A Thread about the film JFK

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Joe Pesci in a horrible wig screaming that it's a riddle wrapped inside a mystery wrapped inside an enigma then noting that all he ever wanted to be was a Catholic priest. Kevin Bacon as a gay prostitute who declares that "fascism is coming back!" Is that a brillo pad on Tommy Lee Jones's head? Donald Sutherland imitating the micromachine man from galoob. Kevin Costner announcing that he's ashamed to be an american. Kevin talking to a black woman for two seconds to reaffirm his character is a good man (classy, Stone!). Sissy Spacek is mad at him for ignoring the children until he announces that Bobby's been shot, which inspires sex and devotion in her. The man at the firing range wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald, it was FRANK WHALEY!!! Ed Asner beats the shit out of Jack Lemmon. Operation Mongoose is led by the cuban-gay mafia, with help from U.S. Generals. Back and to the left...back and to the left. DO NOT FORGET YOUR DYING KING. WHAT IS PAST IS PROLOGUE.

Is painfully innaccurate bullshit hollywood cameo crazy stereotypical racist messianic horseshit ok as long as it's VIBRANT, intense horseshit? As long as John Candy plays a sweaty jive-talker who thinks that Costner is as crazy as his mamma, goes to show its in the genes?

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:10 (sixteen years ago) link

Yes, it is! I love this movie! Donald Sutherland's scene is so amazing (though I wish they did it without cutaways)... who else could carry a 25-minute monologue? (All about that voice.) It's a great thriller.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:16 (sixteen years ago) link

great movie. and indeed sutherland is majestic in that monologue

ryan (ryan), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:20 (sixteen years ago) link

It could all be made-up shroom-hallucination-derived nonsense for all I care.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:21 (sixteen years ago) link

I will admit I loved the film in middle school. I find it really hard to get over the manipulativeness of it (I know manipulation isn't bad per se, I AM a DePalma fan, but Stone's use of it to fuck with history bothers me BIG TIME). That said when me and a friend rented Ruby we were so bored that we put in JFK after about ten minutes. If I'm gonna watch some red-head psychotic plan the death of the greatest president Oliver Stone ever knew, I'm gonna watch Joe Pesci play him, goddamnit.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:23 (sixteen years ago) link

And Brian Doyle-Murray as Jack Ruby!!!! Way better than Danny Aiello.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:24 (sixteen years ago) link

I actually first saw this movie earlier this year! Weirdly enough.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:28 (sixteen years ago) link

crazy! and you call yourself a Stone apologist! I saw it in the theaters and me and my friend were bursting with liberal conspiracy theory fervor afterwards. Though even then I was annoyed by Stone's cliched wife-doesn't-understand-I'm-saving-the-world bullshit.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:29 (sixteen years ago) link

The funny thing is a couple nights later I was a little st*ned and I was talking to a friend of mine a mile-a-minute and I got on the JFK thing and I had to stop myself because I was acting like such a cliche. I still can't believe I actually did that.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:33 (sixteen years ago) link

I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again (only to get yelled at for it): I love the editing. I don't mean the fast cuts so much as the sheer crazy techniques within that speed that he really didn't start off on until JFK and The Doors. And jeah, fuck the inaccuracies - it's a great MOVIE, and if you just go into it knowing that it's horrible history but wonderful cinema - what a rush! Also one of the few films, as mentioned above, that makes a good argument for a big and extremely famous ensemble cast (with a large proportion of them playing against type, no less).

And the Rooker! How can you forget Michael Rooker?

...

I seriously need to stop raving about all this before I stain my pants.

Girolamo Savonarola, Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:45 (sixteen years ago) link

I seriously need to stop raving about all this before I stain my pants.

Never stopped Stone!

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 01:52 (sixteen years ago) link

i once had a strange theory that JFK was Stone's Hamlet and that Nixon was Macbeth - i think i got it from an interview or something

ryan (ryan), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 03:16 (sixteen years ago) link

I think I could make a post here that was just "slutsky's OTM about X, Girolamo's OTM about Y..." Sutherland makes the movie, for one thing. It's sort of borderline for me; there are a lot of scenes that don't hold up as well to multiple viewings as other parts, so it's not something I'll watch the entirety of when it's on HBO or whatever. But the good parts are a lot of fun.

And Stone was up front (eventually, maybe? I don't remember if he said this all along) about the history being fucked; "it's a myth, yeah, but it's a myth to counter the equally-false one we've been handed by the gov't," sentiments to that effect. Hell, I'd like to see more intentionally-fucked history in movies, without it being played for laughs; there could be a lot of material there.

As for the ensemble cast thing: anything else about the movie aside, has the "huge cast of famous people" thing been done better than in this? Altman's good with that, but I don't know if he ever did it quite this well, especially if you don't count Short Cuts.

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 03:30 (sixteen years ago) link

It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 04:08 (sixteen years ago) link

"Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left..."

Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 04:38 (sixteen years ago) link

Clearly Stone needs to remake It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World!

(Okay, I forgot about that one. I'd have to see it again, though.)

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 04:45 (sixteen years ago) link

JFK is wonderfully messed up as a movie, but isn't all that great as a JFK assassination movie. I seem to recall that one of Apocalypse Culture volumes had a list of the subliminal scenes in the movie.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 05:03 (sixteen years ago) link

What's great as a JFK assassination movie? Winter Kills?

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 05:05 (sixteen years ago) link

Norma Jean and Marilyn

Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 05:06 (sixteen years ago) link

Here it is: subliminal scenes in Oliver Stone's JFK

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 05:06 (sixteen years ago) link

The best JFK assassination movie: Executive Action

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 05:08 (sixteen years ago) link

Actually, Radio would be great as a JFK assassination movie. As would be Finding Nemo.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 05:08 (sixteen years ago) link

ET, have you seen Winter Kills?

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 05:09 (sixteen years ago) link

I thought you had linked to Executive Decision for a second there.

s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 05:10 (sixteen years ago) link

Also check out Interview With The Assassin

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 05:12 (sixteen years ago) link

As history JFK is questionable to say the least, though supposedly so is the Warren Report. As viseral cinema it is phenomenal in its energy and detail, examples that previous posts by Slutsky and Girolama point out. The Lee Harvey Oswald bio montage, opening Bay of Pigs newsreel overture, and the aforementioned Sutherland monologue are key examples of why Stone was nearly unmatched as a filmmaker in 1990s Hollywood.
Executive Action has the hilarious closing V.O., which is stangely eerie, about how one witness to the assasination was killed by a "karate chop to the neck".
The more intellectually thoughtful artistic works to be inspired by the Kennedy assasination include Don Delillo's fictionalized Oswald bio "Libra", which theorizes a series of events that are scarily realistic with respect to human nature. And Bruce Conner's short film REPORT uses footage taped off of television to give a powerfully expressive montage account of what (I imagine) it was like to experience the event as a television viewer. Conner uses repetition brilliantly in the piece.

theodore fogelsanger, Wednesday, 15 October 2003 16:38 (sixteen years ago) link

i dreamt last night that the cause of jfk's assassination was bob-a-job week

sadly this important historical revelation is nowhere reflected in stone's film

"the parallax effect" and "three days of the condor" are two pretty good 70s 12-ft-lizard movies abt assassination politics

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 15 October 2003 16:52 (sixteen years ago) link

'parallax view' you mean i think . terrified me aged about 13 that.

JFK is *made* by that mr. x/sutherland sequence,but yep those techniques of multi-film stock/editing craziness etc seemed brilliant/insane/eye-popping in '92. nobody else had done anything like that.
in fact 'nbk' was just re-hashing most of them shot for shot and
no-one noticed as they hadn't seen jfk in the 1st place. it was a seriously under-watched film at the time, but at 2 hrs 20 minutes
even in it's original non-director's cut that isn't surprising.

stone never ever ever said anything about it being the whole truth.
it was well known that x was based on prouty, although
obviously the waters are yet more muddied around the conspiracy by the fact that he goes too far the other way in trying to convince us of his version, but hey it asked a lot of questions, and it made people ask more questions etc etc.
empire magazine gave it some kind of weird 'inspiration' award about 5 years ago for some reason and stone showed up, gave a speech looking genuinely touched, moved etc.

there was an *astonishing* episode of DISPATCHES (channel 4, uk)
which i had seen early 90's ('91 ?) not long before seeing the movie,
and that was all facts no theory, it definitely helped to see something like that beforehand.

sutherland's fave bit of all his 80's/90's work he says.
3 months prep for 1 days' acting by all accnts. one day !

" does that sound like a bunch of coincidences to you mr garrison ? ...not for one moment"

piscesboy, Thursday, 16 October 2003 13:14 (sixteen years ago) link

man, donald sutherland's voice is one of the greatest things about the 20th century

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 16 October 2003 14:53 (sixteen years ago) link

canadians already rule the world = the REAL conspiracy here!!

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 16 October 2003 15:09 (sixteen years ago) link

I should note that when I talk about manipulative and misleading bullshit I'm not just talking about the JFK conspiracy stuff. I'm also talking about stuff like the closing summation from Costner that didn't exist in real life cuz Garrison's assistant actually gave the closing speech. I'm more complaining about the way Hollywood (and Stone is DEFINITELY Hollywood, sorry) always bleaches movies based on real life. A Beautiful Mind being a classic example. It always seems to me that the real story is more interesting, cuz, well THAT'S WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED in real life. Stone's "alternative myth" is such a case of two wrongs not making a right, though I'm even more grossed out by Nixon, where his visual style became much more random and simplistic.

Of course, Alexander will be when he stops blaming the gays and ethnics for everything that's wrong with the world. Naturally. I should really see Salvador. It's got James Woods and it's not a revisionist take on American history. Whew.

Yes, Sutherland was great. Though I really wish they'd given John Candy more scenes.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 16 October 2003 15:16 (sixteen years ago) link

That's kind of the problem with all movies ever.

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 16 October 2003 18:40 (sixteen years ago) link

Except for "Who's Harry Crumb?"

NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 16 October 2003 19:01 (sixteen years ago) link

They better not touch that scene where he's lying flat against that big skylight.

s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 16 October 2003 22:39 (sixteen years ago) link

I hope someone actually get the cash to make James Ellroy's books "American Tabloid" and "The Cold Six Thousand" into a miniseries. Those two books are much, much further over the top, ugly and entertaining than either "JFK" or "Libra".

That documentary "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" and the follow up are also worth watching if you are interested in the Kennedy assassination. I think Stone nicked more from it than he would want to admit.


earlnash, Friday, 17 October 2003 00:35 (sixteen years ago) link

JFK is really massively entertaining and beautifully put together, but of course total bullshit. I saw it around the same time I read a handful of conspiracy books by the likes of Jim Marrs, Gerald Posner, and some others. Posner's was the most convincing, and he thinks Oswald did it. And if you've ever met some of these astonishingly influential conspiracy theorists (I worked on a bad cable TV show that had a couple of them on...Marrs and the guy who wrote Best Evidence), you can see how loony they are. Marrs also believes that UFOs attacked Los Angeles in the '40s. Logic just doesn't prevail in the case of JFK....

still a really good movie!

Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 17 October 2003 05:00 (sixteen years ago) link

It always seems to me that the real story is more interesting, cuz, well THAT'S WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED in real life.

That's what I always say, too.

oops (Oops), Friday, 17 October 2003 05:06 (sixteen years ago) link

We need more films this insane!! Stoney shd do the Florida election in the same style. Gay Cubans agogo, neo-con cabals in smoky rooms, lurking Ay-rab terrorists... k-classic.

This pitch is copyright, btw.

Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 17 October 2003 12:50 (sixteen years ago) link

Too bad you can't copyright ideas... ;)

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 17 October 2003 14:08 (sixteen years ago) link

You sure about that? It's written, anyway.

(I must have time on my hands)

Enrique (Enrique), Friday, 17 October 2003 14:12 (sixteen years ago) link

if only stone had based jfk on this theory

(posner quotes ballistics expert donahue to refute criticism of the "magic bullet" theory but gets his name wrong)

(ps my friend adair's decisive refutation of posner's book: "Jesus, look at that man's HAIR OIL!!") (this shd also have been in stone's film)

mark s (mark s), Friday, 17 October 2003 14:19 (sixteen years ago) link

WTF? Witnesses? I like ballistics, they are fun. But -- well, are there not easier ways of finding out here? Man stands up with sub-machine gun? In plain sight? And says 'I wan you to meet my liddle fren'

Knoll Edmonds (Enrique), Friday, 17 October 2003 14:26 (sixteen years ago) link

the description of hickey's movements on the web-page is inaccurate: the book suggests he fell BACKWARDS when the cars speeded up, and so wd not particularly have LOOKED as if he was firing a (single acc.theory) shot, just as if he was falling over backwards

it claims the secret servicemen surrounding him DID know, but covered it up as it was an accident and oswald had already shot jfk fatally and why introduce irrelevancies which wd damage an innocent if clumsy colleague's career needlessly blah blah

the witnesses on the verge etc were anyway notoriously all over the place as to where the various shots came from in terms of puffs of smoke, drifts of smoke and sounds of shots complete w.echoes, plus already looking all directions away from the cars bcz oswald had already fired twice (missed car altogether first time, hit kennedy AND connaly second time)

hickey WAS armed with this gun: that's historically attested to, and visible in some of the photos, esp.the later ones where the motorcade is speeding to the hospital and he's holding it pointed upwards

plus also there's photographic studies of what direction a pumpkin wrapped in masking tape will lurch if you fire a gun into it

mark s (mark s), Friday, 17 October 2003 14:42 (sixteen years ago) link

More details - just arrived.

Blimey Mark. Full-on shit there. Er, I'll go with it, but LHO managed a fatal shot? Or maybe he *would* have if CIA guy hadn't? I'm well outta my depth, my Dad was mad into it and I was all yeah yeah: classic conspiracy scene: Annie Hall.

The motorcade sped on...

Steinski (Enrique), Friday, 17 October 2003 14:53 (sixteen years ago) link

haha i tried to find one of the pix in question but found myself on a page where some loony was claiming, based on a photo blown up so large you couldn't make out ANYTHING AT ALL, that one of kennedy's SS-men is "grinning in an evil way" hence etc etc

i think oswald did it end-of-story, but if you want a good conspiracy, menninger's is my favourite on aesthetix-of-slapstick grounds

mark s (mark s), Friday, 17 October 2003 15:08 (sixteen years ago) link

If you've ever been to the School Book Depository and gotten a look from up there, you'd have no doubt that it's an easy shot, for the most part. As for the whole "he didn't have enough time" thing, they don't take into account that the first shot fired was a complete miss. One in the trees, one in Kennedy and Connolly, one in Kennedy's head.

Or just read Posner's book.

Girolamo Savonarola, Friday, 17 October 2003 15:08 (sixteen years ago) link

People believe this conspiracy shit now for the same reasons they think Saddam partially orchestrated 9/11: they don't know jack about the case, the circumstances, the evidence, and how illogical it is that a shooting like that would be carried out with the shooters (who allegedly weren't of the Sirhan Sirhan "I just don't give a fuck" school of thinking, but wanted to get away) mere feet away from dozens of people, cameras everywhere, etc.

Quite honestly though the most despicable thing about JFK the film is that it names and implicates Clay Shaw as being involved in the killing, when in reality he was just a businessman with an extremely tenuous connection to the CIA. Garrison was a scumbag, really. Tried to indict a guy from Cali in the JFK plot, because he once wrote him the prez a threatening letter.

Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 18 October 2003 03:19 (sixteen years ago) link

if stone had based the movie on the slapstick theory then it would have been nowhere near as exciting of course.

I have a friend who always gets pretty mad at historical inaccuracies in movies (esp regarding world war II movies).

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 19 October 2003 17:59 (sixteen years ago) link

no but it wd be funny, which is better than exciting

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 19 October 2003 21:31 (sixteen years ago) link

what about something that's funny and exciting? like your beloved spaceballs!

s1utsky (slutsky), Monday, 20 October 2003 01:24 (sixteen years ago) link

people like you don't have to, i guess.

may i go?

people like you just walk between the raindrops.

...may i go.

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 04:16 (two months ago) link

I ALWAYS LOCK MY FILES!

Pauline Male (Eric H.), Wednesday, 18 September 2019 10:25 (two months ago) link

so what is precisely the point of the woman who accosts Garrison in the street to remind him that they sang together during his reelection party ("You're the Cream in My Co-ffeeeeee....")?

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 18 September 2019 12:02 (two months ago) link

My favorite editing touches happen when Stone flash forwards within scenes with visuals (Jack Ruby talking while his body is wheeled out) or sound (Clay Shaw introducing himself to the Garrison crew while a doorbell tinkle announces the arrival of O'Keefe years earlier).

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 18 September 2019 12:03 (two months ago) link

i thought that woman in the street was in there to show -- Jim Garrison, Man of the People

omar little, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 14:07 (two months ago) link

I thought so too but Stone is not a director of ancillary moments.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 18 September 2019 17:18 (two months ago) link

I don't believe I ever mentioned this (maybe to dlh in private): watching JFK in high school with me, my buddy gasped when Silvia Odio's name was mentioned. "She's an old friend of my mom's."

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, April 30, 2019

So I cheated and skipped head in the Summers book to read about the Odio episode. Apparently he found her and her sister's account credible.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 18 September 2019 17:27 (two months ago) link

i think there are a few throwaway moments throughout showing Highly Respected Jim Garrison, like immediately after he goes into that restaurant and he's greeted by the maitre'd who knows him personally and even leaves the adjoining table empty so they can have privacy. He's supposed to be Jimmy Stewart!

omar little, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 17:29 (two months ago) link

martini waiting for him!

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 18 September 2019 17:31 (two months ago) link

i really love the bug-eyed FBI agent who accosts Bill Broussard outside Ferrie's apartment. one of those nicely cast tiny roles, they needed a guy who could plausibly intimidate Michael Rooker.

omar little, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 17:34 (two months ago) link

You listen. You listen real hard. Get in the car.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 18 September 2019 17:39 (two months ago) link

a doorbell tinkle announces the arrival of O'Keefe years earlier

this is terrific yeah, almost posted about it the other day-- the sound is triggered by garrison saying o'keefe's name, plays over a deadpan shot of shaw denying he's heard it while it literally rings a bell in his head, and immediately turns out to be a J-cut into answering the door.

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 18:50 (two months ago) link

afaict the cream in my coffee lady is there so u know garrison is cool w black people, it's kinda cringey. worse imo is the scene where an anonymous and unspeaking black father+son are tendentiously arranged near kennedy's graveside, presumably to be seen paying tribute to all jfk did for civil rights in contrast to his monstrous usurper

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 18:57 (two months ago) link

but omar otm that the former is also part of a set of little "this guy's a pillar of the community!" moments, which i don't mind in general. you have to establish that he begins as a comfortable square.

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 18:59 (two months ago) link

yes exactly garrison is a man of ALL the people

though it's wild that a film taking place in a city which in the '60s was probably 40% black has like three or four speaking roles for black actors (by speaking i mean like one or two lines) and barely more who even appear onscreen.

omar little, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 19:03 (two months ago) link

yup

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 19:05 (two months ago) link

altho i will go ahead and defend the part where thankless burn-hollywood-burn role "mattie" gets the line "i never did believe it", like she saw thru the veil w her magic black eyes all along, because it prob is worth making the point that many americans don't need as much convincing as jim garrison to decide something's rotten in the state

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 19:13 (two months ago) link

I also like the bit where Liz has her one moment of curiosity about the case: peering over Suzie's shoulder as she explains the fraudulent photo.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 18 September 2019 19:30 (two months ago) link

Liz was woke for the late '60s though, she accused her husband of waging a campaign against Shaw because he was gay.

omar little, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 19:41 (two months ago) link

lol Stone has no sympathy for Liz at all. "Some people don't understand that they are higher things" or, my favorite, after the big Liz-Jim fight, "I wrote this based on a fight with my ex-wife while I was on mushrooms...someone has to take our country back."

Reminds me of the charming New Yorker story I read in 1994 in which Stone admits to recently spiking a woman's drink to sleep with her.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 19 September 2019 01:38 (two months ago) link

Join the rest! They'll say I'm crazy. Plenty of people will tell you I'm crazy. You won't have any problems filling out divorce papers. But somebody's got to try, goddamn it! Somebody!

omar little, Thursday, 19 September 2019 01:40 (two months ago) link

I finished Summers and uh the assassination remains an enigma trapped in a mystery trapped in Mailer fiction. I finished the book thinking Oliver Stone's allegations were more correct than not (realizing that he and co-writer Sklar borrowed so much from transcripts reassured and discomfited at once).

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 21 September 2019 14:17 (one month ago) link

A couple sly bits I was reminded of on last night’s rewatch of the first half:

In the opening montage, JFK leaves Allen Dulles hanging on an attempted handshake (motive!!)

After the assassination, when LBJ is getting down to the business of Vietnam, inserted into the news footage are quick abstract shots of LBJ that must be filmed by Stone, it lends a sinister note which you’d never notice if you’re weren’t looking for them.

omar little, Saturday, 21 September 2019 16:04 (one month ago) link

Like very quick shots of maybe a head turn or an arm or something. I didn’t go back to freeze frame.

omar little, Saturday, 21 September 2019 16:06 (one month ago) link

realizing that he and co-writer Sklar borrowed so much from transcripts

yeah i had no idea either. an inspired act of god should happen, and put a texan in the white house!

difficult listening hour, Saturday, 21 September 2019 16:41 (one month ago) link

Costner's voice breaking as he delivers his closing statement to the jury, sounding like he just discovered one of Liz's hairs in his mouth and is trying to talk through it before surreptitiously spitting it out.

omar little, Wednesday, 25 September 2019 18:21 (one month ago) link

Garrison's son coming into the courtroom just in time for dad to play the head shot on the Zapruder film over and over.

omar little, Wednesday, 25 September 2019 18:23 (one month ago) link

You never spoke like that to me before, Jim Garrison.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 25 September 2019 18:24 (one month ago) link

reading the Summers book, which is to put it mildly critical of Oliver Stone and this film, i was also surprised to see how much Stone did stick to facts and transcripts. The guy by the knoll flashing a Secret Service ID to the patrolman, but later it's discovered no secret service guys were in that area.

I'm surprised Oliver didn't run with the father and daughter who gave brief pursuit to a vehicle driven by a guy fleeing the scene from the knoll area.

omar little, Wednesday, 25 September 2019 18:26 (one month ago) link

the book doesn't even mention Clay Shaw afaict, and only mentions Garrison to demean the investigation as a disgrace and a farce.

omar little, Wednesday, 25 September 2019 18:27 (one month ago) link

The guy by the knoll flashing a Secret Service ID to the patrolman, but later it's discovered no secret service guys were in that area.

afterward, it didn't ring true

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 25 September 2019 18:29 (one month ago) link

He looked like a mechanic.
He had on a sports shirt and pants,
but he had dirty fingernails.

^^i love that this is actually true!

omar little, Wednesday, 25 September 2019 18:31 (one month ago) link

Summer treats the evidence as if he were William Wyler attempting a solid craftsman's interpretation of the material, but the conclusions are not dissimilar.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 25 September 2019 18:34 (one month ago) link

he's also very hard on the Posner book, which i did find convincing at the time, and iirc it did seem to explain Oswald's behavior as being perfectly in line with someone who was mentally unbalanced, which is something i think oft overlooked by conspiracy-minded types trying to find cold logic in events that are the result of unpredictable and illogical human behavior. this book is intriguing thus far, though.

omar little, Wednesday, 25 September 2019 18:49 (one month ago) link

XA-XA-XA!

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 25 September 2019 18:58 (one month ago) link

I never did believe it.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 6 October 2019 14:01 (one month ago) link

i can't believe you're saying this in the courtroom!

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 09:39 (one month ago) link

I saw a girl the other day, she was pregnant -- you could see her whole belly, and you know what she painted on it? "Love Child."

Pauline Male (Eric H.), Tuesday, 8 October 2019 12:50 (one month ago) link

You're out of order, Jim Boy! Now sit down!

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 8 October 2019 14:39 (one month ago) link

well, i wanted to make sure that she was the same girl i sent away!

― difficult listening hour, Sunday, January 27, 2019 12:55 AM bookmarkflaglink

assuming this is direct from a transcript too now. always reminds me of gravity's rainbow

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 14:56 (one month ago) link

dlh, you're pickin' gnat shit outta peppa!

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 8 October 2019 15:02 (one month ago) link

That polecat Lyndon

omar little, Tuesday, 8 October 2019 15:46 (one month ago) link

four weeks pass...

been digging into that Summers book a bit more. That Silvia Odio story, which gets a mere passing mention in the film, practically has an entire chapter devoted to it in the book and actually seems a bit more sinister than Stone made it out to be. Alfred, you've got to track down your source aka your buddy from years ago.

omar little, Tuesday, 5 November 2019 19:41 (two weeks ago) link

shit, omar, I can't remember what I did last night, let alone three years ago!

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 5 November 2019 19:42 (two weeks ago) link

yeah, putting aside my buddy's anecdote about the Odio incident, that's one of the tributaries with the ring of truth, and Summers doesn't disbelieve her.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 5 November 2019 19:43 (two weeks ago) link

the thing that rings true is the notion that Oswald was perhaps a government asset or agent, and if that was the case: while his behavior seems really unusual and odd and obvious, it only seems that way now once we're looking at it under a microscope and putting it into context and i don't doubt there were hundreds of other assets or agents who acted with similar oddness and inconsistency because they were working for a larger U.S. agenda. like it's the type of behavior that if Oswald had never become mixed up in the Kennedy assassination (either by actually perpetrating it or being part of a plot or simply in the orbit of those who did kill him) no one would have ever noticed these inconsistencies. much of it rose to the surface after the fact.

omar little, Tuesday, 5 November 2019 19:50 (two weeks ago) link

I don't get it, though. The guy defects to the USSR and then comes back and hands out pro-Cuba leaflets but is in fact anti-Castro on the down low.

This is a weird little scene- Oswald goes into a store of an anti-Castro guy and says he can help him and then gets into a fight with him and is arrested. At the police station Oswald requests an interview with the FBI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Bringuier

brownie, Tuesday, 5 November 2019 20:37 (two weeks ago) link

he next day, Oswald again visited the store and left his Guidebook for Marines f

"Oh! What have we here?!"

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 5 November 2019 20:38 (two weeks ago) link

that’s precisely the point of both brothers, there’s more to this than you could dream

omar little, Tuesday, 5 November 2019 20:45 (two weeks ago) link


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