Where to Begin: Iain Banks

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Iain (M) Banks seems like an author I'd enjoy.

Where should I start?

Matt Sab (Matt Sab), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 14:57 (sixteen years ago) link

I've only read the Wasp Factory and I hated it. I'm sure he must have written something better.

kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 15:18 (sixteen years ago) link

I'd like to know this too. I started reading the Crow Road but I'm awful at continuing with books. However, I'm intrigued as it started a bit like a Belle and Sebastian song in prose. I love the modern Scottish eccentrics like Alasdair Gray and Ivor Cutler, so something along these lines plz!

dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 15:19 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.iainbanks.net/fiction.htm

start at the beginning for the b&w books (non-M). give up before you get to Whit. (Wasp Factory, The Bridge, The Crow Road are all essential, the others are good, not read the last two.)

(um, turns out the non-SF books no longer have matching B&W covers. never mind)

didn't enjoy Feersum Endjinn of his SF books, but only FE. i lean towards the culture novels.

koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 15:23 (sixteen years ago) link

> However, I'm intrigued as it started a bit like a Belle and Sebastian song in prose.

"It was the summer that grandmother exploded"...

koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 15:24 (sixteen years ago) link

Complicity was really good

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 15:25 (sixteen years ago) link

wasp factory okay. haven't read crow road. whit i have been trying to read for 3 years, but it's just so boring.

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 15:26 (sixteen years ago) link

That'll be Looper, won't it?

With M is the same bloke, right?

I have got, but not read, Dead Air.

Peter Stringbender (PJ Miller), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 15:26 (sixteen years ago) link

I've only read two of his books and they were both SF (ie, M.). Both of them were fucking excellent.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 15:27 (sixteen years ago) link

Search:

Espedair Street
The Crow Road
The Wasp Factory
The Bridge

Destroy:

Dead Air
Complicity
Canal Dreams

mzui (mzui), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 15:35 (sixteen years ago) link

Espedair Street is an easy read.

The Bridge, is something I've lived... (let alone the fact that one of the characters in it is called "Steven Grout"!)

Complicity is fine, mr xposter... Canal Dreams is a book.

mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 15:37 (sixteen years ago) link

The Wasp Factory is good. Dead Air is bad.

dmun drive-in (dmun), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:08 (sixteen years ago) link

Complicity, Song of Stone, Walking on Glass and The Wasp Factory are all excellent, honestly.

David Merryweather Goes To Far (scarlet), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Destroy: Raw Spirit. What a shambles.

David Merryweather Goes To Far (scarlet), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:20 (sixteen years ago) link

I loved The Bridge. I liked The Wasp Factory (But it was so long ago, I wonder if I would like it as much now), I didn't like Complicity that much. But really, The Bridge is cool! Read that.

scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:22 (sixteen years ago) link

the ending of the Wasp Factory is so stupid and the whole thing after a point seems really clunky and amateurish though i liked the beginning. Are his later books a bit more, i don't know, sophisticated and handling their own plots?

kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:41 (sixteen years ago) link

His science fictions ones (Iain M Banks books) are generally quite rubbish

jellybean (jellybean), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 16:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Except Player Of Games and Excession were both outstanding! (Granted I don't really want to read Excession again but POG is one of my favoritest books ever.)

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 17:19 (sixteen years ago) link

I also loved Player Of Games, and Excession was pretty good too.

My favourite non-M books are Crow Road, Espedair Street and Whit, which seems to be a non-typical selection given what other people have said in this thread. The Bridge is fairly good, too. I couldn't get into Song Of Stone. The Business sounded like a promising idea, but turned out to be a bit rubbish in the end.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 17:25 (sixteen years ago) link

dan perry otm!! i totally love his sci-fi.

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 17:58 (sixteen years ago) link

'Song Of Stone' was, for me, a failed attempt at a new writing style.

'Dead Air' may as well have been written by Tony Parsons.

'The Business' is a nothing of a book, leaves you wondering why you bothered.

'Complicity', 'The Wasp Factory', 'Espedair Street' and (in particular) 'The Bridge' are all essential reads.

Of the Sci-Fi stuff I'd recommend, well, all of it that I've read. 'Feersum Endjinn' is a bit of an acquired taste I suppose. 'Consider Phlebas' and 'Player of Games' are both excellent and most of the others aren't far behind.

Onimo (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:31 (sixteen years ago) link

reading descriptions of the Bridge makes it sound like kind of a less insane version of Welsh's Malibou Stork Nightmare; is it similar? (on the same note, I think what I found so disappointing about the Wasp Factory was that it was similar to Patrick McGrath's Spider and McCabe's Butcher Boy and it just lacked in comparison to both [yes I know it was written before them])

kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:44 (sixteen years ago) link

obv. that's Maribou Stork, not Malibou

kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:45 (sixteen years ago) link

It is similar in concept to Maribou Stork Nightmares (bloke in coma makes up new and exciting adventurous world for himself) but markedly different in style. I'm a big fan of both books. The Bridge leans more towards sci-fi in terms of the 'made up world' aspects, whereas Welsh's fantasy world is based on a world the narrator actually lived in.

Onimo (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Walking On Glass is my favourite. It's one of the more imaginative ones with puzzles and strange connections, some of which don't really seem to tie up, but are just there, kinda like a sub-Alisdair Gray book actually.

everything, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:54 (sixteen years ago) link

Agree re the M titles, I love IMB sci-fi. I can usually spot a "surprise" ending but his endings are deeply shocking/disturbing while also, in hindsight, fitting the evidence extremely well without giving themselves away. I think it's magic!

Laurel, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:55 (sixteen years ago) link

dog latin: a leading Scottish eccentric is Bill Drummond of course. Have you read "45"?

everything, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 18:56 (sixteen years ago) link

Bearing in mind that every Banks book ever is extremely readable:

M:
Start with 'Player of Games', then 'Consider Phlebas', then 'Look to Windward'. 'Feersum Enjinn' is absolutely extrodinary, but takes patience. Ah, fuck it, they're all good.

Non M:
Walking on Glass, The Bridge, Song of Stone.
The Wasp Factory, Complicity and The Crow Road are all overrated.

chap who would dare to thwart the revolution (chap), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 22:05 (sixteen years ago) link

The TV adaptation of The Crow Road ain't bad, but the film version of Complicity with Jonny lee Millar is abysmal. By the by.

I'd love to get into his SF stuff. Consider Phelbas has sat, half-completed, in my bookcase since 1991. I think it might finally be time to have another crack at it.

Yeah, The Bridge is very good. I didn't mention that before.

David Merryweather Goes To Far (scarlet), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 22:15 (sixteen years ago) link

The Bridge is absolutely mind-bogglingly fucking superb. Consider Phlebas is good fun; The Player of Games is immensely clever; Use of Weapons is perhaps a bit clever for its good, but still enjoyable.

I'm in the minority who liked Dead Air, but anyone around that time who bagged the shit out of Bush automatically got my vote.

Hotman Paris Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 22:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Someone tell me about "Dead Air" please? I've read most of his non-M books, missed that one!

mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 21 July 2005 07:17 (sixteen years ago) link

It's his September 11th book.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 07:22 (sixteen years ago) link

I got it from a charity shop, Mark. Looks like I won't be reading it, so if you want it, you can have it.

Peter Stringbender (PJ Miller), Thursday, 21 July 2005 07:27 (sixteen years ago) link

It looks like I won't be looking for it.

mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 21 July 2005 07:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Complicity is great.

Espedair Street, The Crow Road, Walking On Glass (if this is the one with the three different stories that kind of connect in a semi-sci-fi way at the end) are pretty good.

The Wasp Factory is overrated, but has a good twist at the end.

Whit was a load of shite.

I haven't read any of the sci-fi ones. I started to read another one about a woman who belonged to a secret one world government (or something) but it was utterly crap - just loads of descriptions of fast cars, and helicopters and stuff. Sometimes he comes across as an ugly, geeky, middle-aged man, with a car obsession, who keeps trying to be down with the kids and getting it painfully wrong.

Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Thursday, 21 July 2005 08:24 (sixteen years ago) link

"It was the summer that grandmother exploded"...

I hate that opening line. It's so "Woo! Ha ha crazy first line you've got to read on!"

I don't think Iain Banks is very good.

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 08:31 (sixteen years ago) link

OK, Mark. It looks like a wise decision. If I just take it back to the chairty shop, it will eventually have raised £1.60.

"Then Papa deflated and we had to patch him up using a bicycle inner tube repair kit. As if that wasn't enough, Uncle Rampak melted and Aunt Widdle drowned in the resulting puddle."

I like your latest photos, Alba. I have no other way of communicating this fact at the moment, being emailless.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 08:38 (sixteen years ago) link

Sometimes he comes across as an ugly, geeky, middle-aged man, with a car obsession, who keeps trying to be down with the kids and getting it painfully wrong.

This is very true, but he gets away with it because he's funny and usually original.

Forgot to mention: Culture Ship Names! 'Fate Amenable To Change', 'Attitude Adjuster', 'Size Isn't Everything', 'Prosthetic Conscience', 'I Blame Your Mother', 'Unfortunate Conflict Of Evidence', etc.

Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 08:38 (sixteen years ago) link

That opening to "The Wasp Factory" is supposed to be one of the all time classic openings, isn't it?

mark grout (mark grout), Thursday, 21 July 2005 08:42 (sixteen years ago) link

I enjoyed Complicity well enough, but couldn't get to the end of either The Bridge or The Crow Road, both of which I found flabbily written and dull. Shame because any time I've seen Banks interviewed he's come across as a writer I would have liked to like. But I don't.

I've never tried his scifi stuff which may be better.

frankiemachine, Thursday, 21 July 2005 08:45 (sixteen years ago) link

Isn't that the opening to The Crow Road?
xp

Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 08:46 (sixteen years ago) link

I started to read another one about a woman who belonged to a secret one world government (or something) but it was utterly crap - just loads of descriptions of fast cars, and helicopters and stuff. Sometimes he comes across as an ugly, geeky, middle-aged man, with a car obsession, who keeps trying to be down with the kids and getting it painfully wrong.

Yup. The Business

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 08:49 (sixteen years ago) link

If you take everything scott seward and Dan Perry said in this thread, you won't go far wrong (with another full shoutout for Consider Phlebas and a hedged one for Walking on Glass).

David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 July 2005 19:11 (sixteen years ago) link

one year passes...
Did anyone see him on Mark Lawson last night? He said some interesting stuff, but doesn't half have a lot of irritating mannerisms.

chap who would dare to welcome our new stingray masters (chap), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 13:05 (fourteen years ago) link

I was wondering why I didn't post on this and then I remembered I was in Europe when this thread started. Anyway, Consider Phlebas for a starting point.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 13:08 (fourteen years ago) link

I'd go with Player of Games myself.

chap who would dare to welcome our new stingray masters (chap), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 13:14 (fourteen years ago) link

OK, time for a catch-up of his books, nonSF if possible, from "Dead Air" on, ta.

mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 13:16 (fourteen years ago) link

I think he's only publishes The Algebraist (sci-fi) since Dead Air, which is typically full of great crazy ideas, but a little leaden in pace.

chap who would dare to welcome our new stingray masters (chap), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 13:19 (fourteen years ago) link

I got "Complicity" the movie in a VHS sale, never watched it.

Is it really as bad as stated upthread?

mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 13:28 (fourteen years ago) link

I saw the first half of Mark Lawson, but wanted to go to bed more than I wanted to watch IMB. I did find out what the M stands for, though, must remember that; and I liked the footage of him in his home village, because I used to live about a mile away from there myself.

I'm surprised I didn't write more on this thread first time round. Whit was the first one I read, and I liked it, even though it feels like an easy read without that much content. I loved The Bridge and Espedair Street, but couldn't get into Song Of Stone (despite it being the one where the BDSM leanings I'm sure he has are most visible). The Business is rubbish, but enjoyable nevertheless - when I read the synopsis I thought that a very good book could have been made from it, but The Business isn't it.

As for the sci-fi, the first one I read was Player Of Games, and - as someone who isn't a big sci-fi reader - I thought it was very good indeed. To be honest I can't remember which of the sci-fi books I have and haven't read - Feersum Endjinn, definitely, and the one with the giant flying whale creatures (Use Of Weapons?). Apart from Player Of Games, their names seem to blend into one.

it started a bit like a Belle and Sebastian song in prose

Pointless trivia moment: when Radio 4 adapted Espedair Street, back around 1997-8, the vocalist they used for Frozen Gold's songs was Monica Queen, B&S's guest vocalist on Lazy Line Painter Jane.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 15 November 2006 13:29 (fourteen years ago) link

RIP

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Sunday, 9 June 2013 15:26 (eight years ago) link

Aw goddammit. RIP

Øystein, Sunday, 9 June 2013 15:29 (eight years ago) link

Shit, I was holding out hope for some kind of miraculous pull-through. RIP.

I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Sunday, 9 June 2013 15:39 (eight years ago) link

So much quicker than expected.

He seemed like a man who made the very best of his life. RIP.

no man is an islam (onimo), Sunday, 9 June 2013 15:46 (eight years ago) link

:(

we're up all night to get (s1ocki), Sunday, 9 June 2013 16:12 (eight years ago) link

:(

( X '____' )/ (zappi), Sunday, 9 June 2013 16:16 (eight years ago) link

rip ian.

i loved your stories.

fuck cancer.

mark e, Sunday, 9 June 2013 16:18 (eight years ago) link

RIP, fuckin hell.

2 huxtables and a sousaphone (Jon Lewis), Sunday, 9 June 2013 16:21 (eight years ago) link

RIP

the so-called socialista (dowd), Sunday, 9 June 2013 16:36 (eight years ago) link

Such a shame.

not_goodwin, Sunday, 9 June 2013 17:03 (eight years ago) link

dug out my copy of The Bridge and as well as the usual receipt (Tewkesbury Bookshop 13-09-89 £4.99) it contained a postcard of the Forth Bridge and the train tickets my one trip to scotland. haven't read it since 1997, which i must remedy. the SF books get re-read at the rate of about one or two a year, every year.

koogs, Sunday, 9 June 2013 18:23 (eight years ago) link

Aw man, he had no time left at all. RIP. And fuck cancer.

that mustardless plate (Bill A), Sunday, 9 June 2013 18:41 (eight years ago) link

How sad, and fuck cancer in the teeth.

on the sidelines dishing out sass (suzy), Sunday, 9 June 2013 18:44 (eight years ago) link

this looks good - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02xf70k

Iain Banks is one of Scotland's most popular and critically acclaimed novelists. In April 2013, he revealed he has terminal cancer, and is unlikely to live beyond a year. In this exclusive television interview, he talks in depth to Kirsty Wark about his career, life and facing up to death.

(Wednesday 21:00 for an hour)

bbc scotland only... (although iplayer too i guess)

koogs, Sunday, 9 June 2013 19:19 (eight years ago) link

RIP :(

susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Sunday, 9 June 2013 19:50 (eight years ago) link

RIP

go cray cray on my lobster soufflé (snoball), Sunday, 9 June 2013 19:52 (eight years ago) link

fuck

the Quim of Bendigo (Autumn Almanac), Sunday, 9 June 2013 22:50 (eight years ago) link

probably not the place for this, but i am over seeing tyrannical pieces of shit live well into their 80s/90s and by-all-accounts good people lose their lives so very early

the Quim of Bendigo (Autumn Almanac), Sunday, 9 June 2013 22:54 (eight years ago) link

Only ever read 'The Crow Road', but what a book it is. Can still recall how I visualised passages of it now, a few years later. I have another of his books waiting to be read ('Aspedaire St'? I'm not by the bookcase just now), struggle to find a reason why I haven't already read it and more other than laziness. I did worry after 'The Crow Road' that I wouldn't like any of his other books as much.

Anyway, it's sad to hear of his passing.

michaellambert, Sunday, 9 June 2013 23:20 (eight years ago) link

Read a lot of his stuff during standard grades/highers/csys and loved them, especially The Crow Road and Complicity. He seemed like a really nice, down to earth fella too. RIP.

sktsh, Sunday, 9 June 2013 23:30 (eight years ago) link

Was wandering up by the actual real Espedair Street on Friday afternoon and wondered how he was getting on :-(

ailsa, Monday, 10 June 2013 00:23 (eight years ago) link

fuck cancer

one of the greatest sf authors of all time

sean gramophone, Monday, 10 June 2013 00:57 (eight years ago) link

As somebody said yesterday, all of his books are different ..

Easily my favorite author, and I still have some of his to catch up with.

My new favorite is Transition, previously it was, ooh, probably each time I read a new one..

Mark G, Monday, 10 June 2013 06:48 (eight years ago) link

Fuck. RIP banks, RIP the culture.

nagl dude dude dude (ledge), Monday, 10 June 2013 10:32 (eight years ago) link

RIP. Loved his stuff as a teen.

emil.y, Monday, 10 June 2013 11:44 (eight years ago) link

I hope some other talented SF writers get permission from his estate to write more Culture books, it's a concept that would lend itself very well to a shared universe. Maybe Ken McLeod could give it a bash.

I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Monday, 10 June 2013 12:05 (eight years ago) link

One of the constant comforts during my entire adult life has been the knowledge that there was always a new Iain/Iain M. Banks novel underway.
RIP. And fuck cancer.

Vast Halo, Monday, 10 June 2013 16:48 (eight years ago) link

that scottish bbc2 thing isn't showing up on iplayer. surely it has appeal this side of hadrian's wall.

koogs, Thursday, 13 June 2013 10:03 (eight years ago) link

wasn't there this morning. honest.

ordered the last two M books the other day and they've already arrived. both weighty hardbacks, £18 for the pair.

koogs, Thursday, 13 June 2013 11:06 (eight years ago) link

Watched this today, sad to say that the sections from The Quarry sound tiresome and ranty, imo. The ascension of this style is when I got off the bus (Dead Air iirc)

MaresNest, Thursday, 13 June 2013 12:24 (eight years ago) link

I read Stonemouth over a weekend last month, and that was breezy fun where you just basically hang out with this character as he reconnects with old friends and gets into scrapes. It's lightweight but it's an enjoyable read.
I need to read more M. novels.

hewing to the status quo with great zealotry (DavidM), Thursday, 13 June 2013 12:48 (eight years ago) link

M>>>>non-M imo.

I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Thursday, 13 June 2013 12:50 (eight years ago) link

Have non-M. novels traditionally outsold M. novels?

hewing to the status quo with great zealotry (DavidM), Thursday, 13 June 2013 13:27 (eight years ago) link

yes, he quoted 5 to 1 ratio in a recent post (which it's now, of course, impossible to find)

koogs, Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:00 (eight years ago) link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transition_(novel)

On the cusp of "M", some countries had it, some did not.

My favourite one of recent vint.

Mark G, Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:03 (eight years ago) link

not impossible

http://friends.banksophilia.com/28-2/

20 May 2013
...
"I think I’ll only comment on any of the posts if there’s something factually wrong mentioned in them, and so far the only point I can remember is one where an ex-neighbour of ours recalled (in an otherwise entirely kind and welcome comment) me telling him, years ago, that my SF novels effectively subsidised the mainstream works. I think he’s just misremembered, as this has never been the case. Until the last few years or so, when the SF novels started to achieve something approaching parity in sales, the mainstream always out-sold the SF – on average, if my memory isn’t letting me down, by a ratio of about three or four to one. I think a lot of people have assumed that the SF was the trashy but high-selling stuff I had to churn out in order to keep a roof over my head while I wrote the important, serious, non-genre literary novels. Never been the case"
...

koogs, Thursday, 13 June 2013 14:03 (eight years ago) link

A last interview.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 17 June 2013 04:44 (eight years ago) link

there's a review show special which appears to be culled from the bbc2 scotland interview but which is only half an hour long.

watched said bbc2 scotland thing and the heart-breaking thing is that he looks fine, a bit whiter than i remember him, beard and hair-wise, but otherwise fine. he also plays some of his music. he makes it for his own amusement and if anyone else likes it then it's a bonus (which, in this case, is fortunate)

koogs, Monday, 17 June 2013 08:19 (eight years ago) link

two weeks pass...

http://minorplanetcenter.net/blog/sci-fi-author-iain-m-banks-gets-asteroid-named-after-him/

close, but no cigar. should've had the m in the name imo.

koogs, Saturday, 6 July 2013 09:09 (eight years ago) link

also

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0074t1q

Crow Road repeats on BBC4 start wednesday.

koogs, Saturday, 6 July 2013 15:09 (eight years ago) link

four years pass...

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=176060&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2333693

!!!

DJI, Wednesday, 21 February 2018 20:33 (three years ago) link

Dennis Kelly could be a good fit for this. Fingers crossed.

groovypanda, Wednesday, 21 February 2018 21:43 (three years ago) link

three years pass...

much Banks talk lately on the yearly polls. watch this bump die a death...

Feersum Endjinn, i have re-read ever, but i remember being impressed at the level of detail he squeezed into the 'dialect' this race of things lisps, this one thing additionally has a cold and you can hear the difference. fun, but hard work at times.

koogs, Wednesday, 21 July 2021 17:56 (one week ago) link

I guess now I should check my read
/unread list against the recommendations here...

Mark G, Wednesday, 21 July 2021 18:23 (one week ago) link

Are the final two Culture novels worth reading? I found Matter a bit of a slog.

chap, Thursday, 22 July 2021 10:37 (one week ago) link

I gave up after Inversions, but The Algebraist is worth a try for a non-Culture SF novel. Shame he never followed up with more books in the same universe.

a cad, a bounder, a rotter, a really bad sort (Matt #2), Thursday, 22 July 2021 11:07 (one week ago) link

I gave up after Inversions

Just before Look to Windward, which is cracking.

chap, Thursday, 22 July 2021 11:28 (one week ago) link

I have a grudge against Look to Windward for betraying the ideals of the culture. Only read Matter once I think but I recall it as a cracking read, it's high on my list for a reread.

At Easter I had a fall. I don't know whether to laugh or cry (ledge), Thursday, 22 July 2021 11:47 (one week ago) link

Hydrogen sonata is, remarkably for a culture novel, a snooze fest.

At Easter I had a fall. I don't know whether to laugh or cry (ledge), Thursday, 22 July 2021 13:07 (one week ago) link


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