'Children of Men', the new Alfonso Cuaron sci-fi flick

with additional "hey is Tom Arnold actually funny or is Cameron et al editing successfully around an ongoing coke frenzy"

lmao otm

haha

I was old enough when I saw True Lies that I found it infuriatingly offensive and beneath Jamie Lee Curtis and esp. Cameron (who at that point was more or less all killer, no filler). I guess it's "fun" in the "hey, it's locker room talk, we're just guys" sense.

sic otm

although it was his sister who was apparently at the center of a large drug operation

enterprising lot, those arnolds

Timely thread revive, since Children of Men has gotten more write-ins than any of the actual choices: 2006's Oscar Nominees

I remember seeing City of Men in a virtually empty theatre perhaps opening weekend and finding it really profoundly moving. I interviewed the director once and told him the movie made me want to be a better person, which is true.

i'm really surprised that ryan still isn't into this!

i don't know what the standards for a movie's intellectual depth are supposed to be, i can't say i have a strong feeling that there's a definite dialectical structure at work in all the world-building elements to this, but i would think it has the rare merit of setting a very clear and concrete idea of hope before the audience. or say, of the role of hope in human life, highlighted in obvious ways by all the sci-fi/speculative premise-setting work that subtracts it from many of the places it would ordinarily be discerned.

the content of that idea is maybe not radical, maybe not far from a version of liberal humanism, but maybe what it does distinctively about some humanist vision is to insist on hope's fragility. even a secular liberal humanism tends to bring pretty high-powered resources to bear on the idea that human values are blah blah blah worth protecting etc., which could underrate their real dependence on life. (i would not be surprised if in the zizek commentary he starts yammering about agamben at some point? not that i know anything about either.)

(the readings above that make the ending perfectly uncertain are right. it's better for kee to make contact because then the question is not, does she make it, it's, can humanity be trusted to do the right thing for/with her, alone with child, protector/messenger/courier dead, when all its hopes and fears converge on her? a boatload of concerned scientists might be a relatively positive sign, but the point of the corniness of the name is that virtually everything onscreen has been some part/stage of 'the human project' and as such is something human beings have typically found all too human ways to fuck up.)

maybe ryan's feeling comes from the way that the movie is very economical in its plotting and dialogue, so it doesn't seem like the ideas get talked out enough. but my sense is that if it does more intellectual work, it must do it by its power of image-making.

there are lots of routes from there to the content of the story (e.g. the opening depiction of a screen-bound society, the contrast between the idealistic die-hard image-maker and the mausoleum-ed thoughtless image-hoarder, the whole range of stuff connectable with the traditional idea of humanity being made in god's image), but it seems like the most deliberate hook must be the lingo for referring to the nodes in the network that can communicate with the human project as 'mirrors'. in which case the ping pong ball trick kind of serves to demonstrate that owen and moore are still capable of being each other's mirror > seeing the humanity in each other > playing amid the despair-inducing reality of the chaotic vulnerable human situation (i.e. trusting the other enough to let the guard down, take the sad face off, and open up to the possibility of failure - jasper's 'pull my finger' joke is like a version of this, and though he has some understanding with syd, syd's meet-and-greet routine shows him to be like jasper but not in that he uses play as a mask for cruelty and exploitation of vulnerability).

it seems like one of the most important lines in the movie is one of kee's, when she's relating how she became pregnant, and she remarks in astonishment that she was/realized she was alive (i.e. alive in a heightened sense, the first time, in the movie's setup, she would have ever felt so). after the baby kicks, i think? that's what i meant above when i said the movie puts an idea before us in a concrete way, and maybe doing so by itself is an accomplishment if it does it clearly. the implication would be that barring changes (human project research etc), she is the only person who knows what it's like to be alive, except insofar as maybe some people still remember. (here, the importance of moore's line about the ringing in the ears, which gets invoked at least three times in the audio.) the line of interpretation from there follows the way she relates to others and the way others relate to her, since one of the most characteristic things about life is how it responds to life. (the manger scene / pregnancy reveal has its traditional meaning, but not untransformed: the one who speaks most authoritatively, i.e. realistically about it is her, talking about how fucked up it is that they cut the cows' nipples off to fit the milking machines on their udders.)

owen's almost immediate reaction at the meeting with the fishes is imprudent and bordering on politically naive (it's hard to think he would agree with himself if allowed to slip back into a more cynical or fatalistic mood), but it seems like the truest response to kee's pregnancy: make it public, i.e. let everyone see (spread the gospel, etc.). maybe because it shows him responding to life by wanting to connect (everyone).

that is all well-put and thought through, but basically it just comes down to ryan being rong

well he's usually so unrong

the content of that idea is maybe not radical, maybe not far from a version of liberal humanism, but maybe what it does distinctively about some humanist vision is to insist on hope's fragility. even a secular liberal humanism tends to bring pretty high-powered resources to bear on the idea that human values are blah blah blah worth protecting etc., which could underrate their real dependence on life.

This is well put and persuasive. I've never been terribly articulate (even in my own mind) about why I'm not convinced by this movie, but yeah it seems to boil down to my feeling that the core idea of hope is so...banal maybe? But yeah maybe that banality is contextualized here in the way you describe in the rest of your post.

well he's usually so unrong

true

I think it's true that hope IS banal, but it's also true that the very act of choosing to have children is an expression of (foolish?) hope in the face of everything we know about the world, and this film pushes that idea to one extreme.

even if children mean nothing to you, think about hw incredibly fucked the world would be with that loss! half the people in my life only really feel alive when they’re investing in their kids

j.'s intuition that Agamben may be relevant here is on point but perhaps even more so Esposito, who I remember has written some things about pregnancy (or the relationship between mother and fetus) as modeling a more positive framework for biopolitics. (I'd need to track down the specifics of that though...and I wouldn't be surprised if it was "problematic," as they say.)

Hope is both banal and foolish (redundant?) and is best expressed in how we bear and care for yet more of our own kind, despite knowing we’re all ultimately doomed. Hope is pushing the rock up the hill with the knowledge that it will never stay on top. Dying on a rowboat, knowing you did a tikkun olam the best you could, that’s all we can hope for.

There’s the off chance our children make many more children and eventually colonize the stars. But we’ll still die out. Hope is dumb and you can’t live without it. Who needs hope? Everyone. Who uses hope as an instrument? Assholes.

I'm watching this for about the tenth time and it's virtually perfect. one thing that always stuck out like a sore thumb is how bad the photoshopping is in the bit where the camera pans across Jasper's awards photos and newspaper clippings.

Virtually perfect otm

Been meaning to watch this with my older one, but I'm not sure she's mature enough for the really fine line it walks between hope and despair.

scrolling through Netflix and paralysed by choice sometimes you just have to... watch CoM again.

that scene that starts with the ping pong ball game in the car!

It always reminds me of Hitchcock: when the camera is at its most self-consciously dramatic is always the point where the story is being pushed on, Cuaron uses arthouse grammar in a mainstream narrative... I'm too pished to work thru why I think this is so major

keep me posted :)

i must have seen this film more than any other film save the Wicker Man by now

one of those movies that seems more dismally prophetic with every passing year

must watch this i guess

nah it's shite

been meaning to rewatch this for like 2 years but i'm always too scared to

before it was released the terrible ad campaign made me think it was going to be a real slog but it is so tense and unrelenting and much more of an action film than i could have imagined.

"Poor fugees—after escaping the worst atrocities and finally making it to England, our government hunts them down like cockroaches"

The Mads are Back podcast's latest episode today talked about this -- understandable that there's plenty about the present that brings it to mind.

Also...

like if I was setting an apocalyptic film in 2027 I might have a guy wear a CUOMO/STABENOW 2016 shirt.

― Pangborn to be Wilde (Dr Morbius), Thursday, August 9, 2012 11:28 AM (six years ago)

At this point I'd take that combination in a heartbeat.

The Mads are Back podcast's latest episode today talked about this

Also, fwiw, they called it the best movie of the century so far.

OK, watched this with my older kid. Hadn't seen it in at least a decade, still holds up, still a masterpiece, even more trenchant than before. Case in point: my daughter, during the fighting scenes at the end, asked "do you think this is what it's like in Syria?" And I said ... yeah, probably something just like this.

Clive Owen is a tough actor to get a bead on. Sort of minor dude, breaks out belatedly with "Croupier," ebbs and flows in and out of the spotlight despite being handsome and charismatic and talented. I guess he's in the new Ang Lee movie, which is ... who knows. Especially with Will Smith starring.

this and The Knick are career highlights

A long time ago, Clive Owen came to buy trousers in a shop I worked in and I was too star-struck to serve him.

Daniel Craig also came in but didn't buy anything, although I did wish I'd asked him "What fettle, Geordie?"

and that he's answered "Canny fettle" and then we were married.

Saw this as a free screening at Glasgow Film Festival yesterday morning. I must have watched it 3 or 4 times at home over the years, but this was the first time I'd seen it in the cinema and, though the 35mm print was pretty rough, it was still great to have that extra scale and I loved it as much as ever. Knowing the foreground story so well, it was especially nice to be able to appreciate how much attention to detail there is in the background and around the edges of the action.

j.'s intuition that Agamben may be relevant here is on point but perhaps even more so Esposito, who I remember has written some things about pregnancy (or the relationship between mother and fetus) as modeling a more positive framework for biopolitics. (I'd need to track down the specifics of that though...and I wouldn't be surprised if it was "problematic," as they say.)

― ryan, Thursday, July 12, 2018 9:59 PM (one year ago

haven't looked this up yet but—wouldn't be surprised to see a lotta arendt / natality stuff in there?

I think about this movie all the fucking time as horrible shit sweeps the planet like coronavirus. need to rewatch it.

I think I’ve seen it six or seven times now.

Krakow, there’s one scene when he’s on the bus passing through security and the famous image of the hooded man from Abu grhaib is being played out in the background.

Barely even the background, iirc!

Yep, the arrival at Bexhill is a harrowing scene, but not overdone I don't think.

I was noticing this time how well Theo's (functioning) alcohol problem is portrayed. It's never mentioned out loud, but is always right there, from the opening moments stopping to top up his coffee with whisky on the street through his continual furtive sips to finally sterilising his hands with same said whisky before the delivery of the baby. A couple of other moments... when he meets Luke in the pub to pass on the transit papers he ends up with three full pints in front of him and immediately before at the Ark of the Arts with his cousin Nigel there's a whole collection of bottles on the table in front of Theo and he makes sure to take his wine with him when they move to chat at the window. Small things, but I thought they all subtly added up to add authenticity to that part of his character.

There's an element of "why bother?" that courses through his character. That's a trait you see in lots of movies, in lots of anti-heroes, but in this one obviously the scenario is such that in a sense such an attitude is at least somewhat justified. He just wants to drink, go about his business and wait to die like everyone else. He's kind of a microcosm of society's collective rock bottom. But unlike a lot of those aforementioned anti-hero characters, we learn he was not always this cynical and broken, we learn how he became this way, which supports his shift to full hero once he gets a glimmer of hope.

Yeah, absolutely. This amazing scene comes immediately to mind in that regard. I love how this is shot with Clive Owen silently breaking down in the foreground as the blurred out conversations happens in the other half of the frame...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS8Ho_gZ6RQ

I fancy Clive Owen.

Not somewhat justified, absolutely justified. And yeah as a mainly straight dude Owen is hawt.

i rewatched this last night with friends and we kept talking about owen being hot

also i hadn't seen it in about a decade and what a film. although i did notice how many times owen walked into a room and a character started monologuing at him, like a video game

I only said 'somewhat' justified because this is a world where millions and millions of people have experienced similar tragedies. But yeah, that scene is killer.

I know we've talked about it, but it's hard to believe this movie more or less got ignored. Or for all I know mostly has stayed generally overlooked. It's kind of like the ... Elliott Smith of movies? Sad, tragic, often perfect, but dealt a bad hand by fate. Had to be reminded that "The Departed" won best picture that year (fwiw), but I imagine if the same slate of 2006 films were in play this year, this would have had a better chance of getting nominated, let alone winning. This or "Pan's Labyrinth," perhaps. Though of course both Cuaron and Del Toro got theirs soon enough.