1970 War Satires T/S: M*A*S*H* vs. CATCH-22 vs. Kelly's Heroes

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You'd think Donald Sutherland + Elliott Gould would win this one easy, but actually it's Donald Sutherland + Clint Eastwood + Telly Savalas + Don Rickles + Carroll O'Connor I keep watching over and over again.

C22 gets serious style points for masticating Art Garfunkel in the propeller of a doomed B-25 and having Orson Welles cameo as General Dreedle.

Seriously though, which articulates the pointlessness of warfare best? I'm too busy at the moment to postulate further but I'll be back.

(this thread brought to you by Altman's 81st birthday & Dr Morbius)

TOMBOT, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:16 (thirteen years ago) link

mash is really not that good

s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link

having Orson Welles cameo as General Dreedle

"I think that's a load of shit."

"It is a load of shit, sir."

(I'll have to go for Catch-22 -- it ain't the novel but it's still good. It'd also be my dad's choice of the three.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:24 (thirteen years ago) link

s1ocki OTM.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:24 (thirteen years ago) link

nah MASH kills those other 2

,,,,,,,,, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:26 (thirteen years ago) link

dudes the 2nd Unit Director of Catch-22 fell out of a plane and died during filming! He also lost his leg 2 years earlier filming a helicopter scene in You Only Live Twice!!! WTF

TOMBOT, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:26 (thirteen years ago) link

I'd go for MASH, but I would think it's more anti-military than anti-war. The show went more towards the anti-war side.

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:27 (thirteen years ago) link

kingfish that could be said about any of these movies for crying out loud.

Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:28 (thirteen years ago) link

true dat

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:30 (thirteen years ago) link

just a disclaimer, not trying to be mean

I think Catch-22 is the most anti-military of the bunch, actually. M*A*S*H* doesn't touch on the sheer insanity nearly as well C22 does.
KH is a bit too action haw-haws to stop and be poignant about shit, all you need to know is that this is a platoon of misfits that want to get real paid.

TOMBOT, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:31 (thirteen years ago) link

Wow, I've been meaning to start a thread on the Catch-22 movie. I saw it last week in a Theater for the first time (previous viewings had been on dvd. TV screens don't do it justice. At the very least, it's a technical masterpiece. M*A*S*H* is pretty good, altough it is the least of the full-fledged Altman-Gould films. Haven't seen Kelly's Heroes in a long time.

The thing is Catch-22 is blatently both Anti-Military and Anti-War, M*A*S*H* is really just Anti-Military.


Chairman Doinel (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 18:35 (thirteen years ago) link

C-22 because it goes for it. MASH is sorta wacky (or at least features people acting wacky), but C-22 is absurd and therefore cuts deeper, not just because it's "out there", but because its "out there"-ness rings so fucking true.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 19:02 (thirteen years ago) link

At the very least, it's a technical masterpiece.

At the cost of a man's LIFE!!! The irony etc.

TOMBOT, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 19:04 (thirteen years ago) link

sorry i meant the tv show

,,,,,,,,,,, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 19:11 (thirteen years ago) link

A decade late to the party, but the winner is The Big Red One.

Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 19:31 (thirteen years ago) link

T/S: The Big Red One vs. Cross of Iron

Rotatey Diskers With Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 21 February 2006 19:41 (thirteen years ago) link

twelve years pass...

thx to George Clooney's scooter accident in Sardinia, I have discovered he is producing a miniseries adap of Catch-22, with "Girls" alum Christopher Abbott as Yossarian.


I don't see a Doc Daneeka in the cast list.

the ignatius rock of ignorance (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 July 2018 14:13 (one year ago) link

I can't imagine this being any good at all. Was Clooney's "Fail-Safe" watchable?

Eliza D., Thursday, 12 July 2018 14:56 (one year ago) link

I watched it, so I guess so... if only for the novelty of Richard Dreyfuss as POTUS, and that it was broadcast live (whole different beast).

Comes down to the script and directors (GC one of three) for Catch-22 in large part, I imagine.

the ignatius rock of ignorance (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 July 2018 15:04 (one year ago) link

Kelly's Heroes was one of my favorite movies as a kid. Oddball was so fun to watch as a bohemian war hero, blasting loud gypsy music and loading his tank rounds with colorful paint.


<3 Sutherland's "Negative waves" monologue here:


Hazy Maze Cave (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 12 July 2018 15:32 (one year ago) link

xp "Catch-22" is just one of my all-time favorite novels, and I have a certain affection for the Nichols movie, so I don't want anyone to shit this up and have it become the popular conception of the material in people's minds.

Eliza D., Thursday, 12 July 2018 15:38 (one year ago) link

catch 22 is my fav book, but i haven't seen the nichols version yet. cautiously optimistic about the clooney one.

is the 1970 version worth digging up?

supreme court justice samuel lance-ito (voodoo chili), Thursday, 12 July 2018 15:48 (one year ago) link

Arkin is a great Yossarian, and there are some brilliant scenes. Nichols ladles on more shtick than is ideal (prostitute sashaying to Thus Spake Zarathustra).

the ignatius rock of ignorance (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 July 2018 15:52 (one year ago) link

Still the broadly comic stuff is what mostly works best.

the ignatius rock of ignorance (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 July 2018 15:53 (one year ago) link

reminds me of Ulysses from the same era: more like a moving slide show tour of the book than a fully functional movie, not sure either of them are filmable books.

ABBA Bill O'Reilly (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 12 July 2018 16:06 (one year ago) link

a faithfully filmed tv series of catch-22 might wind up looking a bit like...arrested development season 4 lol with all the overlapping plotlines and mixed-up chronology.

supreme court justice samuel lance-ito (voodoo chili), Thursday, 12 July 2018 16:34 (one year ago) link

ten months pass...

I kinda don't want to see it because i love the book and it might make me mad. The 70s movie was short/vague enough for me to accept ... I feel like with a longer series, I would be less forgiving.

Also, chiming in that Kelly's Heroes was really great ...

sarahell, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 19:28 (three months ago) link

(prostitute sashaying to Thus Spake Zarathustra)

otm, this is a mortifying disaster that seems to go on forever

that review just describes plot points / themes from the book like "deep!" and the closest it comes to filmcrit is where it says kyle chandler furrows his brow

2001 cue aside i like the nichols movie quite a bit. agree that it cuts so much out it passes naturally into being its own thing while maintaining (a scale model of) the book's structure; the dreamlike staging of the central trauma is good; many of the performances are v canny about when and when not to step into cartoonishness. voight and grodin in partic do perfectly characterized monsters.

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 20:13 (three months ago) link

voight has a line-- "then they'll understand"-- buck henry immodestly claims induced heller in the screening room to mutter "i wish i'd thought of that"

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 20:15 (three months ago) link

also i do "...if you live" (pops lips) anytime someone tells me how old they're going to turn soon, including small children

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 20:29 (three months ago) link

It clearly wants to be a coen bros-style adaptation and it makes me want the coen bros to have directed this

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Wednesday, 15 May 2019 21:23 (three months ago) link

oh man, idk, i think Coens would have made it way too schticky ... 10 years ago I would have said Lars Von Trier should've done it, but I hate him now, so ...

sarahell, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 21:46 (three months ago) link

catch-22 is better but kelly's heroes is the one i'd watch if all three were mysteriously on tv some weekend afternoon

mookieproof, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 23:22 (three months ago) link

they're all good bit id have to give nichols extra credit for managing it at all

deemsthelarker (darraghmac), Thursday, 16 May 2019 08:19 (three months ago) link

Dr. Johnson to thread.

Ned Caligari (Tom D.), Thursday, 16 May 2019 09:48 (three months ago) link

As he hurls insults at them, a series of close-ups introduces some of the young men, one by one, as their names are displayed on screen.

Jfc are ppl really still doing that move in 2019?

Always liked the Nichols movie but found it hard to really love, the performances and a lot of the photography are great but it feels like a series of sketches. Definitely best appreciated as a separate work thats adjacent to/inspired by the book. Havent seen Kellys Heroes in a long time but absolutely loved it as a kid, espec Rickles, and Sutherland's negative waves speech. Definitely gonna find time to revisit that one v soon.

One Eye Open, Thursday, 16 May 2019 18:22 (three months ago) link

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