Veidt is not an effeminite euro-pansy. He's supposed to be a liberal/humanist ideal - in perfect shape, a macho sex symbol, an enlightened lefty, etc.
He was supposed to be an effeminate euro-pansy, cf Rorschach's "don't trust Veidt, maybe he's gay?" musing.
Also I'm not sure you actually saw what he looked like in his costume in the comic book if your first thought on him is "oh, macho sex symbol!"
― Lots of praying with no breakfast! (HI DERE), Thursday, 19 February 2009 18:53 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm referring to the way he functions within the world of Watchmen - with action figures modelled on himself, women swooning over him, peddling sexually charged products based on himself, etc.
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 February 2009 18:57 (fifteen years ago) link
duh of course he looks gay in his costume. as Morbz accurately points out all superheroes look pretty gay.
Rorschach thinks everyone is a homo/deviant/communist lolz at deferring to his vp for accuracy
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 February 2009 18:58 (fifteen years ago) link
> Also I'm not sure you actually saw what he looked like in his costume in the comic book if your first thought on him is "oh, macho sex symbol!"
As The Monarch said of Phantom Limb, he wears a lot of purple for a white guy.
― Magdalen Goobers (Oilyrags), Thursday, 19 February 2009 18:58 (fifteen years ago) link
Women threw themselves at Simon LeBon, does that make him a macho sex symbol?
Women continue to throw themselves at Prince, does that make him a macho sex symbol?
― Lots of praying with no breakfast! (HI DERE), Thursday, 19 February 2009 19:00 (fifteen years ago) link
yes and yes
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 February 2009 19:01 (fifteen years ago) link
Rock Hudson also a macho sex symbol btw
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 February 2009 19:02 (fifteen years ago) link
hmm okay Prince is questionable
it just seems obvious to me that within the Watchmen narrative the whole point of Veidt's character is that he represents the IDEAL of western society, the achievement of some kind of rational, humanist pinnacle - and then revealing that the flipside of that character is that he is still a mass murderer. He's a best intentions kind of character. Painting him as a lolz "republic serial villain" complete with threatening homo underpinnings is missing the point entirely.
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 February 2009 19:05 (fifteen years ago) link
we all know how Snyder feels about effeminite pansies after 300, right...
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 19 February 2009 19:06 (fifteen years ago) link
^ this. veidt should seem flawless, beautiful, handsome, kind, compassionate, thoughtful, etc. like the perfect presidential candidate. playing up the creepo stuff undercuts the character. that said, i'm gonna give the movie some leeway to reenvision.
― contenderizer, Thursday, 19 February 2009 19:28 (fifteen years ago) link
I said this a long time ago upthread but Veidt is The Mentalist (it only makes perfect sense)http://media.sheknows.com/articles/Baker-Simon-Mentalist.jpg
I can only hope the actor who plays veidt in the movie doesn't come off as impotent as night owl.
― CaptainLorax, Thursday, 19 February 2009 19:29 (fifteen years ago) link
Veidt has never come across that way to me, even on my first reading of "Watchmen". He has always come across as somewhat imperious and condescending, the type of ersatz goody-two-shoes who will cheerfully lead you down a path, then stab you in the back in the name of personal advancement. I don't think he's trying to save the world out of any type of humanistic ideal; he's trying to save the world because he wants to prove that he's the only one who can (hence the self-important codename "Ozymandius").
― Lots of praying with no breakfast! (HI DERE), Thursday, 19 February 2009 19:32 (fifteen years ago) link
Really wishing there was a Venture Brother movie instead.
― Nicolars (Nicole), Thursday, 19 February 2009 19:44 (fifteen years ago) link
He has always come across as somewhat imperious and condescending, the type of ersatz goody-two-shoes who will cheerfully lead you down a path, then stab you in the back in the name of personal advancement.
Tom Cruise
― Nicolars (Nicole), Thursday, 19 February 2009 19:45 (fifteen years ago) link
> Really wishing there was a Venture Brother movie instead.
I heard a rumor that's what's up after S4.
― Magdalen Goobers (Oilyrags), Thursday, 19 February 2009 21:12 (fifteen years ago) link
Venture Bros is totally the Watchmen of superhero cartoons.
― chap, Thursday, 19 February 2009 21:24 (fifteen years ago) link
Lots more clips here: http://io9.com/5156689/6-more-watchmen-clips-to-put-you-in-the-costumed-adventuring-mood
― Pancakes Hackman, Thursday, 19 February 2009 22:19 (fifteen years ago) link
I always thought Cruise was perfect for Veidt.
― WARS OF ARMAGEDDON (Karaoke Version) (Sparkle Motion), Thursday, 19 February 2009 23:15 (fifteen years ago) link
yeah Cruise would be good cuz he wouldn't have to actually do any acting
― Comic Book Morbius (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 20 February 2009 00:08 (fifteen years ago) link
Guys Ozymandias is not a midget. Maybe Cruise would have made a good Big Figure.
― Pancakes Hackman, Friday, 20 February 2009 00:20 (fifteen years ago) link
Wil Wheaton liked it.
― James Mitchell, Friday, 20 February 2009 00:26 (fifteen years ago) link
so, apparently they're re-shooting the ending and re-dubbing some of Rorschach's lines
― Father Time has always been our most reliable film critic (latebloomer), Friday, 20 February 2009 04:22 (fifteen years ago) link
man linda f looks dope in that clip i gotta watch that movie
― harry s tfuman (and what), Friday, 20 February 2009 04:27 (fifteen years ago) link
her cameo as rorschach's mom is pretty cool
― Father Time has always been our most reliable film critic (latebloomer), Friday, 20 February 2009 04:31 (fifteen years ago) link
― Pancakes Hackman, Friday, February 20, 2009 12:20 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
you realize that like every male lead in hollywood is pint-sized right? they have ways of shooting around that.
― s1ocki, Friday, 20 February 2009 04:49 (fifteen years ago) link
he's trying to save the world because he wants to prove that he's the only one who can (hence the self-important codename "Ozymandius").
Except that the name "Ozymandias" (as opposed to "Ramses II") is only remembered due to Shelley's poem (which is quoted in the comic):
I met a traveller from an antique landWho said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stoneStand in the desert. Near them on the sand,Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frownAnd wrinkled lip and sneer of cold commandTell that its sculptor well those passions readWhich yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.And on the pedestal these words appear:"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"Nothing beside remains: round the decayOf that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Picking the name "Ozymandias" is most likely foreshadowing on Moore's part, but you could also argue that Veidt must've known about the poem, and that he picked the name knowing subconsciously that he would ultimately fail.
― Tuomas, Friday, 20 February 2009 06:40 (fifteen years ago) link
Picking the name "Ozymandias" is most likely foreshadowing on Moore's part
You don't say.
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 20 February 2009 06:42 (fifteen years ago) link
nedzing!
― butt-rock miyagi (rogermexico.), Friday, 20 February 2009 06:47 (fifteen years ago) link
I fished out my copy of the deluxe Graffiti Designs' Watchmen and some of the notes are kinda funny in retrospect. Bear in mind that these were shorthand notes on fleshing out the characters and not on casting decisions.
Dr. Manhattan: Bowie, Elric, permanent 25 going on 44
Ozymandias: Barry Foster (which is the most spot-on description ever), Michaelangelo's David, Julio Iglesias (!), white suit, high forehead, blond hair, Redford, Kennedy, rich, perfect, loner, sees world as organism with him at center
Nite Owl: Ordinary, fallible, human, heroic though not naturally courageous, Paul Newman, Furrillo (a.k.a. Daniel Travanti from Hill Street Blues)
Rorschach: Psychopath or saint?, quintessential Ditko, wild card, Bronson
The Comedian: Dirty Harry meets Nick Fury meets Hannibal of A-Team, one man version of the Dirty Tricks division of the C.I.A.
Silk Spectre: deprived childhood, Dunaway, Streep
― Chris Barrus (Elvis Telecom), Friday, 20 February 2009 07:15 (fifteen years ago) link
see, now that's a cast. redford, newman, bronson, eastwood & streep. like at least 20 years ago. and, uh, elric. why didn't they go that way?
― contenderizer, Friday, 20 February 2009 07:20 (fifteen years ago) link
I think Ozymandias looks effeminate in his costume only because all the superheroes in Watchmen are supposed to look a bit silly. Shakey is right that inside the comic's universe Veidt is supposed to be seen as this perfect humanist superman, not as a suspicious pansy.
― Tuomas, Friday, 20 February 2009 07:24 (fifteen years ago) link
Though eighties was also the decade when effeminate guys were considered hot. I guess Gibbons just drew him according to the beauty standards of the era.
― Tuomas, Friday, 20 February 2009 07:28 (fifteen years ago) link
he's kinda effeminate-seeming in the comic, but in a radiant, manly, many-large-teeth sort of way. movie's portrayal seems more like depraved nazi bureaucrat
― you are nude spock (contenderizer), Friday, 20 February 2009 07:31 (fifteen years ago) link
I hope they haven't made him too villainous in the movie, because that would ruin the surprise for those not familiar with the story. When I first read the comic I never guessed he'd be the bad guy.
― Tuomas, Friday, 20 February 2009 07:34 (fifteen years ago) link
THANK YOU FOR RUINING 2009
― you are nude spock (contenderizer), Friday, 20 February 2009 07:36 (fifteen years ago) link
joeks, bruv.
Because "movie stars" make piss-poor superheroes, esp. in movies like this one.
― Pancakes Hackman, Friday, 20 February 2009 11:16 (fifteen years ago) link
RogerEbert.com editor Jim Emerson on approaching the book and the movie as separate things.
― Pancakes Hackman, Friday, 20 February 2009 13:18 (fifteen years ago) link
― James Mitchell, Friday, 20 February 2009 13:37 (fifteen years ago) link
Really well put together!
― I feel twitterers around me (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 February 2009 14:13 (fifteen years ago) link
The presenter doesn't really look like 80s though, more like an 00s idea of the 80s. And it's a bit too obvious that "Veidt Music Network" should have Veidt as number 1.
― Tuomas, Friday, 20 February 2009 14:34 (fifteen years ago) link
But otherwise it's cool.
"Remember when VMN actually still showed music videos?" = best Youtube comment ever.
― James Mitchell, Friday, 20 February 2009 14:40 (fifteen years ago) link
Because "movie stars" make piss-poor superheroes, esp. in movies like this one.― Pancakes Hackman
― Pancakes Hackman
??? not sure what you mean. thought keaton and bale were at least decent as batman. besides them, i can't think of many movie stars who've played superheros. cept in shit movies like batman forever and daredevil that probably couldn't have been saved no matter who was in 'em.
and what "movies like this one" are there? as far as i know, this is the first big-budget revisionist/subversive superhero flick.
― welcome little swetty (contenderizer), Friday, 20 February 2009 16:17 (fifteen years ago) link
this is the first big-budget revisionist/subversive superhero flick.
An argument could be made for The Incredibles, though it's coming at it from quite a different direction.
― chap, Friday, 20 February 2009 16:28 (fifteen years ago) link
The "Sub QUantum Intrinsic Device" thing sounds interesting...
― James Mitchell, Friday, 20 February 2009 16:31 (fifteen years ago) link
Bale was hardly a "movie star" at the time of Batman Begins. What was he most known for? A movie he made when he was 12, and American Psycho? Keaton, arguably, was a movie star, but certainly not of the Redford/Newman/Eastwood caliber. Otherwise, yeah, Clooney, Kilmer, Affleck, Halle Berry, Jennifer Garner . . . all of them have made terrible, terrible superheroes. If you want people to concentrate on the characters, use relative unknowns. Would the first "Superman" have been better with a movie star instead of unknown Chris Reeve?
as far as i know, this is the first big-budget revisionist/subversive superhero flick.
Argubaly "The Dark Knight," but OK, fair enough.
Anyway, lol fire:
Did you have previous experience with weapons?I got to go to the firing range quite a few times. It was a blast. I loved that part of it... There was a flame thrower range in the warehouse, that was a trip... The day that I did the scene where I have to keep the flame on this guy for ten seconds, do a ten count in your head, which is an exceedingly long time to pointing a flame thrower at some guy who has a little gel on him. You're just nailing him with these flames, and I kept pulling up early. I thought I'm going to really hurt this guy and I can't deal with that. And Zack's like, "Do it again man, and you're enjoying this too."I kept having to redo it because I was pulled up. And I'm smiling and having my little moment but, so finally the last time I did it, I held it on this guy, but in the mean time I'd done it so many times that the rice paddy had been covered with gasoline from shooting this thing. So I'm burning this guy up and I do it and I'm like, "yeah you fucking bastard," and I look down and there's flames coming at me, and it comes right up my leg and there's no one near me. I'm in the middle of a rice paddy. And I look up and I see Zack and his eyes are this big (makes big circles over his eyes) and all I can think is "I can't ruin the costume."The guys did so much work on the costume and I thought I'm just going to have to put it out myself. It was a nightmare (laughs). They're imperfect heroes. I kept the cigar lit the whole time, I just sucking on that.Jackie Earle Haley (Rorschach) interrupts:Rorschach would have been like "27, 28..." (Laughs)
I got to go to the firing range quite a few times. It was a blast. I loved that part of it... There was a flame thrower range in the warehouse, that was a trip... The day that I did the scene where I have to keep the flame on this guy for ten seconds, do a ten count in your head, which is an exceedingly long time to pointing a flame thrower at some guy who has a little gel on him. You're just nailing him with these flames, and I kept pulling up early. I thought I'm going to really hurt this guy and I can't deal with that. And Zack's like, "Do it again man, and you're enjoying this too."
I kept having to redo it because I was pulled up. And I'm smiling and having my little moment but, so finally the last time I did it, I held it on this guy, but in the mean time I'd done it so many times that the rice paddy had been covered with gasoline from shooting this thing. So I'm burning this guy up and I do it and I'm like, "yeah you fucking bastard," and I look down and there's flames coming at me, and it comes right up my leg and there's no one near me. I'm in the middle of a rice paddy. And I look up and I see Zack and his eyes are this big (makes big circles over his eyes) and all I can think is "I can't ruin the costume."
The guys did so much work on the costume and I thought I'm just going to have to put it out myself. It was a nightmare (laughs). They're imperfect heroes. I kept the cigar lit the whole time, I just sucking on that.
Jackie Earle Haley (Rorschach) interrupts:Rorschach would have been like "27, 28..." (Laughs)
― Pancakes Hackman, Friday, 20 February 2009 16:41 (fifteen years ago) link
Otherwise, yeah, Clooney, Kilmer, Affleck, Halle Berry, Jennifer Garner . . . all of them have made terrible, terrible superheroes.
cage too. but i don't blame the actors. all the folks you mention starred in irredeemably shitty movies. and while chris reeve was exc for superman, that doesn't really prove that serious actor-types are unsuited to superhero roles. my point about the cast wasn't that they're big stars (though they are/were), but that they're enormously capable, charismatic, sort-of-superheroic screen personalities. would have liked to see a bit more of that kind of firepower (charisma and acting chops) in the watchmen cast.
― welcome little swetty (contenderizer), Friday, 20 February 2009 18:07 (fifteen years ago) link
― I feel twitterers around me (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 February 2009 18:16 (fifteen years ago) link