Is the Guardian worse than it used to be?

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My feeling is: Yes, somewhat. But Regular Readers will recall that I am a curmudgeon who doesn't like New Things. So do they really want to agree with me here? Plus, we do have (somewhere round here) a house Guardian expert whose opinion would be interesting.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Some readers might, conceivably, like to know that the Guardian (formerly Manchester Guardian) is a UK daily newspaper which has for several decades been the main print source / gathering-point, as it were, for those on 'The Liberal Left'. Many UK ILE posters, I imagine, know it very well and have done for many years, so I thought there might be some opinions around.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

I like the Guardian now more than I have for years. Perhaps the restyle of the mag helped, but generally the Burchill thing works for me and I haven't noticed a drop in quality elsewhere. The Guide has always been shite (and I say that working for PA Listings) but the rest seems cool. Can you specify what's gone wrong for you?

― chris, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

I hate the Guardian - particularly the G2 section, with it's crappy 'think' pieces, terrible arts reviews and smug phillistinism - and have bought it every weekday and Saturdays for at least the last fifteen years. Because, being a bleeding heart liberal and a news junkie, I couldn't bring myself to read any of the other rags (morning papers are somehow part of my going to work coping ritual.) I flirted with the Independent for a while - and the IOS still has the great film critic David Thomson writing for 'em - but I found it to be even more boring than the Guardian. I suspect that I am far from alone in all this, and that the Guardian survives on the unearned good will of the liberal middle classes.

Funnily enough, I quite like the Guide, partly because Joe Queenan and Byron Coley sometimes write for it, partly because it means I no longer have to buy that useless piece of toss Time Out anymore.

― Andrew L, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

I've never actually bought a copy of the Guardian, if I did buy a newspaper I'd get the Telegraph, it has a good weather section, obituaries, world news briefs and I like the sports section.

― james e l, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

I suppose the short answer is 'Trivialization'. One has to be a tad careful using a word like that, because, for instance,

1. The simplification of the accusation may just echo what it asserts about the target (just as 'Dumbing Down' is a dumb, dull phrase);

2. If I don't like Triviality, why don't I read nothing but 10-page reports from the former Yugoslavia? It would be hypocritical of me to say that I simply wanted them to be SERIOUS and SOLEMN and RESPONSIBLE all the time. No, that's not it.

What I mean, I suppose, is that too many features, esp. in G2, now look dashed-off - half-hearted, half-baked, unconvincing, just cliché pies really. Today's Lara Croft piece was just the latest of a million examples. It feels (the terms are problematic here, I know) JOURNALISTIC in a bad way - trite, unconsidered, full of crowd- pleasing Received Ideas - rather than JOURNALISTIC in a good way (that is: dogged, resourceful, brave, mentally agile, snappy and what have you).

It's the world of second-hand Lifestyle phrases that bugs me. The way that adults can still write a phrase like "*that* dress" and not hang their heads in shame.

A rider to all my bile, though, is that my previous, more impressed impressions of the Guardian may just reflect youthful impressionability. (Sentence!) Maybe the same kind of crap used to impress me that now feels rubbishy, faux-zeitgeisty and embarrassing? Maybe, but I suspect it's a bit of both.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Andrew L: I know what you mean - the Labour party factor of Nowhere Else To Go? (And brand loyalty, or whatever you want to call it.) There's actually a Verso book out (yet?) which makes a massive attack on the Guardian as home of neo-conservative (ie New Labour) ideas. I find this rather unconvincing and overstated. Even offensive, come to think of it.

I agree about Queenan too. But most of all, I agree about Thomson. There's almost no point having a thread about Thomson, because people who know what they think about him already know it all and would just send in superlatives.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Andrew L, and indeed everyone: cut em loose and let em drown in their own smug laziness!! I stopped buying it a YEAR ago FOREVER and now buy NO NEWSPAPER and am FREE. (Actually I too buy saturday for the guide — and for the food page in the mag, but the mag redesign is utter shit, and the recipes are in fact on long recycle: eg I have seen Lady Llandower's Duck three times now, always copied (of course) from Elizabeth David Salt, Spices and Aromatics...) The age of the newspaper is dead.

― mark s, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Something has clearly gone wrong with G2: the other week they ran a page-long feature on the phenomenon of "Jumping the shark" (referring to that moment when a long-running tv fave finally loses the plot completely, apparently derived from a late episode of Happy Days where Fonzie, yes, jumped a shark). This was all well and good (except it was inane and ripped off from a website [this is a whole other can of worms]), but they ran an almost IDENTICAL story in the Guide not two weeks previously. Do they not read their own paper, or did they simply think the readers wouldn't notice?

What the paper still has going for it: George Monbiot's column, the Diary, Steve Bell, giving review space to Ians Sansom and Penman, and the tv columns of Nancy Banks-Smith. (When N B-S finally pops her clogs I will have to think very hard about buying the paper.)

What is leading the paper ever closer to the abyss: consistently terrible pop coverage (honorable exceptions: Maddy Costa, Betty Clarke); the fatuous new Saturday mag (Zoe Ball on dressing? match the celebrity with the pet? that awful woman talking about words that should be banned??); Charlotte bloody Raven.

― stevie t, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

What I mean, I suppose, is that too many features, esp. in G2, now look dashed-off - half-hearted, half-baked, unconvincing, just cliché pies really. (Pinefox)

I agree with you there. They sucker you in with the G2 front cover (and the masthead of the main paper), but when you get to read the cover story it often appears cobbled together and lightweight. I imagine it must be difficult to fill that space with high quality stories day in day out though.

― David, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Stevie: agree about Steve Bell, of course. I mean, if only for the sake of 1981 and all that. But actually, he draws and paints better now.

I actually like Peter Preston's awkward, staccato opinion pieces, come to think of it. But not the pompous ones of Hugo Young. Freedland is sometimes good at summing political issues up, but usually he 'sums up' too much - there's too much glibness in the way he marshals it all. (I admit again, though, that it's easy - even glib - to call someone glib.)

Penman strikes me as a red herring. I can see that he doesn't do that to you, cos you have some kind of investment in his career. I agree about Sansom (great left-back, mean penalty, blah blah) - in fact I think that the whole Saturday book reviews section is quite possibly the best feature of the paper. EXCEPT of course the footy. Heroes? How could I forget David Lacey?

BUT I think that you are wrong about N B-S. It doesn't surprise me that older folk make that judgement about her; it does rather surprise me coming from you. She has skills, I guess, but she's terribly repetitive; uses the same lines on the same topics year in year out. It's all too - yes - glib and easy, while dressed up to look aged and thus wise.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

I agree with much of what's been said. After Mark Steel and Jeremy Hardy went, it didn't seem as essential anymore. The Observer's the same - just dear old Phil Hogan that still makes me go down the shops Sunday morning

― jamesmichaelward, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

My parents used to get a subscription to the Guardian shipped to them for the first few years they were in the States, because they couldn't trust the US Media. The Guardian just isn't the same when it's not printed on that semi-transluscent airmail paper.

I only read it for the Guide and the job listings. Not that either has been particularly helpful lately... ;-)

― masonic boom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Steve Bell is a GOD but apart from that I read it largely out of having nowhere else to go and a worry that I'll become totally detached from the world if I don't read any newspapers at all. I think it might have marginally improved with the loss of Messrs. Hardy and Steel though. Everything they wrote was just as predictable and smug as any of the other writers mentioned above, only with a more left wing stance.

― Richard Tunnicliffe, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

I don't read anything except the Spectator. Hey Chris, if you work for PA Listings then that means you're in the same building as me.

― tarden, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

The Guide last week (or was it the week before) had that BRILLIANT article slamming not just the Strokes, but the entire music hype industry... VERY funny because it was so clearly written by an insider who had been participating in the music hype game for so long.

― masonic boom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

I'd love to comment, but those Observer commissions are keeping me out of the poor house. Anything appearing in the Guardian or the Obs by my deepest and dearest friends is obviously genius...

― Mark Morris, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

As bad as the Guardian may have become, it's still better than the so-called "best" American newspapers. Or, if you think it couldn't get worse, it could end up becoming The New York Times or The Washington Post.

― Tadeusz Suchodolski, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Reynard's right about the amount of trivial toss that gets in there. Mark's also right about the decline of the newspaper in general. Reynard's spot on re. New Labour - the Guardian's frequent criticism of some Blairite attitudes is one of the great things about it.

There's a lot of irritating stuff, yes. My favourite columnist is George Monbiot, by a mile. Something I like about the Independent when I do get it is that its liberalism is less metropolitan and more about the common good. Needless to say, though, the Guardian's series of articles on public service under that very title were awesome.

― The Hemulen Who Loved Silence, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

OK, agree with the Hemulen re. The Common Good.

Today's G2 seems designed to add fuel to my (f)ire: one page of 'Style' after another, including a column on Why We're So Disappointed That Madonna Employs A Stylist.

― the pinefox, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Although Toynbee's piece on Labour post-election is admirable.

― blue veils and golden sands, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

Broadly I agree with her, yes. It feels a wee bit ironic given her immediately-pre-election pieces telling everyone how urgent it was to overcome apathy and vote for the people she's now criticizing. (But actually I think she was right both times.)

Also good in Guardian: John Patterson re. cinema.

― the pinefox, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (seventeen years ago) Permalink

six years pass...

oh god, ask hadley today is just... tooth-grinding.

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:17 (eleven years ago) Permalink

"today"

― Dom Passantino, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:17 (eleven years ago) Permalink

"At what age is a man too old to wear band T-shirts?"

Martin McCall, by email

"About 15 - that young enough for you, Martin? And to follow one rhetorical question with several more, what in God's name is the point of band T-shirts anyway? To show your allegiance to a band? Do you think anyone else cares? To impress onlookers with your esoteric musical knowledge? See previous reply. To make people stare at your bony chest? Again, I refer you to the first answer. To show that you once attended a live gig? Wow, like, a pair of golden headsets to the guy in the Nirvana '91 T-shirt. In case you happen to bump into the lead singer on the street, he sees that the two of you are kindred souls and therefore invites you to join his band and you then go on the road and have all the manly bonding sessions followed by groupies that your heart could desire? OK, I'll give you that one, although this does suggest that you still harbour the fantasy that you might bump into Joey Ramone in Waterstone's.

"As for ladies in band T-shirts, give me a fricking break. First, gals, a badly cut, poorly made, oversized T-shirt is good for nothing other than wearing to bed and the gym. Second, too often women who wear band T-shirts appear to be going for what we shall call Groupie Chic. It is a style amply modelled by Kate Moss in recent years, and can pretty much be summed up as skinny faded black jeans, ankle boots, a ripped band T-shirt and a cropped fur jacket. In other words, a girlified version of Marc Bolan's or Keith Richards' wardrobe, as though the woman has been so busy, um, sleeping on the band bus she hasn't had time to clean her clothes, so she's now wearing ones belonging to her musical companion. This column has no time for such nonsense."

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:19 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, because women have *no* interest in music whatsoever except for sleeping with musicians. What CENTURY is this cretin from?

― Masonic Boom, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:21 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I think I stopped wearing band T-shirts by the time I was 23. It wasn't necessarily a conscious move tho. I doubt I will ever wear one again tho - I guess it seems lame unless it's an old obscure or overlooked thus hip act (even this I dunno about). I don't notice many people over 20 wearing them. Does Matt DC still have that Save Ferris T?

I only want to sleep with musicians if they are hot as they are (their musical ability is pretty irrelevant in fact).

― blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:29 (eleven years ago) Permalink

dear teh grauniad - a long time ago/we used to be friends...

― CharlieNo4, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:32 (eleven years ago) Permalink

It went downhill after I left.

― Dom Passantino, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:33 (eleven years ago) Permalink

or were you PUSHED?

― blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:35 (eleven years ago) Permalink

http://homepage.mac.com/alexinnyc/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2007-09-02%2015.37.57%20-0700/Image-D15E03FF59A011DC.jpg

heh. (sorry alex, no harm intended)

― CharlieNo4, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:36 (eleven years ago) Permalink

http://www.abc.net.au/sport/thesportsdesk/images/200607/20060707henrydive_derblog.jpg

― Dom Passantino, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:36 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i was being harsh really. i don't care what's on other people's t-shirts that much. just trying to work out why i stopped wearing/wouldn't wear band t-shirts myself.

― blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:37 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Any t-shirt which isn't plain white clearly sucks that's why.

― aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:38 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i couldn't agree less

― blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:40 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I still wear band t-shirts if I like the band. Why not? I don't *define* myself or my personality by my music tastes any more, I haven't done that since I was about 18. But that's not the same thing as wearing a band t-shirt.

I suppose the fashion journalist in discussion cannot fathom the idea that clothes are just something you put on, rather than a definition of or statement about your personality.

This is definitely something that happens as you age - or rather, has happened to me as I aged. There's a subtle difference between Statement Clothes and just things you put on.

― Masonic Boom, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:40 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Guardian editorial worldview circa 2007:

http://www.astucia.co.uk/images/sce/galibier%20tunnel%20_three.jpg

― tissp, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:41 (eleven years ago) Permalink

why else would you buy a band t-shirt if not as a statement or definition of personality?

― blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:44 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I didn't know it was a band t-shirt okay?

― Matt DC, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:45 (eleven years ago) Permalink

because you're cold xp

― tissp, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:45 (eleven years ago) Permalink

In the past I've usually just bought them as a keepsake of a gig I've enjoyed. The piece tracer quotes is idiotic fluff, obv. I'd be embarrased to admit I'd written that.

― Pashmina, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:46 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Because you like the design? Because you like the music? Because it was given to you (this is where most of mine come from)? Because it was a souvenier?

x-post

― Masonic Boom, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:46 (eleven years ago) Permalink

you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

because you like the music = statement/definition of you/your taste

given to you = not you buying

― blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:48 (eleven years ago) Permalink

you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

No, plus I've only ever bought them @ gigs.

because you like the music = statement/definition of you/your taste

Probably yeah, but w/smaller bands there's also the knowledge that in buying it, yr helping to supposrt the tour.

― Pashmina, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:50 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i actually bought a comets on fire t-shirt solely because the design was so awesome. (it was at a gig, but they hadn't come on stage yet.) then i heard the music and i liked that too. i suppose if i hadn't liked their music, or thought it was boring, it would have posed a problem.

a friend of mine, who shall remain nameless so that alex in nyc doesn't stalk and kill him, bought a huge iron maiden patch when he was 14 and sewed it across the shoulders of his denim jacket. he had never heard a note of iron maiden, but he wound up becoming the biggest iron maiden fan i know, and even sung in a band later, where his vocal style was almost inseparable from bruce dickinson's.

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:53 (eleven years ago) Permalink

my take on this: do not read hadley freeman.

this resolution made some time ago, stands as strong today as it ever did.

it's a crass and deliberately invidious piece of writing. such an attitude, if sincerely held, could be turned around on pretty much ANY choice of clothing. so forgeddaboudit

― Alan, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:53 (eleven years ago) Permalink

the last band t-shirt i bought - robyn!

alan i can't help myself, i know i'm sick and need help.

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:54 (eleven years ago) Permalink

is there a thread for best band t-shirts? must see

― blueski, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:56 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Taste is something that I have. It does not define me. Clothes are something I wear. The statement I am making is "I don't really care about clothes any more."

If I'm going to make a statement about clothes, I'll wear a bright green paisley jacket to a dronerock festival where everyone else is in leather.

I suppose my Hawkwind t-shirt is a statement, it says "ha ha, I'm wearing a Hawkwind t-shirt, I care nothing for fashion, I am wearing the shirt of a band so deeply uncool you can suck my left one because I love them!" But it's certainly not a statement saying that I want to f*ck any of Hawkwind or that I have a musician boyfriend whose Hawkwind t-shirt I'm borrowing, which is the assumption of that article.

― Masonic Boom, Monday, 3 September 2007 14:56 (eleven years ago) Permalink

> I don't notice many people over 20 wearing them.

*SOBS*

> you wouldn't actually buy a band t-shirt because you liked the design but not necessarily the band tho...would you?

EAR t-shirt with the putney on the front = great. EAR live = terrible. (EAR on CD = ok, plus pram and stereolab were supporting)

― koogs, Monday, 3 September 2007 15:03 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Skipping 5548 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

lovely stuff

― Leon Carrotsky (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 7 October 2018 16:01 (one week ago) Permalink

studied under edward bawden, if tim is reading -- most obvious in the first image (bawden also illustrated cookery books)

― mark s, Sunday, 7 October 2018 16:03 (one week ago) Permalink

Yeah I really love David Gentleman's work.

I love this also, which is by his dad, Tom Gentleman (love it so much we have it up in our flat)

https://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/P/P01/P01705_10.jpg

― Tim, Sunday, 7 October 2018 21:13 (one week ago) Permalink

that's tremendous.

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 October 2018 22:17 (one week ago) Permalink

just thinking about thos ales.

― calzino, Sunday, 7 October 2018 22:27 (one week ago) Permalink

David Gentleman is still going and did (does?) posters for the Stop The War coalition.Quite a career.
http://www.davidgentleman.com/resized/WEB-11-PROTEST---08.jpg

― Ned Trifle X, Monday, 8 October 2018 08:32 (one week ago) Permalink

i think at this point it would be fair to regard the guardian as the enemy, excepting a few individual journalists

― imago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 13:45 (nine hours ago) Permalink

Honestly my favourite thing about using a content blocker for my phone is never seeing their pleas for money to fund their terf/racist/apologist shit again. That editorial was a disgrace, but it’s just the latest in a long line of shit.

― gyac, Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:00 (nine hours ago) Permalink

What piece are youse referring to?

― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:03 (nine hours ago) Permalink

the editorial on the Gender Recognition Act I presume. tldr. Knew it would be a load of hateful shite.

― calzino, Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:06 (nine hours ago) Permalink

Yep, that’s the one.

― gyac, Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:07 (nine hours ago) Permalink

what exactly do terfs get out of it

― imago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:14 (nine hours ago) Permalink

When I say terfs I don’t mean women; in fact, terfs are much more likely to be men. Women are for the most part, very supportive of trans women. People claiming terf means women are deliberately trying to peddle a fake misogyny narrative. It’s a position based on transphobia.
— Lily🌹Madigan (@LilyMadigan99) October 9, 2018

Who knew men were the radical feminists and not women?

― Bimlo Horsewagon became Wheelbarrow Horseflesh (aldo), Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:20 (nine hours ago) Permalink

you are all joking, surely? the vilest and most hateful part of that particular debate has come from the radical trans wing, abuse from whom against lesbian feminists particularly has been shocking. i was extraordinarly relieved to read even that level support from the guardian.

― FRE SHA VAC ADO (jed_), Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:27 (eight hours ago) Permalink

show your...working?

― imago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:28 (eight hours ago) Permalink

what?

― FRE SHA VAC ADO (jed_), Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:29 (eight hours ago) Permalink

I’m not sure how you can equivocate people doing their best to smear all trans people as paedophiles and rapists against whatever you’ve been seeing? Or the crowd who were out in Manchester the other night approaching random men and warning them trans women were a threat to their daughters?

― gyac, Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:30 (eight hours ago) Permalink

in what way is it inspiring?

― Heavy Messages (jed_), Tuesday, 5 June 2018 01:34 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i guess this is not the thread where you can question the question, though.

― Heavy Messages (jed_), Tuesday, 5 June 2018 01:47 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^ jed is a terf and I claim my £5

― Colonel Poo, Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:31 (eight hours ago) Permalink

that's not what they were doing, it was a couple of activists, not a crowd. conversely, I haven't seen any feminist activists label all trans men as paedophiles and rapists. I have, however, seen trans labour councillors telling (women's councillors!) labour women with concerns to "go fuck themselves" (lilly Madigan) or to "go and suck my big lady cock" (tanya love) if they disagreed with trans women having access to women's safe-spaces.

― FRE SHA VAC ADO (jed_), Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:37 (eight hours ago) Permalink

Thank you for that paste, saves me engaging further here in good faith and wasting any time. As we all know by now, civility is the most important part in a debate about human rights!

― gyac, Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:44 (eight hours ago) Permalink

hey jed, go fuck yourself

― imago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:51 (eight hours ago) Permalink

thank you.

― FRE SHA VAC ADO (jed_), Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:57 (eight hours ago) Permalink

Twitter is unbearable now due to this stuff, can we not spread it here please?

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:59 (eight hours ago) Permalink

I have no idea what the fuck just happened.

― Bimlo Horsewagon became Wheelbarrow Horseflesh (aldo), Thursday, 18 October 2018 15:01 (eight hours ago) Permalink

which stuff

the stuff where some people deny others their personhood and effectively recommend suicide, or the stuff where people resist this

― imago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 15:01 (eight hours ago) Permalink

The bit where any opinion became binary (lol the irony) based on a hyperbolic definition of the opposing stance.

― Bimlo Horsewagon became Wheelbarrow Horseflesh (aldo), Thursday, 18 October 2018 15:05 (eight hours ago) Permalink

i suppose. but this is one case where i feel strongly that one stance is getting nothing out of it except...well, i don't know

― imago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 15:08 (eight hours ago) Permalink

Nobody is getting anything out of it, it's just two groups of people who I generally like shouting at each-other about things like reposting things from other people who once said something that implied something else and all I can get out of it is anxiety and a feeling that nothing will ever be resolved again.

― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 18 October 2018 15:12 (eight hours ago) Permalink

This debate can't get more depressing for me; it's sub-Brexit now

― stet, Thursday, 18 October 2018 15:22 (eight hours ago) Permalink

terf patter much more popular in the uk than it is in canada thankfully. a big thing i notice about the debate in the uk is how disingenuous the terfs are, talking about dangers of "men" using women's services when the majority of uk services for women ran by feminists, such as a rape crisis centres etc. are already trans inclusive and have been for ages!

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 October 2018 16:28 (six hours ago) Permalink

(thankfully for me who lives in canada i should note)

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 October 2018 16:28 (six hours ago) Permalink

Just a little over 10 years ago I was biding time on the waiting list for my flat at women’s accommodation and one of my fellow residents was trans. She had all sorts of problems because her family had shunned her but nobody - not the service users or the people on staff - were in the least bit worried about her not being woman enough, or a threat to other women.

Most ‘gender critical’/terf people have zero experience of interacting with trans people and mein gott, it shows.

― suzy, Thursday, 18 October 2018 16:39 (six hours ago) Permalink

The Scottish press seems v. exercised about this, more so than in the rest of the UK as far as I can tell

― stet, Thursday, 18 October 2018 16:52 (six hours ago) Permalink

I wouldn’t have thought it was physically possible to be more het up about it than The Times, which seems to have made it the central plank all other news is slotted around as space allows.

― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Thursday, 18 October 2018 16:55 (six hours ago) Permalink

the paper of record loves a culture war and i guess campus safe space type pieces lost some of their luster, trans people make a better bogeyman.

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 October 2018 16:59 (six hours ago) Permalink

the safe spacers are the ones who've turned cop in the trans wars. or at least, the terfs are using safe space rhetoric to assert their arguments. snowflakes imo

― imago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 17:10 (six hours ago) Permalink

intersectional language being used to justify bigotry is going to be big in our future. i saw mike cernovich use "bodies" in a tweet yesterday

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 October 2018 17:12 (six hours ago) Permalink

I think there's a general confusion about what ppl understand by 'trans' which isn't helping things.

― kinder, Thursday, 18 October 2018 17:16 (six hours ago) Permalink

maybe; equally we haven't had a good internecine ukilx bunfight in a while and this might be our hour

― imago, Thursday, 18 October 2018 17:17 (six hours ago) Permalink

I've been wondering for months when it was gonna arrive tbh but if there's one place worse than Twitter for nuanced debate it's ilx

― kinder, Thursday, 18 October 2018 17:18 (six hours ago) Permalink

Looking forward to a bunch of cis men explain how to be a good feminist though

― kinder, Thursday, 18 October 2018 17:25 (five hours ago) Permalink

i love that element of the rhetoric around this issue. don't engage with the actual anti-trans element of the argument you would like to make but instead attack allies who don't have the correct identity to be allowed an opinion

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 October 2018 17:32 (five hours ago) Permalink

this is most enjoyable when graham linehan perversely uses this angle

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 October 2018 17:34 (five hours ago) Permalink

checks calendar

lads

its 2018 not back when ilx was good

― Dmac TT (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 October 2018 17:38 (five hours ago) Permalink

― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, October 18, 2018 2:32 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― Ross, Thursday, 18 October 2018 17:42 (five hours ago) Permalink

and then they all het up

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:11 (five hours ago) Permalink

lol
hope you're not referencing fish there

― kinder, Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:14 (five hours ago) Permalink

Good luck uk

― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:15 (five hours ago) Permalink

and then they all het up

this is much better than all the ‘het up’ jokes i cycled thru in my head before tracer beat me to it

― himalayan mountain hole (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:17 (five hours ago) Permalink

I made an inappropriate Eddie Izzard joke on Facebook last night, I'm not touching this

― the Warnock of Clodhop Mountain (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:48 (four hours ago) Permalink

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