Trotsky

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Got this comp 'the struggle against fascism in germany', from '31-'32 , mostly written during his exile in turkey. It documents his analysis of the situation and his attempts to get the germans to fight against hitler. After he gains power in '33 he writes of the lessons that have to be learnt from the experience, so there's a bunch of articles on that.

Really gripping stuff...but for now we need a thread. Has anyone here read any more comps? I'm also interested on his 'on literature and art', anyone read that?

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 28 March 2005 08:14 (fifteen years ago) link

julio, perhaps mark s can arrange for you a meeting with b3n w6tson?
;)

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Monday, 28 March 2005 11:42 (fifteen years ago) link

not only have i met him (at a gig) but I've also had the pleasure of seeing him dance. I'm not kidding, either, so no winkies.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 28 March 2005 16:50 (fifteen years ago) link

b-b-but did you discuss trotsky with him??

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Monday, 28 March 2005 17:25 (fifteen years ago) link

nah we didn't get to that.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 28 March 2005 17:31 (fifteen years ago) link

WHATEVER HAPPENED TOOO
LEON TROTSKY
HE GOT AN ICEPICK
THAT MADE HIS EARS BURN

TOMBOT, Monday, 28 March 2005 17:52 (fifteen years ago) link

(well i have a trotsky icepick cd also, but that quite evidently ain't the kind of "comp" julio is enquiring about)

t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Monday, 28 March 2005 17:56 (fifteen years ago) link

one month passes...
'history of the russian revolution' reads thrilla like!

anyone read 'the revolution betrayed'?

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 27 May 2005 09:42 (fifteen years ago) link

I've got "Lessons of October"

The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Friday, 27 May 2005 09:44 (fifteen years ago) link

i read 'revolution betrayed'; ordered it and hadta wait like 2 months

i'm reading kolakowski's 'main currents of marxism' at the moment and he gets a pretty bad doing in it

fcuss3n, Friday, 27 May 2005 10:23 (fifteen years ago) link

i very almost picked up 'revolution betrayed' at borders yesterday. didn't want to pay $12. is this a good place to start with trotsky?

caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Friday, 27 May 2005 12:17 (fifteen years ago) link

thanx to orwell it's probably his most famous work

the only other one i read was 'literature and revolution' coz it was on my english course so i can't really comment. Tariq Ali's 'Introducing Trotsky and Marxism' is good as well

fcuss3n, Friday, 27 May 2005 12:34 (fifteen years ago) link

'art and revolution' is a really good place: I recall he walked the line between 'realism' and say, art for what it is ('its own laws') quite well. Mostly a bunch of short pieces, too, and there wz a bit that I wz thinking would be relevant to that kant/hegel thread from a while ago. xp = I wz thinking abt the relationship between trotsky and orwell once I finished the german comp, but have not read any orwell besides '1984', which I didn't really enjoy much.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 27 May 2005 12:37 (fifteen years ago) link

what did orwell make of him? i can't imagine he'd have been mad keen. '1984' isn't very representative, but in the late 30s, especially after his experience in spain, he poured constant scorn on the communist international. but just cos trotsky provided an alternative doesn't mean he went for that.

N_RQ, Friday, 27 May 2005 12:40 (fifteen years ago) link

'animal farm' is more or less based on 'revolution betrayed'; orwell respected him but he wasn't in the same place politically

sophisticated views on aesthetics aside Trotsky was a cunt: 'RB' spends a lot of time lamenting the forced industrialisation, while in the heat of the revolution he had been advocating a 'militarisation of labour' which wasn't exactly a different ballpark

fcuss3n, Friday, 27 May 2005 13:00 (fifteen years ago) link

i saw a movie last fall, well a short film anyway, that featured the real trotsky piloting a ship! he had a nice leather jacket on.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:47 (fifteen years ago) link

sophisticated views on aesthetics aside Trotsky was a cunt

OTM, and sharply so.

N_RQ, Friday, 27 May 2005 14:51 (fifteen years ago) link

orwell said something like, "if trotsky had not been driven into exile, might he not have ended up just as guility as those who drove him"

(that is VERY from memory, so cite w.care!!)

c.hitchens likes to think himself a kind of disciple amalgam of orwell and trotsky i think - and recommends isaac deutscher's three-parter

the unspoken subcurrent in literature and revolution - which is good - is "oh fuck it's all coming to pieces in our hands: we have SO screwed this up"

mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:56 (fifteen years ago) link

"the new course" is where that all sort of comes out in the open and is a teriffic read.

(also, i heart that ppl. are calling collections of articles "comps")

deutscher's books just got reissued, i think.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 27 May 2005 15:54 (fifteen years ago) link

yeah they did

mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 May 2005 16:00 (fifteen years ago) link

i remember that orwell quote (no idea where it appears tho) think he said that snowball agreeing to the pigs getting nicer food was supposed to symbolise trotsky's complicity or something like that

read lit and revolution a month or so- didn't quite get that subtext, may have to re-read it cos that sounds intriguing.

i'd recommend victor serge on him (especially 'the serge-trotsky letters'), he's very good at acknowledging said cuntishness and salvaging the good bits...

Owen Hatherley (owen), Friday, 27 May 2005 16:02 (fifteen years ago) link

must say that cuntishness hasn't come across in anything I've read so far.

the contradictions will be the only thing to be 'sharpened' on this thread!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 27 May 2005 21:01 (fifteen years ago) link

i feel a certain ambivalence about tariq ali, but im not sure if this should be the case. in all honesty, i cant actually remember why i thought i might be reticent about him. whats a representative piece to read?

charltonlido (gareth), Friday, 27 May 2005 21:13 (fifteen years ago) link

i always get him confused with tariq aziz.

caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Friday, 27 May 2005 21:55 (fifteen years ago) link

'must say that cuntishness hasn't come across in anything I've read so far.
the contradictions will be the only thing to be 'sharpened' on this thread!'

heheh. but for cuntishness, 'their morals and ours' is pretty definitive (also his fairly, eh, no-nonsense attitude to the kronstadt rebellion at the same time)

on the whole i'm v ambivalent about trotsky, abt equal admiration and distrust- as for ali, he's ok in my book, tho can be a bit knee-jerk on occasion

Owen Hatherley (owen), Saturday, 28 May 2005 20:19 (fifteen years ago) link

two years pass...

Pity Mark S is no longer around..

how does ILX feel about CLR James?

laxalt, Monday, 7 April 2008 12:21 (twelve years ago) link

total bro

banriquit, Monday, 7 April 2008 12:33 (twelve years ago) link

Always kind of skirted around, but never read. Recommendations?

laxalt, Monday, 7 April 2008 12:35 (twelve years ago) link

twelve years pass...

finally watched a bit of the recent Russian TROTSKY series yesterday for lols and you know it's the most genuinely fascistic thing I've ever seen on TV that isn't the news - like one of those antisemitic cartoons from the Civil War with CGI and sex

— Owen Hatherley (@owenhatherley) September 15, 2020

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 15 September 2020 10:41 (one week ago) link

I just saw this come across my TL, confirmation that we follow the same people

scampo italiano (gyac), Tuesday, 15 September 2020 10:48 (one week ago) link

Yes, although I doubt you follow some tankies like I do 🤣

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 15 September 2020 11:17 (one week ago) link

oh it's my pal Owen, he follows me you know. My stock must be rising in the tankie community!

calzino, Tuesday, 15 September 2020 11:19 (one week ago) link

xp fped for emoji use, sorry I don’t make the rules

scampo italiano (gyac), Tuesday, 15 September 2020 11:29 (one week ago) link

It'll never get to 51 oh wait

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 15 September 2020 11:41 (one week ago) link

on the whole i'm v ambivalent about trotsky, abt equal admiration and distrust- as for ali, he's ok in my book, tho can be a bit knee-jerk on occasion

― Owen Hatherley (owen), Saturday, May 28, 2005 1:19 PM (fifteen years ago)

everyone posting in this thread rn follows Owen ... chronologically

sarahell, Tuesday, 15 September 2020 16:48 (one week ago) link


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