The official thread for Lord Of The Rings - The Return Of The King [LOTR ROTK TROTK ROK] (NOW CONTAINS SPOILERS)

Shouldn't "Gandalf" = "Sarumon" here?

There were ewoks in Matrix Revolutions, I'm sure of it.

x-post ha ha that woulda been the greatest thing ever

[The] Saruman thing you describe is a muddle of half-truths.

We have decided to save the Saruman sequence for the DVD. It's a great little scene. 7 mins long. Chris is wonderful, as usual. Brad is in about 6 shots. It was a film maker decision - nothing to do with the studio.

The problem is that the sequence was originally shot for The Two Towers, as it is in the book. Since The Two Towers couldn't sustain a 7 min "wrap" after Helm's Deep, we thought it would be a good idea to save it for the beginning of the Return of the King. The trouble is, when we viewed various ROTK cuts over the last few weeks, it feels like the first scenes are wrapping last year's movie, instead of starting the new one. We felt it got ROTK off to an uncertain beginning, since Saruman plays no role in the events of ROTK (we don't have the Scouring later, as the book does), yet we dwell in Isengard for quite a long time before our new story kicks off.

We reluctantly made the decision to save this sequence for the DVD. The choice was made on the basis that most people will assume that Saruman was vanquished by the Helm's Deep events, and Ent attack. We can now crack straight into setting up the narrative tension of ROTK, which features Sauron as the villian.

It was a very similar situation to last year when we decided to take a nice Boromir/Denethor flashback out of The Two Towers, and put it in the DVD. It was causing us pacing problems in the theatrical version, but with the Extended Cut just coming out now, fans can see this great little scene. Thank God for DVD, since it does mean that a version of the movie, which has different pacing requirements, can be released later. The Saruman sequence will definately be a highlight of the Extended ROTK DVD.

We have a lot of great DVD material this time around. As we crafted the movie, we reduced it from an over 4 hour running time, down to 3.12 (without credits - about 8 mins long). This was done by us. There were no studio cutting notes. We now have a movie with a pace that fells ok for it's theatrical release. One more week to go. We are nearly there. Will we still be standing? It's going to be a close run thing.

Cheers,

Peter J

It doesn't break the film as theatrically released and it shouldn't cause a worry even with the extended TT. Lee himself seems to have been taken offguard, so that was handled poorly, but beyond that I'm utterly unfazed.

He is very prone to exaggeration and playing up tenous connections to celebrities, so I never believe something that is published on aicn until it is independently confirmed on some other site.

Nothing about the explanation [with El Diablo's caveat in mind, though it's now been some days and no denial has been issued] as provided strikes me as an impossible thought to make, especially given the differences between theatrical and DVD releases so far with the other two films. To be utterly honest, given the scope of the story, I was hoping they would get away from Orthanc as quickly as possible anyway -- there's still a lot of material to get through. About the only thing that doesn't work, as someone on AICN noted, was how Aragorn et al get hold of the palantir now.

that said, I gotta say I'm really looking forward to this movie.

Spencer, I loved FOTR in the theater, LOVED the expanded edition of FOTR (with mild exception to the ubertwee Concerning Hobbits chapter), liked T2T in the theater and hoped to increase on that with the expanded release.

I wonder if T2T set will come with a free ticket to ROTK like the first set did (which I bought for $25.99+tax, that combined with movies in SF = $9-10 makes that 4xDVD set quite a value).

it's Saruman, actually.

http://www.ortadunya.com/dbimage/client/gollum.gif

AND THE RIIIIIIIIING GOES DOOOOOOWWWWWWN TO MOR-OR-ORDOR

AND THE RIIIIIIIIING GOES DOOOOOOWWWWWWN TO MOR-OR-ORDOR

Nickalicious I love you.

I'd never heard of it before this story came up, anyone read it?

20 years!

We had thoughts on the podcast!

https://www.megaphonic.fm/bythebywater/57

(Settle it, it's about two hours long...)

Settle in rather, but you could settle it too.

im watching them again- some extended for the first time- an hour a week with neighbours

surprisingly they are now separate enough in my mind again from the books that the sharpness of my irritation with some of the decisions has eased-

Healthy approach, that.

my amazing idea: a sequel series featuring hobbits trying to escape from revived sauron's revived nazgul but this time they're after that giant ass key that unlocked mordor.

doing our yearly watch of these, and my kid has been consulting this excellent atlas by Karen Wynn Fonstad which he's found totally fascinating and helpful. anyway, going thru ROTK and some of the flaws are more evident, but they're hardly an issue for me since it's such a strong, epic finish. but the thing i perhaps newly noticed is some of the slight disconnect between settings within the final battle (maybe it's a result of this being the extended cut and some awkwardness remains?), Gandalf and Pippin running around and being waylaid by the Witch-King, who then flies off to see what's up just before the Rohirrim charge. And the absolutely game-changing epic charge is never acknowledged from within the walls, even as just a confidence boost to the troops in Minas Tirith. it might as well be happening in another battle entirely. there's a bit of editing awkwardness around Eowyn after she slays the Witch-King, her crawling around looking for Merry and chased by that Orc chieftain, then bidding adieu to Theoden, then being found unconscious by Eomer. It's certain things that just ever so slightly undercut the final stretch of the battle, plus the fearsomeness of the dead army being undercut by the comical way in which they're depicted effortlessly dispatching the remaining legions of Mordor. but it's not crippling, i think just as much as the Rohan aspect of The Two Towers made it a really rich film, the Rohan storyline concluding on this field of battle is what absolutely makes it succeed. The storylines for Theoden and Eowyn are so truly well done, even if i really do wish they had preserved Tolkien's absolutely heartstopping dialogue in the latter's moment of heroism, perhaps shifting around slightly for more maximum cinematic impact...

'Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!'

A cold voice answered: 'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

A sword rang as it was drawn. 'Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.'

'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed.... 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'

thou fool

whomst is the fool now foul dwimmerlaik

this is the dialogue in the film

EOWYN: I will kill you if you touch him.

WITCH-KING: Do not come between
the Nazgul and his prey.

(break for army of the dead showing up at the river w/Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli)

WITCH-KING: You fool.
No man can kill me.
Die now.

EOWYN: I am no man.

considering how well they preserved much of the excellent dialogue in other areas, it's disappointing they didn't do the same here. that's a moment that deserved a bit more buildup and genuine fear and would have resulted in a better payoff (again, it would have to be altered slightly bc one couldn't hide Eowyn's identity without creating some type of secondary character as a red herring, but that would take up a lot of time.)

That scene in the animated Return of the King (1980) is more faithful to the book, including using that dialogue. It seemed so heavy on top of the death of Theoden when I first saw it as a kid age 8 or 9.

i just watched that scene for the first time last night, it was a bit less fearful maybe due to the Witch-King sounding more like Cobra Commander crossed with the Knights Who Say "Ni", but Eowyn as depicted in that was thoroughly unshakable.

Yeah the Rankin-Bass films are…uneven but have moments.

The Fonstad atlas has been a standby for me for four decades now.

Yeah, I should have added that it was not as heavy watching it now at 51 but I was terrified of the witch-king as a kid. He had a crown without a head! Terryifying!

"I AM NO MAN" works as a more iconic moment than the wordy banter imo

thou fool!

'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'

See, at this point he's just asking to get utterly hindered.

I think I just wanted her to say "foul dwimmerlaik" and WK to get in some threats about the lidless eye and the house of pain. "I am no man" works vv well though and really vv few complaints about what was done beyond feeling it could have been drawn out a bit. if Denethor can have a doomy brooding emo monologue en route to the murder/suicide pyre they could have given WK a couple more choice lines to chill the bone. However every time I watch it, it never ceases to be a wholly thrilling sequence (from the charge to Theoden's passing). And I always forget that there's still an hour and a half remaining from the moment Gandalf walks across the battlefield, surveying the horror left behind.

Needless to say we've talked about this film (and the Rankin-Basses) on the podcast. Another thing that Rankin-Bass does that Jackson didn't was have the proper faceoff between the Lord of the Nazgul and Gandalf at the ruined gate right before the Rohirrim arrive -- the Jackson version was in the extended cut and didn't have anywhere as much impact as the book, due to changing when and where it happened.

I think also the impact of that moment in the Jackson film is a bit lessened for me when you stop to think and wonder where the witch-king went between going to see what was up with that horn and finally showing up on the battlefield. Far be it for me to question his military strategy but idk pal, maybe don't take the long way around Minas Tirith.

He had to call HQ for tips. (Don't ask me how. I might be lying.)

"I AM NO MAN" works as a more iconic moment than the wordy banter imo

― assert (matttkkkk), Monday, 10 June 2024 01:17 (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

its up there with the girlboss sequence in the avengers fingersnapemoji fingersnapemoji

i think it might be on cringe par if Galadriel and a revitalized Arwen had materialized behind Eowyn, with Rosie from the Shire striding in from another direction and maybe the rediscovered Ent-Wives popping up carrying boulders.

I AM NO MAN. I AM IRONMAN!
snaps fingers

"I AM NO MAN" works as a more iconic moment than the wordy banter imo

― assert (matttkkkk), Sunday, June 9, 2024 9:17 PM

otm

Needless to say we've talked about this film (and the Rankin-Basses) on the podcast. Another thing that Rankin-Bass does that Jackson didn't was have the proper faceoff between the Lord of the Nazgul and Gandalf at the ruined gate right before the Rohirrim arrive -- the Jackson version was in the extended cut and didn't have anywhere as much impact as the book, due to changing when and where it happened.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, June 9, 2024

It made sense to cut it given how it's directed. The Witch King is about to strike, the horns blow, and he turns around and goes, "Uh, brb, I left the oven on" and flies away.

and due to his lack of intervention w/the Rohan charge, that's apparently what he went off to do.

the wordy banter could have really worked, if directed and staged well. just to return some supernatural menace to the Nazgul. and you could have still ended on the same verbal coup de grâce from Eowyn. but it's all good, she took down that Witch-King hard, damn.

My preferred version is the one in Tolkien's third manuscript, reprinted in one of the oversized folio editions, but I admit it might work better on the page than on the screen:

'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed.... 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'

The winged creature screamed at her, but then the Ringwraith was silent, as if in sudden doubt. Eowyn, daughter of Théodwyn, had torn him open. His guts had fallen out.

He was naked to the Lidless Eye, and his terror was extreme.

Hell yeah

even the lord of the Nazgul sometimes must have to stand naked