Northern Lights

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So is this Pullman geezer any good or is he just the snob-value alternative to Pottermania? I ask because in need of brain-candy I almost bought the first book in his series on Sunday, except when I opened it up it had some description of an Oxford college on the first page I looked at and in the words of Green Velvet "I don't need this shit". So I bought 'Mason & Dixon' instead. But anyway what about him?

Tom, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I loved the books! They're much better than Harry Potter (which i did like), not so simplistic. In some places he seems to be trying a bit too hard to bring in as many allusions as possible so we realise how clever he really is but i really enjoyed reading them.

As for the Oxford thing, I like books set in places i know. The first one is in an 'alternative Oxford', much more mediaeval, and the second starts off in 'real Oxford' - i even went out of my way to see the place where Will finds the opening between worlds! But enough of my sadness - why not borrow them from the library if you're not sure you'll like them?

liz, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Tom is too busy leaving the gas on to join a lending library.

And anyway you would have to go into the kids section and risk the wrath of raised eyebrows.

Pete, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yeah the kids section in a library is even scarier than that in a bookshop - there's the risk of 'storytellers' in stripey tights being there for one thing.

Tom, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

1978 top 10 hit for Renaissance wasn't it? The lady singer was married to Roy Wood (I think?).

Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yeah, fair enough. I did feel pretty sheepish, especially when I had to ask the librarian if there was another copy cos the first one had ripped pages! No sight of anyone wearing stripy socks though, fortunately.

liz, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

If they'd been ripped by Orton and/or Halliwell they'd be worth millions.

Phil "I'm Norra Nazi Honest" Larkin, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Kenneth Halliwell = Geri Halliwell's uncle hurrah!!

mark s, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Don't forget the jacket blurbs. "It comes as a shock to know that little Daisy has been interfered with..."

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I didn't realise it was a kids book when I read it - a friend gave it to me for my birthday. I loved it.

toraneko, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Renaissance: That would be Annie Haslam. She did go out with Roy Wood in the mid 70s but I don't think they were ever married.

MarkS, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Got to admit, I thought the same thing as Marcello when I came to the ILE frontpage. Though it would be even more improbable than Tom liking Street Fighting Years-era Simple Minds (he doesn't, does he?) if it was.

Terribly evocative song, though. Philip Pullman is one of those writers I always intend to read and find out more about than I know (what generally ends up happening is that I stick with Peter Dickinson).

Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

read em already tom, you anti-canonist bastard.

mason and dixon, eh?

pynchon vs. pullman - FITE.

jess, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

not a very long one tho

mark s, Tuesday, 20 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

With Marcello, Mark and Robin on thinking this thread would be a celebration of Renaissance's biggest smash.

Recall mentioning "Northern Lights" to a 40-ish work-colleague during my undergrad year-in-industry. "Bah", he scowled... "the *hit single*?" Meaning: there was far more to them that *that*, you silly little boy.

Michael Jones, Wednesday, 21 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I sang a refrain of "Belfast Child" with Mr Baran in the pub last night.

Tom, Wednesday, 21 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Now here comes the *real* credibility-destroyer: the Real Life album and the singles off it. Especially "Stand By Love".

Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 21 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Admittedly it says something about the shallowness of my Simple Minds wuv that my lyrical contribution to this refrain was "um um Belfast Child sings again".

Real Life is STILL on the jukebox in the Crown in Oxford. Along with TWO Status Quo best-ofs and TWO copies of the 'Magnificent 70s' 2CD set.

Tom, Wednesday, 21 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

And was Gary Davies's fifth favourite album ever. Even more self- parodically, "Waterfront" off Sparkle In The Rain was his third favourite single.

Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 21 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

one month passes...
Ah, here it is. Anyway I bought the first book in Victoria WH Smiths (where nobody knows your name, actually nobody knows your name in any bookshop but it's less embarrassing buying kids books there for some reason) and it was ACE in a kind of high-falutin' way. But they didn't have book 2.

Tom, Wednesday, 2 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

read them over christmas. loved the first one, thought the second one was ok, hated the third one (well, not quite, but i really thought he blew it). i'd like to see them filmed - gay angels, killing god etc etc in a kids' film would amuse me greatly.

toby, Wednesday, 2 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Coincidentally entertaining thing on Real Life LP: '*See* The Lights', which used to play on R1 while I was Revising. (So did 'There's No Other Way'.)

the pinefox, Wednesday, 2 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Northern Lights = name of best selling, extremely potent, hydroponic weed. Smells disgusing. Not my cup of tea, hehe.

stevo, Wednesday, 2 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Penelope Cruise, ha ha! Has this point been made before?

Tom Cruise was really good in Days of Thunder.

Kris, Wednesday, 2 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I think Northern Lights is great. Reading it reminded me of first falling in love with books. You should read read it. Yes you should.

ducklingmonster, Wednesday, 2 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Northern Lights = name of best selling, extremely potent, hydroponic weed. Smells disgusing. Not my cup of tea, hehe.

I so hope this is true, as Northern Lights was also the name of Canada's attempt at USA For Africa.

Brian MacDonald, Thursday, 3 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

eight months pass...
partway thru "the subtle knife": NL is good

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 21:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

Ah, I love Lyra and Will.

nory (nory), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 22:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

stevo is rott

boxcubed (boxcubed), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 22:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

halfway thru "the amber spyglass": so far toby = off the money

blimey a series of books triangulated by sam delany, c.s.lewis and richard adams!! (yeah yeah also milton)

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 14 September 2002 16:45 (twenty-one years ago) link

I loved this trilogy, and I'm certain that I'll reread it (which I may not do with Mason & Dixon, terrific as it is). I think it had just about everything you would want in kids'/teenagers' books - strong characters, lots of action, fresh and resonant ideas, polar bears in armour, magic and more - but also lots as an extra reward for adults, like interesting uses of cutting edge science and powerful anti-religious themes (major message: even if religion were completely true, it is still a bad thing). One warning: the friend who introduced me to Northern Lights listened to Pullman being interviewed on the radio after reading the first two, and thought him such an arse that he hasn't been able to bring himself to read The Amber Spyglass.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 14 September 2002 17:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

I think if I had read this when I was 10 or 11 they'd be my favourite books ever. As it is I just really really liked them. The ending is odd though - Pullman's love-redeems-all-in-a-fallen-world philosophy reminds me of none other than M.Houellebecq actually. Except more literal. But yeah taking sides: "the republic of heaven" vs perpetual orgasm clonetopia!

Tom (Groke), Saturday, 14 September 2002 23:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

no spoilers!!

lyra s (mark s), Saturday, 14 September 2002 23:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

ok mark you may be right - i guess the ending just blows it for cynical old me. but i still think the first book is best.

(more with spoilers when you've finished!).

toby (tsg20), Saturday, 14 September 2002 23:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

Oi Mark read the books not this thread then! Nobody listened to *me* when I cried spoilers on the Sarah Hyrule thread!!

Tom (Groke), Saturday, 14 September 2002 23:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

Thanks for making me dig out The Amber Spyglass to finally finish it- I just wasted 4 hours on it this afternoon. I love the first book, but the second two aren't quite as classic-The Subtle Knife felt especially threadbare in comparision. The US version of the cover of book 1 is also one of the most amazing ones I've seen:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0679879242/reader/1/

Has anyone read the Lemony Snicket books? They're hilarious, and so short that you can just whiz through them in one sitting.

lyra (lyra), Sunday, 15 September 2002 01:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

ok i finished it this morning

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 15 September 2002 09:27 (twenty-one years ago) link

Tom - no-one listened to you 'cos ye watch it while Sarah plays it. Fuel! God.

david h (david h), Sunday, 15 September 2002 09:45 (twenty-one years ago) link

*SPOILERS (AND HYPOCRISY) ALERT*

what i found exciting abt the third book was the way that — having opened (or revealed) all the holes between worlds (which is also a way of turning his ferocious and wide-ranging trope-theft from a drag to a power — he could create a sense of place-pace which meant you too were jaunting between all his juggled ideas, like leaping from peak to peak, too fast entirely to follow why he was doing things (except i think he was travelling that fast also: don't look down or you'll fall)

given that HDM is narnian through and through, it's nice — though signalled almost from page one — that closure sides w.banished susan and her lipstick

who is the SF writer who wrote abt the river of the dead: philip jose farmer?

if the subtle knife is the writer's penned style ("stylus" = cutting point or prow blah blah), then the holes-into-other-worlds are books (or anyway pages): so why is he so fixated on their being closed at puberty's arrival? (admittedly it's the same story-arc as LotR: that immersion in the lyrical adventure quests — in the end — for the passing of lyrical adventure from life's world into memory's => the ring that made this time-and-space, this fellowship, these encounters, these sights and sounds and smells and passions, is being taken to be unmade)

attempt at a reason why the last battle is actually as good as it is, despite susan's exile and lewis's occasional timidity and the whole YES YES THE LION IS JESUS aspect => i think he, perhaps because actually theologically learned, recognised that the war between the xtian promise of an eternal bryter-layter (which of course can drain vitality and joy from the now) and pullman's or tolkien's powerful love of ordinary time-bounded life (which manifests in great waves of brilliantly written desolate partings and endings, of bonedeep resignation as the paid-price for current intensity of emotion) is a more evenly matched battle of like things that pullman or tolkien entirely recognise

ie the gap between that patient inner resignation and the Authority's bid to control and limit is not quite as far as it seems

eg tolk and pullman are both very very wary of the idea of "deathlessness", and how it pollutes and betrays: lewis turns this on its head, and says eternity o'bliss means being in the shape of yr actual lived life, when you loved it, at an unfettered level of grasp of its loveliness

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 15 September 2002 10:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

Yeah, that was Farmer.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 15 September 2002 11:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

three months pass...
ok now rereading: question for those familiar

why do the spectres of cittagazza (sp) ignore MARY MALONE and FATHER GOMEZ? it's stated as a phenom, re both, but not explained... (ps i am still only halfway thru AMBER SPYGLASS second time round so maybe it will be)

mark s (mark s), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:08 (twenty-one years ago) link

I dunno. The only thing they have in common is their membership of holy orders, but I can't really see why that would be significant.

RickyT (RickyT), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

If Mary hadn't left the convent and GOT IT ON with her ex-bloke, adulthood+virginity might be their shared state and what keeps them safe from Spectres. Maybe it's love=dust=sin? Was Mary in love with her seductive chap? Can't remember.

Liz :x (Liz :x), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:21 (twenty-one years ago) link

Isn't it the adulthood rather than the getting it on that attracts the spectres, the dust resulting from the awareness that this brings? So the virginity or otherwise of the two is kind of irrelevant. Though I suppose it could be possible that Gomez was some sort of uber pure ultramonk who'd never had an impure thought in his life.

RickyT (RickyT), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

ooh yes chastity, hadn't tht of that!! (if so = a top tolk link, at least if you accept the "bilbo = frodo = gollum = virgin" theory)

mark s (mark s), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

surely "adulthood vs getting it on" = "chicken vs egg", rickyt

mark s (mark s), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

thought != action

RickyT (RickyT), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

it does if you're jebus

mark s (mark s), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

Good point. But Mary Malone had certainly felt carnal desire and was therefore pretty damn fallen => had lotsa dust => prime spectre food.


RickyT (RickyT), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

so is something pullman hasn't work out properly, maybe?

my guess b4 liz linked it to sex wz that it ties up with why will breaks the knife = he thinks of the "silver fox" (as in, "for a magic spell to work, you have to run round the house 50s times and never think of the silver fox") (only he says "crocodile" instead of "silver fox", and his crocodile is his mom: meanwhile his mom fends off spectres by counting railings and not thinking of HER silver fox, whatever it is...)

in other words, it relates to (actually active) desire in some form, the form having a definable relationship to a spectre-target's destiny? (spectres = actual real manifestation of being torn between desires?)

mark s (mark s), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

Whereas Mary is very calm & priest bloke is evilly focused. No conflict of desires, eh? You might have something there. Of course it could just be messiness on Pullman's part.

Liz :x (Liz :x), Friday, 3 January 2003 13:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

I listened to the radio play of Northern Lights yesterday (BBC Radio 4) and thoroughly enjoyed it. Much darker and much more depth than Potter. I look forward to the next two installments.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 January 2003 14:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

finishing amber spygalss didn't solve the spectres riddle, exactly: a key dialectic for pullman = innocence vs experience, and there's the somewhat complicated matter of ppl having threefold personhood (bodies, ghosts, daemons = bodies, souls, spirits, i think... )

i don't know if the geometry of this actually works though => what's nice is that it's an axiomatic mythos with a lot of unfolding still to be done, towards proof or otherwise of completeness AND consistency

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 7 January 2003 15:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

I forgot about the bloody radio show! I'm a cockfarmer! And I'm going to have to read it again!!

Sarah (starry), Wednesday, 8 January 2003 10:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

Does anyone know if I can save that RAM file (from eds link) to play later? I really want to listen to it but not right now.
I tried and can only get it to stream.
Oh and, Yeah - Classic for Iorek alone. NL and SK are great, the Amber Spyglass just felt rushed and unfinished - from what I know he was under deadline pressures and suffered some illness whilst writing it.
Also, fuck faintly secluded moral messages in childrens books. I'm all for teaching kids how to get ahead by breaking the law. (see Danny the Champion of the World and Artemis Fowl)

Simeon (Simeon), Wednesday, 8 January 2003 13:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

Don't think real-player lets you do that. There may of course be some kind of hack to allow you to though.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 8 January 2003 13:26 (twenty-one years ago) link


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