He did it first!

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I'm interested in the relationship of time to morality. Kids have a strong sense of what's fair and what's unfair. One of the things you hear them say most is 'He did it first!' But is this a valid exonerating argument?

Bin Laden justifies the destruction of the WTC with various slights suffered by Muslims. The US justifies civilian deaths in Afghanistan with civilian deaths at the WTC. The Jews and the Arabs in Israel justify each new death by calling it a reprisal for their own last loss. But if we remove the time element, it's all just killing and hate.

Christ and Gandhi advocated 'turning the other cheek', breaking the vicious circle of reprisal. But if we remove the time element, we also remove context, and that is clearly not just. In fact, it may not be possible. Non-violence is also in a context; the context of the religious philosophy of Christ and Buddha, the political philosophy of Gandhi. Non-violence is also, in a sense, a 'reprisal'. It is subject to time too.

On the apology thread, Maria said she hated qualified apologies. 'I'm sorry, but....' This is built into language. We cannot explain a complicated emotion all at once. If we're being honest, we're probably ambivalent. But because language unfolds in time, we have to express this dialectically: on the one hand I feel sorry, on the other I don't.... What if we reverse the order: On the one hand I don't feel sorry, on the other I do... Is that better? Is it the same statement or a different statement (ending upbeat, conciliatory?) Doesn't the dependence of language on time make language distort our simultaneously ambiguous feelings, forcing us to 'conclude' something when in fact we just want to spell out a co-existing contradiction without resolving it?

So we try some new formula like 'I do-don't feel sorry' or 'I love-hate you'. But it just sounds surreal.

If we decide to liberate ourselves from time by making language non-sequential, does that mean we live in a random access world where nothing is sequential, where middle aged people can be young and you can choose randomly where in the world to live? Does that mean you can watch the end of a film before the beginning and still 'get it'? Does texture replace narrative? Can I decide to read page 69 only of every book and give that a fancy name like 'intertextuality'? Can there be a worldwide network of linked pages that never add up to any definitive meaning, but just link to each other endlessly?

Actually that sounds like the world I seem to be heading for, personally. It's far from the world of Bush and Arafat and Bin Laden, though. And far from the world of Hollywood.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

You can play around with this a bit in art, but ultimately I think it's largely beyond human psychological capabilities to totally abandon the linear restrictions that time places on on moral (and artistic) cognition. And it doesn't really bother me - I like working with restrictions. I've always thought the only way out of this is Buddhism, but I'm not really sure about that.

I don't really understand your third paragraph (about non-violence also being a reprisal).

N., Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I don't really understand your third paragraph (about non-violence also being a reprisal).

I really just meant that non-violence only seems to break the cycle of reprisal. In fact it is a response that's just as time- and sequence-locked as the violent acts. The only difference is that it has chosen a different weapon, the refusal to respond in kind. This may seem like a refusal of conflict, but in the symbolic realm it is a very powerful weapon, giving the user a clear moral advantage. It is the continuation of the struggle by other means.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

OK - I just have problems with people seeing that kind of argument to justify violence (ie. on the grounds that non-violent methods have a sneaky moral equivalance so let's just be open about it and SEE WHO'S GOT THE BIGGER BOMBS). Is that anti-Nietzschean? I dunno - I'm rather ignorant about these things.

Don't mean to get the thread bogged down in this bit, sorry.

N., Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I don't see the distinction time-cyclewise between non-violence and the "qualified apology"; they're both responses hence both "reprisals", aren't they? So's walking away altogether and reading p69 at random of an unrelated book: yr "higher moral ground" there is that *you* reject the tyranny of sequence, while your *opponent* remains a slave to it and thus loses.

mark s, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I agree, Mark, although I think the moral victory of rejecting sequence is still a pretty eccentric and underused one which most people would fail to give you much credit for.

I remember George Melly telling the story of how he repulsed a couple of attackers in a London alley with surrealist chants. If he'd shouted some traditional challenge like 'Have at ye lads!' or some victimlike cry of 'Help, police!' the assailants would have known where they stood, and slashed him. As it was, he quoted some Kurt Schwitters in a high, spooky voice and the boys bolted. There's a lot to be said for this. (George Melly, the Mike Hanley of his day!)

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I have a vision of a better world, the world of Surrealist personal relationships. Romanticism took 200 years to become the love discourse we use today. Surrealism will therefore become the template for love talk by the year 2150.

He: I do-don't feel sorry.
She: I love-hate you. Fuck you-fuck me.

Background music: Serge Gainsbourg singing 'I love you (me neither)'.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I remember George Melly telling the story of how he repulsed a couple of attackers in a London alley with surrealist chants.

God, that's always been one of my ambitions / intended experiments! Often I see a gang of nomarks hanging around in my darkened path and wonder whether it would be possible to confuse them into leaving me alone. They seem to pick up on the vibe and never bother me anyway though.

N., Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Okay, Nick, there are some Schwitters mp3s here. Memorise them well, you won't want to slip up at the 'recital'.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The Schwitters chants might also be helpful in heated rows with your lover. Then again, they might not.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Thanks, but I was intending to make up my own baffling repartee.

N., Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Personally, I always use Presto - Denoument - Cadenza - Finale when an angry girlfriend is demanding an apology.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

nick,

this isn't 100% related to your concept of "he did it first" "no you" etc etc but there is a fairly recent and decent book by Joseph Nye entitled The Paradox of American Power: Why the World's Only Superpower Can't Go It Alone in which Nye proclaims that in order for the US to retain it's stature as the most powerful nation in the world, it must become more "sensitive," less arrogant and unilateral, and must begion to adapt itself to the information age... Bush wants to spent billions of dollars on weapons technology to fight terrorists who slipped through the cracks with nothing but box cutters...

i'm not a very political person, and i don't read much in the way of political literature, but i actually enjoyed this book...

just thought i'd make a recommendation.

living in a cubist, nonsensical, oxymoronic society would be appealing for about a day at most. nonsense and decontextualizeation can be glorious things but living in a society in which they are the foundations would simply get annoying. the nation as a whole would be reduced to the level of kindergarteners simply because communication would deteriorate. as much as i love the abstract, i need concrete thought and comprehension as a balance or else i'd simply go insane out of inability to communicate. i have enough trouble when i say sincere things which people take as sarcasm or disbelief, and trying to assure such people that i am indeed being sincere is annoying enough. to have to constantly deal with "i know you are but what am i"s would just get irritating. perhaps you want the world to be reduced to the level of kindergarteners. do remember thoguh, nick, that for every fair, honest child there are a dozen spoiled brats who always get what they want no matter what.

we all know that the current political situation is being controlled by overgrown spoiled brats who learned NOTHING in kindergarten.

while your concept is somewhat appealing, nick, it definately would not make for a creative utopia. it would make the world a classroom of toddlers arguing over who's going to clean up the paste and construction paper.

mike j, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Seriously, though, take Schwitters, a Dadaist desperately trying to escape war and Nazis. Can't we see his nonsense syllables as a sort of refusal of the 'chivalric', sequential langauge of war? Dada emerged in 1916, right in the middle of World War 1. Schwitters spent much of the end of his life on ice breakers fleeing to Norway and in internment camps, escaping not just the Nazis but the kind of simple cause and effect logic their language carried to extremes ('Germany was humiliated, now we must prove ourselves. The Jews are in league with international finance against us. Modern art is decadent' etc etc).

It may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater to reject logic and sequence per se, saying they lead inevitably to Nazism, and it may be possible to imagine dictators even more terrible than Hitler using meaningless phonemes, uninterested in giving their brutal actions even the gloss of rationality. But I think we can see where, in the dialectic of the 20th century, Dada and Surrealism were coming from -- they were a rejection of the corruptible, exploitable, sequential logic of language, particularly language used as an instrument of persuasion and coercion.

Schwitters was also interested in our underused senses: he claimed to have 27.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Mike, our posts crossed. The book you describe sounds like it makes some of the same points as Benjamin Barber's new one, which talks about replacing the Declaration of Independence with a Declaration of Interdependence.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

paradoxical that to expound dada we constantly return to the historically institutionalised founders of dada, instead of just firing off into our own gibberish: quoting schwitters to confound is kind of missing schwitters' *actual* point, no?

mark s, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

also v.tempting to say, if nazis = apogee of logic (which incidentally is a mentalist proposition, as momus well knows) then no wonder all momus's arguments are so full of holes and easily taken to pieces ha!

mark s, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Just as non-violence is actually violence taken to a different level, so the language of texture is still language. Neither transcends its context, it just sets more ambitious, more ambiguous goals for already-existing forms (how can fighting be simultaneously not-fighting? How can language mean something and not-mean something at the same time?)

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I think this is precisely what many find most chilling about the Nazis: they were, in one reading, the culmination of the Enlightenment (with its double whammy of rationalism and colonialism). They were people who listened to Wagner and Beethoven in the morning then gassed their opponents at noon, with horrible efficiency.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Actually, Mark, there is something in what you say about my arguments being full of holes. I prefer to think of them as the holes in the cardboard tubes Shigeru Ban uses to construct his low-cost, low-weight, lifesaving houses. I have developed a style of argument which darts around playfully rather than pursuing some Panzer-line of resolute thought, flying a flag which says Dass muss zein! I try to assemble and disassemble lightweight logical structures more like Japanese screens or temporary exhibitions than the domes of Albert Speer.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

There's another thing that we could look at free of the 'He did it first!' mentality, another thing that we should try freeing from time. Copyright. It's self-evident to many creative people that scientific inventions and artistic ideas are often 'in the air'. They belong to no-one, and it's pretty accidental who gets there first. Calling them your property holds up human development.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I quote from the AP wires:

Bush Warns N. Korea Against Any Moves
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Bush, embarking on a trip to Asia, said today that the dividing zone between North and South Korea is ``one of the most dangerous places on earth.''

This, added to his recent comments about an 'axis of evil', makes Bush's main concern clear: to paint lines at various places around the world, designating people that side evil and this side good. Clearly this 'linesman strategy' is good for arms sales. It is bad for ambiguity, though. It demonstrates all that is worst about human thinking and human language: the arbitrary assignment of simple qualities to a complex world, the implied imperative to choose sides and prepare for a fight. It gives a new meaning to the Bush buzz phrase 'Let's roll!' No longer is 'Let's roll!' what the plucky (gay) passengers said when they went to storm the cabin of the fourth plane on 9/11. Now it means getting down on your knees and rolling the little wheeled paint pot they use on tennis courts, painting stupid white lines at various places in the world.

Let's roll out a few more simplistic binary oppositions. Never have we needed Dada more.

Momus, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

HOPEFULLY BUSH'S ENRON CONNECTION WILL GET HIM IMPEACHED. UNTIL THEN HE WILL MAKE MANY MORE IDIOTIC AND MONEY -ORIENTED MISTAKES. HE WILL PROBABLY NEXT ACCUSE RUSSIA OF BEING EVIL BECAUSE OF THEIR SKATING JUDGES.

Mike Hanle y, Saturday, 16 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

That's frustratingly sensical (and cyclical), Mike. Try again.

Mitch Lastnamewithheld, Sunday, 17 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

No, wait, I think I missed the point. Surely Mik e communicating in fully realized and seemily logical sentences is just as much an assault to our sense-bound universe as would be Nitsuh (fr'instance) shouting garbled Dada-isms?

Mitch Lastnamewithheld, Sunday, 17 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Wouldn't a rejection of the 'vicious cycle of reprisal' firstly entail a rejection of the notion of this thing 'hate', or of hate as the opposite of love? I feel I know what love is, but whatever I've felt can never live up to 'hate'. I don't know what hate is. Some say that the opposite of love is indifference, but I think indifference is orthogonal to love. This thing 'hate' just seems to be dustbin into which we chuck all sorts of feelings we don't want to confront - fear, discomfort, irritation, hormone fluctuations. Does hate really exist? Does love have an opposite? Can it be negated, is it subject to arithmetic, or is it something that is present to the extent that you're aware of it?

Kerry, Sunday, 17 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I don't get how "love-hate" or "do-don't" are supposed to be ways around the sequential nature of language. Aren't they just very short sequences? Surely you'd need to invent a new word which simultaneously means love/have or do/don't (nb this is not v.relevant to rest of discussion)

jamesmichaelward, Sunday, 17 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link


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