Is this anti-semitism?

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I saw this headline and expected to read on and be saddened by the knock-on effects of recent anti-American and anti-Israeli feeling. But on examining it, I don't think I think much of the questions in the survey, or rather the interpretation being put on them.

Nearly 18% said Judaism was “intolerant” and 17% did not consider Jews compatriots.. Sure, that's anti-semitism pure and simple.

Asked if Jews in their countries had a “mentality and lifestyle” different than other citizens, 46% said yes.

Is this? Not all Jewish people, no. But if they choose to participate in Jewish culture, then yeah, why not? I'd say the same about any cultural group, including those that I belong to. Nothing wrong with difference, or acknowledging it. I thought that was what a multi-cultural society was about,

I'm not even sure the money question is a surefire way of exposing bigotry. So what if a culture is associated with professions like banking and so on? My Parsee ancestors held a similar position in India. Big deal.

Anti-Semitic Europe signalled by survey

Nearly half of those asked in a poll on anti-Semitism in Europe yesterday said Jews in their nations were different, and more than one-third said Jews should stop “playing the victim” for the Holocaust.
The poll by the Ipso research institute was conducted in nine countries, including Britain.
The poll, released on the eve of a Holocaust memorial day in many European countries, came after Jewish leaders claimed anti-Semitism was rising across the continent.
Asked if Jews in their countries had a “mentality and lifestyle” different than other citizens, 46% said yes.
About 40.5% said Jews in their country had “a particular relationship with money” and 35.7% said Jews “should stop playing the victim for the Holocaust and the persecutions of 50 years ago”.
Nearly 18% said Judaism was “intolerant” and 17% did not consider Jews compatriots.
“Obviously the virus of anti-Semitism is far more resilient and determined than we might have thought in the past,” said Rabbi David Rosen of the American Jewish Committee.
“What’s more amazing than the percentage of people who hold those opinions is the percentage of people willing to express them,” he added.
France refuted Israeli charges of rising anti-Semitism, saying attacks on Jews and Jewish property had dropped by 36% last year rather than doubled, as Israel’s minister for diaspora affairs has asserted.
The Interior Ministry reacted a day after Natan Sharansky said 47% of all anti-Semitic attacks in Europe last year occurred in France.–AP

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:35 (sixteen years ago) link

It's very tricky. Nearly 18% said Judaism was “intolerant” -- even that isn't necessarily anti-semitic; I would saw that Islam, or any faith, really, is "intolerant" too. The Holocaust point is probably more worrying -- this was a cross-Europe poll, so held in countries considerably more culpable in this respect than the UK. Many quasi-Leftists fall on this position when attacking Israel, which is a vile position to hold, lacking in sympathy -- and I'm speaking as someone who is critical of Israel.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:39 (sixteen years ago) link

I've often thought the biggest problem with the often nebulous and knee-jerk accusations of anti-semitism is that there is an extri special word for it (ie it ain't called Anti-Judaism). Islamophobic is incleasingly being brought in to mean a similar kind of thing for Islam - though certainly not as loaded. But there is no real offical word for hating Christians.

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:46 (sixteen years ago) link

It's not vile to be desperately upset with Israel's treatment of Palestinians is it, given the circumstances of the founding of Israel from a political standpoint? Admittedly, the founding of Israel on the ground kinda started to whole treatment of Palestinaians thing thing, but...

Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Hmm, the Holocaust one I'm not entirely convinced about, Enrique. Some Jewish people argue, not that it is time to forget, but time to get out of a victim-casting obsession with past persecution. Not because they are self-haters, but because they think it helps Jewish culture move on, and because in certain hands, the Holocaust issue is almost used as a trump card in all arguments, which is obviously irritating.

I accept that “Jews should stop playing the victim for the Holocaust and the persecutions of 50 years ago” is anastily-worded statement and I'm not saying I would agree with it. And yeah, maybe it's not for gentiles to say any of these things anyway.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:50 (sixteen years ago) link

It's a bit vile to say that Israel only exists because the Jews 'used' the Holocaust as leverage, which is what a lot of revisionist leftists do in their attempt to undermine Israel's legitimacy as a nation. In its less nuanced uses, this is what the Finkelstein book does. Obviousy it shouldn't be used to justify current hostilities against the Palestinians, but I can understand why it was used back in the 1940s, when the area was a British mandate-colony.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:52 (sixteen years ago) link

What we learned from the Holocaust is that it is a very wrong idea to separate people out according to religion/sexuality (remember Catholics and homosexuals also suffered there), place them in internment camps and then kill them. What we learned from apartheid is that it is wrong to separate people out by skin colour and deny them access to cities and areas and basic civil rights as if on a whim. I would suggest to Israelis of a 'pioneer' bent to learn from the Holocaust and apartheid the lesson about onetime victims relishing their turn on bully duty, and to find a way to resist.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:00 (sixteen years ago) link

i thought it said 'jews should stop "playing the violin" for the holocaust'... i wish they had worded it that way because i don't think nearly as many people would be in favour of stopping violins!

jeremy jordan (cruisy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:01 (sixteen years ago) link

Is it racist to say that a religion is intolerant? It would certianly be racist to say that Jews were intolerant.

It is not true that Judaism is intolerant, but saying it is might have all manner of motives, not necessarily racist ones. Although not excluding racist ones, either. For instance, someone might believe that Judaism is intolerant because its rituals can comes across as dogmatic and strict, such as not allowing you to use the car on a Friday. But this is not actually intolerance. To say that Judaism is intolerant implies that the religion or the culture has no sympathy for outsiders or other cultures. This is not true. Judaism, like Islam, is a religion of love and charity, which is not confined to the community but extends as far as loving the enemy.

Of course, I'm not talking about any particular state or government here, just the teachings of the religions.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:02 (sixteen years ago) link

Um, the Balfour Declaration dates back to long before the Holocaust.

Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:03 (sixteen years ago) link

How much of the fear and mistrust of Judaism comes from it being a non-evangelical religion (menkos Jews 4 Jebus notwithstanding).

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:05 (sixteen years ago) link

Um, the Balfour Declaration dates back to long before the Holocaust.

Sure it does, but the Holocaust was a major part of the ideological constellation that led to Israel being set up. As you know, the Balfour declaration was no road-map, and of course had its Nazi counterparts (ie setting up of Jewish homeland far away from Europe).

Judaism, like Islam, is a religion of love and charity, which is not confined to the community but extends as far as loving the enemy. But neither are interpreted like that, or at least they aren't so often. The problem is the conflation of race and religion -- I think Ed made me think on this. I don't think it's racist to take issue with faith -- no-one will call me racist for having a problem with Christianity's views on homosexuality, for example.


Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:10 (sixteen years ago) link

You're right, Enrique, about no-one calling you racist for taking issue with Christianity's dogma on sexuality. But what about the statement that Judaism might be about love and charity in principle but is is not interpreted like that? Do you mean actual Jews don't act out of love and charity? Or do you mean gentiles don't regard Judaism as about love and charity?

If you think that Judaism is about love and charity but Jews don't act as if it is, then that's already sounding like an attack on the race not the religion to me...

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:14 (sixteen years ago) link

Pete, that's not at the heart of it at all. The Romans/Greeks didn't really 'get' monotheism, but it's the crapness of Christianity and its prostletysing that created a great deal of anti-Semitic sentiment, what with chasing the money-lenders out of the temple yada yada and people judging ALL Jews as usurers/cash-obsessed/cleverer than. I'm pretty bloody thankful I went to school with thousands of Jews, because they had in their favour a belief in the power of learning and education being a pathway to aspirations. Their parents were the best agitators for getting stuff done for everyone in my town that I've ever experienced.

Again: all bigotry is a manifestation of the bigot's insecurity, usually unsubstantiated.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:18 (sixteen years ago) link

So, has anybody got any idea why someone would say that Judaism is intolerant? (I'm not asking if any of you are racist, I'm just wondering if anyone has any examples or good guesses about purported Judaic intolerance... And I mean the religion, not the state or Isreal or somesuch)

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:21 (sixteen years ago) link

Hmm, interesting. I suppose I was thinking that the idea of not wanting to spread "the good news", being a closed community pretty much marks you out as The Other, but certainly the other factors you point out seem a fair bit more convincing.

How has Christianity dealt with the Jesus as king of Jews thing?

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:25 (sixteen years ago) link

Dave, you've already said it's intolerant of several things (like allowing you to use the car on a Friday). You also explained why this doesn't mean the same as 'intolerant' to you. I understand that, but 'intolerant' means different things to different people.

Perhaps the main point of this thread was that I hate ambiguously worded questionnaires, esp. if they're deliberately so.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:26 (sixteen years ago) link

because people conflate judaism with the state of isreal?

Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:30 (sixteen years ago) link

Or with 'all Jewish people'.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:33 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't mean that it doesn't mean intolerant to me, I mean it is not what intolerant means. Intolerance is an unwillingness to endure differing opinions. Religious Law is not intolerant of those who break religious law. Laws are not opinions, so flouting the law is not a differing opinion either.

If you are a Jew, you do not drive etc on the Sabbath. This is a ritual by which you live a religious life. It is the code by which you get closer to god. That is not intolerant. Judaism would be intolerant if it forbid non-Jews to drive etc on the Sabbath.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:34 (sixteen years ago) link

good point, what about forcible removal of non-jews and 'pioneer' settling though?

Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:35 (sixteen years ago) link

That's Isreal, not Judaism

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:37 (sixteen years ago) link

Is a state intolerant for forbidding someone to open his business, or restricting his hours of busines by law on the Sabbath no matter what his religion?

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:37 (sixteen years ago) link

in·tol·er·ant    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (n-tlr-nt)
adj.

Not tolerant, especially:
a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.
c. Unable or unwilling to endure or support: intolerant of interruptions; a community intolerant of crime.


I'd say a) is pretty different to b)

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:38 (sixteen years ago) link

That's Isreal, not Judaism
-- run it off (davebeec...), January 27th, 2004 1:37 PM.


because people conflate judaism with the state of isreal?
-- Stringent Stepper (stringen...), January 27th, 2004 1:30 PM.

there you go mate

Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:39 (sixteen years ago) link

the State may well be intolerant if it restricted business hours for citizens who don't share the law of the Sabbath, but the religion isn't intolerant because the state does this.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:40 (sixteen years ago) link

So, if the problem is the conflation of the state and the religion, does that mean it is racist to say that Judaism is intolerant instead of saying that Isreal is intolerant?

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:41 (sixteen years ago) link

not racist, I mean anti-semitic...

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:41 (sixteen years ago) link

Huzzah, The UK is intolerant (no shock there....)

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:42 (sixteen years ago) link

Well, a lot of places in London settled by Jews had Sunday trading by dint of being closed on Saturday for Sabbath: see Brick Lane/Whitechapel, Golders Green/Hampstead.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:44 (sixteen years ago) link

the religion isn't intolerant because the state does this

I don't know enough about the tenets of Judaism to go into it, but by analogy -- it *is* intolerant if it sanctions the law, surely?

Judaism != Jews, maybe, run it off? It's clumsy, but race and religion are not the same. So it isn't racist to criticize a faith? I doin't know.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:46 (sixteen years ago) link

Religious Law is not intolerant of those who break religious law.

Surely religious las IS intolerant of people who break it. I'm guessing there must be punishments for transgression, even if it's just an evil look during church - and that kind of emotional punishment can be extremely effective/painful, especially in close-knit communities and ones where the people have a God's good will yo lose.



Laws are not opinions, so flouting the law is not a differing opinion either.
If you are a Jew, you do not drive etc on the Sabbath. This is a ritual by which you live a religious life. It is the code by which you get closer to god. That is not intolerant. Judaism would be intolerant if it forbid non-Jews to drive etc on the Sabbath.

-- run it off (davebeec...), January 27th, 2004.

Laws are opinions, they're (usually(should be!)) the opinion of the majority as to how individuals should behave.

Also, not being allowed to drive on a Sunday (or Saturday) IS intolerant: intolerant toward Jews. I think most religions are least tolerant of their own.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:52 (sixteen years ago) link

Laws are opinions, they're (usually(should be!)) the opinion of the majority as to how individuals should behave.

That's a bit of a shallow view of jurisprudence.

Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:55 (sixteen years ago) link

jurisprudence = ideological screen for repressive state apparatus

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:00 (sixteen years ago) link

how could a religion as old as the hills sanction a state as young as Isreal? Still less the acts of the leaders of such a state.

The ideological screen idea is itself an ideological screen.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:34 (sixteen years ago) link

Ideologies don't screen. They are productive not obstructive. Eagleton at one point uses the example of the phrase "the Prince of Wales is a nice chap". This is ideological because it produces a certain effect (support for the Royals as people) not because it hides the real social relations (Royals are social leeches, or etc). The fact that it makes no mention of politics, economics, and so on does not mean that it is a screen any more than a black and white photo can be said to be a screen against colour.

As such, juridprudence is not an ideological screen; it is ideological. That doesn't mean it is no different from other ideas or opinions. Opinions that are ratified and authorised are not opinions in the same way as opinions that are not.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:41 (sixteen years ago) link

Sorry -- it was just my little joke. Nonetheless, I think it's interestingly provocative to call laws 'opinions'.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:46 (sixteen years ago) link

yes, I agree.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:02 (sixteen years ago) link

Hey, we Jews are barely tolerant of each other, let alone the rest of you.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:12 (sixteen years ago) link

Enough with the kvetching!

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:41 (sixteen years ago) link

kvetching - one of my favourites. A friend calls her young baby a kvetch box

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:47 (sixteen years ago) link

Every time you moan you have to put a coin in the kvetch box.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:55 (sixteen years ago) link

[all babies are young, aren't they... doh!]

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:59 (sixteen years ago) link

Laws are opinions, they're (usually(should be!)) the opinion of the majority as to how individuals should behave.
That's a bit of a shallow view of jurisprudence.

-- Ricardo (boyofbadger...), January 27th, 2004.

Jurisprudence is the philosophy of law isn't it? Isn't what I've said what that all boils down too?

Where _is_ the depth?
It's simple isn't it?

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:00 (sixteen years ago) link

Can you explain how it all boils down to opinion?

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:01 (sixteen years ago) link

Hey, we Jews are barely tolerant of each other, let alone the rest of you.
-- Chuck Tatum (sappy_papp...), January 27th, 2004.

See! Told you!

And more kvetchup please!

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:01 (sixteen years ago) link

Laws (attempt to) make people behave in the ways other people _think_ they should behave.

How humans should behave is a matter of opinion. Different religions, for example, havie differing opinions.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:02 (sixteen years ago) link

Sorry -- it was just my little joke. Nonetheless, I think it's interestingly provocative to call laws 'opinions'.
-- Enrique (miltonpinsk...), January 27th, 2004.

To clarify, laws themselves aren't exactly opinions, but what they attempt to enshrine as 'right' and 'wrong' ARE opinions.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:05 (sixteen years ago) link

I might break the law even though I agree with it generally, but I may also break the law because I have a different opinion as to what is 'rihgt' and what is 'wrong'.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:06 (sixteen years ago) link

who are these other people? Don't the laws apply to the people who write them? (Seriously)

If laws are backed by the state (and, after all, that's what makes them laws, rather than guidelines or codes or something else) then they are not just opinions, they are sanctified, ordered, institutionalied, backed up by the criminal justice system etc. I'm not saying power and hierarchy and stuff aren't involved -- of course they are -- but laws don't get to be laws without going through a socially sanctioned process.

The case of breaking the law because you have a different opinion (civil disobedience etc) does not mean that the law is treated as opinion it means that laws are seen as arbitrary and changeble, so that collective action can bring about social changes that force laws to change.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:07 (sixteen years ago) link

Reminds me of that famous slogan about the holocaust, "this was a wild aberration that will surely never happen again."

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:11 (one week ago) link

I don't think Jews are pushing an educational agenda to whitewash slavery... that's the whole part of this that reeks of anti-Semitic, conspiracist thinking that I specifically am against!

But I do think that it is demonstrable that many schoolchildren learn more about the Holocaust than they do about the genocide of Indigenous people and chattel slavery, not to mention continued colonial venturings in Africa.

All of it should be taught. As should the continued anti-Semitism that runs rampant in the US today.

blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:12 (one week ago) link

Left, yeah, a different word would certainly be better.

blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:13 (one week ago) link

As would a different world.

blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:13 (one week ago) link

philosemitic or antisemitic forms (not mutually exclusive)

"philosemitism" is clearly itself antisemitism as it has nothing to do with actually loving/supporting/allying with the Jewish people

all cats are beautiful (silby), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:14 (one week ago) link

It's a real thing where?

― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, July 30, 2020 6:08 PM (two minutes ago)

I don't know how you'd go about proving this, but ime the Holocaust has definitely been treated like a unique, or nearly so, event. I don't think that's a particularly controversial claim?

^that was an xpost...point taken about the fear of it being repeated, but rarely do I see people cite, say, the British empire inflicting multiple famines on India or King Leopold's actions in the Congo as precedents, let alone anything the USA ever did

rob, Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:17 (one week ago) link

NB to the best of my knowledge the prominence of holocaust remembrance was in part the work of Jews of the subsequent generation seeking to mourn and honor the memories of relatives they never knew, sometimes against the wishes of the survivor generation, for whom silence was strongly preferred. If genocide in Congo, India, the Americas, then and now, get short shrift in our collective memory I doubt it's because the Holocaust is taking up all the space.

all cats are beautiful (silby), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:21 (one week ago) link

Idk, maybe I have a skewed perception of this. I worked for years at an educational foundation for holocaust curriculum, and a central point of that curriculum was centering the holocaust and anti-Semitism alongside the history of slavery and racism in the US and elsewhere. Perhaps that is an unusual approach to teaching the holocaust, I always assumed it was pretty typical.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:24 (one week ago) link

silby, we actually agree then! There's room to teach all of the horrible shit.

blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:25 (one week ago) link

"philosemitism" is clearly itself antisemitism as it has nothing to do with actually loving/supporting/allying with the Jewish people

yeah, I agree that the Christian right's fetishization of Judaism is not philosemitism, but we shouldn't be thinking of philosemitism as something positive; it implies othering as much as antisemitism does.

Lily Dale, Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:26 (one week ago) link

if anything I don't really buy that the Holocaust gets all the attention at this particular moment when Black movements in the US are more visible and influential than any prior point in my life, and Never Again Action is out there working against ICE

all cats are beautiful (silby), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:27 (one week ago) link

i was pretty shocked to see the numbers here particularly re millennials https://www.newsweek.com/one-third-americans-dont-believe-6-million-jews-were-murdered-during-holocaust-883513

(not asking if it's anti-semitic)

― Mordy, Wednesday, January 23, 2019 4:47 PM (one year ago)

pomenitul, Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:28 (one week ago) link

british context:

Why is genocidal antisemite Winston Churchill celebrated as an antifascist hero?
Why does Hitler’s badness automatically become Britain’s greatness?
Why does no one seem to want to know what Britain actually did to make itself so great?
Why do the most publically identified antisemites always seem to be Black, Muslim and/or perceived traitors to empire?
Why do many people only seem to care about antisemitism in the above context?
Why does the UK left dislike Israel so much more than it dislikes Britain?
etc

the education described above does sound atypical in this context

the state is bad (Left), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:30 (one week ago) link

If genocide in Congo, India, the Americas, then and now, get short shrift in our collective memory I doubt it's because the Holocaust is taking up all the space.

― all cats are beautiful (silby), Thursday, July 30, 2020 6:21 PM (six minutes ago)

I just want to be absolutely clear that I agree with this!

An obvious problem with this discussion is we're all reflecting on our own personal experiences of learning history in a range of formal and informal ways. Even in formal education there could be significant differences regionally or over time.

rob, Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:33 (one week ago) link

The argument isn't about attention, it's about what is taught in schools. Per Rob's point above, it seems pretty obvious to me that among the main reasons the Holocaust is taught more to school children is that the genocide and its aftermath allow for a more rosy vision of the USAmerican project to emerge, whereas teaching chattel slavery and its legacies as well as Indigenous genocide and its legacies implicates the USAmerican project in two ongoing historical acts that are also deeply despicable and tragic.

blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:36 (one week ago) link

I've taught Indigenous history and lit classes to students, and let me tell you, none of them know a damn thing about any of it.

blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:37 (one week ago) link

Why do the most publically identified antisemites always seem to be Black, Muslim and/or perceived traitors to empire?

Well, Wiley is a Member of the Order of the British Empire after all.

Sonny Shamrock (Tom D.), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:37 (one week ago) link

I still don't get where schools in the US are teaching about the holocaust more than about slavery. Is this a known fact or more of a vague feeling?

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:39 (one week ago) link

The very idea that a historical atrocity so vile as the Holocaust could ever "take up too much attention or time" with regards to classroom education and activism compared to other historical instances of racial genocide that it shares some surface level similarities with is.... antisemitic, or at least very problematic IMO. The fact that we still have celebrities brazenly spewing the kind of unacceptable shit like Wiley/Nick Cannon did every week/month/year, while a depressingly large % of the US population is still misinformed or uneducated about the realities of it as evidenced by stuff like that newsweek article shows that, if anything there is still not enough time or at least proper detail and context devoted to it when it comes to how we educate our people about it growing up. The perceived lack of attention devoted to colonial and indigenous genocide in schools by some ppl in this thread doesn't and shouldn't change that; it's not a competition.

Sabre of Paradise (trevor phillips), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:43 (one week ago) link

I'd also like to point out, I'm well aware of an effort to whitewash slavery in US history textbooks. What I'm more skeptical about is that the people making this happen are doing so by replacing it with a really awesome unit in the holocaust.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:46 (one week ago) link

from 2018:

Two-thirds of American millennials surveyed in a recent poll cannot identify what Auschwitz is, according to a study released on Holocaust Remembrance Day that found that knowledge of the genocide that killed 6 million Jews during World War II is not robust among American adults.

Twenty-two percent of millennials in the poll said they haven’t heard of the Holocaust or are not sure whether they’ve heard of it — twice the percentage of U.S. adults as a whole who said the same.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 30 July 2020 22:59 (one week ago) link

“a historical atrocity so vile”
“other historical instances”
“some surface level similarities”
“perceived lack of attention”
who’s making it a competition?

the point isn’t about the holocaust taking up space it’s about, among other things, the civilisation that perpetrated the holocaust disavowing it by portraying it as outside of history altogether, an atrocity caused by nothing, except maybe free floating hatred and madness. what does this serve?

the state is bad (Left), Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:16 (one week ago) link

I'm sorry, I find the idea that the holocaust is generally taught as some contextless blob to be utterly perplexing and pretty much unbelievable.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:30 (one week ago) link

Especially if we are saying that holocaust studies are stealing oxygen from other valuable tooics.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:32 (one week ago) link

*topics

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:32 (one week ago) link

Adorno said poetry after Auschwitz was barbaric and so poets the world over just gave up their trade overnight. He also hated jazz. What an asshole.

pomenitul, Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:34 (one week ago) link

I wonder how much of this is about schools getting worse in general, curriculum that emphasizes learning to do well on tests as opposed to learning that imparts lessons of history rather than facts that are forgotten as soon as the next unit starts, and the general weakening of the educational system.

I’m probably biased by the current era where many states, with direction from the federal government, are basically making homeschooling and private schooling (especially religious private schooling) enticing options through inconsistent and nonexistent funding.

I have no idea what the hell is going on with the 22% of millennials who have never heard of the Holocaust. I tried to find the original survey questions but only found a summarized version of the results that lacked the questions.

solo scampito (mh), Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:39 (one week ago) link

Like I said upthread, 12% of Austrians aged 18-34 have never heard of it either. Austrians.

pomenitul, Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:41 (one week ago) link

I’m willing, if horrified, to believe that’s true but I still wonder what the heck the methodology of this survey was

solo scampito (mh), Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:42 (one week ago) link

It's absolutely likely that kids are getting shitty educations about the holocaust, slavery, genocide of indigenous people, the whole enchilada. The thing I strongly doubt is that kids are getting way too much education about the holocaust, and that that education still manages to be completely unmoored from a historical context or learning about oppression and genocide in general.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:44 (one week ago) link

in the 00s I was taught barely anything about the holocaust and nothing at all about any other genocide

the state is bad (Left), Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:49 (one week ago) link

The 12% was in reference to a 2018 poll, but a study from last year appears to bear out the same disturbing degree of ignorance:

https://www.dw.com/en/austrians-lack-crucial-holocaust-awareness-study-finds/a-48564260

xps

pomenitul, Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:55 (one week ago) link

I was taught about the Holocaust throughout my elementary and middle school years, including reading 'Night' in 8th grade. High school got more into slavery and its afterlives, but nothing about Indigenous people. And while I went to public school until 8th grade, the private high school I went to was a Quaker school with a relatively robust social justice quotient in all courses.

And our study of slavery, Reconstruction, and Jim Crow was very much 'that was in the past, also Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were bad and MLK was good.'

blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:56 (one week ago) link

Also worth noting that Austria is currently governed by a coalition between the so-called 'centre-right' and a party founded by an ex-SS-Brigadeführer who also happened to be a member of the Nazi Reichstag.

pomenitul, Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:57 (one week ago) link

are all of these polls commissioned by the same organization?

solo scampito (mh), Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:57 (one week ago) link

First one (2018) was for CNN, second one (2019) for the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany (Claims Conference).

pomenitul, Thursday, 30 July 2020 23:59 (one week ago) link

Polls of adults frequently in the uk have repeatedly shown double-figures not being able to name the current prime minister

Temporary Erogenous Zone (jim in vancouver), Friday, 31 July 2020 00:02 (one week ago) link

Presumably they could name the UK's current president.

pomenitul, Friday, 31 July 2020 00:05 (one week ago) link

I want to clarify that this is me being aghast at these numbers and my skepticism of polls without the original questions and I’m stepping away before I turn into internet detective that accidentally disproves anti-semitism because I sure as hell see enough of it around me that I would not want to give that impression

solo scampito (mh), Friday, 31 July 2020 00:05 (one week ago) link

I assume the questions were fairly straightforward, e.g.

87% of respondents said they had definitely heard or seen the word Holocaust

(Also called 'Holocaust' in German btw.)

pomenitul, Friday, 31 July 2020 00:08 (one week ago) link

Jews should just simpley have walked out

Yup. Every.Word. - having instigated the walk out though as a tiny protest was amazed at how massive it grew. They should have all walked out of Europe on mass 1939. X

— Tracy-Ann Oberman (@TracyAnnO) August 8, 2020

glumdalclitch, Sunday, 9 August 2020 13:28 (yesterday) link

Richard Spencer agrees

Your original display name will be displayed in brackets (Left), Sunday, 9 August 2020 13:45 (yesterday) link

Was talking with a friend about vampires. The most sure-fire defenses against vampires are crosses and holy water. As a Jewish kid I thought that was really unfair, since I lacked both, and then "Fright Night" comes along and throws in the notion that you may have a cross but it takes *faith* to work. Factor in decades of blood libel tropes and 'bloodsucker" defamation and ... are vampires an anti-semitic construct?

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 9 August 2020 13:57 (yesterday) link

People don’t take antisemitism seriously because they think of Jews as wealthy, and therefore not vulnerable, which is like saying black people shouldn’t be scared of racists because they’re all so athletic.

Wow Freeman just seems so...not smart.

nashwan, Sunday, 9 August 2020 13:57 (yesterday) link

Freeman is really into anti black racism like all white liberals (and all white transphobes it seems)

xp yes to some extent

ditto a lot of satanic/devil related imagery

Your original display name will be displayed in brackets (Left), Sunday, 9 August 2020 14:03 (yesterday) link

I'm sure Polanski had a Jewish vampire in "The Fearless Vampire Killers" for a reason.

Young Boys of Bernie (Tom D.), Sunday, 9 August 2020 14:09 (yesterday) link

Torchwood’s finest with the ‘on mass’ there. Fucking idiot.

santa clause four (suzy), Sunday, 9 August 2020 14:20 (yesterday) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7xnIzutKm8

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 9 August 2020 15:18 (yesterday) link


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