Is this anti-semitism?

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I saw this headline and expected to read on and be saddened by the knock-on effects of recent anti-American and anti-Israeli feeling. But on examining it, I don't think I think much of the questions in the survey, or rather the interpretation being put on them.

Nearly 18% said Judaism was “intolerant” and 17% did not consider Jews compatriots.. Sure, that's anti-semitism pure and simple.

Asked if Jews in their countries had a “mentality and lifestyle” different than other citizens, 46% said yes.

Is this? Not all Jewish people, no. But if they choose to participate in Jewish culture, then yeah, why not? I'd say the same about any cultural group, including those that I belong to. Nothing wrong with difference, or acknowledging it. I thought that was what a multi-cultural society was about,

I'm not even sure the money question is a surefire way of exposing bigotry. So what if a culture is associated with professions like banking and so on? My Parsee ancestors held a similar position in India. Big deal.

Anti-Semitic Europe signalled by survey

Nearly half of those asked in a poll on anti-Semitism in Europe yesterday said Jews in their nations were different, and more than one-third said Jews should stop “playing the victim” for the Holocaust.
The poll by the Ipso research institute was conducted in nine countries, including Britain.
The poll, released on the eve of a Holocaust memorial day in many European countries, came after Jewish leaders claimed anti-Semitism was rising across the continent.
Asked if Jews in their countries had a “mentality and lifestyle” different than other citizens, 46% said yes.
About 40.5% said Jews in their country had “a particular relationship with money” and 35.7% said Jews “should stop playing the victim for the Holocaust and the persecutions of 50 years ago”.
Nearly 18% said Judaism was “intolerant” and 17% did not consider Jews compatriots.
“Obviously the virus of anti-Semitism is far more resilient and determined than we might have thought in the past,” said Rabbi David Rosen of the American Jewish Committee.
“What’s more amazing than the percentage of people who hold those opinions is the percentage of people willing to express them,” he added.
France refuted Israeli charges of rising anti-Semitism, saying attacks on Jews and Jewish property had dropped by 36% last year rather than doubled, as Israel’s minister for diaspora affairs has asserted.
The Interior Ministry reacted a day after Natan Sharansky said 47% of all anti-Semitic attacks in Europe last year occurred in France.–AP

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:35 (twenty years ago) link

It's very tricky. Nearly 18% said Judaism was “intolerant” -- even that isn't necessarily anti-semitic; I would saw that Islam, or any faith, really, is "intolerant" too. The Holocaust point is probably more worrying -- this was a cross-Europe poll, so held in countries considerably more culpable in this respect than the UK. Many quasi-Leftists fall on this position when attacking Israel, which is a vile position to hold, lacking in sympathy -- and I'm speaking as someone who is critical of Israel.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:39 (twenty years ago) link

I've often thought the biggest problem with the often nebulous and knee-jerk accusations of anti-semitism is that there is an extri special word for it (ie it ain't called Anti-Judaism). Islamophobic is incleasingly being brought in to mean a similar kind of thing for Islam - though certainly not as loaded. But there is no real offical word for hating Christians.

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:46 (twenty years ago) link

It's not vile to be desperately upset with Israel's treatment of Palestinians is it, given the circumstances of the founding of Israel from a political standpoint? Admittedly, the founding of Israel on the ground kinda started to whole treatment of Palestinaians thing thing, but...

Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:48 (twenty years ago) link

Hmm, the Holocaust one I'm not entirely convinced about, Enrique. Some Jewish people argue, not that it is time to forget, but time to get out of a victim-casting obsession with past persecution. Not because they are self-haters, but because they think it helps Jewish culture move on, and because in certain hands, the Holocaust issue is almost used as a trump card in all arguments, which is obviously irritating.

I accept that “Jews should stop playing the victim for the Holocaust and the persecutions of 50 years ago” is anastily-worded statement and I'm not saying I would agree with it. And yeah, maybe it's not for gentiles to say any of these things anyway.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:50 (twenty years ago) link

It's a bit vile to say that Israel only exists because the Jews 'used' the Holocaust as leverage, which is what a lot of revisionist leftists do in their attempt to undermine Israel's legitimacy as a nation. In its less nuanced uses, this is what the Finkelstein book does. Obviousy it shouldn't be used to justify current hostilities against the Palestinians, but I can understand why it was used back in the 1940s, when the area was a British mandate-colony.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 12:52 (twenty years ago) link

What we learned from the Holocaust is that it is a very wrong idea to separate people out according to religion/sexuality (remember Catholics and homosexuals also suffered there), place them in internment camps and then kill them. What we learned from apartheid is that it is wrong to separate people out by skin colour and deny them access to cities and areas and basic civil rights as if on a whim. I would suggest to Israelis of a 'pioneer' bent to learn from the Holocaust and apartheid the lesson about onetime victims relishing their turn on bully duty, and to find a way to resist.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:00 (twenty years ago) link

i thought it said 'jews should stop "playing the violin" for the holocaust'... i wish they had worded it that way because i don't think nearly as many people would be in favour of stopping violins!

jeremy jordan (cruisy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:01 (twenty years ago) link

Is it racist to say that a religion is intolerant? It would certianly be racist to say that Jews were intolerant.

It is not true that Judaism is intolerant, but saying it is might have all manner of motives, not necessarily racist ones. Although not excluding racist ones, either. For instance, someone might believe that Judaism is intolerant because its rituals can comes across as dogmatic and strict, such as not allowing you to use the car on a Friday. But this is not actually intolerance. To say that Judaism is intolerant implies that the religion or the culture has no sympathy for outsiders or other cultures. This is not true. Judaism, like Islam, is a religion of love and charity, which is not confined to the community but extends as far as loving the enemy.

Of course, I'm not talking about any particular state or government here, just the teachings of the religions.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:02 (twenty years ago) link

Um, the Balfour Declaration dates back to long before the Holocaust.

Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:03 (twenty years ago) link

How much of the fear and mistrust of Judaism comes from it being a non-evangelical religion (menkos Jews 4 Jebus notwithstanding).

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:05 (twenty years ago) link

Um, the Balfour Declaration dates back to long before the Holocaust.

Sure it does, but the Holocaust was a major part of the ideological constellation that led to Israel being set up. As you know, the Balfour declaration was no road-map, and of course had its Nazi counterparts (ie setting up of Jewish homeland far away from Europe).

Judaism, like Islam, is a religion of love and charity, which is not confined to the community but extends as far as loving the enemy. But neither are interpreted like that, or at least they aren't so often. The problem is the conflation of race and religion -- I think Ed made me think on this. I don't think it's racist to take issue with faith -- no-one will call me racist for having a problem with Christianity's views on homosexuality, for example.


Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:10 (twenty years ago) link

You're right, Enrique, about no-one calling you racist for taking issue with Christianity's dogma on sexuality. But what about the statement that Judaism might be about love and charity in principle but is is not interpreted like that? Do you mean actual Jews don't act out of love and charity? Or do you mean gentiles don't regard Judaism as about love and charity?

If you think that Judaism is about love and charity but Jews don't act as if it is, then that's already sounding like an attack on the race not the religion to me...

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:14 (twenty years ago) link

Pete, that's not at the heart of it at all. The Romans/Greeks didn't really 'get' monotheism, but it's the crapness of Christianity and its prostletysing that created a great deal of anti-Semitic sentiment, what with chasing the money-lenders out of the temple yada yada and people judging ALL Jews as usurers/cash-obsessed/cleverer than. I'm pretty bloody thankful I went to school with thousands of Jews, because they had in their favour a belief in the power of learning and education being a pathway to aspirations. Their parents were the best agitators for getting stuff done for everyone in my town that I've ever experienced.

Again: all bigotry is a manifestation of the bigot's insecurity, usually unsubstantiated.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:18 (twenty years ago) link

So, has anybody got any idea why someone would say that Judaism is intolerant? (I'm not asking if any of you are racist, I'm just wondering if anyone has any examples or good guesses about purported Judaic intolerance... And I mean the religion, not the state or Isreal or somesuch)

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:21 (twenty years ago) link

Hmm, interesting. I suppose I was thinking that the idea of not wanting to spread "the good news", being a closed community pretty much marks you out as The Other, but certainly the other factors you point out seem a fair bit more convincing.

How has Christianity dealt with the Jesus as king of Jews thing?

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:25 (twenty years ago) link

Dave, you've already said it's intolerant of several things (like allowing you to use the car on a Friday). You also explained why this doesn't mean the same as 'intolerant' to you. I understand that, but 'intolerant' means different things to different people.

Perhaps the main point of this thread was that I hate ambiguously worded questionnaires, esp. if they're deliberately so.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:26 (twenty years ago) link

because people conflate judaism with the state of isreal?

Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:30 (twenty years ago) link

Or with 'all Jewish people'.

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:33 (twenty years ago) link

I don't mean that it doesn't mean intolerant to me, I mean it is not what intolerant means. Intolerance is an unwillingness to endure differing opinions. Religious Law is not intolerant of those who break religious law. Laws are not opinions, so flouting the law is not a differing opinion either.

If you are a Jew, you do not drive etc on the Sabbath. This is a ritual by which you live a religious life. It is the code by which you get closer to god. That is not intolerant. Judaism would be intolerant if it forbid non-Jews to drive etc on the Sabbath.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:34 (twenty years ago) link

good point, what about forcible removal of non-jews and 'pioneer' settling though?

Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:35 (twenty years ago) link

That's Isreal, not Judaism

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:37 (twenty years ago) link

Is a state intolerant for forbidding someone to open his business, or restricting his hours of busines by law on the Sabbath no matter what his religion?

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:37 (twenty years ago) link

in·tol·er·ant    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (n-tlr-nt)
adj.

Not tolerant, especially:
a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.
c. Unable or unwilling to endure or support: intolerant of interruptions; a community intolerant of crime.


I'd say a) is pretty different to b)

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:38 (twenty years ago) link

That's Isreal, not Judaism
-- run it off (davebeec...), January 27th, 2004 1:37 PM.


because people conflate judaism with the state of isreal?
-- Stringent Stepper (stringen...), January 27th, 2004 1:30 PM.

there you go mate

Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:39 (twenty years ago) link

the State may well be intolerant if it restricted business hours for citizens who don't share the law of the Sabbath, but the religion isn't intolerant because the state does this.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:40 (twenty years ago) link

So, if the problem is the conflation of the state and the religion, does that mean it is racist to say that Judaism is intolerant instead of saying that Isreal is intolerant?

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:41 (twenty years ago) link

not racist, I mean anti-semitic...

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:41 (twenty years ago) link

Huzzah, The UK is intolerant (no shock there....)

Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:42 (twenty years ago) link

Well, a lot of places in London settled by Jews had Sunday trading by dint of being closed on Saturday for Sabbath: see Brick Lane/Whitechapel, Golders Green/Hampstead.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:44 (twenty years ago) link

the religion isn't intolerant because the state does this

I don't know enough about the tenets of Judaism to go into it, but by analogy -- it *is* intolerant if it sanctions the law, surely?

Judaism != Jews, maybe, run it off? It's clumsy, but race and religion are not the same. So it isn't racist to criticize a faith? I doin't know.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:46 (twenty years ago) link

Religious Law is not intolerant of those who break religious law.

Surely religious las IS intolerant of people who break it. I'm guessing there must be punishments for transgression, even if it's just an evil look during church - and that kind of emotional punishment can be extremely effective/painful, especially in close-knit communities and ones where the people have a God's good will yo lose.



Laws are not opinions, so flouting the law is not a differing opinion either.
If you are a Jew, you do not drive etc on the Sabbath. This is a ritual by which you live a religious life. It is the code by which you get closer to god. That is not intolerant. Judaism would be intolerant if it forbid non-Jews to drive etc on the Sabbath.

-- run it off (davebeec...), January 27th, 2004.

Laws are opinions, they're (usually(should be!)) the opinion of the majority as to how individuals should behave.

Also, not being allowed to drive on a Sunday (or Saturday) IS intolerant: intolerant toward Jews. I think most religions are least tolerant of their own.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:52 (twenty years ago) link

Laws are opinions, they're (usually(should be!)) the opinion of the majority as to how individuals should behave.

That's a bit of a shallow view of jurisprudence.

Ricardo (RickyT), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 13:55 (twenty years ago) link

jurisprudence = ideological screen for repressive state apparatus

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:00 (twenty years ago) link

how could a religion as old as the hills sanction a state as young as Isreal? Still less the acts of the leaders of such a state.

The ideological screen idea is itself an ideological screen.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:34 (twenty years ago) link

Ideologies don't screen. They are productive not obstructive. Eagleton at one point uses the example of the phrase "the Prince of Wales is a nice chap". This is ideological because it produces a certain effect (support for the Royals as people) not because it hides the real social relations (Royals are social leeches, or etc). The fact that it makes no mention of politics, economics, and so on does not mean that it is a screen any more than a black and white photo can be said to be a screen against colour.

As such, juridprudence is not an ideological screen; it is ideological. That doesn't mean it is no different from other ideas or opinions. Opinions that are ratified and authorised are not opinions in the same way as opinions that are not.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:41 (twenty years ago) link

Sorry -- it was just my little joke. Nonetheless, I think it's interestingly provocative to call laws 'opinions'.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 14:46 (twenty years ago) link

yes, I agree.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:02 (twenty years ago) link

Hey, we Jews are barely tolerant of each other, let alone the rest of you.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:12 (twenty years ago) link

Enough with the kvetching!

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:41 (twenty years ago) link

kvetching - one of my favourites. A friend calls her young baby a kvetch box

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:47 (twenty years ago) link

Every time you moan you have to put a coin in the kvetch box.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:55 (twenty years ago) link

[all babies are young, aren't they... doh!]

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 15:59 (twenty years ago) link

Laws are opinions, they're (usually(should be!)) the opinion of the majority as to how individuals should behave.
That's a bit of a shallow view of jurisprudence.

-- Ricardo (boyofbadger...), January 27th, 2004.

Jurisprudence is the philosophy of law isn't it? Isn't what I've said what that all boils down too?

Where _is_ the depth?
It's simple isn't it?

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:00 (twenty years ago) link

Can you explain how it all boils down to opinion?

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:01 (twenty years ago) link

Hey, we Jews are barely tolerant of each other, let alone the rest of you.
-- Chuck Tatum (sappy_papp...), January 27th, 2004.

See! Told you!

And more kvetchup please!

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:01 (twenty years ago) link

Laws (attempt to) make people behave in the ways other people _think_ they should behave.

How humans should behave is a matter of opinion. Different religions, for example, havie differing opinions.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:02 (twenty years ago) link

Sorry -- it was just my little joke. Nonetheless, I think it's interestingly provocative to call laws 'opinions'.
-- Enrique (miltonpinsk...), January 27th, 2004.

To clarify, laws themselves aren't exactly opinions, but what they attempt to enshrine as 'right' and 'wrong' ARE opinions.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:05 (twenty years ago) link

I might break the law even though I agree with it generally, but I may also break the law because I have a different opinion as to what is 'rihgt' and what is 'wrong'.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:06 (twenty years ago) link

who are these other people? Don't the laws apply to the people who write them? (Seriously)

If laws are backed by the state (and, after all, that's what makes them laws, rather than guidelines or codes or something else) then they are not just opinions, they are sanctified, ordered, institutionalied, backed up by the criminal justice system etc. I'm not saying power and hierarchy and stuff aren't involved -- of course they are -- but laws don't get to be laws without going through a socially sanctioned process.

The case of breaking the law because you have a different opinion (civil disobedience etc) does not mean that the law is treated as opinion it means that laws are seen as arbitrary and changeble, so that collective action can bring about social changes that force laws to change.

run it off (run it off), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 18:07 (twenty years ago) link

https://x.com/RachelJessWolff/status/1719901617305084373?s=20

Apologies for reposting a fed soccer, but is there any reason someone like this shouldn't be "canceled" (also a good callback to the discussion of the overlap between 'the z-word' and just outright antisemitism)

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 2 November 2023 15:38 (four months ago) link

like is it unreasonable to say that this person should not be in a student-facing job in the school of foreign service at Georgetown?

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 2 November 2023 15:39 (four months ago) link

It is sometimes astonishing to me what people who want to have academic careers feel comfortable posting publicly.

Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Thursday, 2 November 2023 15:44 (four months ago) link

her tweets are from 2015....as I found out from this interesting database:

https://canarymission.org/individual/Aneesa_Johnson

here is seemingly every student in America who ever supported BDS:

https://canarymission.org/students

Anyway I'm not shedding any tears for that anti-semite getting fired, but am I wrong to find this campaign creepy as hell?

symsymsym, Thursday, 2 November 2023 15:49 (four months ago) link

no

out-of-print LaserDisc edition (sleeve), Thursday, 2 November 2023 15:50 (four months ago) link

how do you respond to these things - you're asked to condemn something which is unambiguously bad (those tweets) or sometimes more ambiguous but in the former case it seems easy and necessary to condemn - but what agenda does your condemnation serve? or is that even relevant when it should be condemned regardless? but are you helping them pursue a sort of ethnic cleansing in the intellectual sphere by doing so, given that the will and resources to censure this stuff just aren't there for equivalently racist things about (eg) arabs or muslims?

Left, Thursday, 2 November 2023 16:05 (four months ago) link

From boycotts to firebombs, Israel-Gaza war brings wave of antisemitism

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/01/israel-gaza-jews-antisemitism/

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 2 November 2023 16:12 (four months ago) link

It's so weird to me, time and time again, why there seems to be this need to compare hatred of Jewish people to hatred of Muslims. Both are real and both should be condemned.

Left, serious question- do you have a personal connection here? Is this something that is deeply conditioned where you are from?

felicity, Thursday, 2 November 2023 16:13 (four months ago) link

And sorry, I should have said Muslim people. I was tracking Left's post.

felicity, Thursday, 2 November 2023 16:14 (four months ago) link

given that the will and resources to censure this stuff just aren't there for equivalently racist things about (eg) arabs or muslims?

― Left, Thursday, 2 November 2023 16:05 (nine minutes ago) link

I mean frankly, why wouldn't there be? I would obviously support removing people from jobs who are openly islamophobic and work with muslim students. Why aren't there "resources" for this sort of thing? That seems like a weird assumption to make.

And why is that an excuse to allow antisemitic professors or college administrators to keep their jobs?

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 2 November 2023 16:17 (four months ago) link

what do you think of this site? https://canarymission.org/students

symsymsym, Thursday, 2 November 2023 16:22 (four months ago) link

"zionist jews" now trending on twitter, that's that shit i don't like

is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Thursday, 2 November 2023 16:34 (four months ago) link

I think that phrase is always trending on twitter these days.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 2 November 2023 16:48 (four months ago) link

people who have publicly posted really disgusting stuff like that should not be surprised that they will face repurcusssions. those statements from A. Johnson are unacceptable and no she should not have that job. wtf I can't even believe that's a point of discussion. I'd say the same if someone said that about any group of people.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:05 (four months ago) link

Left's post is incoherent to me.

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:07 (four months ago) link

OK

why wouldn't there be?

because there pretty obviously aren't but whatever this is the wrong thread

do you have a personal connection here? Is this something that is deeply conditioned where you are from?

no / sort of / it's complicated

but I take it for granted that my opinions and the ways I express them would be different if my background and experiences were different

Left, Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:20 (four months ago) link

if people want to extrapolate an argument in defence of this person from my post I guess they can but that's weird

Left, Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:29 (four months ago) link

what do you think of this site? https://canarymission.org/students

― symsymsym, Thursday, 2 November 2023 16:22 (one hour ago) link

Seems gross, but there's a difference between just random students vs people who work directly in a student-facing job, such as professors, instructors, etc.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:42 (four months ago) link

I think she was a student when she posted that stuff.

Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:44 (four months ago) link

man alive, are you saying that supporters of BDS shouldn’t have student-facing positions?

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:52 (four months ago) link

fuck off, you know that's not what I'm saying

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:52 (four months ago) link

i was honestly confused!

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:53 (four months ago) link

I think the problem is that these cancel campaigns are lumping together actual anti-semitism with any public opposition to the govt of Israel. It's good for people who express public anti-semitism to face consequences, but it's part of an active campaign to chill dissent.

symsymsym, Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:53 (four months ago) link

it was clear to me that that's not what man alive was saying just ftr

symsymsym, Thursday, 2 November 2023 17:57 (four months ago) link

Yeah agreed.

I think students who are calling for a ceasefire or who are opposed to Israeli policies with regards to the Palestinian people are far, far different from those who are actively anti-semitic. And I think the person who is cited upthread definitely falls into the latter category. I just think it's a distraction to gather up anyone and everyone and lump them into the same category, it's a false equivalency and a waste of time. And I'm guessing the vast majority of those people are not remotely anti-semitic.

omar little, Thursday, 2 November 2023 18:01 (four months ago) link

It wasn’t to me, which is why I asked. I appreciate man alive’s perspectives, even if I sometimes disagree with them, fwiw, and am frankly a little shocked at the reaction.

butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 2 November 2023 18:04 (four months ago) link

tbf the conversation got on a bit of a weird tangent - man alive's original complaint was about blatant anti-semitism but then for some reason he was asked to clarify his position on that insane doxxing site

c u (crüt), Thursday, 2 November 2023 18:36 (four months ago) link

I interpreted it as the insane doxxing site is why this example of blatant antisemitism is being highlighted rn (?)

Left, Thursday, 2 November 2023 18:48 (four months ago) link

the doxxing site was the first google hit for that person's name, which I just thought was weird.

The follow up tweet by the Federalist Society president that man alive posted includes a slick graphic of the racist tweets(also created by the doxxing site) which to me seems excessive for 8-year-old racist tweets by someone nobody has ever heard of:

Shameful @georgetownsfs @Georgetown @georgetownmsfs @joelhellman_SFS pic.twitter.com/M7MZ6Z0SDf

— Rachel Jessica Wolff🇮🇱 (@RachelJessWolff) November 2, 2023

symsymsym, Thursday, 2 November 2023 21:12 (four months ago) link

please nobody misconstrue my posts as a defence of the obviously horrible and anti-semitic tweets

symsymsym, Thursday, 2 November 2023 21:14 (four months ago) link

I don't think anyone is viewing your posts as a defense of that tweet.

Bringing the discussion to the ethics of "doxxing" of people who make hateful posts and tweets on public social media platforms is sort of a topic in itself. In a context where people are already saying there is too much conflation of Israel with Jewish people in general, bringing attention back to this particular doxxing site is perhaps adding to the conflation. I don't know, just a thought.

As far as it being an old tweet or from 2015 or college student days, aren't these kind of social media posts being revived in other contexts for "reasons" other than to do with anti-semitism or chilling political discussion? I am thinking of the instance of the Teen Vogue editor who resigned and apologized because of posts made in high school. I think it's difficult to try to make bright line rules here.

Anyway, it's a hateful tweet, and there were consequences. Becoming ultra-focused on the "fairness" of such consequences and the methods - maybe that's a bigger discussion. Isn't it fairly easy to not to make these kinds of tweets? The problem is that the tweet existed at all, not that someone saw it.

felicity, Thursday, 2 November 2023 21:33 (four months ago) link

I once saw a comedian joke that having to go back several years to find an offensive tweet or post is proof that the person in question clearly learned their lesson and should be praised for their good behavior.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 2 November 2023 22:06 (four months ago) link

anvil which conspiracy theories did Hasan Piker endorse?

and

Ok, I have a mate who's a big Hasan fan and if dude was spreading any misinformation I'd want to flag that up for him.

Probably not the thread for it, but I wanted to come back to this as I remembered that he referred to the Crimea referendum results as 'supposedly rigged', and also pushed the story that Boris Johnson (as mouthpiece of US) ordered Ukraine not to negotiate.

I realize this is nothing to do with anti-semitism or Palestine but remembered these and thought I should answer anyway. There were a couple of other dubious things but wouldn't necessarily classify them as coming under the above umbrella

anvil, Friday, 3 November 2023 10:44 (four months ago) link

"supposedly" as in disputing the disputedness of the 2014 referendum (there's a weird double negative thing here)

anvil, Friday, 3 November 2023 10:48 (four months ago) link

Having reflected on it, I’m not even sure that person should lose their job based on those tweets alone, if they regret them. But maybe it would be good to have them get some kind of training about historical antisemitism, the kinds of imagery and slurs and theories used, etc?

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 3 November 2023 12:49 (four months ago) link

They already seem well versed in it

Muad'Doob (Moodles), Friday, 3 November 2023 13:07 (four months ago) link

Someone apparently spraypainted a jewish star on the bakery in my town, which is Jewish-owned and kosher. It's one of only two businesses in town that would really read as Jewish. I'm not at the point where I feel concerned for safety or anything but it is surprising to have it happen here. Town has a significant Jewish population - mostly liberal and reform or unaffiliated.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 3 November 2023 14:25 (four months ago) link

that's really messed up

symsymsym, Friday, 3 November 2023 15:09 (four months ago) link

Having reflected on it, I’m not even sure that person should lose their job based on those tweets alone, if they regret them. But maybe it would be good to have them get some kind of training about historical antisemitism, the kinds of imagery and slurs and theories used, etc?

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, November 3, 2023 5:49 AM (two hours ago)

don't think there's any public evidence of her disavowing or apologizing for those tweets, but I agree that sincere regret would make a big difference. Ilhan Omar is someone who used anti-semitic tropes in tweets before she was in congress, and did the work of understanding and explaining the problem with the language she used.

absent any regret from A. Johnson, I am OK with her losing her job. My concern is that she'll be the victim of a campaign of harassment and death threats because of her old tweets being un-earthed in this current climate.

symsymsym, Friday, 3 November 2023 15:19 (four months ago) link

As with most cases, I would rather that if she lost her job it was because the students she had dealings with were upset about the tweets, rather than some outside group directing a campaign to get her fired.

Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Friday, 3 November 2023 15:24 (four months ago) link

I think it was both.

There's an article where she recaps the incident, apparently without remorse.

https://dailynorthwestern.com/2023/03/02/featured-stories/in-focus/community-members-say-northwestern-is-neither-a-safe-nor-free-space-for-conversations-about-palestine-and-israel/

Agree, an apology and acknowledgement can lead to moving on. Don't think she needs to be banned from all jobs. But when the job is some sort of role model for college students, hard to see how to stop perpetuating cycles of hatred otherwise.

felicity, Friday, 3 November 2023 16:31 (four months ago) link

Aneesa Johnson (Communication ʼ18), said the University’s reactions to individual students expressing their views has hindered open conversation.

Johnson, who is Palestinian, said that while at NU, she was reported to the University for bias and hate after she posted tweets criticizing Zionism.

kinda buries the actual anti-semitism doesn't it

omar little, Friday, 3 November 2023 16:34 (four months ago) link

Yes

felicity, Friday, 3 November 2023 16:37 (four months ago) link

my wife's uncle (recently retired) was a Northwestern professor who survived the holocaust and i'm glad he probably never had her as a student.

omar little, Friday, 3 November 2023 16:41 (four months ago) link

that's an interesting article, thanks for sharing it.

Johnson, who is Palestinian, said that while at NU, she was reported to the University for bias and hate after she posted tweets criticizing Zionism.

lol come on now

The article happens to go into detail about the effects of the doxxing site:

Several students who are critical of Israel also consistently identified Canary Mission as making it more difficult for them to speak out. Canary Mission is an anonymous online blacklist that compiles public dossiers of student activists and organizations it deems to be anti-Israel or antisemitic.

According to reports from media outlets The Forward and The Times of Israel, the Israeli government has used Canary Mission’s blacklist to deny visitors entry at its borders.

“Canary Mission is literally the thing that stops me the most when speaking up,” Ava said.

Ava is stateless — her family grew up in Palestinian refugee camps — and she hopes to someday attain U.S. citizenship. She said she worries being blacklisted on Canary Mission would make it more difficult for her to get a job and, eventually, U.S. citizenship.

As a result of this fear, Ava said she never joined SJP during her time at NU. George said many Palestinian students he knows have avoided becoming involved with SJP for this same reason.

Charles*, a Palestinian American student, said he’s been having conversations with his family for at least 10 years about precautions to avoid being blacklisted on Canary Mission.

“If it’s out there and attached to my name that I’m critical of the Israeli government,” he said, “that can be preventative to me being able to go back to where my people are from, and where I have family and connecting (with) what I consider my homeland.”

I really hate this persecution taking place in the name of fighting anti-semitism

symsymsym, Friday, 3 November 2023 16:42 (four months ago) link

xps!

symsymsym, Friday, 3 November 2023 16:42 (four months ago) link

Yes antisemitism and other hate amd microaggressions wrapped up in the First Amendment is a blurry line that many lawyers spent their whole careers trying to delineate. Usually it's passive aggressive subtle dogwhistling but these overt examples are on the rise.

More consequences:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/business/law-firms-antisemitism-universities/index.html

The law firms' letter's definition of antisemitism includes

Over the last several weeks, we have been alarmed at reports of anti-Semitic harassment, vandalism and assaults on college campuses, including rallies calling for the death of Jews and the elimination of the State of Israel.

felicity, Friday, 3 November 2023 16:54 (four months ago) link

I saw the video of the two people eating bagels in Montclair NJ that had just removed one of the posters from a wall, and were being asked why they had taken it down. Its unfortunate that the person asking them is basically harassing them so its not a surprise they don't want to answer.

I feel like this kind of thing would be better approached in the way the 1420 guy does in Russia when asking about the SMO and related topics.

I did feel these two maybe weren't really able to explain their rationale, but I think there's something else going on underneath that isn't anti-semitism, but it could become so. I think sometimes we think of these things as inherent, when often its something that can develop

anvil, Monday, 6 November 2023 06:40 (three months ago) link

At the same time, as with the above two it may also be a form of group dynamics and not necessarily something thought out or explainable, and that these dynamics can continue even when not in the group situation

anvil, Monday, 6 November 2023 06:42 (three months ago) link

New thread:

Anti-semitism thread: onwards from 2023

hamish, Monday, 6 November 2023 10:18 (three months ago) link


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