s. foreign policy in south america (and rightfully by the way, things are a dirty fucking shame w/r/t the minimal aid we offer in exchange for a huge and heavy hand in the politics –- legitimately –– and an even larger CIA presence waging whatever kind of illicit war they have been supporting since the middle '60s?

remy bean, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:00 (thirteen years ago) link

close parenthetical

remy bean, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:00 (thirteen years ago) link

It's not impossible that he has ties, I just smell bullshit in this whole unfolding of events, especially since yesterday's story claimed FARC planned to make a dirty bomb.

Hurting 2, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:02 (thirteen years ago) link

Venezuela contends the texts are lies and fabrications.

If so, they are expertly done.

I love this. It reminds me of Strange Brew, where the bad guy is in court and he's like "I'd like to point out that these tapes have not been faked, or altered in any way. In fact they have time coding, which is very hard to fake."

kingkongvsgodzilla, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:07 (thirteen years ago) link

they probably wouldn't bother, given the efficacy of their kidnapping as a guiding in national politics

remy bean, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:08 (thirteen years ago) link

What else would Venezuela say? "Oh, oops" ?

remy bean, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:10 (thirteen years ago) link

In a document dated Feb. 9, Marquez passes along Chavez's thanks for a $150,000 gift when he was imprisoned from 1992-94 for leading a failed coup — and indicates Chavez's desire to smear Uribe.

In it, Marquez says Venezuela wants documentation of damage by Colombia's military to "the civilian population, also images of bombardments in the jungle and its devastation — to use as a denunciation before the world."

"smear"

Hurting 2, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:16 (thirteen years ago) link

ehh, i still have a lot of faith in uribe. not to suggest he is totally above-board, but at least during his first term he was relatively effective on the fundraising fronts, and talks with w/ AUC/FARC at least became (briefly) effective.

remy bean, Thursday, 6 March 2008 02:24 (thirteen years ago) link

four months pass...

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/chavez-russian.html

lol

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 22:23 (thirteen years ago) link

maybe this will make dumb americans notice the large clusterfucked continent to the immediate south

remy bean, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 22:29 (thirteen years ago) link

if it hadn't been for carter signing into law the ban on assassinations for heads-of-state, i would have a perfect solution. 'cuz it's obvious uribe doesn't know how to handle his shit w/o CIA involvement in his sketchyass AUC politix

remy bean, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 22:30 (thirteen years ago) link

If it's that new destroyer that can't defend against anything, then they might have a chance

Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 23:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Exocet missiles to thread. etc.

Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 23:10 (thirteen years ago) link

Smuggling chicken parts???

Pylon Gnasher, Wednesday, 6 August 2008 09:18 (thirteen years ago) link

four years pass...

Report: Launch of CIA ‘cocaine coup’ turned on Romney win

For more than a year the CIA has been trafficking 300 kilos of cocaine a month from Ecuador to Chile for export on to Europe, according to recent credible media reports from Santiago, the Chilean capital.

Proceeds from the 300 kilo-a-month business have been used to create a war-chest to finance a Cocaine Coup in Ecuador that was scheduled to be “green-lighted” after the expected win in the just-concluded U.S. Presidential election—expected, at least, by some Agency officials—of Mitt Romney.

It's a CIA “Ay, there’s the rub” moment.

He's a leftist. Isn't that enough?

The machinations were part of a plan to topple current Ecuador President Rafael Correa, who is unpopular in Washington.

An unexpected side effect of the revelation of the plan, which has received little publicity, has been to focus an observer's attention on what's going on in the drug trade in Ecuador lately. The country's history in the drug business, almost as rich as Switzerland's with banks, goes back a long way.

Elvis Telecom, Sunday, 25 November 2012 01:06 (eight years ago) link

one year passes...

http://caracaschronicles.com/2014/02/20/the-game-changed/

Mordy , Friday, 21 February 2014 20:33 (seven years ago) link

I've got a former lover and a couple of frightened students trying to find a place with power. This is depressing:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/02/20/voices-latin-america/5644541/

Bryan Fairy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 21 February 2014 20:34 (seven years ago) link

Any reliable commentary on what's going on there? Because all I'm seeing in most places is competing ideologies. I know my history and I don't doubt that the US would like to see the govt go but the Counterpunch left's assumption that all the opposition are fascists and any journalist who criticises Maduro is a CIA shill is embarrassing.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Wednesday, 26 February 2014 17:52 (seven years ago) link

Ignacio Portes on Twitter is always very good but I'm having trouble finding longform pieces by him.

Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Wednesday, 26 February 2014 19:25 (seven years ago) link

This is the only unbiased piece I've found so far.

venezuelablog.tumblr.com/post/76591076425/who-was-responsible-for-yesterdays-violence-in

Portes seems reliable. Thanks ShariVari. I do think the left has a blind spot when it comes to acknowledging Chavez/Maduro's failings, as if to criticise the govt at all would be playing into the hands of conservatives who want a coup.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Wednesday, 26 February 2014 20:28 (seven years ago) link

Maduro's a thug

A specialist in foolery (Michael White), Wednesday, 26 February 2014 20:52 (seven years ago) link

I can't look at this with anything other than sadness, the degeneration from leftist savior to aparatus of political oppression being so predictable

How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 26 February 2014 20:55 (seven years ago) link

A lot of friends on the left seem to think it will do the cause harm if they acknowledge the chavismos' crimes and fuck-ups. I think the risk lies in not doing so.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Thursday, 27 February 2014 10:02 (seven years ago) link

Nuance is hard to come by in these situations. If most of the professional journalists writing about Venezuela, Ukraine or Syria only have a very superficial understanding of the situations there, it's unlikely many other people, unless they have been following them closely for a number of years, are going to have the kind of depth of insight that you need to take a balanced view. It's also a reflection of the move towards news outlets being competing echo chambers - readers can simply select news sources that agree with them. Even papers like The Guardian have blurred the lines between comment and reporting to such a degree that 'balance' seems to be sought through having five journalists take one highly ideological stance and one or two take the completely opposite one.

That said, i can sympathise with the desire to push back when the mainstream media is so overwhelmingly backing one narrow viewpoint. If you think that this is a right-wing coup against a democratically-elected leftist government, and most papers of note are telling you it's not - ignoring any facts that don't fit their narrative, the temptation to do more or less the same is always going to be there.

Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Thursday, 27 February 2014 11:46 (seven years ago) link

OTM but it doesn't create a satisfying dialogue and it's depressing to see the left ignore, for example, Venezuela's massive rape problem. Even if unsavoury characters like Lopez are hijacking the student protests for their own ends, it doesn't mean that the students' objections, or those of other citizens, should be brushed aside. It feels like as long as the US and the shady Venezuelan right want Maduro out then the left can only mention the country's real problems in a handwaving "Of course… but…" way.

I need to read more about the likelihood of an actual coup because obvs there's a difference between protesters wanting a leader to step down and a full-scale Pinochet-style armed coup, eg in Ukraine there's either been a revolution or a coup depending on who you speak to.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Thursday, 27 February 2014 12:45 (seven years ago) link

I've been trying to discuss this on Twitter and boy do people not give a shit, so thanks ILX

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Thursday, 27 February 2014 13:00 (seven years ago) link

I can't listen to it at work but there's an interview / podcast with Ignacio Portes here:

http://www.r1.co.nz/podcasts/Olivier%20-%20Ignacio%20Portes.mp3

Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Friday, 28 February 2014 12:00 (seven years ago) link

I'm not sure Chavez or Maduro were ever saviors

Bryan Fairy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 28 February 2014 12:07 (seven years ago) link

three months pass...

I don't know much about this, but after catching a couple of news reports full of rich kids with nice clothes, fancy tents, and smart phones trying their best to look put-upon and oppressed, the protests looked awfully stage directed to me, and the hijacking of the vocabulary of revolution was pretty infuriating. Kind of hard to muster sympathy for the "poor little rich boy"

Dan I., Friday, 27 June 2014 17:02 (seven years ago) link

and yeah, the whole scene screamed "CIA"

Dan I., Friday, 27 June 2014 17:03 (seven years ago) link

one year passes...

Probably deserves a new thread, but Venezuela is looking really bad right now.

Looting On the Rise As Venezuela Runs Out of Food, Electricity

On Wednesday, the Venezuelan Chamber of Food (Cavidea) said in a statement that most companies only have 15 days worth of stocked food.

According to the union, the production of food will continue to dwindle because raw materials as well as local and foreign inputs are depleted.

In the statement, Cavidea reported that they are 300 days overdue on payments to suppliers and it’s been 200 days since the national government last authorized the purchase of dollars under the foreign currency control system.

Abandon hype all ye who enter here (Sanpaku), Sunday, 1 May 2016 23:13 (five years ago) link

Not headline worthy yet, I guess:

Hungry Venezuelans Hunt Dogs, Cats, Pigeons as Food Runs Out

The population’s desperation has begun to show, with looting and robberies for food increasing all the time. This Sunday, May 1, six Venezuelan military officials were arrested for stealing goats to ease their hunger, as there was no food at the Fort Manaure military base. The week before, various regions of the country saw widespread looting of shopping malls, pharmacies, supermarkets and food trucks, all while people chanted “we are hungry.”

Abandon hype all ye who enter here (Sanpaku), Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:22 (five years ago) link

In addition to dogs and cats, people are also killing pigeons to stave off hunger (El Nacional)

nakhchivan, Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:39 (five years ago) link

they should probably the kill the pigeons first and eat the cats and dogs afterwards if necessary

nakhchivan, Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:41 (five years ago) link

bread + circuses work but the bread part is non-negotiable

Mordy, Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:42 (five years ago) link

pigeons are better than bread

nakhchivan, Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:42 (five years ago) link

http://az723720.vo.msecnd.net/media/img27928.475x317.jpg

nakhchivan, Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:43 (five years ago) link

three weeks pass...

bread + circuses work but the bread part is non-negotiable

'We want food!', Venezuelans cry at protest near presidency

we're kinda studiously ignoring this bc politically inconvenient yes?

Mordy, Friday, 3 June 2016 05:00 (five years ago) link

I don't know, there hasn't been that much talk of the right-wing coup in Brazil either? I guess because it's really hard to pin on Hillary...

But, really, the left's love of Venezuela was always going to backfire. Oil cronyism is bad whether the leaders are right or left-wing.

Frederik B, Friday, 3 June 2016 10:08 (five years ago) link

when your economy is based on oil, it suffers when oil prices collapse.

socka flocka-jones (man alive), Friday, 3 June 2016 19:18 (five years ago) link

that def a big piece of it but the currency + price controls don't work so well either. the oil collapse sparked the crisis but the economic system exacerbated it.

Mordy, Friday, 3 June 2016 19:23 (five years ago) link

The Chavez years had an economic stability that hadn't been seen since the 70s iirc, largely by virtue of high oil prices. The social and development programmes he implemented came at a price that wasn't sustainable in a crash and, having come in on the back of twenty years of disaster, there wasn't much chance to build up reserves that would allow them to ride it out.

On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Friday, 3 June 2016 19:40 (five years ago) link

two weeks pass...

http://www.npr.org/2016/06/08/481225008/bust-times-in-oil-rich-venezuela-the-banks-dont-have-money-to-give-out

Terry Gross interviews NYT reporter Nicholas Casey about Venezuela

Mordy, Monday, 20 June 2016 02:12 (five years ago) link

CASEY: Well, yeah. A lot of people are looking at who or what is to blame. There's a lot of things going on right now. One of them is the legacy in the years and aftermath after Hugo Chavez. There was a huge amount of hope throughout the left in Latin America when Chavez came to power.

He was saying many things that no one else was saying and talking about inequality in terms that hadn't been heard in Latin America for years. Unfortunately, what followed was years of mismanagement on every level - a lot of corruption, misunderstandings of how the economy worked or how to fix it.

You know, I'll give you one example that you see a lot. It is causing a lot of the problems in Venezuela - is price controls. During those years, they brought the price of selling something lower than what it cost to make it. So if you wanted to get milk, it was at a very inexpensive price, which was great if you were poor.

The problem was if you were a farmer or, you know, owned an operation that was producing milk. And you couldn't produce it for the price that it was going to be sold for. So what happened next? Well, you just didn't produce it anymore.

So you started to see this huge collapse of production throughout the country. People stopped making beans. People stopped making rice. Venezuela went from being an exporter of meat to importing it. And one by one, all of these things stopped being made in the country.

Well, it wasn't the end of the world then, because there was so much money from the oil that you could just buy it. You could buy it for dollars. And the response was - well, we'll just import it. We can bring all these things in. It's a rich country. Well, this continued for years.

But the problem next came when the price of oil collapsed. And there wasn't any money to buy the imports. And there was no way to make them. So just what happened was - everything started to disappear. So that's part of the reason why Venezuela is where it is. That said, called the proximate cause - is years of mismanagement from these policies, dating back to Hugo Chavez.

Mordy, Monday, 20 June 2016 02:19 (five years ago) link

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/20/world/americas/venezuelans-ransack-stores-as-hunger-stalks-crumbling-nation.html

A staggering 87 percent of Venezuelans say they do not have money to buy enough food, the most recent assessment of living standards by Simón Bolívar University found.

About 72 percent of monthly wages are being spent just to buy food, according to the Center for Documentation and Social Analysis, a research group associated with the Venezuelan Teachers Federation.

In April, it found that a family would need the equivalent of 16 minimum-wage salaries to properly feed itself.

Ask people in this city when they last ate a meal, and many will respond that it was not today.

Mordy, Monday, 20 June 2016 03:11 (five years ago) link

fuk

socka flocka-jones (man alive), Monday, 20 June 2016 03:17 (five years ago) link

three months pass...

Not binding and is unlikely to derail the whole process but...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/02/colombia-referendum-rejects-peace-deal-with-farc

Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Monday, 3 October 2016 08:03 (four years ago) link

"No one is so foolish as to prefer war to peace". In your face, Herodotus! The modern era has sure proved that wrong.

two crickets sassing each other (dowd), Monday, 3 October 2016 11:35 (four years ago) link

Fundamentally you just don't get it. Doubts have been placed in the report to justify the coup, but then it's what has been done since then too, and the repression of indigenous peoples and their democratic rights. I mean they've installed a puppet in place, forming alliances with Bolsanaro, who did not run against Lula.

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2020/02/bolivias-coup-in-practice

xyzzzz__, Friday, 28 February 2020 12:37 (one year ago) link

Just read the report, mate

Frederik B, Friday, 28 February 2020 12:49 (one year ago) link

if you read the MIT report (linked in the WaPo article) it does actually mention that the OAS claimed to find a spike at 95% and that's what their statistical analysis attempts to address.

ufo, Friday, 28 February 2020 13:01 (one year ago) link

Fred - read less reports and get your head out of your arsehole, mate

xyzzzz__, Friday, 28 February 2020 13:09 (one year ago) link

Citation needed, ufo. I'm on my phone but the MIT report specifically says it analyzes based on the trendline of the first 84%

Frederik B, Friday, 28 February 2020 13:13 (one year ago) link

It's on page 1...

Frederik B, Friday, 28 February 2020 13:15 (one year ago) link

the OAS claims irregularities in the trend both from 84% with 95% onwards being particularly bad. the MIT report finds that the entirety of the final result is explainable by the trend before that.

anyway regardless of the substance of any irregularities, in the vote trend or otherwise, there's still absolutely no justification for the military coup that occurred which is the ultimate principle.

ufo, Friday, 28 February 2020 13:26 (one year ago) link

I agree on the second point. But the thread was bumped because of the MIT report, so that is of course what I'm writing about. And the first point is just wrong. The OAS report goes into detail on irregularities in specific districts happening right as the count hits 95%, this just simply can't be explained by voting trends happening elsewhere at earlier times. It's bad use of statistics.

Frederik B, Friday, 28 February 2020 13:59 (one year ago) link

The MAS is favored to win the new election, and the nightmare right-wing government will hopefully soon be over. A lot of things can be true at once, and believing that 1) perpetual reelection is bad and Morales should have never stood and 2) the OAS report is more credible than the MIT report, and the evidence of fraud is very convincing, does not mean I can't also believe that 3) right-wing coups are bad and 4) MAS is better than the opposition.

Frederik B, Friday, 28 February 2020 14:02 (one year ago) link

Yup, comfortably holding all thoughts from my big chair in Copenhagen.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 28 February 2020 14:17 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

Bumbling idiots: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/venezuela-us-transition-plan-maduro-guaido

Frederik B, Wednesday, 1 April 2020 10:43 (one year ago) link

It's an April's fool from the US

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 1 April 2020 11:01 (one year ago) link

The article is from yesterday

Frederik B, Wednesday, 1 April 2020 11:04 (one year ago) link

Lol I knew you were going to say that

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 1 April 2020 11:40 (one year ago) link

The Venezuelans don't trust the US? B-b-but, I heard you should always trust Elliot Abrams!

A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 1 April 2020 17:54 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

when you are so bad at everything you fail even at emulating failure

a “Star Wars summit of anti-Maduro goofballs"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/05/06/bay-pigs-style-fiasco-venezuela/

Yanni Xenakis (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 13:36 (one year ago) link

just reading about this. what a world

my brother sent me that story along with many Red Zone Cuba jokes

dip to dup (rob), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 16:46 (one year ago) link

a very reasonable doubt everyone had was "c'mon is the leader of the Venezuelan opposition really signing a Microsoft Word template contract for like $250 million with a crossfit merc group to do a revolution and topple a government"
well, apparently, yeah seems so

— Aric Toler (@AricToler) May 7, 2020

AHAHAHA HOLY SHIT, Those Silvercorps morons stole their terms and conditions from @masterclass

They even failed to do the find and replace correctly!!! https://t.co/du7WqcSWH4 pic.twitter.com/fCe5NLlav1

— zedster (@z3dster) May 5, 2020

Full(ish) contract here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/read-the-attachments-to-the-general-services-agreement-between-the-venezuelan-opposition-and-silvercorp/e67f401f-8730-4f66-af53-6a9549b88f94/

ShariVari, Thursday, 7 May 2020 17:47 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

One of the first articles this organisation uploaded on its website is by Claire Wordley, the very person who in the months in the run up to the coup in Bolivia was pushing the lie that Morales = Bolsonaro & that he was to blame for fires in the Amazon. https://t.co/GmlepVcuwQ

— Louis (@Louis_Allday) June 9, 2020

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 16:51 (one year ago) link

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/world/americas/bolivia-election-evo-morales.html

A close look at Bolivian election data suggests an initial analysis by the O.A.S. that raised questions of vote-rigging — and helped force out a president — was flawed.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Rik Waller-Bridge (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 17:08 (one year ago) link

someone i went to hs with shared a fundraiser for her troop-husband's friend who was apparently one of the ppl who attempted the coup in venezuela lolllllllllllllllll

methinks dababy doth bop shit too much (m bison), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 17:27 (one year ago) link

Lol.

I'm happy to admit I got it wrong in dismissing those calling this a 'coup' earlier.

This WAS a coup.

— Sunny Hundal (@sunny_hundal) June 17, 2020

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 17 June 2020 19:08 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

7/ Then, it got real embarrassing. In April 2019, we tried to organize a kind of coup, but it became a debacle. Everyone who told us they’d rally to Guaido got cold feet and the plan failed publicly and spectacularly, making America look foolish and weak.

— Chris Murphy (@ChrisMurphyCT) August 4, 2020

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 18:37 (one year ago) link

this coup's going in my cringe compilation

soref, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 18:51 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

On the Colombian protests and strikers:

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/police-colombia-acab/tnamp/?

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 1 October 2020 13:20 (eleven months ago) link

three months pass...

Oh nothing, just Juan Guaidó and friends attempting to appropriate $40bn of Venezuelan state money from foreign banks in return for kick-backs down the road. https://t.co/mfqUv4uGbx

— Elvis Buñuelo (@Mr_Considerate) January 3, 2021

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 3 January 2021 23:50 (eight months ago) link

one month passes...

Ecuador's govt are trying to ban leftist @ecuarauz from standing in the 2nd round, even though he WON the 1st round. In Bolivia too, the coup tried to ban the largest party from standing. Its a deseperate measure taken by US-backed tyrants who've lost the consent of the governed.

— Ollie Vargas (@OVargas52) February 13, 2021

xyzzzz__, Saturday, 13 February 2021 18:43 (seven months ago) link

three months pass...

The latest round of protests against Colombia's right-wing government have seen a brutal crackdown, leading to at least 43 deaths – but the mass movement for social change is only growing stronger. https://t.co/0IWKqGMpoo

— Tribune (@tribunemagazine) May 23, 2021

xyzzzz__, Monday, 24 May 2021 11:48 (three months ago) link

two weeks pass...

Colombia, Celag poll:

Presidential election

Petro (PH, left): 38%
Fajardo (CC, centre): 18%
J.M. Galán (PLC, centre-left): 9%
De la Calle (PLC, centre-left): 8%
...

Fieldwork: 13 May-8 June '21
Sample size: 1,945#Colombia pic.twitter.com/Vxl87gvz6W

— America Elects (@AmericaElige) June 11, 2021

xyzzzz__, Friday, 11 June 2021 14:49 (three months ago) link

two months pass...

Bolivia’s recent interim government led by Jeanine Áñez persecuted opponents with “systematic torture” and “summary executions” by security forces following ex Pres. Evo Morales’s resignation in 2019, according to a new report by OAS human rights experts. https://t.co/Gatf5cPbGO pic.twitter.com/kfsR6gA8ji

— Kenneth Roth (@KenRoth) August 20, 2021

papal hotwife (milo z), Saturday, 28 August 2021 01:31 (three weeks ago) link

quiet thread these days

Left, Saturday, 28 August 2021 10:18 (three weeks ago) link

it seems this Roth fellow called the fascist coup a “transitional moment” at the time, so much for watching human rights.

calzino, Saturday, 28 August 2021 10:35 (three weeks ago) link

I see the OAS is suddenly trustworthy.

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 28 August 2021 18:48 (three weeks ago) link

do you care about this

Left, Saturday, 28 August 2021 19:07 (three weeks ago) link

fucking lol

caddy lac brougham? (will), Saturday, 28 August 2021 19:10 (three weeks ago) link

By the way, I don’t see a problem with what happened in Bolivia

IIRC

papal hotwife (milo z), Saturday, 28 August 2021 19:13 (three weeks ago) link

“Compared to that other person on a messageboard whose views I disagree with, I am on the right side of history and he is not”

It is going to take a lot of imagination for an ideologue of Milo’s or Left’s kind to understand this but one can believe that Morales ‘president forever’ approach to politics is extremely bad all the while not supporting Añez human rights abuses at all. Or are we a little too attached to the schtick of making wild assumptions about someone we disagree with in order to show the world how virtuous we are? In any case I hope this sort of behavior is exclusive to the internet, because geez, must be tough to make friends irl with that sort of intransigeance.

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 28 August 2021 19:39 (three weeks ago) link

lol, you didn't "see a problem" with the fascist coup last month

papal hotwife (milo z), Saturday, 28 August 2021 19:41 (three weeks ago) link

I am not going to spend hours trying to explain the vast complexity of politics in a country of 12 millions citizens and how not everyone will subscribe to your us against them/black and white narratives. Mainly because I know your raison d’être is to chastise anyone contradicting or stepping out of your one viewpoint and to get as many ‘gotchas’ as you can to pat yourself on the back and ultimately it’s just very very sad to witness.

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 28 August 2021 20:05 (three weeks ago) link

I’ve never expressed support for any politician but I’m clearly a massive evo for life stan because I implied the coup is bad or something, wild assumptions indeed. to the charge of ideology check out this mirror

Left, Saturday, 28 August 2021 20:06 (three weeks ago) link

and to get as many ‘gotchas’ as you can to pat yourself on the back and ultimately it’s just very very sad to witness.

― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 28 August 2021 bookmarkflaglink

As if you don't do this.

xyzzzz__, Saturday, 28 August 2021 20:09 (three weeks ago) link

VHS, from what I could tell, your nuanced view of the situation was that it was all basically fine because it worked out in the end with a transfer of power to a legitimately elected leader who wasn't Morales. You treated the year of Anez's rule like a speed bump that was necessary because Morales had to step down, even if he won the election and the reports of fraud were false and dozens of protestors were killed by Anez's forces. Maybe this is the mature, realpolitik way of looking at things, but it's also completely devoid of any context of the history of leftist leaders in South America and the right-wing response to them.

JoeStork, Saturday, 28 August 2021 21:17 (three weeks ago) link

VHS do you work for Canada’s version of the Brookings Institute or what

Bach on harmonica! (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 28 August 2021 21:24 (three weeks ago) link

Ideally the Ecuadorians should be allowed to sort this out internally without interference, but reflexive US interventionism is so deeply entrenched in our foreign policy that such an ideal will not be achievable any time soon. We will always throw our weight behind some faction in every contest for power in Latin America and even our rare, well-intentioned efforts seldom produce happy results and they have already caused so much disruption of the internal politics in Ecuador and other Latin nations that merely ceasing to interfere is insufficient to remedy the problems caused by our past intervention.

I don't particularly care whether the observation above is 'mature' or a sound reflection of realpolitik, or wide open to criticism that I am not doing enough to assist the Ecuadorian people in their struggle, mainly because no position I have ever adopted toward Latin American foreign policy has ever made any substantive difference in that policy. All I know is that the Monroe Doctrine has wrought much more evil than good in the world.

it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Saturday, 28 August 2021 21:43 (three weeks ago) link

"merely ceasing to interfere is insufficient to remedy the problems caused by our past intervention."

Just don't interfere ffs.

xyzzzz__, Saturday, 28 August 2021 22:39 (three weeks ago) link

I promise not to.

it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Saturday, 28 August 2021 22:43 (three weeks ago) link

As a 'mature' citizen that's what you should do.

xyzzzz__, Saturday, 28 August 2021 22:49 (three weeks ago) link

Maybe this is the mature, realpolitik way of looking at things, but it's also completely devoid of any context of the history of leftist leaders in South America and the right-wing response to them.

As of yet, Luis Arce has had very little resistance from US foreign policy, the imprisonement of Añez being really the only voiced criticism so far, same for Diego Castillo who is part of a self described Marxist party, same for Fernández in Argentina, and seemingly (I might be wrong there!) same for AMLO. I’m not denying that there has been resistance to left wing politics by American’s FP in Latin American history, I just don’t think it’s the case for the Morales situation. I would rather see what happened and see if it fits the narrative than start from the narrative and make assumptions.

And one the biggest assumption is that the OAS report was an element of American interventionism to displace Morales. I don’t see it that way. Morales asked for that audit because he trusted the organisation, Diego Castillo trusted the OAS enough to audit the Peruvian elections too and it certified his victory, all the while knowing of what happened in Bolivia in 2019. Cuba is a full contributing member of the organisation, and the OAS also just released a full report on Añez human right crimes, this is not exactly the behavior of an organisation hell bent on the destruction of left wing politics and the promotion of right wing autocrats. Really, no one has full proof that there was ill intent, mistakes can happen, we see them all the time, the political situation was jumpy to begin with, a lot of people were done with Morales before the elections. Anti-Morales protests can happen without foreign intervention, Añez can be an interim despot without the help of Americans, you see similar situations all the time outside of the Western Hemisphere, but when it happens in Latin American it is obviously an extension of the Monroe doctrine? Bolivians have enough agency that it would more precise to see their actions first rather than just assume ‘it’s all America’.

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 28 August 2021 22:51 (three weeks ago) link

two weeks pass...

Good piece.

https://www.apollo-magazine.com/colombia-statues-conquistadores-toppling/

xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 September 2021 18:39 (five days ago) link


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