A question about climate change/global warming.

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What do you think the reasons are that many people are not willing to consider the possibilities for the human causes for climate change/global warming, despite massive scientific evidence? I'm talking just normal citizens who do not work for the Hoover Institute, Exxon, etc.

I work with several people who refuse to read any articles about it, or even consider ANY information about it, unless its critical of the whole notion. My wife says that most people that she works with are the same (she works in the States...I'm in Canada).
Are they just too lazy? Are they suspicious of any kind of intellectualism? Are they just prone to believe in conspiracy theories?

And I'm not talking here about being being a healthy skeptic. They do not consider ANY of the information.

peepee, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 17:32 (thirteen years ago) link

avoidance of guilt.

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 17:33 (thirteen years ago) link

They don't want to have to change what they are doing, or even consider it. It's the "American way" to do whatever the hell you want and damn the consequences. Apparently.

Sara R-C, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 17:34 (thirteen years ago) link

"they can't tell me what to do!"

*shake fist at cabal of liberal scientists*


Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 17:36 (thirteen years ago) link

Also, I think there is a suspicion of scientists having some kind of left wing agenda. (And a scary number of people in the US don't understand even the basics of how science works, which doesn't help either.)

Sara R-C, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 17:36 (thirteen years ago) link

I think there's a lot of the "well, even if I make changes, no one else is going to" attitude. It's easier to not do anything :(

Incrementalism is never gonna be sexy.

Maybe if the church got involved there'd be more progress. Going green for Jesus, or something. I think there was a documentary about this on the other day. Though, greeny issues are a bit pagan.

There were some good articles about green issues in the last issue of the Idler, "How to Save the World without really trying". Basically, not treating the world as just a resource.

jel --, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 17:51 (thirteen years ago) link

Doing less is the most noble thing you can do.

jel --, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 17:53 (thirteen years ago) link

I've heard of more evangelical christian churches refocusing on the "stewards of the earth" idea, in Seattle at least.

There's not a lot of direct positive feedback for the actions and efforts of an individual, which makes it hard if not impossible to motivate people to take action. As to not even wanting to know or acknowledge that their choices (added with the choices of others like them) have a global impact, well there's a lot of head-in-the-sand w/r/t science, environment, consumerism, politics - a major part of human nature, we'd just rather not think about it thanks anyway.

Jaq, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:11 (thirteen years ago) link

I think it's absorbing right-wing propaganda, which is of course designed to be the easiest to absorb without even thinking about it. Even the word "environment" begins to take on negative connotations in this light, which is weird, but there you are. "Environment" leads to "protecting" leads to "anti-business" leads to "THEY TOOK AWR JARBS!"

Also, from a purely capitalist, profit-motivated perspective, it really *doesn't* make good sense to take steps to change.

kenan, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:19 (thirteen years ago) link

In the short term, of course.

kenan, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link

Though, I heard those pesky capitalists are planting crops for biofuel which means less hops for beer = increased prices.

jel --, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:23 (thirteen years ago) link

oh great, more corn.

kenan, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:24 (thirteen years ago) link

It never rains but it pours = more evidence of global warming.

jel --, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:24 (thirteen years ago) link

not just avoidance of guilt but also denial re a sense of lifestyle inadequacy. people hate being shown that what they've been doing for so long is wrong (generalisation) as it makes them look foolish/ignorant.

blueski, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:27 (thirteen years ago) link

"Also, from a purely capitalist, profit-motivated perspective, it really *doesn't* make good sense to take steps to change."

I don't think this is entirely true - the profit motive to "go green" has grown incredibly strong over the last few years (similar to agribusinesses' desire to "break into" the hugely profitable organic market). Where there's services/products to be developed and delivered and a simultaneous public clamor for those services/products, there is money to be made.

Speaking from my own personal position in the energy field, I would tell any kid coming up who wants to make a shitload of money to get an energy engineering degree.

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:27 (thirteen years ago) link

people hate being shown that what they've been doing for so long is wrong (generalisation) as it makes them look foolish/ignorant.

see also 'Creationists' and what have you

blueski, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Speaking from my own personal position in the energy field, I would tell any kid coming up who wants to make a shitload of money to get an energy engineering degree.

As someone with a family member who is CLEANING UP on methane digesters, I concur.

Laurel, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Coco from Man or Astro-man? went into biodiesel.:


jel --, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:39 (thirteen years ago) link

He makes fuel outta grease from restaurants.

jel --, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:40 (thirteen years ago) link

there's a documentary about some all-girl punk band touring the country doing that

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:43 (thirteen years ago) link

Absolutely Shakey (and Laurel). There's enough momentum behind "green" "renewable" energy right now for people to make serious $$$ for the next decade, minimum. Chemical engineers who focus on organic (hydrocarbons), physicists, even the traditional electrical and mechanical engineering disciplines - all will be in demand, especially with minors in environmental sciences or policies.

Jaq, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 18:43 (thirteen years ago) link

ahh, see, my dad has worked for years for a company in south Texas that helps refineries fix leaks and comply with EPA regulations. The oil dudes think of my dad as a necessary evil. He is not loved by his clients. My dad, by way of commiseration, perhaps, believes that the EPA is stupid and corrupt and that there is nothing wrong with the environment whatsoever.

kenan, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 19:00 (thirteen years ago) link

the guilt-avoidance and admitting-wrong things are pretty otm, at a deeper level than the r-w talking points thing (which flows out of the first two), but there's at least two other factors i can think of. one is related to the lifestyle thing, but goes a bit deeper - a major change in the social fabric in response to this would deny some people a sense of meaning/purpose in life - it would eliminate not just the existence but the social utility/status of their jobs/defining leisure activities (compare the sagebrush complaints about the spotted owl and horny lizard or whatever it was). the other is that it requires people to think on a macro level, about the world as a system, etc., which many people are unwilling to do/uncomfortable doing probably for a variety of reasons but one big one might be that it makes them feel very small and without much agency in things.

gabbneb, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 19:09 (thirteen years ago) link

the EPA is stupid and corrupt

As with any govt agency, I don't doubt there's truth in this.

Jaq, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 19:12 (thirteen years ago) link

Also, the simple things each of us can do seem so inconsequential, the bigger things (like putting up a solar panel or windmill) are costly. It all seems so hopeless. Those on the right have a kneejerk reaction to doom-and-gloom. Those who accept the problem tend to bicker about what's worse and better (paper vs. plastic, dishwashers vs. hand-washing dishes). There was a story in our local paper about houses here installing copper tubing in the ground to harness geothermal energy. I sent the article to a family friend who is making building plans - his response was that the enviromental footprint of the copper tubing and excavators and digging outweighed the use of conventional energy systems. It all just gets so confusing that it's easy to throw one's hands up in the air and go for a nice aimless drive while it's still possible.

Maria :D, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 19:19 (thirteen years ago) link

This is all reminding me of when I was in college - my Dad (sort of a country club Republican sort) was pretty annoyed with my going to marches and similar activities. "You young kids think that you can change things..." was I think what he said.

I think it is really bizarre to see people - like him - in their early 60s now - who lived through huge social changes (like, say, the Civil Rights movement) who still don't think that things can be changed. (Of course there is also the fact that a lot of them didn't feel comfortable with those changes and definitely don't want any more change.)

Sara R-C, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 19:23 (thirteen years ago) link

There are a lot of younger people who now have this very romantic notion about the old days, before styrofoam and disposable everything. I think that's partly why baking and knitting have become so hip - the return to traditional crafts and a simpler day. Too bad there's not really any going back. I'd like to see a return to sustainable ways, but without the sexism and repression of the olde days. Is it hip yet for boys to darn socks?

Maria :D, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 19:29 (thirteen years ago) link

Boys are genetically predispositioned not to darn.

kenan, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 19:34 (thirteen years ago) link

I forgot they found a chromosomally linked gene for aversion to needlework. Silly me.

Laurel, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 19:39 (thirteen years ago) link

My two bits on this:

1. conservative types tend to not believe in systemic/complex causation rather than direct causation. (i.e. you're poor cuz you're lazy and it's your own fault and responsibility, not b/c you're in a system that's fucked)

2. american politics are extremely tribal right now, and agreeing with anything of this stuff is akin to casting your lot in with the dirty hippies. Plus, empiric & objective science has been attacked enough lately so that you can project your political thinking onto scientists, since scientists are all biased and only want a certain political output, and want to silence all dissenting opinions.

It's kinda fun how it's a big shitpile of these folks suddenly seeing the validity of debate, an inability or deliberate decision not to understand how science actually works, and disingeniousness in wanting to put forth a "serious alternative answer," as opposed to trying to scramble around for anything to cudgel the other side.

It's a lot like the intelligent design folks who want their shit taught alongside evolutionary biology as equally valid, yet spend all their money on shit-stirring p.r. instead of actually producing any research(check the budget of Seattle's Discovery Institute), and indeed openly attack those(sincerely interested or not) who want them to publish their research so it can be checked out. The authoritarian folks are now battling the authoritative folks(the ones who actually know their shit and can call others on it).

kingfish, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 20:13 (thirteen years ago) link

In other words, that traitorous hypocrite Gore and those dirty america-hating hippies are fer it, the Leaders I trust aren't and tell me I shouldn't be either, so i'm agin' it.

That kinda thing.

kingfish, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 20:15 (thirteen years ago) link

This is becoming less and less of a left vs right wing phenonmenon, as shown by the number of posts on The Corner (like those by Jonah Goldberg) acknowledging that global warming is real. The ones who believe simply distrust Gore-ist alarmism (OMIGOD MILWAUKEE WILL BE UNDERWATER IN 20 YRS).

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 20:25 (thirteen years ago) link

But there's still plenty of folks who attack Gore just for being Gore, which is a political thing, not with the science of it; see all the increased attacks & talking points in the last two days.

hell, there's some douche on Ed Schultz's show right now going off on him.

kingfish, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 21:12 (thirteen years ago) link


g®▲Ðұ, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 21:18 (thirteen years ago) link


g®▲Ðұ, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 22:19 (thirteen years ago) link

Things I've heard people say:

"Don't get me started on environmentalists! Soon denying global warming'll be like denying the holocaust. It'll be all "How dare you say it doesn't exist blah blah" (same bloke blamed "this PC world in which we live" for the rise in health and safety measures - my boss blamed lawyers. I think I agree with my boss)

"They ask me to switch off my TV instead of leaving it on standby, saying it saves energy, but have they considered that that so-called "wasted" energy is actually helping to heat my house?"

the next grozart, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 12:23 (thirteen years ago) link

These are also the kind of people who have an incredibly high suspicion of scientists, doctors and other professionals. "What's he talking about?! These people! He's not a proper scientist!" etc.

the next grozart, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 12:26 (thirteen years ago) link

"The cost of recycling is actually greater than the damage done"

the next grozart, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 12:27 (thirteen years ago) link

Recycling IS very expensive and energy-intensive, though

How about Ken Livingstone, eh??

Cleaning up the Big Smoke: Livingstone plans to cut carbon emissions by 60%

and presumably some of the experience gained with this long-term initiative can be imparted to Venezuela through Ken's expertise-in-exchange-for-cheap-oil-for-poor-Londoners deal he struck with Chavez:

Livingstone seals Venezuelan fuel deal

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 12:53 (thirteen years ago) link


blueski, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 13:08 (thirteen years ago) link

follow up information to all those attacks against Gore over the last two day, from the " Tennessee Center for Policy Research" to every rightwing radio show and blogger out there

kingfish, Thursday, 1 March 2007 00:21 (thirteen years ago) link

I suspect the biggest reason is that too many people have been preaching catastrophe from too many angles for too long. People are incurious about all sorts of subjects that could be deemed vital or essential. Picking "humans cause global warming" as a topic is really kind of pointless, unless you happen to be a big believer in it. If it's your dogma, then it suddenly it's unreasonable that others don't share your enthusiasm, wonder, or abject fear. Abortion, Iraq, Putin whoring himself around the Middle East, poverty, saving the whales...everyone's got a cause that someone else doesn't care about.

And really, you can't blame people for being at least a little bit jaded, non-plussed, or even cynical on this topic.

Dandy Don Weiner, Thursday, 1 March 2007 01:35 (thirteen years ago) link

Ah......sure I can.

peepee, Sunday, 4 March 2007 15:07 (thirteen years ago) link

......so we're only capable to worry about one cause?

peepee, Sunday, 4 March 2007 15:09 (thirteen years ago) link

we can have as many causes (and crisis) as we want. Some have many, some have few. People have jammed their heads in the sand for eons for a variety of issues.

Dandy Don Weiner, Sunday, 4 March 2007 15:35 (thirteen years ago) link

But then why choosing to jam their heads with such an energetic response against it?

peepee, Sunday, 4 March 2007 15:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Instead of consulting a message board of what amounts to like minded people on this subject, maybe it would be more productive to sit down with these people and ask them why it is they think the way they do. That way, you wouldn't have to speculate. Maybe it's your approach to the subject that makes them wave you off. Maybe they'd be willing to consider your perspective on different terms. Are you out to change their mind or simply expose them because you think they are idiots? How is it "energetic" to merely refuse to consider possibilities of humans causing global warming? Sounds pretty passive to me.

Dandy Don Weiner, Sunday, 4 March 2007 16:26 (thirteen years ago) link


I'm consulting a message board right now, because I'm at home, and the two people who live in this house have questions, and y'all MIGHT have some insight.

I do not argue with these people. I am calm and non-judgemental with them. I ask them questions. The thing that always gets me , though, is a lack of willingness to read something, or watch something, etc. I get along with these people. We talk in a friendly manner about all kinds of things everyday.

I have asked them why they're so bitterly opposed to the concept, and they usually have no answer except "It's a bunch of bull!", as if they'd rather not discuss it unless we're in agreement that it is a bunch of bull.

Dan, please don't project those nasty traits onto me.

(Am I comming across in a nasty way on this thread?)

peepee, Sunday, 4 March 2007 16:36 (thirteen years ago) link

It's ludicrous that extensive solar panelling hasn't been a mandated part of all new building construction in .au for the last 35 years*, but Katter is not equipped to advocate for it, from any of the following disqualifiers: 1) has no legislative weight to apply to any lever of power, 2) has no worldview coherent enough to enable him to make a public case for either his many good policies or his extensive RWNJ policies, separately or as a suite, 3) is as mad as at least three cut snakes.

don't care didn't ask still clappin (sic), Tuesday, 4 February 2020 12:00 (two months ago) link

* solar water heaters retrofitted to red tile roofs were a fairly uncommon sight in the suburbs when I was growing up - imagine the level of takeup if the government had bothered to set up grid connection and rebates back then.

(Labor PM Hawke argued for action on global warming from his second full term in 1987, and environment minister Richo proposed an emissions target in 1989 - N I N E T E E N E I G H T Y N I N E - but saw it torpedoed by treasurer Keating, who went on to roll Hawke for PM at Christmas '91 and completely trash any chance for local action or global cooperation.)

don't care didn't ask still clappin (sic), Tuesday, 4 February 2020 12:08 (two months ago) link

Take it to an Australian politics thread fellas

badg, Tuesday, 4 February 2020 22:24 (two months ago) link

we are all australian now

Homegrown Georgia speedster Ladd McConkey (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 4 February 2020 22:32 (two months ago) link

yesterday: Boris Johnson fires head of climate change conference, she reveals that he has told her he doesn't understand climate change

four years ago: Boris worries that the evidence of his senses proves climate change is happening, consults mentalist climate change denier Piers Corbyn for scientific reassurance

don't care didn't ask still clappin (sic), Tuesday, 4 February 2020 22:48 (two months ago) link

man it's a good thing that governmental policies have no effect on things like this!

Permafrost Is Thawing So Fast, It’s Gouging Holes in the Arctic

It’s perhaps the best known and more worrisome of climate feedback loops: As the planet warms, permafrost—landscapes of frozen soil and rock—begins to thaw. And when it does, microbes consume organic matter, releasing CO2 and methane into the atmosphere, leading to more warming, more thawing, and even more carbon emissions.

But here’s something you’ve probably never heard of, and it’s something not even the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has really considered: thermokarst. That’s the land that gets ravaged whenever permafrost thaws rapidly. As the ice that holds the soil together disappears, hillsides collapse and massive sinkholes open up. Climate scientists have been working gradual permafrost thaw into their models—changes that run centimeters deep over decades or centuries. But abrupt permafrost thaw happens on the scale of meters over months or years. That shocks the surrounding landscape into releasing potentially even more carbon than would have if it thawed at a more leisurely pace.

Today in the journal Nature Geoscience, researchers argue that without taking abrupt thaws into account, we’re underestimating the impact of permafrost thaw by 50 percent.

MOAR PETE (sic), Wednesday, 5 February 2020 09:08 (two months ago) link

I wonder if we’re at t he point that ‘nonparliamentary’ removal of climate denier politicians can be justified...

Bidh boladh a' mhairbh de 'n láimh fhalaimh (dowd), Wednesday, 5 February 2020 15:18 (two months ago) link

fairly uncommon sight


MOAR PETE (sic), Wednesday, 5 February 2020 20:23 (two months ago) link

Meanwhile the federal Minister for Emissions Reductions - last seen 12 days ago in this post, his criminal investigation there now referred to the feds by state police - has just issued an opportunity for business donors to pay to attend the cricket with himself on Saturday.

Here's how this went btw:

The Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction claimed in parliament that the Lord Mayor of Sydney was a climate hypocrite, brandishing documents showing the city council had spent “$1.7m on international travel and $14.2m on domestic travel” for councillors.

The actual figures were *shakes notes, adjusts pince-nez* $1,727.77 on international and $4,206.32 on domestic travel.

He claimed that as the PDF and Word versions of the actual publicly-available documents on the City Of Sydney's website had different line spacing, this meant it was possible that they'd changed the figures to frame him at some point. Maybe they forge all their own documents, all the time!

The minister had amusingly proven himself to be a liar and internet forger[/url a few months earlier, forgetting to swtich accounts when congratulating himself on his own facebook. He had been czar Minister for (Law Enforcement and) Cybersecurity until a few months before that.

The council referred the matter to the state police.

The state police declined to investigate the recent Minister for Law Enforcement, and referred the matter to the federal police.

The federal police have today [url=

AFP on dropping Angus Taylor investigation: “no evidence to indicate (he) was involved in falsifying information ... the low level of harm and the apology made by the Minister ... along with the significant level of resources required to investigate were also factored”. pic.twitter.com/d3Qv5jHbKf

— Alice Workman (@workmanalice) February 6, 2020

]gotten around to announcing that they will not investigate the former Minister for Law Enforcement, because in not investigating so far, they have uncovered no evidence that he personally did the forgery, therefore there is no evidence for them to investigate.

(They are not denying that a forgery was done in order to enter lies about state climate policy into federal Hansard, nor that it was done by the Minister's office. Just saying that they're not gonna ask anyone who done it.)

Accountability at the highest level for the Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction, while the country remains on fire and announcing new emissions-increasing policies. Fantastic. Great move. Well done Angus.

MOAR PETE (sic), Friday, 7 February 2020 02:02 (two months ago) link


― MOAR PETE (sic), Thursday, February 6, 2020 7:23 AM (yesterday)

(got an error message about tags but proofed and ctrl+f'd it, mb a glitch in the parser with that long Graun url? sorry folks)

MOAR PETE (sic), Friday, 7 February 2020 02:05 (two months ago) link

a former energy minister resigned from cabinet in order to support him (and completely coincidentally announced that he had previously not disclosed his membership of a football club to which he had awarded a $20 million loan). The SMH's head politics editor reckons the two of them will be forming a bloc within the Nats to ensure the Coalition rejects any efforts by the larger party to gradually adopt less damaging climate policies.

Took three days for this guy, Matt Canavan, to use the efficient hate-speech distribution network Facebook to argue that regulatory laws - which he also refers to as "green tape" - are a chokehold on enterprise.

His given example is that if protective laws had existed 300 years ago, white settlers would not have been able to murder native Aboriginal people in Australia to seize the coal-rich land, and could have been successful in murdering and/or deposing the King of Hawai'i.

Just a banner week for federal energy ministers. Fuck it, mask off, eh?

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Friday, 7 February 2020 08:14 (two months ago) link

For a moment earlier today it was the same temperature (65F) in Antartica* as in Honolulu.

*Warmest temperature ever recorded there.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Friday, 7 February 2020 18:05 (two months ago) link

Accountability at the highest level for the Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction

The Guardian is currently seeking a review of a Freedom of Information request that sought documents. Taylor’s office refused to release several documents, including one which was described as an email from “an external third party”. It was withheld on the grounds that it would adversely affect the business affairs of that person.

oh well, if it would 100% definitely affect the business affairs of a secret private entity, we DEFINITELY shouldn't investigate crimes or climate-related fraud by the Minister For Encouraging Global Warming To Continue Apace

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Friday, 7 February 2020 21:56 (two months ago) link

Rain in New South Wales in the last three days has helped to put out 30 separate fires that have been burning since 2019!

Is... is this amount of rain a sign of healthy, balanced climate?

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Monday, 10 February 2020 07:33 (one month ago) link

just a classic wet weather prank!

Homegrown Georgia speedster Ladd McConkey (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 10 February 2020 07:36 (one month ago) link

I dunno that it's the safest to be lying face-down in water that's filling an asphalt area which hundreds of cars drip oil and pump exhaust into every day, especially when the water will have probably overflowed from drains also containing garbage & sewage, but you gotta get clout somewhere.

That town is on the coast, though, the lads should probably pop over and have a healthier swim in the Pacific Oce--

CNN: The Pacific Ocean is so acidic due to rising carbon levels that it's dissolving Dungeness crabs' shells

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Monday, 10 February 2020 12:25 (one month ago) link

LNP senators know that seizing the opportunity to boldly set a global agenda and revitalise our economy by switching to renewable energy would only cut emissions and create jobs, two absolute wastes of time when the real reason for bushfires is out there. Instead, we must expand governmental spying powers to prove that a "sinister collective" is responsible for all the arsons by cross-referencing all citizens' metadata.

It's probably those pre-teen arsonists coordinating over Whatsapp to set fire to all them crabs, too.

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 08:21 (one month ago) link

As of the election last year, the IMF estimated government subsidies to fossil fuel companies to be $29 billion in Australia, or 2.3% of GDP.

The operators of a coal-fired electric power station notified the New South Wales government in 2015 of their intention to close in 2022. At this stage it had been operating at half-capacity for two years, due to its age. Even the local member, frothing coal lobbyistenthusiast, said at the time "it's 45 years old. It's clapped out. It's now the most inefficient and dirtiest power generation in the country".

Said operators have refused goverment entreaties to put any money into repairing it ahead of the closure. After five years prep time to shift to other means of supply, the government has now planned to spend $300 million to keep the station burning coal (but only outputting half the power it should) for another six years.


"Liddell is a dud and should shut by its use-by date in 2023, or even sooner," Nature Conservation Council campaigns director Brad Smith said.

"If the government is going to spend $300 million on energy, it should invest in pumped hydro and batteries, not extending the life of a dirty old clunker like Liddell. Keeping the station open would be an obscene waste of taxpayers' money."

The leaked report found keeping Liddell open would make the grid more unstable and add significantly to Australia's greenhouse gas emissions.

"Instead of obsessing about coal," Mr Smith said, "there are 21 storage projects that are ready to roll in NSW that the Federal Government should expedite funding for."

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 10:55 (one month ago) link

Here's Exactly How a Trump 2020 Win Would Spark a Nightmare Climate Scenario

The Rhodium Group, a New York-based research firm, calculated in December that for humankind to keep warming below 2 degrees, we need to reduce emissions a colossal one-third from current levels by 2030. They identified five crucial things that could get us globally on track toward closing that gap: the European Union adopting a Green New Deal, Brazil halting its destruction of the Amazon Rainforest, China’s economic growth and the emissions it produces slowing to a more sustainable rate, and demand for electricity in India growing only moderately and being met mainly by renewables. The fifth one is Trump losing in 2020.

A re-elected Trump would keep dismantling environmental rules —he's slashed 95 in total so far— that limit fossil fuel companies or other polluters of the atmosphere. And he would make the damage much harder to reverse by continuing to stack the courts with conservative judges who tend to rule on the side of greenhouse gas-spewing corporations.

There already aren’t many years left to reduce emissions on the scale necessary to avoid further devastation. Trump's second term would at the very least be more wasted time. If the U.S. is to have any hope of meeting the 1.5 degrees goal, its emissions need to be reduced 40 or 50 percent from 2005 levels by 2030. But the Trump administration has wiped out Barack Obama–era emissions standards for cars and trucks, allowed oil and gas producers to release all the methane they want and engaged in many other acts of climate destruction. This would leave only six years to close a massive gap after the end of a second Trump term, after which U.S. emissions cuts might only hit 12 to 19 percent, according to the Rhodium group. And that estimate is based only on existing Trump rollbacks.

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 22:05 (one month ago) link

“But that is not the main point,” said Tinsley-Marshall. “I think it’s pretty clear that something pretty catastrophic is going on.”

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 13 February 2020 23:36 (one month ago) link

Ten years of why are bees disappearing? articles are now giving way to climate change probably articles, too

We can use AI to train drones to pollinate, right?

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Thursday, 13 February 2020 23:55 (one month ago) link

Yeah, I've definitely noticed the bugsplat thing – used to have to wash the car after a London-Glasgow trip, now it's basically clean.

stet, Friday, 14 February 2020 00:31 (one month ago) link

global warming's terrifying new moth

imago, Friday, 14 February 2020 01:04 (one month ago) link

Maybe bugs are evolving to stay away from highways?

nickn, Friday, 14 February 2020 01:04 (one month ago) link

ftr this shit (insect numbers crashing) absolutely terrifies me, beyond most things

imago, Friday, 14 February 2020 01:04 (one month ago) link

xp: It's everywhere, even protected parks/wilderness.

Hallmann et al, 2017. More than 75 percent decline over 27 years in total flying insect biomass in protected areas. PloS one, 12(10), p.e0185809.

forgotten even to the sea (Sanpaku), Friday, 14 February 2020 01:08 (one month ago) link


imago, Friday, 14 February 2020 01:16 (one month ago) link

Detailed visual piece on the spread of the Australian fires, the role of climate change, and the future


(Open on desktop and let it load - intensive illustration using satellite imagery.)

Tom Beer is often referred to as the ‘godfather’ of bushfire and climate science in Australia. In 1988, he released the first research on the effects of climate change on bushfires in Australia.

While researching in 1987, when climate science was in its infancy, Dr Beer attempted to find a year where the temperature had varied more than 3.5 degrees above the average so that he could study what happened in that year as a model for the future. He was unable to find one.

“Even finding a year that was 1 degree warmer was impossible,” he says.

And according to Dr Beer, the 2019 fires may already be the new normal, even if the world limits emissions under the Paris Agreement.

“Even limiting warming to 1.5 degrees under the Paris Agreement is more or less, in terms of bushfires, what you’re seeing this year. If we get up to 3 degrees, then the fires are going to get worse.”

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Wednesday, 19 February 2020 23:01 (one month ago) link

A similar multi-media piece on the health effects of days / months of living in smoke:


“We’re all currently living in a big experiment,” says Donna Green, an associate professor at the University of New South Wales’ climate change research centre.

“We know it will be bad, we just don’t know how bad.”

In Sydney and Canberra, hospitals were pushed to breaking point.

David Caldicott, an emergency department doctor and senior clinical lecturer at the Australian National University, describes smoke-filled rooms, a jump in emergency respiratory cases and “many anxious parents with kids with asthma”.

The smoke that blanketed the city was so bad that it caused MRI scanners to stop working.

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Thursday, 20 February 2020 09:08 (one month ago) link

“Even limiting warming to 1.5 degrees under the Paris Agreement is more or less, in terms of bushfires, what you’re seeing this year. If we get up to 3 degrees, then the fires are going to get worse.”

this is some exemplary scientist deadpan here

Generous Grant for Stepladder Creamery (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 20 February 2020 09:42 (one month ago) link

Pyrenees having a totally normal one pic.twitter.com/pUJZRwdzkV

— Elisha Sessions 🆒 (@elishasessions) February 20, 2020

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 20 February 2020 09:55 (one month ago) link

the weather in France has been so fucked this winter

juntos pedemos (Euler), Thursday, 20 February 2020 09:58 (one month ago) link

Morrison and the LNP government have announced that they will be defunding and closing the Bushfire and Natural Hazard Cooperative Research Centre established under the previous Labor government, a few days after the centre published a report on a conference analysis re: Are we ready for cascading extreme weather hazards beyond our experience?.

The conference was held immediately before six months of cascading extreme weather hazards.

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Wednesday, 4 March 2020 07:05 (one month ago) link

LNP: the Bureau of Meteorology is a hoax

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Wednesday, 4 March 2020 21:44 (one month ago) link

January 6 2020: Morrison announces

Bushfire recovery will take priority over the budget surplus in a mammoth federal program starting with a $2 billion fund that could surge in size over the next few years to rebuild after the summer crisis.

Cash payments are being promised immediately to help families, employers and local councils to recover from the bushfires, with the outlays expected to trim the budget surplus this year by $500 million.

March 2 2020: the government admits that this fund does not exist at all, let alone that it could surge in size, and argue that this doesn't matter because it was always notional. When a senator explains that "notional" means "imaginary," they withdraw the statement and ask for time to look up the word and submit another meaning in writing later.

(5 farmers have been issued loans.)

January 19 2020: the goverment announces that $76 million will be taken from the $2 billion fund in order to protect and restore the tourism industry in the wake of the bushfires (if they ever end).


March 5 2020: the tourism industry is told there will be no financial support to help them weather impact of the coronavirus, which is already three times larger than the impact of the bushfires.


Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Friday, 6 March 2020 02:27 (one month ago) link

I worry that your posts itt are causing me to overappreciate other government's responses!

Andrew Farrell, Friday, 6 March 2020 08:28 (one month ago) link

hey, they can respond when it's urgent: before entering parliament, the Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction set up a fake company in the Cayman Islands to "protect internationally significant wetlands from dying" by selling water to the government, and three years ago the government paid this one company (started in a tax haven by a government minister) $80 million dollars for water that does not exist.

This week, as the wetlands are still endangered, they're looking into giving it another $2 million for water.

Fantastic. Great move. Well done Angus.

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Saturday, 7 March 2020 01:31 (one month ago) link


The Netherlands' leading climate denier died in 2008, and was an inveterate hoarder archivist. Researchers going through his SIXTEEN METER HIGH stack of papers have found detailed records on how Shell, Bayer and other corps paid him €500K over nine years to undermine public belief in climate change, and humanity’s role in it.

The Managing director of Shell, Huub Van Engelshoven, personally commissioned him from 1989.

Böttcher used the money to set up an international network of climate sceptics. He produced multiple reports, books and opinion pieces. In these he wrote, for instance, that the greenhouse effect doesn’t exist and that CO2 is not dangerous, quite the opposite: it’s ‘good for plants’.

The doubt created led, among other things, to a lack of political support for regulatory measures with regard to CO2 reduction during the 1990s.

His 24 sponsors finally stopped funding him in 1998, when they concluded that the signing of the Kyoto Protocol had created a tipping point at which flat denial was no longer viable.

Doctorow: "We know who his political allies were: the VVD party. When the Netherlands' dikes fail and the country begins to drown, these politicians might still be running for office."

Fantastic. Great move. Well done (sic), Saturday, 7 March 2020 22:11 (one month ago) link

There are still multiple contained and uncontained fires in the state of Victoria, Australia, including a peat fire.

The Labor premier of Victoria has today lifted a moratorium on onshore gas exploration, with drilling and extraction to begin from July 2021.

Dollarmite Is My Name (sic), Tuesday, 17 March 2020 05:14 (three weeks ago) link

sneaked that one out, the fucker.

Meanwhile Zalli Stegall has paused her climate change bill.

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Tuesday, 17 March 2020 05:17 (three weeks ago) link

multiple contained and uncontained fires in the state of Victoria, Australia

Although the last of the fires in neighbouring New South Wales was extinguished after a fortnight of torrential rain suppressed most of them, and another two weeks of effort by firefighters on the reduced blazes. Thus ending 240 days of uncontrolled fires in the state. Maybe the rain will also have softened up the ground for the fracking that got licensed a few months ago?

Meanwhile, in the next state up the coast, documents and video have leaked from the Indian-owned Adani mining company, revealing that their announced plans to export 10 million tonnes of coal at first, expanding to 27 million tonnes over time are a cover for plans to export 40 million tonnes at first, expanding to ONE HUNDRED MILLION TONNES, nearly double the limit to which they are regulated.

Dollarmite Is My Name (sic), Thursday, 19 March 2020 20:11 (two weeks ago) link

"Reminder that (the firefighters) are still volunteers, without breathing masks, taking unpaid time off work"

Except for the ones that are unemployed: they have had their benefits cut off because they have not been actively seeking work. (The dole has not been raised in 25 years, incidentally. Housing prices have roughly quadrupled in Sydney in that time.)

― don't care didn't ask still clappin (sic), Friday, January 3, 2020 9:20 AM (two months ago)

now that the firefighters can go back to applying for jobs and thus qualify for the dole, it was raised today: by 48c a day.

Dollarmite Is My Name (sic), Friday, 20 March 2020 07:12 (two weeks ago) link

Scott Morrison has launched a high-paid National COVID-19 Co-ordination Commission, to advise the government on appropriate actions to take. It comprises:

- Morrison's departmental secretary
- the Minister for Fascism's departmental secretary
- the head of the Finance Department
- the Managing Director of a Hong Kong-owned company that bought large parts of Australia's electricity supply when they were privatised, and operates gas and coal stations in three of Australia's five states
- the former CEO of Australia's national telecommunications agency, who oversaw it being privatised
- the 73-year-old former owner of a trucking company, who is worth $880 million
- one former elected member of Parliament

and is headed by a former mining magnate, who was in the news three weeks ago for the amount of insider trading he has done this year, buying up shares of a gas drilling and pipeling company of which he is deputy chairman.

Here is a list of the doctors, epidemiologists, nurses, scientists and hospital administrators on the commission:

Dollarmite Is My Name (sic), Wednesday, 25 March 2020 19:00 (one week ago) link

Due to Coronavirus, the US Forest Service is "canceling prescribed burns across the West, potentially making the upcoming fire season worse."

Dollarmite Is My Name (sic), Thursday, 26 March 2020 07:13 (one week ago) link

cool cool cool

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 26 March 2020 16:43 (one week ago) link

"The federal government is pushing for expansions of coal mines to keep people in work, amid expectations that hundreds of thousands of people will lose their jobs due to the economic slump caused by COVID-19."


Dollarmite Is My Name (sic), Friday, 27 March 2020 22:02 (one week ago) link

Their fucking answer for everything. How about employing them to install solar or mine any of the other things that are in the ground in Australia (Lithium, Nickel, Cobalt, Graphite ...)

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Friday, 27 March 2020 22:22 (one week ago) link

Due to the coronavirus, Parliament is not sitting until August.

Therefore, opposition MPs are not able to question the government government on, today, approving ten years of logging native forests in Victoria, or yesterday approving coal mining underneath the Greater Sydney reservoir, which supplies water for the most populous region on the continent.

Dollarmite Is My Name (sic), Wednesday, 1 April 2020 05:26 (six days ago) link

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