suicide

I don't think it's necessarily morally wrong or anything like that, so I'm not going to address it on those terms. But there are two big things I would say about it.

1) It's a cliche, but it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Mike may be being somewhat facetious, but what he says is true. Even if you feel like you are trapped in an unworkable situation, you have not tried every option. Quit your job, leave your home, there are a thousand things you can change. Even if the worst thing you can possibly imagine happens to you (and trust me, I've been there) it's still less final than being dead. Sure, no matter where you go, you will still be yourself, and the same problems may resurface, and you can't change your life until you've changed yourself, but fuck. Wouldn't it be better to change yourself, even temporarily, rather than end yourself forever?

2) If suicide *is* wrong, for any reason, it is for the mess that it leaves behind, for those who care about you. I've seen parents, children and lovers DESTROYED by their loved ones' intentional deaths. Yes, that's a strange reason to ask someone to stay alive, but it is still a valid one. Even if you think no-one will care. Suicide is ultimately a selfish act. *Especially* if you are committing suicide with some sort of "I'll show them, they'll regret it when they're dead..." attitude, or if you are committing suicide to escape a painful relationship. This may be a controversial stance, but committing or attempting to commit suicide because of, or to spite another human being is as much of an emotional and psychological attack on them as if you had put the razor to their wrists. Don't do it.

I don't know the reasons why you want to die. I don't really want to know them either. Sorry if that sounds harsh or uncaring, but I just don't have a lot of excess emotional empathy left to spare right now. (I've come pretty close to wanting to kill myself too in the past few months.) But whatever is troubling you, there is ALWAYS another way. It takes more courage to stay alive and find it than it does to die, remember that. Failure isn't falling, it's staying down.

I wish you luck. I hope you do find someone helpful to talk to about it. I hope you find the courage that you need to make the changes that enable you to stay alive and carry on, on a different course.

Sorry if these words sound empty. Even if they're not helpful to you at all, I couldn't just say nothing.

For the longest time i didn't even try to think abt it, or what i felt: it plopped into the already voluminous "if i say i want/like it, i shall lose it" room in my brane, and festered there

the next time i decided i wanted something (= [xXx]) and realised that saying so wd certainly drive [xXx] away, even as an occasional friend (which = what happened), i found for weeks i was being struck by gusts of grief over rob, by then 9 yrs dead. Inc. bursting into tears in the street, once.

But what I increasingly realised I felt and feel today is NOT "Oh, if only i'd known, i'm sorry now he's gone how horrible things must have been" but instead "YOU BASTARD! How dare you think so little of me! How dare you run away and leave me with this stuff that can never now be resolved or explored or quietened away"...

He's turned himself over the years into this selfish kid who I no longer really like, in other words. By not being there to be who he really was. I'm just so ANGRY about what a hostile act this was, at ppl he may never even have intended hostility towards (but how will io ever know?)

It's a very hostile and aggressive act, is what I think: and the ppl who get hurt are almost never the ones who you meant to hurt, and NEVER the ones who deserve to get hurt. It's almost the only way of behaving i'm this uncontrollably judgmental (and unfair?) about.

I don't agree entirely with what everyone's said here, although I respect it. I don't quite believe that suicide is finally a uniquely selfish act - no more selfish than the other kinds of solipsism we routinely wrap ourselves in and which too often colour the way we act towards and think about other people, no more selfish than my inability to fully feel the death of someone I loved and who had loved me.

But I know that as an often miserable but living and breathing person I can't properly mentally figure death and I don't want it in my heart or my mind if I can help it. And I know that when my best friend began his string of suicide attempts a year after my nan died I didn't have to question my assumption that if I could override his death wish with my dumb life-force I would, and I don't question it now. I'd lend my life-force to anyone who needed it; I'd argue till I was blue in the face for anyone's right to kill themselves and till equally blue to stop them exercising that right. I'm glad my friend is still alive, and so is he - really, really glad. Not always happy, and often angry, and often bored, and for long periods directionless and distraught, but very, very glad.

In reply to something Kate wrote - sometimes sadists use the threat of suicide as an equivalent to threatening murder, but I don't think this is the case here.

I am so thankful now that I didn't do anything! I would have missed out on so much. My life is completely different now -- I wouldn't say I'm violently happy but I'm pretty satisfied and content, and my circumstances are a lot healthier and happier. My point is that you may be feeling a lot of pain right now, but you never know what's just around the corner. Things could be totally different for you a few months from now. But you'll never find that out unless you stick around and give life a bit more of a chance.

i've had friends die recently, lovers even, smacked down by fatal accidents in their prime. i've had friends kill themselves, acts of the ultimate in confusing desperation, especially through a veneer of the "perfect life" (beautiful, successful, etc.) no excuse, yes. horrible wound on those close to you for all time, yes. but i suppose i've seen both sides (as close as one can really, since i'm not writing this as a ghost.) the pain of my best friends suicide a few years back was softened somewhat by the fact that we had already fallen out of contact owing to a pre-existing rift. but he was a beautiful human being, much like mark's friend above, someone without whom i'd be a very different person indeed. but he did seem to have the "perfect life" so his death was even more baffling; the questions thrown up were not so much "how could you do this?" as "why would you do this?" the friend who was killed had one of the hardest, most soul-grinding lives i've ever encountered in either the annals of real life or fiction; yet, through all the pain and bullshit life thew at her she continually perservered, never once stooping to thoughts of suicide, always amazed at the beauty to be found in life.

i agree with much of what mark and kate and others said above. i also agree with what ellie said. i suppose something to be remembered in all of this is that people who are pushed or push themselves to the brink of suicide are probably not in their "right mind." therefore, it might be a bit of an impossible imposition to assume that they have the mental wherewithall to think of their friends and loved ones in the moment. it is selfishness on a grand scale, yes, but it also often seems to happen when one has been - if not self-less, then certainly not taking care of themselves for quite some time.

if he's reading, it was anthony's list of "real beauty" which made me reconsider last night; not because we necessarily share the same ideals, but that it made me contemplate my own (writing with your fingertips on a foggy car window, the delicate heartbreak in a joseph cornell box, the impious life in a cecil taylor solo.) i didn't do it. so thank you.

i doubt i will ever commit suicide; i really was thinking of it in an abstract. but that lame nitchzesian option remains, and here we are. i've been massively depressed for a good chunk of my life owing to any number of things (parental...issues, molestation/abuse, drug/alcohol issues, image issues, etc.) but i've managed to make it thus far, reveling in what little, small beauties i've experienced along the way.

and so far, that's been enough.

I am by nature an eternally optimistic, merry person, and I admit I could have little to offer to this whole thing that hasn't been said by others. All I could say, though, has already been said in this statement of your own, really. Right now I'm watching my Rocky Horror DVD, and the thought of never being able to see Tim Curry just eat the camera, the audience and most of the cast alive again would just be miserable. But not as miserable as never being able to blast "Soon" again -- very very loudly.

Support and love to you. *hugs*

I found something I could do no matter how boring I find it. I can loose myself and code and sit infront of a computer terminal and hours can slip by. I reach Nerdvana quite often nowdays.

I myself posted a particularly desperate and partly incoherent post in early October when things just didn't seem to be happening and I was - literally - minutes away from actually ending it all. I won't go into specifics but I had already started to instigate the process. My reasons for this are well documented elsewhere on these boards.

Fortunately, as a result of several similarly incoherent 'phone calls and e-mails (not to mention the replies which I received here) I quickly decided not to take it further and instead resolved to see my GP next morning to try to get a psychiatric referral (with a splitting headache!). Dr L was very understanding but reckoned that this was standard post-bereavement behaviour and thought that I just needed to get out of Oxford. So I muddled on and eventually did it. Now I'm more settled and find it a bit easier to deal with the things which have happened this year. It's still very borderline - as ever, I have to be careful not to think about things too much, and there's what would have been Laura's 37th birthday coming up next week, not to mention Xmas - but I have no doubt that had I stayed in Oxford I would have been dead by now. And I'm not being melodramatic - I really do think it would have come to that.

There are no easy answers; I'm just lucky that I have the "safety valve" within myself which I can activate at times of extreme crisis. In terms of yourself and other posters here, all I can really advise is that, dull and unprofitable though it may sound, it does pay to at least have a go at trying professional advice - not from spiritual types, necessarily, but from medical professionals who know what can be done biologically and/or physically to help you live with this state of mind - not asking you to bottle it up or discard it but rather to come to terms with it; even to use it in whatever powers your life.

So I just found out that my best friend overdosed in an attempted suicide. I've known her for about 8 years now, and she's always been a bit unstable but this comes as a complete shock. I just gone done talking to her and she seemed to be herself... but something was off, and I'm sitting here afraid that she's going to try it again..Normally I would go to her house and keep her company, but she moved away about a year ago so there's really not much that I can do. Any advice?

The Suicide Prevention Center has this to say about helping friends:

Helping Your Peers
If you think that any of your friends or classmates may be thinking of killing themselves, there are two important things you can do: Talk to them, and express your concern to a responsible adult.

Having someone to talk to can make a big difference. College students will often share secrets and feelings with their peers that they will not share with older adults. However, you may need to be persistent before they are willing to talk. Ask them if they are thinking about killing themselves. Talking about suicide or suicidal thoughts will not push someone to kill themselves. It is also not true that people who talk about killing themselves will not actually try it. Take any expressed intention of suicide very seriously.

You should be especially concerned if people tell you that they have made a detailed suicide plan or obtained a means of hurting themselves. If they announce that they are thinking of taking an overdose of prescription medication or jumping from a particular bridge, stay with them until they are willing to go with you and talk to a responsible adult-or until a responsible adult can be found who will come to you.

Don't pretend you have all the answers. The most important thing you can do may be to help them find help. Never promise to keep someone's intention to kill him- or herself a secret.

If you have talked with a friend or classmate and think that person is in danger, yet the person refuses to get help, you need to talk to a responsible adult who can intervene. You should also find a responsible adult if your friend or classmate refuses to discuss the issue with you, or if you think that you don't know the person well enough to initiate a personal conversation.

Find someone who is concerned with and understands young people and can help. This might be a member of your friend's family, or it could be a residence assistant, a professor, an administrator, a member of the clergy, or someone who works in campus mental health services or the health clinic. If this adult doesn't take you or your friend's problem seriously or doesn't know what to do, talk to someone else. Most college campuses have a mental health or emergency support network that will respond to your concern.

Don't be afraid of being wrong. It is difficult for even experts to understand who is at serious risk of suicide and who is not. Many of the warning signs for suicide could also indicate problems with drug or alcohol abuse, domestic violence, depression, or another mental illness. Young people with these problems need help-and you can help.

Not sure if your friend is in the age bracket this is directed toward, but it sounds like solid advice regardless of age. I'm very sorry to hear about your friend.

that's it, baby it's over
su-su-suicide summer...

After thinking about it, i have too many cool items i couldn't leave to anyone. i decided to grin and bear it :(

brainwasher, i'm so sorry. how is she doing? are you in touch with her? be in touch, i would say...

x-post - :-( I hope you're ok NG.

Youngest brother, age 16, has been suicidal for months. I know my parents are the worst with this kind of parenting and that his life has to be hell right now, dealing with them on top of that. Things:

1. Naturally I've had the fantasy of moving him down here (family lives 1,100 miles north of here) but it wouldn't work, if for no other reason than he has type 1 diabetes (which fucks w/a mood enough w/out my parents, high school, first breakup, puberty & clinical depression). I couldn't supplement his supplies – no insurance.

2. My parents ace at making their kids feel guilty about needing health care. Mental health stuff isn't covered under their insurance. He got anti-depressants from the family GP and has been taking them but he says they don't make that big a difference. No counseling. When he wanted to check into a local 'behavioral clinic' for teens he was told he couldn't bcz of $$$. My parents aren't poor by any means.

3. My parents just don't take this shit seriously. They write it off, even actual attempts, as 'attention-getting.' I've asked them to take the guns out of the house, and the bullets (my dad shoots handguns for fun), and they're ALWAYS like 'oh yeah, we should, huh.' Even after I told them he said to me, "It's a good thing I didn't pay attention to how to load a gun in hunter safety class, or I'd have shot myself last night." But I can't go hide guns for them!

I'm always there to listen & he calls all the time, but I hate that there's nothing else I can do! What I'm asking is: IS there anything else I can do?

possibly find him a decent counselor and pay for it? tough situation.

They have guns in the house AND he is threatening suicide? Call the police and ask them if there is someone who has expertise in this situation, i.e. dealing with an emotionally unstable person. This is an emergency situation, IMO. If you are at all unsure, double check with a suicide hotline. I know that IRL such people let you down, but you have to at least give it your best shot.

^^^^

Get the guns out of the house. Just take them if you have to.

(family lives 1,100 miles north of here)

National suicide prevention lifeline: 1-800-273-TALK (8255) (I'm assuming you're in the U.S., but maybe you're not). You can call them even if it is for another person. They may be able to offer local help or at least put you in touch with some other resources. Guns in the house increase suicide risks greatly which I'm sure you are probably aware of. Is there any other family/friends local to them who could help get the guns out? I would also suggest trying to locate free or low-cost mental health clinics in your brother's area. If money really is the barrier (it sounds like it's an excuse in this case), removing it could help.

I'm so sorry you (and your brother are in this situation). Good luck getting help.

(and your brother) are in this situation.

You could also try contacting the local Child Protective Services office - although your brother isn't a "child" at 16, he is still of an age that the CPS (or equivalent) would have jurisdiction over.

Keep listening to him and being there when he wants or needs to talk: that's the best thing you can do for him. I know you say you wish there was more, but fuck, dude: that's so much you're doing already right there.

When you say he's suicidal: what's he actually said? From the (minimal) training I've had in these things, I understand it's best to deal with it as directly as possible: "OK, so are you seriously thinking about suicide?" And if he says yes, he is -- which it sounds like he will - then follow up with: "So do you have a plan?" Then: "Can you tell me what that plan is?" This can help in two ways: not only in terms of giving you a better understanding of what he's feeling and what kind of state he's in, but also in terms of your brother articulating and -- hopefully -- rationalising his feelings. The key thing to remember is: talking openly about suicide isn't going to "give him ideas" or "put it in his head" or anything.

But yes, I'd say the next thing is that he should talk to a professional about how he's feeling. I don't really know much about what services there are in the US, but it sounds like the number wmlynch links to is excellent and you're probably best giving them a call yourself, and/or encouraging your brother to do so. Is there anyone else he might be able to talk to -- any other adult figure in the area whom he looks up to and who might be able to help? What about his/the family doctor?

I really don't want to pass judgment on your parents but dismissing this as "attention-seeking" is at best unhelpful and at worse reckless. As a Brit, the idea of having guns in the house is totally beyond my frame of reference, and I don't really have any helpful advice there because to me it's as unimaginable as saying: "Yeh, we've got a hungry tiger that lives in the bedroom cupboard" ... but, y'know, cultural differences and that :)

Hope this is of some help. Ultimately, though, what you're doing is more important than anything else: you're listening to him.

Thx everyone. I think I'll have him call a hotline, or recommend he does – they'd be better able to connect him w/resources in his town than I wld, of course. And then if he tells me he's thinking about it

I think we've both gotten the same scant bit of training, grimly, and I try to be as open w/him about it as possible and never pussyfooting w/language or intent, which is why I think he's willing to talk to me (among other reasons). It's just so hard to try and stay calm and open, let alone come up with any solutions or ideas like you did.

And yes, my parents are being real short-minded assfucks. They're impossible to handle & they make no sense. I hope for everyone else's sake they never have to regret their actions, but I am consistently baffled by how fucking idiotic they are with their kids' mental & physical health.

And then if he tells me he's thinking about it call the ER in his town to come get him.

worried

that im a bad person, that my friends dont love me, that i cant be understood, that im crazy.

Doubtful all four.

1. bad people don't usually worry about being bad people. You're probably obsessing over some mistakes?

2. if things with your friends have been different lately, maybe they are exasperated and don't know what to do about you, I mean, if you've been extremely depressed?

But that doesn't mean they don't love you, those who do.

Or have or did before or whatever.

3. You definitely can be understood.

none of those things change by killing yourself.

4. You maybe need therapeutic help or antidepressants or something else, but crazy? I mean, even if you were crazy, crazy is manageable these days.

Yeah, and what he said.

And you can't give in to the illogic of depression. It's a chemical inertia that you have to fight.

“navigating the ridiculous tightrope of trying to find treatment without getting everyone alarmed”

yes this, this is the worst as I personally have experienced.

my mother in law’s recent suicide has really shaken up the snowglobe on this kind of thing for me. She was a miserable, misanthropic, abusive, manipulative person. She completely blamed my wife in her suicide note for her death. My wife is mourning like crazy but she is pissed having to clean up after her and realizing the extent to which her mom made her life miserable for so so long. It’s a weird mix of emotions. Obviously she was NOT ALL BAD and did raise my wife to be an absolute badass with guts of steel, unmatched wit, compassion and humor. And she was a truly loving dog mom too. Sorry, just thoughts. Processing.

that sounds horrible. its good you are there for your wife! it must be such a whirlwind of emotions for her. and you. do you have someone to talk to about it other than your wife?

"Yeah bad original take xyzzzz and bad response too imo— referring to that dumb-as-rocks exchange on Twitter; also nobody here (certainly not me) is debating that capitalism exacerbates suicidality"

Haven't seen what twitter thread it's referring and no doubt it's dumb.

Ofc in many scenarios taking one's own life is the path taken. It's not for me to debate that but I thought to say that there is something else going on with some of this. That thread was thoughtful in pushing back on where AD could go. It quotes the article and here is the thread for those who cannot access.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1773967442093486575.html?utm_campaign=topunroll

xp yeah a couple of old friends and my cousin and uncle have been really sweet and supportive. and I’m lucky I can just call/text my mom and be a total mess and she can get me slowed down.

oh, good, brim. that's good.

Thanks Scott, it’s been hard to reach out to others cause I’m just used to brooding/compartmentalizing. My wife gratefully has amazing mental health care providers who are such an hugely significant source of support right now too. Plus her friends and colleagues have really showed up for her And her uncle is a real cool dude, we started connecting with him more this year and having him in our lives more has been really special

i just know for myself that i have been through some heavy/scary stuff and not had people who i thought i could turn to and talk about what i was going through and as i got older i realized how friggin' important that is. even if you have to collar someone on the street and let loose. or make that barista really earn that tip when they ask you how your day is going.

or just write about it on secret message borads...

but, yeah, fundamentally, i too am someone who had always bottled things up. i come from a long line of bottlers. it can be so liberating though to talk it out with someone on the outside.

Allergic to the economic argument for migration, but yes it's accurate as to what is happening. We will all be a lot poorer in all sorts of ways as routes for migration are shut.

In some ways the Tories are throwing the economy under the bus for the next government but it's unlikely Labour will do anything #provemewrong

Wrong thread!

i wish i didn't have such therapist fear. i don't know why i do. i have this fear that if i sat one on one with someone that i would just lose it. like really really lose it. i feel the same way about massages. i've always been afraid that if i got a massage that i would die. that the tension in my back and neck and shoulders is the only thing keeping me upright.

Great to read such honest discussion. I hope y’all find the right paths and that they include sticking around here for a good while.

i've always been afraid that if i got a massage that i would die. that the tension in my back and neck and shoulders is the only thing keeping me upright.

I had persistent shoulder pain for about a year to the point that I couldn't scratch my own back. Finally I went to an acupuncturist and it didn't stop the pain instantly or anything, but at one point he put a bunch of needles in between my toes and my whole body felt like it was melting. It was wild.

my mother in law’s recent suicide has really shaken up the snowglobe on this kind of thing for me. She was a miserable, misanthropic, abusive, manipulative person. She completely blamed my wife in her suicide note for her death. My wife is mourning like crazy but she is pissed having to clean up after her and realizing the extent to which her mom made her life miserable for so so long. It’s a weird mix of emotions. Obviously she was NOT ALL BAD and did raise my wife to be an absolute badass with guts of steel, unmatched wit, compassion and humor. And she was a truly loving dog mom too. Sorry, just thoughts. Processing.

― brimstead

oh god that's so complicated. particularly the "not all bad" thing. so many of the important relationships in my life are like that. so much of my better qualities are things i learned from my mom, for instance. i try to talk about my marriage and i say "aside from the emotional and sexual abuse it was a really good marriage" and people think i'm being flip, and i guess i am but it's also literally true. it was a really good marriage, to the extent that someone can be a "good person" i genuinely think she is one. the fact that she did some messed up things to me doesn't change that.

there are just... so many ways to kill oneself, so many ways to _hurt_ oneself, and most of them don't get recognized as "suicide" or "self-harm". people make a bright line where none exists. if i don't take care of my body because i'm passively suicidal and i have a massive myocardial infarction at age 42 and die, that's not considered suicide. conversely, if someone spends their entire life being bullied and abused and the pain gets so overwhelming they take their own life, that _is_ considered suicide. it's one of those _concepts_ that tries to impose a sense of moral order onto an act, a sense of meaning and value. it's well-intentioned a lot of times, but it's so innately reductive. for people with chronic suicidality navigating all of the gatekeeping around mental illness is so complicated.

getting my surgery referral letters for my GRS written was a really difficult process for me... like the letter needed to convey that this surgery was important and it was something that was "medically necessary" because not having it was causing me mental distress, but at the same time i needed to convey that i was a fundamentally well-adjusted person capable of making healthy medical decisions for myself. "Oh don't get me wrong the gender dysphoria is killing me, having the genitals i have causes me agonizing emotional pain, but other than that I'm fine really." i mean ok i guess that's what the insurance company needed to hear. and that is what it's all about, mental health is about ticking off the appropriate boxes.

like being mentally ill is a skill and i've gotten really good at it. and some people think that's a bad thing, that like when you're mentally ill the goal is to stop being mentally ill rather than doing a better job at it, and that is the absolute _opposite_ of my experience. it's honestly, like... pain management.

suicidality for me is really simple, sometimes it hurts really really bad for a long time and it hurts so bad that i want to die, and i have to figure out how to navigate that without dying. there are reasons why i hurt that bad and they aren't easy to address. they're complicated and they take a lot of work, and a lot of time, and when it hurts really really bad, my brain is not, like. cognitively capable of doing that work. so when i hurt really really bad i have to figure out how to, like, get myself to hurt less bad, so i can address the underlying issues that cause me to hurt really really bad sometimes.

which is all difficult enough but then people keep doing things that cause me to hurt really really bad. i'm doing all this work and i'm doing it well and at the same time i'm running as fast as i can to just try and stay in the same place. whatever doesn't kill us _doesn't_ make us stronger, often it makes us weaker. it's so stupid to me that people keep pulling out that nietzsche quote like it's remotely true. sometimes something won't kill me and as a result of that i have to work really hard to become stronger as a result of that, but i didn't get _stronger_ because i survived having a piano fall on me from a great height. come on, that's ridiculous. (that's a hypothetical example btw, i've never had a piano fall on me from a great height.)

anyway the thing about, like, hurting really really bad is that it is really hard to make good decisions when i'm in that state. i've made some extremely bad decisions in my life and most of them were because i was hurting a lot and it negatively impacted my ability to make good decisions. none of those decisions involved killing myself, or even overtly _attempting_ suicide, but if i did do that, for me it would be the same kind of decision. and that sucks, and also one of the things i've learned is that sometimes making a "good decision" is not an option. like i know there was all that controversy about the old game _depression quest_ but i think one of the things it demonstrated really well is that sometimes for various reasons i don't get to do the "right thing". so it's me and it's 1996, do i want to transition and not be able to do any work except sex work and have the world treat me with undisguised disgust for a couple decades, or do i decide to pretend i'm a cis person and go through decades of trauma from untreated, unrelieved gender dysphoria, spend decades suffering from extreme mental illness, dissociation, and depersonalization? ha ha, trick question, the answer is that i don't have a choice because i'm not able to even _recognize_ what the hell it is that's wrong with me. that's how trauma is.

the other thing is that gender dysphoria is, like. a pretty minor example. like, gender dysphoria hurt like hell and it's had a major affect on my life and i just have _so many_ other problems and traumas, so much _other_ messed up stuff going on in my life. i see that in a lot of other queer people, compound trauma. plus, on top of that, the extensive abuse i suffered means that i see abuse as normal, like i'm _conditioned_ to seek out self-harm. and what can someone say to that? "have you tried not hurting yourself?" it is like that, it's just so inexplicable to anybody who hasn't had that experience. i do things and other people see what i do and they're like "why the hell did you do that". not only is it useless to explain, sometimes i can't explain. how does someone answer a question like that? "i was bored". or maybe, if one has done something particularly heinous, "i don't like mondays". the question has an actual answer, but nobody fucking wants to know that answer, to understand what it actually takes to change things for the better. now that people see me as a woman, they want me to be _happy_, they want me to _smile_, but nobody questions whether or not i have a _reason_ to be happy. that's not important. what's important is that i smile and look pretty. and i mean. people who get seen as men have their own expectations that are just as fucked up and toxic. in a lot of ways it's _easier_ for me that i just get to smile and people won't ask me too many difficult questions.

the other weird thing is that in a lot of ways transition has... given me a lot more skills to deal with suicidality. i do this thing that's really taboo and that other people really don't want me to do, and i learn that fuck what other people expect of me, i gotta do what's right for me. and i get to consider that, you know, maybe that decision _is_ suicide. it doesn't come from a position of, like, _I NEED TO DO THIS_, but more like... well, let's actually consider this here. the first thing people say is "don't make a plan", which is basic means reduction. that was _effective_ for me to a certain extent, at a certain point. "well i really want to die but i don't have the means or a way to get the means and anyway i'd probably just mess it up and be a failure at that too". and that, like. that wasn't a healthy attitude for me. that was disempowering. that was me saying "i don't have any control over my own life". i mean it keeps me alive until the suicidality passes, but then i gotta deal with having reinforced that message of my own basic helplessness, there's this pain that comes over me that's severe and overwhelming and i can't do anything about it.

in my last suicidal crisis back in january i got to a point where i realized, wait. i could do this. i could do this. i have the skills, i have the means, i have a plan, i have the opportunity. i could genuinely do this right now and nobody would be able to stop me. like i have a _choice_. but that also means i had to confront, like. oh wait i do want to die but i also genuinely want to live. and i'm not just choosing to _not_ kill myself, i'm like genuinely proactively choosing to live, because i _want_ to live, not because of anyone else's expectations. it doesn't make the pain _worth it_, i don't _need_ to suffer through the pain. it's just like, i can choose how i deal with that pain, and one of those choices is suicide. it was liberating.

that's why, i think that's one of the reasons why when people start antidepressants there's such a risk, because suddenly one's not in that state of learned helplessness, suddenly i was like "oh wait if i want to do something i can do it", but what i wanted to do is kill myself. that gets called "agitated depression" sometimes, which, ok, i guess if that's what they want to call it. anyway the way i dealt with that for a long time was, ok, if i want to do something, the most important thing in the world for me is to not do it. like i couldn't differentiate between wanting to do something that would be really bad and wanting to do something that would be positive and helpful. i was just like "well here's something i want to do, better not do _that_". i'd already been taught extensively by my mom that nothing i ever did would ever be good enough, that i was destined to be a worthless failure... so i applied that pre-existing concept to my desire to kill myself, i really worked to strengthen it. that's a big part of why even though i'm in a lot of ways exceptionally competent i don't ever achieve any of my goals. because that's what i learned to do, as a survival mechanism. if i really felt capable of achieving my goals, i would've died a really long time ago. there are lots of reasons to stay alive. for me, i'm alive because i centered my whole life around experiencing intense pain and not doing anything to alleviate that pain, including actively avoiding anything that might give me a real sense of accomplishment or joy. what was the point in feeling good? i was just going to feel bad again. feeling good was meaningless.

so it really fucked me up when i transitioned, intending for all the world to make myself into a grotesque unloveable monster in defiance of the world's cisheteronormative standards, to put myself through all of the hatred the world had to offer, because what actually happened was that i basically instantly started making my life like a billion degrees better. i wasn't expecting that. that _really_ pissed me off. like, what do you mean, i'm well-adjusted and happy and i love myself? THAT WAS NOT WHAT I WAS GOING FOR. i still really resent being, like, a basically normal middle-aged woman. because really i'm not cut out for that shit.

-

i also really feel you scott when you talk about... like i worried a lot for a long time that if i started letting out my emotions i would just cry and cry and cry and never stop. and that like in fact has happened to me. last year i went on a spiral for like three months where i basically didn't get out of bed. when that's something that could actually happen, i mean, it's really easy to repress. plus my history of abuse plays into it as well... my history is that a lot of times in the past when i've opened myself up and made myself vulnerable it's been weaponized against me by people who, like, didn't have my best interests at heart. i'm not a man but i do see that men in particular do have that experience a lot. vulnerability in men is pretty strongly punished and mocked and shamed. i mean god, _expressing any emotion_, you might as well be a girl, right? unless it's anger. if it's anger, than you're a Toxic Abusive Man. god, it's so fucked up. the pressure is to bury and bury and bury and yeah _that's_ why i'm carrying around all of this fucking bullshit around with me, and then it all comes up whenever anything happens that reminds me of it.

like a good example, i've been really suicidal the last couple of days because i've been sort of "breaking up" with my girlfriend. like. dealing with rejection. because she has been rejecting me for the past six months, not because, like, there's anything wrong with me, but because she has so much going on she's just not capable of being a girlfriend on top of all that other stuff. and that other stuff is genuinely more important for her to do than being my girlfriend is. i don't want a girlfriend who doesn't take care of herself, and taking care of herself means that she can't be my girlfriend.

so it's basically a healthy relationship with a healthy ending and it still hurts, it still feels like a rejection, particularly since i'm still, like, undergoing abuse on an ongoing basis professionally. and because all of this is happening around a community that i have really conflicted feelings about, where there's been a lot of, like, fucked up abusive shit going on over the past year that's really affected me a lot. and so what happens is that i'm in a real real real lot of pain and making healthy decisions is not an option. i just gotta kind of like hang on, even though at that point i don't have any idea what the hell is going on, all i can say is "IT HURTS", even though i'm not in a state where i'm _able_ to actually figure out what's going on. that's what i mean by "learning to be mentally ill"... like that's going to cause _some_ sort of damage to me and/or to my relationships with other people, and i'm kind of like...

like, i've tried doing self-defense training, and most of that isn't physical stuff. the thing is that if you're gonna do physical stuff, you have to be able to do it _without thinking about it_. like someone comes at you and just instinctively you gotta be able to do what's necessary to give yourself space to get the fuck away from them to safety. that's kind of what acute chronic suicidality is for me. i'm literally not capable of thinking rationally and i just have to _instinctively_ be able to handle that situation. that's what "learning to be mentally ill" means to me.

go to work tomorrow or kill self tough call

go to work, hate it or love it, and find some time to make posts that will intentionally and/or unintentionally irritate people here!

But please stay.

i'm sorry, that was an irresponsible drunk post
really

the voice keeps screaming at me but i'm not planning, for my loved ones' sake if not my own

We love you NV

^^^

NV <3

we need the likes of us around! Wishing you strength

<3 (please share with others too) <3

much love NV

we're here for you as much as we can be

look after yrself NV, we love you ❤️❤️❤️

^

NV we are pulling for you

ilx is a better place for the presence of your acerbity. thank you for all you bring to this place and to those you love. we love you.

Hey buddy. You're one of the voices here that never misses, imo, but that's an awfully dramatic way to get out of a mandated "team-building" staff potluck. Maybe just offer to bring plates? xoxo

You're the man NV ✊

<3 NV

Just adding to the virtual words of encouragement

Thank you all very much and I'm sorry for making people worry

Anxiety's been running amok for a couple of weeks, I don't think going for a big sesh yesterday was the smart move. The talking therapies people should get in touch with me...eventually. just need to do some self care and wait for the fog to recede

do all you guys see someone? shrink/therapist/etc. i still just can't do it. i'm too afraid to. i wish i could. i just can't...

I have in the past. I had to push beyond some fear to get myself to one, but it was very helpful the short time I was with them. I get there can be a social and internalized stigmas around this stuff... But 1. bugger that 2. Life's short, might as well try something once (especially ya know, a healthy thing) 3. No one even needs to know except yourself, and if you go once and absolutely hate it, then so be it.
I didn't even really feel like I 100% needed it. Just had a bit of an emotional breakdown out of no where when I was flying to Tehran that I didn't understand, had friends talking about seeing psychologists, was feeling burnt out and a little early-20's lost, and thought "eh bugger it, lets see what all the talk is about?"

It was very helpful. It leveled me out. The psychologist helped me to see things it would have taken a long time to see without their help. I say go for it scott

Therapy is the best man, you get to talk all about yourself and all the things that bother you and this smart person has to a) listen & be nice, and b) help you, like its literally their actual whole entire job. like how is there not a catch here, it feels like i’m getting away with something

^^See when you put it like that, I want to delete my last post hah. There is something inherently shameful in oversharing to a stranger, we are taught this from a very young age!!!

i think i mentioned this before on this thread or another thread but my big fear is that i will start talking and then break down and never stop crying and i don't really want that to happen. so, that's my fear. i have a ton of bottled-up stuff. kinda like how i always felt like if i got a massage i would literally die from having decades of pain and discomfort in my neck/shoulders/back loosened to the point of death. pain i carefully put there with years of nervous tics and anxiety and stress. i know that's crazy. but i really feel that.
i dunno, maybe i'll just go for it. i have a doctor's appointment in july to talk about medicine and they can hook me up with someone there and maybe this is the time. i definitely need it. i have nobody to talk to other than maria and there is so much i can't really tell her easily.
i had this extremely sad moment the other night when i realized that i had zero people i could call in case of distress. nobody i would feel comfortable unraveling to on the phone. or just someone to be my ally/friend/tell me its going to be okay/talk me down. i talk to my kids about my stuff a little but i don't want to burden them. that's not what they are there for. though i am friends with my kids. and maria has her own stuff that she has to deal with and i don't want to stress her out with my anxiety.

I'll give you my number if you want it. I don't have anybody besides my wife to talk to in Montana.

Scott (and others), if you’re worried about the emotional pain of letting it all out, therapy doesn’t have to be about opening old wounds and digging into the past right away, right now I’m just sort of working on simple practical stuff with my therapist on building healthy coping mechanisms and such. Simple stuff like breathing. Eating! I know everyone is different

I have a PA that I go to once every three months for med refills, but otherwise, I just sign up for studies so I can get a little bit of therapy once in a while. I do have SI, but it passes very quickly, I never want to act on it, and it seems to me more like an anxiety symptom than anything else.

do all you guys see someone? shrink/therapist/etc. i still just can't do it. i'm too afraid to. i wish i could. i just can't...

― scott seward

oh christ almighty yes, pretty much constantly from the age of 18 on. god, if y'all think i trauma dump _now_, if i didn't have therapy for support, well, i'd have a lot harder time of it

regarding the crying, well, i cry a lot. a lot a lot. and sometimes i've felt like i could just never stop crying. a good therapist, to me, like...

i mean there are so many kinds of crying, just like there are so many different kinds of love. when i have a good cry, i cry when i need to, and stop, and that weight that i've been carrying around, it doesn't feel so heavy. it's ok to cry. and a good therapist, that can help with the good crying.

it's important to have people you can open up to as well. it's been really hard for me, the last couple of years, i've been through some bad stuff and i've been afraid to open up to people and it's... i'd say it's worth doing the work

you deserve to be happy, you deserve to not have to carry all that shit around with you. i carried so much around with me for so long and i'm still working on it. i'm not talking gender stuff, it's not really about that. just about all those _burdens_.

my big fear is that i will start talking and then break down and never stop crying and i don't really want that to happen.

crying doesn't increase one's sadness so much as it expresses it, and that word is valuable to contemplate. the ex- prefix is a good clue to the process. it releases and expels.

it may feel like you have an endless reservoir of sadness and it's true that one can cry a helluva lot and still feel like it has only lifted a small part of that weight, but if that weight were something physical, like hauling around a massive bag of bricks, you could more easily see how hauling 10 or 20 or 50 fewer bricks around is A Good Thing and A Relief, even if you still have to haul too many bricks in that bag. the only way to get any of that relief is to make a start and whittle away at it.

if the fear is that you'll disintegrate into a useless puddle of tears until you die, because it is impossible to stop, that's a common fear, but far more often than not it is a lie your brain tells you. if all that sadness you carry could kill you, you'd already be dead or at least useless. you just need a safe time and space to dive in deeply, with support, and time and space to re-emerge and continue as you do in the face of your sadness every day right now.

if the fear is how awful it will feel when you really confront the reasons for your sadness, you are correct that it feels awful when it is coming up to the surface. that is the price, but it is better than never feeling anything at all and it doesn't make anything worse in reality. it's only having bad feelings about your reality, not creating a worse reality by noticing what is already there anyway. it's grief, that's all. it's being human, and being human is better than stopping being human.

lastly, you don;t have to do it alone. ever. you can share it with people who care and they will lend you that caring. it helps. a lot. good luck.

I can't say it any better. There's been times when I'm heaving-crying that I've briefly split and thought to myself "wtf, how is there so much - did I open a portal into the dimension of tears?" A therapist I had called it "getting the poison out" but he was super-smart that way.

thanks so much for the feedback you guys. i really appreciate it! i wasn't fishing for phone numbers when i said i had nobody to call but i would definitely reach out if i needed to. i just remember thinking: didn't i used to have friends who i talked to on the phone? and then the realization that that was decades ago. i mean, i know lots of people. but the idea of calling any of them is such a foreign idea.

i like ilx people so much. ilxor gerald mcboingboing came in my store the other day and it was such a relief to talk to someone who kinda knew me for me! you know? i even mentioned to him that i loved to talk to ilx people in real life because i didn't have to slow down. i could be myself. i don't have friends like that around here. though i know lots of lovely people.

I love the lot of you.

if the fear is that you'll disintegrate into a useless puddle of tears until you die, because it is impossible to stop, that's a common fear, but far more often than not it is a lie your brain tells you. if all that sadness you carry could kill you, you'd already be dead or at least useless. you just need a safe time and space to dive in deeply, with support, and time and space to re-emerge and continue as you do in the face of your sadness every day right now.

very otm

I saw a therapist for the first time about a year ago. We moved to a new city and I'm not working, so I don't know anybody and I've had a lot of stuff building up in my head and gumming up the works for a while now. I had been putting it off for a long time and I was nervous about it. It became my favorite part of the week and I got to where I was looking forward to it, even if we were going to be dealing with difficult stuff in an upcoming session. Eventually it ran its course and I got what I needed out of it. If times get hard I might go in again, but it relieved a lot of mental pressure. I don't feel "fixed" as much as I feel as though I'm carrying less baggage around. I highly recommend therapy to everyone. Totally worth it. If you don't click with a therapist, immediately look for another one until you find someone you're comfortable with.

I am a big supporter of interfacing one's doctor with a proper psychiatric evaluation. Personally, I spent over a decade without any actual diagnosis, and was pursuing therapy and medication at the suggestion of therapists, my doctor, and (most frustratingly) walk-in clinics when that was all that was available to me. (I was told I was bipolar, then perfectly healthy, and then borderline, and then bipolar again, and none of these things ended up being the case.)

When my mental health deteriorated to a state of criticality (i.e. constant suicidality), much of the work I was doing was just getting to a place where I didn't attempt again. It was only when I was "out of the woods", in this regard, so to speak, and yet was still wishing-I-was-dead every day-I-was-alive, that I went through a proper diagnosis, and we made a proper plan involving medication and therapy and so forth that was all aspects working in tandem, rather than just grasping at straws.

I don't know what the health care is like where you live, NV, but it took some research for me to finally access a proper psych eval. With a set of conclusions in hand, and a set of recommendations, I worked with my doctor on finding a proper med/therapy response, and we got it right almost immediately. I went from thinking "man I wish I'd succeeded in killing myself" every day to feeling greyly functional at all times, not better, not happy, but human again. I hope you might consider this route! I hope it might work for you!

if the fear is that you'll disintegrate into a useless puddle of tears until you die, because it is impossible to stop, that's a common fear, but far more often than not it is a lie your brain tells you. if all that sadness you carry could kill you, you'd already be dead or at least useless. you just need a safe time and space to dive in deeply, with support, and time and space to re-emerge and continue as you do in the face of your sadness every day right now.

oh god don't say that, i've felt so useless for so long :( i mean i'm _not_ useless but i certainly _feel_ useless.

if the fear is how awful it will feel when you really confront the reasons for your sadness, you are correct that it feels awful when it is coming up to the surface. that is the price, but it is better than never feeling anything at all and it doesn't make anything worse in reality. it's only having bad feelings about your reality, not creating a worse reality by noticing what is already there anyway. it's grief, that's all. it's being human, and being human is better than stopping being human.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless)

i used to have a therapist who said "it hurts coming out like it hurts going in"