A Thread about the film JFK

the look in sutherland's eyes when costner stammers lamely about how he can't believe this reminds me of when ahab says that "the dead blind wall butts all inquiring heads at last".)

Yeah, Stone lets the camera linger on Sutherland after the "The truth is on your side, bubba," as if he stared into Costner's soul and realized he wasn't up for the challenge, hence reaffirming the instinct to call him "bubba."

my read of this movie these days is essentially apolitical: above all it's about piercing the veil.

It's a Pynchon adaptation.

It went unstated in this thread but I assume this revive was inspired by the Chapo episode on the subject?

lol I didn't know anyone here listened to Chapo?

wow dlh that was a good post

Fucking Fight Club sounds great! and probly would to most of the JFK characters

https://media.giphy.com/media/1ZyKIJcJy3Xhe/giphy.gif

I don't mean to imply that they're gay or that they have conspired to commit any capital offense. Just that they are more than well-versed in classics and history and seem to be having a very good time indeed.

― forksdippedmayo (how's life), Wednesday, June 22, 2016 7:01 PM (three years ago) bookmarkflaglink

maybe they were just doing a read-through of an early draft of "The Favourite" there

dlh's post gets at a lot of it, i think though the film was deadly serious business for a lot of people at the time, since the theory was put forth with such boldness on the visual surface (which painted over the dialogue asides indicating it was all theoretical, cf "let's just for a moment speculate..." etc) that it seemed to be as good an explanation as any as to how JFK was killed and why.

i think it rang true for a lot of folks because the black ops stuff was and is an undeniable part of American history, w/so much of the CIA activities (being used as smoke to indicate the conspiracy theory fire) having been true to a large extent. the image of the noble mission of America being ripped away to reveal something darker beneath, and by 1991 the darkness was something people were readily willing to believe.

i also seem to remember it just being one of many JFK assassination artifacts floating around the popular culture at the time but i'm struggling to remember what the others were. it felt like a partic pulpy contribution to a larger conversation

the commentary track, as you or someone noted years ago, is rife with examples of Stone's verbal shrugging ("Well, this wasn't true, but it's nice to think so...).

there were a pair of vv high profile books published around that time, Mark Lane's Plausible Denial and of course Jim Marrs' Crossfire, which Stone used as a source for the screenplay.

It went unstated in this thread but I assume this revive was inspired by the Chapo episode on the subject? And tbh their read seemed pretty correct to me: tons of scenery-chewing performances from an all-star cast, compulsively watchable, successfully points out a lot about what was weird about the circumstances of the assassination, while also being totally compromised by hysterical homophobia and an absurdly idealized conception of JFK and his intentions re: Vietnam

― Simon H., Tuesday, September 10, 2019 12:49 AM (eight hours ago)

my gf was listening to the chapo ep on saturday while getting ready for work and we decided to watch it that night so yeah

i think it rang true for a lot of folks because the black ops stuff was and is an undeniable part of American history, w/so much of the CIA activities (being used as smoke to indicate the conspiracy theory fire) having been true to a large extent. the image of the noble mission of America being ripped away to reveal something darker beneath, and by 1991 the darkness was something people were readily willing to believe.

― omar little, Tuesday, September 10, 2019 3:49 PM (three hours ago)

i think one of the unintended effects of the oliver stone movie is that it made this subject basically a joke to most ppl in a way that it wasn't before. like if you go back and read old book reviews, associated press stories, etc., from the 1970s and 1980s, oswald is generally referred to as the "accused assassin" and there's a general acknowledgement that the whole thing feels pretty fishy even if no one really wants to commit to a specific scenario. iirc the ny times even gave a more or less positive review to jim garrison's book. post-"jfk" there's a major backlash which culminates in the widespread praise for gerald posner's "case closed" (not a very good book imo) for supposedly clearing up the whole business. this sorta explains to me why the coverage of trump's "i'm gonna release the files!" stunt a while back was so confused, with most ppl torn between the impulse to make fun of it and the inescapable suspicion that something crazy might turn up after all.

As a guy whose knowledge (and interest) in the assassination doesn't extend beyond this film, Libra, and Harlot's Ghost, was there any truth to the assertion that Oswald, Guy Bannister, and Clay Bertrand/Shaw were seen together in N'Awlins?

i keep meaning to get round to reading libra

alfred u should read the other mailer book oswald's tale

The premise of Libra is probably the closest to being the “truth”, IMO

Great read on the movie, DLH

It went unstated in this thread but I assume this revive was inspired by the Chapo episode on the subject? And tbh their read seemed pretty correct to me: tons of scenery-chewing performances from an all-star cast, compulsively watchable, successfully points out a lot about what was weird about the circumstances of the assassination, while also being totally compromised by hysterical homophobia and an absurdly idealized conception of JFK and his intentions re: Vietnam

― Simon H., Tuesday, September 10, 2019 12:49 AM (eight hours ago)

That ep was a total delight. The Dry Boys were really in their element.

will in partic was quoting with a promiscuity and joy worthy of this thread

As a guy whose knowledge (and interest) in the assassination doesn't extend beyond this film, Libra, and Harlot's Ghost, was there any truth to the assertion that Oswald, Guy Bannister, and Clay Bertrand/Shaw were seen together in N'Awlins?

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, September 10, 2019 7:30 PM (one hour ago)

iirc anthony summers' book "not in your lifetime" pretty much confirms it and some of the other stories -- oswald working for wacko right-winger guy banister, etc.

oh right, you mentioned banister in your post, duh

ooh Summers! He wrote one of the better Nixon bnios.

*bios

i think one of the unintended effects of the oliver stone movie is that it made this subject basically a joke to most ppl in a way that it wasn't before. like if you go back and read old book reviews, associated press stories, etc., from the 1970s and 1980s, oswald is generally referred to as the "accused assassin" and there's a general acknowledgement that the whole thing feels pretty fishy even if no one really wants to commit to a specific scenario. iirc the ny times even gave a more or less positive review to jim garrison's book. post-"jfk" there's a major backlash which culminates in the widespread praise for gerald posner's "case closed" (not a very good book imo) for supposedly clearing up the whole business. this sorta explains to me why the coverage of trump's "i'm gonna release the files!" stunt a while back was so confused, with most ppl torn between the impulse to make fun of it and the inescapable suspicion that something crazy might turn up after all.

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 10 September 2019 19:27 (two hours ago) link

That is an interesting shift. It’s funny to say but JFK might be one of the last truly subversive films released by a major studio, just in terms of how much it riled up the media/political class. It was too bold and impeccably crafted to ignore, even if the quotably purple dialogue and Stone’s “feverish” (sniff sniff) earnestness made it ripe for parody.

Imagine any movie having that kind of impact now. I mean, we still have dumb pearl-clutching moral panics about studio product, but it’s all focused on the most inane manufactured micro-targeted culture war BS.

JFK’s version of events might be uh, “off”, but it got at something genuine that is becoming more apparent as time goes on. Whether it’s because of Russia or Epstein or just paying attention, *everybody* is a conspiracy theorist to some degree now.

def going to read that Summers’ Jfk - loved his “Arrogance of Power”

yep!

i tore through a bunch of jfk-related books a few years ago and summers' was probably the most balanced and convincing one. and yeah, nixon book is solid!

Vincent Bugliosi wrote a massive "Oswald acted alone" book that came out in 2007; never read it myself, plus suspect Bugliosi went a bit nutty in later years

I want to recommend the 2012 book A Cruel and Shocking Act by Philip Shenon. It’s an account of the inner workings of the Warren Commission based on interviews with some of the the surviving people involved. It’s a perspective I haven’t really seen chronicled in depth elsewhere.

It also goes into how the investigation was hampered by the CIA’s withholding of crucial information that later came to light, i.e. the thwarted attempts to assassinate Castro, and their knowledge of Oswald’s movements and associations.

Also good on that front is Jefferson Morley’s book The Ghost: The Secret Life of CIA Spymaster James Jesus Angleton, about the famously paranoid head of the CIA’s counter-intelligence division. Angleton started a special file on Oswald as soon he defected to the USSR and continued monitoring his associations and tracking his movements right up until November 22, 1963. Apparently access to the file was used as part of Angleton’s attempts to ferret out suspected moles within the agency.

There’s also a lot to suggest that during his time in Mexico City Oswald was used (probably unwittingly) as a pawn in some kind of spy game between the Cuban embassy and the CIA. If he was inspired or encouraged to assassinate JFK during this time (as Shenon believes he was, by pro-Castro Cubans) and the CIA knew and did nothing...well, you can see how explosive that information would be.

never read it myself, plus suspect Bugliosi went a bit nutty in later years

Bugliosi is mostly nuts throughout his entire life... Tom O'Neil's recent Manson book gets into the details.

There’s also a lot to suggest that during his time in Mexico City Oswald was used (probably unwittingly) as a pawn in some kind of spy game between the Cuban embassy and the CIA. If he was inspired or encouraged to assassinate JFK during this time (as Shenon believes he was, by pro-Castro Cubans) and the CIA knew and did nothing...well, you can see how explosive that information would be.

The Morley book is great - recommend reading it next if folks have already read one of the books name-checked on the thread. My interpretation is that when Oswald was in Mexico City, telling everyone who would bother to listen that he was going to kill JFK, the CIA's reaction was "huh. we don't care - you'll be doing us a favor. In fact, let's take a photo of some other guy going into the embassy and claim it's Oswald - just to f. things up."

They were a wise bunch of birds!

― omar little, Tuesday, April 30, 2019

the story about oswald being (supposedly) impersonated in mexico city before the assassination -- a photo of a guy who looked nothing like him, a recording of a different guy's voice -- is pretty wild.

According to his Marine buddies, he got Maggie's drawers. That means he wasn't any good.

Pipe the bimbo in red. Mm-mm.

If I answer that question you keep asking...if I give you the name of the big enchilada...then it's bon voyage, Deano. Like a bullet in my head, you dig? You're a mouse fighting a gorilla. Kennedy's as dead as that crabmeat. The government's still breathing. You want to line up with a dead man?

Stop eatin' that crab meat and listen!

i like the visual, comparing Kennedy to dead crab meat.

this movie was probably as much fun to make as Wet Hot American Summer (which could have been a working title based on the southern sweat in this)

I didn't pay two bits for a target, just to have someone else shoot it!

no honest working man can afford to buy a car in this goddam country anymore. maybe i'll have to go to RUSSIA. to buy a car.

really duuuum dye-log

Still unsure if Americans in the 20th Century ever used to say "two bits."

At the time of the shooting, there seemed to be some commotion. I'm just unable to describe...a flash of light or smoke or something, which caused me to feel that something out of the ordinary had occurred on the embankment.

GODDAMN

NO

oswald was no ordinary soldier! he was-- he was probably military intelligence, that's why he was trained in russian. it's no accident. he was IN RUSSIA.

go back to sleep!

Ah've been sleepin' for three years, Liz!

we should perform this as an ILX cast stage play.

i tore through a bunch of jfk-related books a few years ago and summers' was probably the most balanced and convincing one.

btw thanks j.d. (again), bought and read this in a gluttonous ~30hrs after this post. highly recommended, feels as comprehensive as anything i've read and yeah it is v carefully not trying to convince you of anything, which is probably why came out of it finally believing in a second shooter lol

had previously always been an "oswald acted alone and the govt covered up because a real investigation would have revealed too much about the intelligence services, both wrt oswald and more broadly" guy but have felt myself moving to "mobsters instigated a hit via a mafia architecture that in places had become indistinguishable from the intelligence services (and the govt covered up because etc)"

oswald really does act for a long time just like someone in something like cointelpro might act but i am still loath to reduce (inflate?) him to a conscious employee because i am infatuated w a read of him where he considers himself always the protagonist and always a step ahead of whomever he is telling whatever or doing whatever for. for me the beautiful idea is that I'M A PATSY is a moment of real-time realization not (or not just) that he has been set up by [santo trafficante/e howard hunt/fidel castro/allan dulles/lyndon johnson/marx's ghost] but more spookily that here on the other side of a finally achieved ambition to become an immortal mover of history he has suddenly realized he cannot stop also being something's agent. that this figurative existential discovery-- a standard part of life imo-- is naturally superimposed over what may have been a literal and v specific discovery-- "i'm in the cold war and i lost track of who's paying me"-- is why oswald/jfk remains the penultimate in "o no the hall of mirrors of the psyche" spy stories: above tinker, below hamlet.

I just got Summers' book from the library!

I just placed a hold on it at my library!

also just got JFK from the library since I hadn't seen it in several years (or should i say, "yee-ahhs")

haha what have i wrought?? (you're welcome guys)