Rape, blame, responsibility, Amnesty, etcetera.

That's before we get into the whole "how did they get drunk/were they drugged?" scenario.

well, maybe murder is a bit much, but the govt pays for posters that say that if you use a mobile/mp3 player in public you've only got yourself to blame if it gets nicked. the principle is the same.

Yeah. Remind me what the point is of having a mobile if you can't answer it when it rings?

That makes them careless, but NOT responsible though. One could get plastered and fall asleep on the front lawn and no one should ever take that as a cue for anything except to help them up and send them home ffs!

I must say that those posters actually quite irritate me, for very similar reasons. There's being sensible, but that somehow crosses a line.

But, in my head at least, there's a big difference between crime against property and crime against persons.

But how do you effectively *lock* your person? (To prevent rape, murder, being beaten up, etc?)

x-post

We like to think he made a difference that night.

haha but in soft, welfare britain the state is always there to pick up the tab < /mail>

Responsible?!? It might have been naive and stupid to get drunk, but it's still rape and she should not feel responsible. Rape is rape.

Responsible?!? It might have been naive and stupid to get drunk, but it's still rape and she should not feel responsible. Rape is rape.

Not responsible for being raped, but responsible for putting themselves in danger.

I think that Statutory rape - rape in cases where the ability to give consent is diminished (such as through age or incapacity) - it may be more about sex or sexuality. But it just seems to be that it's more about predation. I don't know.

yes, but it is *consensual*. "I allow you to have power and control over me in this limited situation"

Like most people on this thread have said, it's complicated. I have this "friend" who likes kinky sex - rough sex and B&D games and the like. She was raped when she was 13, and her early sexual experiences were non-consensual. Are the two things linked? Chicken and egg when you're talking about sexuality.

The prosecution made the very sensible point that , even though the victim may not have actually said "no" because she was so drunk she could not speak, this did not meet the required test for informed consent.

In other words "she was hammered" is not an excuse.

A footballer was on trial for rape recently, and his defence was that she had consented to sex. He also happily admitted that she was paralytic, couldn't stand up and had been throwing up in the taxi home from the nightclub. Yet he still thought she was in a position to weigh up whether she wanted to have sex with him.

an interesting moral dilemma: perhaps the police have traumatised someone who otherwise would have lived in happy ignorance?

A footballer was on trial for rape recently, and his defence was that she had consented to sex. He also happily admitted that she was paralytic, couldn't stand up and had been throwing up in the taxi home from the nightclub. Yet he still thought she was in a position to weigh up whether she wanted to have sex with him.

clearly have a degree of ambiguity for lawyers, prosecutors, etc. the issue here is not whether the woman 'asked to be raped', but of establishing what actually happened, what there was by way of explicit consent. in relationships you don't always have 'explicit consent' -- and there is such a thing as rape within relationships.

Which means that ultimate responsibilty lies with the man doing the raping.

I'm also somehow able to not steal a bike if it's left unlocked outside a shop, and not nick someone's wallet if I see it poking out of their pocket on the Tube. People do silly things, but the blame if a crime is committed lies with the criminal.

S'not rocket science.

not analogous, though. iraqis killing US soldiers are not criminals, they aren't breaking any generally agreed laws. whereas the US troops using chem weapons and torturing iraqis are.

(OK, perhaps technically the US are not "at war" with Iraq any more, but it's still an illegal occupation.)

self-defence class!

that's so awesome, i'm really glad it worked out well - especially that you didn't have to find an alternative and can still do the class you chose with this prof, who sounds pretty decent.

Well done! Glad it worked out swiftly.

I like getting things out of the way!

Excellent indeed. :-)

hurrah! and hurrah for even-more-kickass abbott!

Here's to future thread: Learn Karate With Teh Abbott.

what a relief that he was helpful about it. and enjoy self defense!

wd totally learn Karate with teh abbott btw

I'm really glad this has worked out for you. I was hoping that's how it would go.

it's really heartening to see evidence of people being helpful and awesome, especially in a situation like this.

Is the Brock Turner Stanford rape case already being discussed somewhere on ILX? Sort of surprised I haven't found any.

I think the poor guy's gone through enough already.

i had a long talk with my gf about the letter and the sentencing last night. very emotional.
everyone should give the letter a read btw; it's brilliantly written and likely to be taught in future.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/heres-the-powerful-letter-the-stanford-victim-read-to-her-ra

Maybe it's the kind of thing ILX would be in such complete agreement about that a thread would just become a pointless echo chamber. Nonetheless, yeah the letter is very powerful and I sort of hope the collective outrage I'm seeing represents some kind of zeitgeist shift

On a friend's facebook thread discussion of this, two of the friend's female friends said that similar things had happened to them in college (one was raped unconscious by a "nice white college guy," the other was raped conscious by a "nice white college guy.") As much as I dislike the "As the father of daughters" preface (we're all related to a woman, and that's not the only reason you should care), this shit really scares and upsets me as the father of two daughters.

man the rapists dad said some reallllly stupid stuff in his statement.

I sort of hope the collective outrage I'm seeing represents some kind of zeitgeist shift

i suspect it does? ashleigh banfield spending half an hour reading the whole thing live on cnn seems p remarkable to me.

I know article comments are of limited scientific value, but I'm struck by how few comments I've seen even remotely apologizing for or defending the judge, the rapist, the dad, etc.

On a friend's facebook thread discussion of this, two of the friend's female friends said that similar things had happened to them in college (one was raped unconscious by a "nice white college guy," the other was raped conscious by a "nice white college guy.") As much as I dislike the "As the father of daughters" preface (we're all related to a woman, and that's not the only reason you should care), this shit really scares and upsets me as the father of two daughters.

― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Wednesday, June 8, 2016 1:11 PM (51 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I really can't stand the backlash to "as the father of two daughters" or "somebody's mother/sister/daughter". How could anyone think that those are not legitimate reasons why people would care? It's so infuriatingly stupid.

This has been sort of amazing in terms of how openly people are discussing this on facebook. I've never seen people talk as openly about rape, even after Steubenville. I really hope its turning a corner in the conversation and we'll see more just sentences.

I've only seen one person on my fb feed try to defend this guy by downplaying his crimes. This same person had spoken up passionately about the UVA case during its time, being adamant that "we all have known some woman who faked a rape claim to get attention..." I know I haven't, but I suspect he has and this has distorted his ability to process it. These are obviously very different cases.

ok while we're talking about infuriating, i really resent that the "fathers of daughters" didn't care enough to be more outraged about this when it was happening to their friends
which (sorry) it was

i don't even want to talk about this honestly but try just sparing women your own age the humiliation of remembering how few of their male peers declared their outrage when they experienced sexual assault

TBH I never in college had a female friend reveal to me that she had been assaulted, or otherwise learned of a female friend or acquaintance being assaulted.

Meaning I'm sure it happened but they did not tell me about it.

But anyway that was kind of my point, it shouldn't take being the father of daughters to be outraged. That's why I don't really like the tic of starting with that qualifier. Although it certainly adds a new dimension of worry and fear to things.

i understand that it adds a new dimension and appreciate that; it just feels like a slap in the face from men my own age.

in my personal opinion, a better way to discuss it is in terms of a very clear cut example of rape culture, where the dad defends his son's unconscionable behavior by railing on alcohol consumption and promiscuity instead of the violent act that his son committed. the judge gave a light sentence because he is part of rape culture too.

college, after college, high school -- it happened

Oh definitely. H and I were talking about how this case is such a clear demonstration of "rape culture" being a real thing.

I think it's the best framework to use when discussing this because it clearly demonstrates the structures that support rape culture.

same person had spoken up passionately about the UVA case during its time, being adamant that "we all have known some woman who faked a rape claim to get attention..."

Statistically, we all likely know more than one person who has been raped, and it's very unlikely most of us know anyone who faked a rape claim.

From a facebook post of a (female, fwiw) friend of a friend:

when I was a dorm security guard at the front desk of a large dorm at our alma mater, I was told to not "bother" signing in the female guests of the athlete residents...so that there wouldn't be a written record of them having been there

seems there are always new ways to realize it really is that bad

people who "know" people who "faked" a rape claim are often very loud about their garbage opinions on rape and tend to extrapolate their own "experience" out as an indicator of something more widespread or even conspiratorial, like my great grandmother's opinions on people of a certain race bc she was mugged by someone in the 1930s.

I sort of hope the collective outrage I'm seeing represents some kind of zeitgeist shift

I'd like to think so, but on more than one comment thread on this, I have honestly seen men make comments along the lines of "it wasnt rape, he only fingerbanged her". And they werent trolling, they seemed to genuinely think that made a difference.

http://jezebel.com/prospective-jurors-refuse-to-serve-under-aaron-persky-1781618871

I didn't know you're allowed to do that as a juror, bow out because you don't like the judge. Or does the judge simply have discretion to allow that?

I think the judge probably has discretion to allow that, but I don't know the state rules. Usually there's a portion of voir dire where they ask you if there's any reason you think you wouldn't be able to serve objectively, and if you said "I have a problem with the judge" the lawyers doing the selecting would almost certainly dismiss you anyway.

I didn't know you're allowed to do that

lol this was my first thought too

When I've gone in for jury duty the first thing the judge asks everyone is whether they have some kind of bias in regards to the justice system--either if you're related to DA or you're predisposed to not trust a cop. I'm sure telling the judge that you don't respect him personally will probably get you dropped like that.

I've always been hesitant to just up and say "I have a deeply rooted distrust of all cops" in a courtroom even though it's m/l true

https://frinkiac.com/meme/S04E06/714096.jpg?b64lines=IFRIRSBUUklDSyBJUyBUTyBTQVkKIFlPVSdSRSBQUkVKVURJQ0VEIEFHQUlOU1QKIEFMTCBSQUNFUy4=

Wow that Jez article indicates that the judge has form in this area, which makes it even more disgusting.

got into really aggravating fb arguments with friends over sentencing leniency and how this is really not the case to hang your hat on when it comes to the whole harsh-prison-sentences-are-bad thing.

there's this inherent grossness in how sex as a depersonalized act is both incentivized and demonized depending on context and who is involved

I have been disconnecting from so many media sources this week, made easier because I've been on vacation, but it's been gnawing away at the back of my mind.

sex isn't inherently good or bad. sex requires mutual consent and interest. the phrase "getting some action" or some variation thereof, which the rapist's father in this current case in the media used, is an indicator that there's some inherent value in one individual pursuing a sex act regardless of whether the other party can give consent, because it's somehow still an inherent good to that mindset even if you're perpetrating the act on someone who can't give consent, or has expressly denied consent.

there's something at the root to many of these cases that fall between what people see as pure acts of violence (which rape, at its root, is) and the supposed murkiness of drunken actions or mixed signals or whatever is used to brush a lack of communication under the rug

honestly, these things make me question my own past actions and those of people I know, as far as whether I had sex when I didn't necessarily want to because it's "what you do" when drunk and hooking up or w/e. and whether I misread cues or was the stereotypical man pushing and testing boundaries in some situations instead of backing off when it was clear I should have

I don't think we can continue to be lenient. but there needs to be some serious reflection in society when a number of people think that an act between two people where one person is praised and the other told they should be ashamed is normalized. we're still at the point where "got some action" and "shouldn't have let him" are the viewpoints of perpetrators and some of their authority figures are reinforcing that view

On the same day, on the same site:

http://wonkette.com/605534/teen-tennis-player-who-sexually-assaulted-autistic-girl-will-not-have-future-ruined-by-prison
It’s so weird how this keeps happening, right? You know, like it just happened with Brock Turner, and his beautiful future that no one wanted to dare ruin! Jeez, it is almost like if you are a white teen athlete, and you sexually assault someone, people are really concerned about how that might affect your future!
Read more at http://wonkette.com/605534/teen-tennis-player-who-sexually-assaulted-autistic-girl-will-not-have-future-ruined-by-prison#VWG0vX911mfLCGtW.99

http://wonkette.com/605513/lets-talk-about-juanita-broaddrick

can absolutely see Bill Clinton doing this (then, not now) and not even thinking of it as rape, but thinking of it as dominant, alpha sex. I can see a LOT of men doing that during that time period, before we started telling them in the ’80s, “hey, that is rape, do not do that.” I can see YOUR NICE GRANDPA doing that, back then.
***
Rape is about power, not sex.” For those for whom it’s about power, those are the serial rapist guys, and they hate women and want to punish us. But I don’t think that’s in every case. I think good men can rape, and be sorry, and not do it again. This is very bad feminism.
***
To sum up, I think Bill Clinton could very well have raped Juanita Broaddrick; that it doesn’t make him an evil man, or irredeemable (I’m Catholic; we’re all forgiven, if we’re sorry, and Broaddrick says Bill Clinton personally called her up to apologize). It doesn’t even necessarily make him a bad feminist — you know, later, once he stops doing that.

Thought this revive was going to be about Kurt Metzger.

http://www.dailydot.com/irl/kurt-metzger-sexual-assault-amy-schumer-twitter-block/

xpost that last half of the last sentence is worthy of the site being taken down.

Yeah I p much felt like wonkette should be deleted after I read that, especially coming from its publisher.

Also, as if it weren't enough "once he stops doing that," oh you mean other than the time he abused the oval office to have an affair with a young intern.

my alma mater, byu, finally getting into some hot water over this. way overdue. that place is a patriarchal cesspool.

and institutionally vulnerable because it's so opaque re: its retrograde policies about student bodies. i can't lie i'll be more gratified the more they get punished for it, but also if it leads to change in de-fanging the honor code it would have a real effect on hundreds of students who get caught in that horrible whirlpool every year.

This has to be fake, right?

https://twitter.com/realbrockturner

Brock Turner ‏@realbrockturner June 29
Loving the new #HeterosexualPrideDay hashtag! #Proud #Swimmer #Hetero

I'm pretty sure this is a troll account