Rolling US Economy Into The Shitbin Thread

And if the Dems wanna truly help the UAW, they can troll around billions of dollars in aid to people who lose their jobs. The UAW is going to fail with the American auto industry, and it's time for progressives to actually think progressively on the end game here.

let american entrepreneurship take its fucking course.

as if "american entrepreneurship" exists in some separate realm from "government influence." corporations are chartered by the government, and major industries -- especially the auto industry -- operate within the context of american industrial policy. when auto companies were successful, it was always with government assistance of one kind or another. (killing mass transportation, subsidizing an auto-dependent lifestyle, ensuring abundant supplies of cheap fuel, etc.) after wwii, the government essentially subcontracted chunks of the social contract to the private sector. it was always a dubious bargain, but now it's pretty much nonfunctional. (that's what we're at the "end game" of.) the right-wing position is pretty clear: like dandy don says, what fucking social contract? nobody on the left, or at least nobody in the political mainstream, is fantasizing about 'uaw contracts for all!' the question is how the terms are redefined, who gets to be at the table, and what drives the debate.

the bridge loans detroit wants are a short-term patch, no matter what they accomplish or don't. that's really all this skirmish is about, trying to set the table for the fights that are going to come over how to expand/broaden the safety net (for the glorious FUTURE, which is going to require safety nets you bet) and restructure the expectations of the employer-employee relationship, and employer-government relationship. republicans would prefer that debate to happen in the context of a bankrupt g.m. and eviscerated uaw. democrats (at least some of them) would prefer it not.

I would gladly fuck over millions of american workers if it meant that their children, your children, and my prospective offspring would grow up understanding the difference between operating a sustainable, well-run enterprise versus a huge batch of cloudy incompetence masquerading as industry.

sending these children into poverty doesn't seem like such a good idea to "make a point"

Oh no it totally is.

All must be reminded of the laws of the jungle.

Well, not all.

Just enough to know their place.

> profit sharing or stock grants to all employees

Holy shit, did Mitt Romney just endorse the proletariat owning the means of production?

In context, it looks like he may be endorsing it in exchange for more traditional benefits. (I'm thinking of my dad's company offering decent pension plans to employees when he was hired 20 years ago, and giving stock options to its new employees instead.)

Fuck this guy:

http://clusterstock.alleyinsider.com/2008/11/michigan-congressman-taxpayer-money-isn-t-really-their-money-video-

Here's an idea, lend me the $25bn, let me by the volt from chevvy, the Aptera from Google.org and I'll build an american car company that is actually worth something.

Seriously though. Rather than propping up these ageing Behemoths put $25bn into providing cheap capital for people trying to set up engineering businesses to make use of the vast banks of skills in Ohio and Michigan and all the other affected states. Let's have these skilled people build the renewable power infrastructure and sustainable transport infrastructure that the World needs rather than SUVs that no one wants.

Dude didn't you hear Bush's 2001 State of the Union, it's hydrogen cars for everyone

Ed, good luck with that. See: Tesla Motors. Their best shot is to license their technology to a major player. Without massive economies of scale, purchasing leverage, and platform sharing, your company that's actually worth something couldn't bring a Honda Civic to market for under $50K sticker. At which price the American consumer would promptly throw up all over it even if you could steal 40 years of brand equity and call it a Honda Civic. Sorry.

Tracer, I hope to god Bush is right. Especially in growing auto markets where the petroleum infrastructure isn't already massively built out (India, China) it could really be a godsend.

The infrastructure's the biggest challenge at this point. I assume you know that hydrogen cars are already on the road in SoCal: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

Tracer, I hope to god Bush is right.

uh-oh!

blind squirrels and nuts and all that

I don't really have anything to add here other than the sinking suspicion that our country's collapse is inevitable and we should be planning on how we are going to bounce out of the wreckage rather than hopelessly trying to stop it. Fucked if I know how to make that bounce, though.

Start by rolling back interest rates, which will inflate prices in the housing sector. Americans will be able to borrow against their rising home equity at advantageous rates, and the perception of growing wealth will encourage them to spend, spend, spend. That should give the ol' economy a nice kick in the pants!

http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=522edbf93c4b8c93_landing

Start by rolling back interest rates, which will inflate prices in the housing sector. Americans will be able to borrow against their rising home equity at advantageous rates, and the perception of growing wealth will encourage them to spend, spend, spend. That should give the ol' economy a nice kick in the pants!

I really hope you're joking

you could start by not raping this generation of american workers, who are already under record amounts of individual debt, for the sake of their parents' retirement.

Fuck a poorly run company, fuck a union that works pretty much exclusively for a poorly run company, and fuck states that thrive off poorly run companies.

http://www.hbo.com/thewire/img/episodeguide/season01/ep05_omar_walk_street.jpg

xpost to dan re "how to make bouncie?"

One nation
Under God
Indivisible
With liberty and justice for all

> Start by rolling back interest rates, which will inflate prices in the housing sector. Americans will be able to borrow against their rising home equity at advantageous rates, and the perception of growing wealth will encourage them to spend, spend, spend. That should give the ol' economy a nice kick in the pants!

I really hope you're joking

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, November 19, 2008 12:32 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I lolled.

you know what is amazing? the new york subway system is FUCKED. they may close the W line. they're going to halve the G line. they're going to reduce the number of trains between 2am and 5am. they're closing hundreds of booths and laying off hundreds of attendants. this is after more than a decade of unprecedented growth in the financial capital of the world. and THE STATIONS STILL LOOK AND SMELL LIKE SEWERS.

oh no we'll definitely send millions of our boys to get murdered to keep that indivisible bit, even if the chunk that's trying to leave is the poorly-run-enterprise chunk

it just seems like the old "fix the roof when the sun is shining" thing never really caught on in the old usa

I'm sympathetic to the idea Tombot expresses - though I'd put it more in terms of not screwing future generations of taxpayers who are going to have to pay off the deficits that we are running up today. I think the idea that you don't worry about deficits when you're in a recession is nice and all, but I think we've used up our credibility in that area by continuing to run up deficits in good times and bad over the past 8 years. I wish I could be more confident that we'll get serious about the deficit (including the looming entitlement deficit) once the economy turns around.

tracer come on man sewers don't have little laser-printed signs taped up everywhere telling you that THIS LETTER OF THE ALPHABET WILL ACT LIKE THIS OTHER LETTER OF THE ALPHABET FOR THE NEXT THREE DAYS EXCEPT AT NIGHT

that is a good point.

THX 4 YR CONCERN LONDON AND DC DUDES

btw tombot u know why the trains are always getting rerouted - it is because they run 24/7 and need to be worked on some time - also you dont have to swipe on the way out

I really hope you're joking

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/If_you_don

you guys, they spend lots of money getting that just-pissed-on look and feel down pat, show some appreciation

u are allowed to at while u ride and none of them are the green line

i've seen moss in the nyc subway. MOSS.

eat while u ride

oh no we'll definitely send millions of our boys to get murdered to keep that indivisible bit, even if the chunk that's trying to leave is the poorly-run-enterprise chunk

now wait a minute, what?

all this shit could have been avoided with a congestion charge.

there are some billboards promoting the c-charge still up in east new york, it's pretty sad

Of course it's not enough money non-shockah
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/bailout-funds-for-gm-may-fall-short-analyst-says/

Haha I am not making any type of argument for the supremacy of Boston public transit! I would gladly trade up to "just-pissed-on" from "just-pissed-puked-shat-and-menstruated-on".

yo joe you can't DRINK on the subway, though - a disgraceful situation

wait now I don't know if I'm describing Boston or Philly

agreed drinking should be allowed everywhere

I don't hear the beverage industry crying to warshington for handouts!

youre sort of allowed to drink on the subway

jsut like youre sort of allowed to smell like shit and have no pants on and sleep at 2 in the afternoon sprawled out on four cars headed out to far rockaway

uh four seats

lol reed richards is a homeless person

Surely he could construct a home out of his own body?

are you hungover Tombot?