Meat for Millar (revised and/or explained)

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I think most people who checked out that thread didn't realize they had jumped into a conversation I didn't explain at all and assumed I was getting all up in poor ol' Millar's face for being a meat-eater.

Not true, I forgot to explain where the thread originated from. It came from Donut Bitch's post about his/her anxiety attacks. It never was about converting people to veganism, but it is a nice bonus if they do. It was started out as well-intentioned helpful suggestion to someone with a panic disorder (found to be relieved on a pure vegan diet; many Atkins dieters experience incredible anxiety and rage)

Here was the exchange:











My
response to Donut Bitch's anxiety attacks:


Donut Bitch, you're probably suffering emotional problems due to a shitty
diet (just a guess). Cut out meat, dairy, eggs, coffee, cigarettes and alcohol
for a full month (eat healthy instead, don't eat potato chips and spaghetti).
Then, go back on the net and go straight to rotten.com or bangedup.com or
some other sickness and see if it bothers you. If it does, continue with
the new diet for another month. Keep doing this until you are dead because
this diet with help, anyway, even if it doesn't cure you of this weird problem
you have.

-- Scaredy Cat (pushki...), June 19th, 2003.




My second response
(trying to help):


Seriously though, it's not just coffee, cigarettes and alcohol. Do you
have any idea how meat & dairy is produced. It is the root cause of
most of western society's vast array of new sickness epidemics since WWII.


Meat, dairy and eggs = the only generic foods that advertise regularly.
What does that tell you? I can't remember the last time I heard a radio
spot for vegetables, but I heard a dairy commercial about 6 times today
and saw "Steak. It's what's for dinner." ads on the subway.

That shit is worse for you than coffee and cigarettes combines. Not sure
about the alcohol, since being a raging alcoholic is pretty unhealthy
lifestyle.

-- Scaredy Cat (pushki...), June 19th, 2003.


This was a half-serious,
half-exaggerated post. However, studies have shown that vegetarian smokers
are less susceptible to cancers, alcoholics less so to liver diseases
and less damaged by coffee.


Millar's
Response


This is so patently false that I advise you to shut up immediately. There
are other threads where you can discuss the pros and cons of various diets
from Vegan to Atkins and in between. I would however advise you to quit
making statements like this one without first, I dunno, reading the newspapers
once in a blue moon maybe.-- Millar (tmilla...), June 19th, 2003.

So, hopefully now you can all understand what the other thread was about. If not, let me sum up the key points I was making:

"Root cause of most of the diseases" definition: most of the diseases Americans suffer can be directly linked to meat eating. There are too many diseases, sicknesses/conditions to even take the time to list which are directly and dramatically improved in a short time on a pure vegetarian diet. True, a vegan can have high cholesterol, but that vegan is really eating a shit diet high in fat, which would be an indication that it's not so much meat that's the problem, but how much of whatever you eat? Well, that sounds true, but let's take a look at a little chart, shall we?





















CHOLESTEROL CONTENT OF COMMON FOODS















Animal Food









    Plant Food


Cholesterol Content (in milligrams per 100 Gram Portion)
Cholesterol Content (in milligrams per 100 Gram Portion)
Egg, whole

Kidney, beef

Liver, beef

Butter

Oysters

Cream cheese

Beefsteak

Lamb

Pork

Chicken



550

375

300

250

200

120

70

70

70

60
All grains

All vegetables

All nuts

All seeds

All fruits

All legumes

All vegetable oils



0

0

0

0

0

0

0


This makes me wonder what the hell this vegan was eating. Was this person actually a vegan? Did she eat coconut, palm kernel oil and chocolate (the only plant foods significantly high in saturated fat. Deep fat frying potatoes in vegetable oil would be cholesterol free.

Countries such as the U.S. which have a higher per capita meat consumption than almost any society in the history of the world also happen to have a higher average life expectancy than almost any society in the history of the world (which has increased by 30 years over the last century). You may be able to make a political point out of this, but claiming meat-eating represents some kind of health disaster is just a nonsense, not to mention an insult to all the Third Worlders who subsist on fucking grains and die at 40.

Eskimos, Laplanders, Greenlanders and Russian Kurgi tribes, which have the highest animal flesh consumption in the world—and also as among the populations with the lowest life expectancies, often only live about 30 years. Contrast that with other peoples, living in equally harsh conditions who eat little or no animal flesh and have some of the highest life expectancies in the world. Russian caucasians, Yucatan Indians, East Indian Todas and Pakistan Hunzakuts have life expectancies of 90 to 100 years (and their elderly are physically fit and able to work and play in the ages most Americans have 2 broken hips and Alzheimer's, even on their 100th birthday, retirement is unheard of).

The United States has the most sophisticated medical technology in the world, and on eof the most temperate of climates. One of the highest consumers of meat and animal products in the world, it also has one of the lowest life expectancies of industrialized naitons. Rated 24th out of 191 (not many of which qualify as "sophisticated industrialized countries).

The cultures with the very longest life spans in the world are the Vilcambas, who reside in the Andes of Ecuador, the Abkhasians, who live on the Black Sea in the USSR and the Hunzas, who live in the Himalayas of Norther Pakistan, all of which are totally vegetarian or close to it. So, your reference to starving people who barely get by on one food source isn't much of a point, is it?

And finally, back to the issue of pesticides:

Meat contains approximately 14 times more pesticides than do plant foods; dairy products 5 1/2 times more. So, by eating anything, however little, from animal origin, one is ingesting greatly concentrated amounts of hazardous materials. In animals, as in humans, these chemicals are stored in the fatty tissues. This is why mother's milk is contaminated; a nursing woman's body draws on its body fat resservoirs to make milk. In these reservoirs, virtually all the toxic chemicals she has ever ingested, inhaled, or absorbed through her skin are stored. So, when you eat from a cow, drink milk or have cheese, you are not getting great concentrated doses of pesticides. Vegetables, having no fatty tissues, are far less contaminated. Vegetarian mothers are found to have 1,000x less contamination in their milk than meat eaters (only 1 or 2 per cent contamination as that experienced by the national average, the greatest percentage of contamination occuring in those with a heavy meat, dairy and egg diet.)

Interestingly, these pesticides also tend to collect in the male reproductive tract. This is pretty important. These chemicals are toxic enough that they can change the DNA molecule. Changes in chromosomes of sperm or precursor cells may be transmitted to all future generations of humans. Chromosomes can't be repaired (well, okay, we've mapped the human genome and can clone things now, so maybe we don't have to worry about this issue). A handful of dioxin is sufficient to kill ten million people (actually more).

So, in summary, I am not differentiating between red meat, white meat or fish. I'm also not saying that every person who gets cancer is due to meat-eating. When I say "root cause" I mean "of primary concern, moreso than many other factors (barring things more extreme like welding jobs, etc.) I am also referring to AMERICAN meat packing plants. I trust Ed when he says Europe is different.


And, so, if you bothered to read at leat the introduction to that (which I am tending to doubt almost anyone here did given the last thread, you should plainly see that this has nothing to do with "bible thumping" veganism and mercilessly pestering those who prefer meat. This is just my response to the charges of spreading "patently false" advice, even though I stated nothing major.

The facts are hard to refute: there's a major difference per each portion of meat vs. veggies regarding toxicity and cholesterol levels, which are the root cause of most illnesses. The difference is ridiculously MAJOR, so there is no point in comparing apples and oranges to beef and chicken. Facts don't lie.

What were the statements that were "patently false"?
1. Try it, Donut Bitch, it might work.
2. meat & dairy is the root cause of most of western society's vast array of new sickness epidemics since WWII.

and, what people probably find most outrageous is the statement "meat is worse than cigarettes, booze and coffee combined" which is referring to the fact that pure vegetarians are much less prone to diseases from smoking, drinking and coffee than meat eaters for a variety of reasons. It might not have been the best way of expressing that, but like I said, the initial post was meant to be helpful and offhanded. It certainly is not "patently false".

There was no shred of vegan "holier than thou" sanctimony here or there. It was an argument continued in a new thread is all. Sorry for the confusion.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 05:14 (seventeen years ago) link

I still haven't seen any facts. Once agin you make a good case for well reared meat in moderation.

If you want to convinced mee you're going to have to show me some peer modderated academic papers by reputable academics and show me some that make the counter claim.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 05:38 (seventeen years ago) link

SC, I haven't eaten meat for over 10 years, and I've been borderline vegan for about three. Thanks for the help, but I think there might be other issues at hand here besides the very little dairy I eat.

(Did you not catch Dan's comments on the original thread? Honestly, I was having a hard time containing myself, too!)

donut bitch (donut), Friday, 20 June 2003 05:46 (seventeen years ago) link

I noticed that someone (was it Dan) thought it was hilarious because you have been a vegetarian for so many years. How this renders the whole tip obsolete, I'm not sure. I said basically that maybe it was linked to diet. I even wrote "(just a guess)". I also said, "even if it doesn't cure you..." So, what's so ridiculous?

Ed, if you have not seen any facts, you won't see any facts with 2 viewpoints of the same problem (impartial science vs. paid for by meat industry). Diet For A New America has the ins and outs of these cases as well as a long list of footnotes and references.

Scaredu Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 06:05 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, I dunno, Ed. Do science journals and news sources count as facts here or am I to specifically go dig up scientific research papers on cholesterol, pesticides and veggie vs. meat diets, scan them in on a computer, upload 'em and report back to see if you approve? Or what?

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 06:10 (seventeen years ago) link

There is no such thing as impartial science, that's why you have to get at least two view points. Show me some science journals.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:14 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't believ I just typed science journals, read as scientific journals please.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Ed - 'facts' = 'whatever she sez', 'well reasoned argument' = 'agree with me', 'live and let live' = 'beef industry propaganda', 'politeness' = 'chimera', 'a clue' = 'that which will not be got'

James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:16 (seventeen years ago) link

Also news articles don't count because I've seen the horros and inaccuracies written in the name of 'science and technology "news"' in my own field.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Why on god's green earth did you spawn a SECOND thread for this?

Chris P (Chris P), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:20 (seventeen years ago) link

At long last, Scaredy Cat, have you no sense of decency?

Chris P (Chris P), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:20 (seventeen years ago) link


(l-r: Millar, Scaredy Cat)

James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Here's a story in Scientific American about the revision of the Food Pyramid (to be completed in 2004) that discusses the issues of cholesterol in meat and dairy. It's pretty long. I'm sorry, but I have no counter argument for this piece (except my own, which isn't so much a counter-argument as "additional thoughts"). This is pretty lame for Scientific American to overlook so many details, but they did get some things right. Of course, the issue of pesticides is not addressed at all. But, you will find plenty of non-shocking advice here.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 06:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Chris, just to explain the first one, really. I don't think many people understood what was going on there. And, for chrissakes, why do people get so upset if there's a thread on a subject they don't like? I mean, are you magically sucked into it and forced to participate? Jeezus Keerist, for such an open-minded lot, you can sure be a bunch of fascists at times.

Scaredy cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 06:34 (seventeen years ago) link

just......let.....it......go.......

enough is enough

and as for being a fascist, fuX0r you.

chris (chris), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:35 (seventeen years ago) link

What, that our current understanding of nutrition might be proven completely wrong in a decade? That isn't shocking. Of course, it totally makes your arguments moot...

Chris P (Chris P), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:36 (seventeen years ago) link

(That was about the Scientific American article.)

Chris P (Chris P), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:36 (seventeen years ago) link

"Red meat also raises the risk of type 2 diabetes and colon cancer. The elevated risk of colon cancer may be related in part to the carcinogens produced during cooking and the chemicals found in processed meats such as salami and bologna."

So cut down on the chargrilling eat meat as rare as possible and no cheap salami, then.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:43 (seventeen years ago) link

A Scientific American discussion on relative dangers of environmental estrogens such as those found in red meat. Pretty safe all around, commits to nothing (also mentions the tobacco industry, which is interesting)...

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 06:44 (seventeen years ago) link

Scientific American on DDT and premature births. It's nice we stopped using this chemical, but it's not like that's the only dangerous one, now is it?

Scaredy cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 06:49 (seventeen years ago) link

Scientific American on antibiotics and many microbes that cause human disease are becoming resistant to antibiotics. "The price of complacency could set us back to an era where untreatable infectious diseases are regrettably commonplace."

See, now here it's a news item in a scientific journal... so, I'm confused as to what to do. I've posted it, anyway.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 06:52 (seventeen years ago) link

neither of those articles are arguments for not eating meat. They are fine arguments for organic farming, for restricting environmental pollution and for not automatically feeding livestock antibiotics (also not doling out drugs like smarties to humans, which is a fine argument against private healthcare provision)

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Ed, it's rude to interrupt a guy mid-wank.

Chris P (Chris P), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:00 (seventeen years ago) link

Right, Ed, part of my argument as an American where organic meat is still toxic. The food pyramid article addressed the issues of eating meat, but not the issue of toxicity. It suggested fish proteins, which are toxic. I would substitute flaxseed and a low-fat diet myself, rather than toxic, fatty fish.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Chris, seriously, go fuck yourself. If you have nothing to add, why the fuck are you here. Go play with your pecker. I'm not riled up and mad right now, ranting and raving. I'm having a discussion or exchange and you're acting like a little piss-twirp who wants to play with our Tonka trucks.

Call me all the names you like, but you're the one who's being a rude cunt here.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:03 (seventeen years ago) link

You are ranting and raving. You're posting a series of articles for your own benefit. Do you seriously think that Millar or pretty much any of the rest of us here don't know the stuff you're linking to? You've been acting in all three of these threads like you're Moses bring the word down from the mountaintop. But everyone's responses have shown that yes, they already know all this, and yes, they've sorted out what role this information is going to play in their life. And yet you keep ranting on.

You're not listening and you're assuming we're a bunch of uneducated morons. You go so far as to start yet ANOTHER thread about the exact same stuff because "no one understands your point" despite all evidence to the contrary. And you manage to start a thread about veganism that puts off most of the vegetarians and vegans on the board (including myself). And therefore we make fun of you. You have made yourself into a caricature and it has become sport to see how many ways we can poke you into being that caricature. It's a cruel sport, maybe, but it's also one that most of us have found ourselves at the receiving end at one point or another; it's important to realize when it's happening and what it means, but that's probably a completely different thread. (Hmm...)

Chris P (Chris P), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Asshole, I'm responding to Ed's request for scientific journals which would provide evidence for the claims above.

You're being an asshole, so go away now, asshole.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Modern human life is full of exposure to toxins, as in fact was primitive human life. I worry a lot less about those in my food than those all around me.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:16 (seventeen years ago) link

You go so far as to start yet ANOTHER thread about the exact same stuff because "no one understands your point" despite all evidence to the contrary.

Obviously, you still don't. The point was not to preach veganism, but back up my claims, which I've done and am doing still. Either post something relavant or keep on acting like a child.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:17 (seventeen years ago) link

Ed, I just want to point out that I'm not trying to get people worried about food or even care if this is true. I'm merely providing evidence that what I said was true. It was true. I can hardly see what anyone would be contesting at this point.

Scaredy cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:19 (seventeen years ago) link

But the evidence you are presenting is from one source and one source only and very little of it is going to help back up the point you started out with.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Dude, sorry, but you're being a total dick.
(No that's okay. I'll show myself out.)

oops (Oops), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:29 (seventeen years ago) link

What point has not been backed up sufficiently? Explain.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:30 (seventeen years ago) link

See... that's what I don't get. People have told me now on both threads, basically, "NO SHIT, THIS IS OLD NEWS" (like I said, this isn't supposed to be shocking revelation, so the "Moses on the mountaintop thing" is completely off the mark)...

So, why is it that I'm hearing that this is all obvious, old news and yet there is also the prevailing attitude that this is not true? It's obvious, everyone here knows it, but then again, apparantly, most of you here don't believe it.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:39 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774532.html

SC, actual life expectancy is much of a muchness across the industrialised world. You say America comes way down the list, but the difference is only a year or two (for men at least, American women are way up at the top) so a) why worry, and b) why make over-dramatic assumptions about discrepancies which are likely the result of a million&one different factors (I notice that German men come nearer the top, and they aren't exactly renowned for their fat-free diet).

sb, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:44 (seventeen years ago) link

Because the articles you link to don't seem to prove your main theory that meat is more dangerous than any other factor? (I admit I haven't read them but from your descriptions of them they don't really seem relevant to your main point.)

Also, now that I reread it:

I can't remember the last time I heard a radio
spot for vegetables

Those avocado billboards are everywhere, around here; I don't know if they have radio spots or not. I feel certain that there's another vegetable or fruit ad campaign that I'm not remembering right now...

Chris P (Chris P), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:44 (seventeen years ago) link

there are dozens of fruit and vegetable ad campaigns

James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:46 (seventeen years ago) link

You have failed to provide more than one source for any of your claims. You have failed to provide any evidence that a balanced meat eating diet is better than a vegetarian one, you have failed to provide any evidence to suggest than even a heavy meat eater who exercises often will be automatically less healthy than a vegetarian.

Yes eating meat exposes you to toxins that you would not otherwise expose yourself too if you didn't but you have failed to provide any evidence that the increased risks from these toxins exist let alone are significant (estrogens aside). You ahve made no mention of the fact that one would be exposed to a lot of these toxins in a similar way if you failed to wash your vegetables properly.

All in all you have failed to provide a convincing well reasoned argument. It's very hard to respond properly when you are throwing unverified facts and figures about many of which hindewr rather than help your argument.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:46 (seventeen years ago) link

Me being rude? for crying out loud, these threads always descend into this sort of slanging match, you referrred to us arguing the side of meat eaters fascists - that is just plain rude and wrong and would like an apology for that for a start, and I never called anyone a cnut, so where does the name calling start?

I put forward my thoughts on the other thread, where this conversation should be carried out, instead you decide to start a fresh thread and basically start again, jeez.

I won't be posting on any of these threads again that's for sure, especially when people such as yourselves with your thoughts on rails will just keep spurting out facts that you've read parrot fashion all the way through. Hope you're happy.

chris (chris), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:50 (seventeen years ago) link

You have failed to provide more than one source for any of your claims. You have failed to provide any evidence that a balanced meat eating diet is better than a vegetarian one, you have failed to provide any evidence to suggest than even a heavy meat eater who exercises often will be automatically less healthy than a vegetarian.

I've provided 2, one of which is a culmination of various reports and studies (but that book is not available as an HTML document). I could provide more given more time, yet look what happens! I get called an asshole for providing any! The fact that cholesterol is linked to so many diseases alone is proof that meat eating is less healthy, so extensive meat-eating is much less healthy.

Yes eating meat exposes you to toxins that you would not otherwise expose yourself too if you didn't but you have failed to provide any evidence that the increased risks from these toxins exist let alone are significant (estrogens aside). You ahve made no mention of the fact that one would be exposed to a lot of these toxins in a similar way if you failed to wash your vegetables properly.

Ah, so I've failed to prove that toxins which last for decades and, in some cases, hundreds of years, accumulate and are therefore more concentrated in top-feeders? I've also failed to provide an HTML resource that proves these toxins are stored in fatty tissues, I guess. And I suppose I've failed to provide proof that organic vegetables are likely toxin-free, while organic meat is fed with sprayed grains and toxic fish. Well, give me some time and I'll have it for you, then.

All in all you have failed to provide a convincing well reasoned argument. It's very hard to respond properly when you are throwing unverified facts and figures about many of which hindewr rather than help your argument.

I will find sources for these issues for you then, as you seem to be interested. If you already know these things to be true, and this is a Jedi lesson in proper argumentation procedures, that's pretty dorky, but I'll take the bait.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:58 (seventeen years ago) link

(So has he shown that meat consumption is the only significant difference between Americans and longer-lived citizens from other industrialized nations?)

oops (Oops), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Keep in mind, if you were trying to prove, let's say, the opposite: that top-feeders were just as riddled with pesticides as your average salad, and that cholesterol was not linked to so many diseases, fish were basically free of toxins and, overall, a varied diet consisting of meat, dariy and eggs was more healthy than a diet consisting of mainly vegetable sources, would you have a convincing argument with HTML documents lined up? Could you pull it out of your ass in 2 weekdays? Would you even realize you would be expected to at the start of it? I sure didn't think I would be hearing simultaneously, "SHUT UP, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT" and "WHERE'S YOUR PROOF?!"

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 08:04 (seventeen years ago) link

Welcome to the world pal

oops (Oops), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:05 (seventeen years ago) link

Oops, interesting things have happened that you're referring to. I'm currently looking for online HTML proof of these events for your perusal. Hint: it's exactly what you're asking for.

scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 08:05 (seventeen years ago) link

you'd still be called an asshole

James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:06 (seventeen years ago) link

and I'm pretty sure you'd keep playing dodgeball with anyone who questions on your terms and outraged pro-lifer (in tactics if not details) with anyone who didn't.

James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:07 (seventeen years ago) link

but maybe you can start two threads attacking every poster who takes issue with your hectoring and boorishness.

James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:08 (seventeen years ago) link

whatever, dude.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 08:10 (seventeen years ago) link

dude, if i started 2 threads trying to prove how right I was, I'd have a fucking mega-thesis to unload on fools up in this beeyotch. Hella references and shit. I'd be all like, Boo-yah motherfuckers! And then I'd leave with an elevated sense of self-worth. boo-yippie-yah-kai!

oops (Oops), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:10 (seventeen years ago) link

And I suppose I've failed to provide proof that organic vegetables are likely toxin-free, while organic meat is fed with sprayed grains and toxic fish. Well, give me some time and I'll have it for you, then.

If organic meat is fed with dprayed grains then it is not organic. I've never seen any evidence to suggest that this is the case.

that meat eating is less healthy, so extensive meat-eating is much less healthy.

cholesterol causes diseases yes but this is an argument for moderation not for abstinence, and an increase in omega-3 oils (which help to break down cholesterol) from walnuts oily fish, etc.

would you have a convincing argument with HTML documents lined up? Could you pull it out of your ass in 2 weekdays? Would you even realize you would be expected to at the start of it? I sure didn't think I would be hearing simultaneously,

I assumed that since you were so keen on this subject you would have a few references to back up your claims.

Keep in mind, if you were trying to prove, let's say, the opposite: that top-feeders were just as riddled with pesticides as your average salad, and that cholesterol was not linked to so many diseases

Again it does not follow that just because these toxins are present in meat we should stop eating meat, we shoul stop using the toxins to produce artifically cheap meat (and for that matter vegetables).

Cholesterol only becomes a major problem if you live a sendantry lifestyle. Exercise is much more important than diet in staying healthy. Moderation in everything.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:13 (seventeen years ago) link

I'd just link to a bunch of Scientific American articles (one source dude!) that had maybe tangential connections to my 'point'* at best and in at least one case completely contradicted my 'point'*, but only if I was feeling really disingenous that day.

* - "I am right, you are wrong" (it's a fact!)

James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:15 (seventeen years ago) link

oh, and any time I thought maybe I was losing the argument I'd just start a new thread

James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:20 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought it was time to bring back the rhythm and the rhyme
http://www.austrohungaro.com/hidrogenesse/arte/markwahlberg.jpg
(so to speak)

oops (Oops), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Ed, for your end of the argument, you are assuming people will exercise and eat in moderation and buy organic meat (in Europe where it really is organic, apparantly).

Meanwhile, my opening argument was, "Do you
have any idea how meat & dairy is produced? It is the root cause of most of western society's vast array of new sickness epidemics since WWII." That would be referring to nonorganic meat, obviously, for one thing. For another, in order to deal with the unnecessary cholesterol in your system, you need to limit the amount of meat you eat and exercise. Meanwhile, you can eat all the raw fruits and veggies you want all day long, with great big helpings of nuts and beans and you're never going to have dangerous levels of cholesterol. And you would have to eat A LOT to get fat on a diet like this. While you eat like this, you're also filling your body with fuel that actually makes you much less sedentary than a helping of meat, not to mention all the water, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants and fiber you're getting.

Cultures can go entirely without meat, but you can't go entirely without fruits and vegetables for too long before you develop some serious deficiencies.

But, anyway, I'm in the process of searching for a few things for both you and Oops about different cultures and large groups of people who were on and off meat for different reasons and the correllation to numerous diseases and death rates... These events are actually what got people looking into vegetarianism... So, let me get back to that search.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 08:32 (seventeen years ago) link

ed what is yr itinerary 2day?

mark s (mark s), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:35 (seventeen years ago) link

It is the root cause of most of western society's vast array of new sickness epidemics since WWII

Even if this is true, it's impossible to prove--no matter how many tables you paste for us.

oops (Oops), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:38 (seventeen years ago) link

'It is the root cause of most of western society's vast array of new sickness epidemics since WWII'

This is crazy talk. You might as well say that the root cause of western society's vast array of new sickness epidemics since WWII is proseperity, progress, health care, or the fact that people are living longer. Just because two things correlate does not mean that they are dependant.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:43 (seventeen years ago) link

Though, it does sound ridiculous, a large amount of sick people in the world right now could be made healthier, in many cases, with a pure vegetarian diet in a matter of months, regardless of their exercise or smoking habits and most of these sick people have diseases related to high cholesterol.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 08:53 (seventeen years ago) link

Though, it does sound ridiculous, a large amount of sick people in the world right now could be made healthier, in many cases, with a pure vegetarian diet in a matter of months, regardless of their exercise or smoking habits and most of these sick people have diseases related to high cholesterol.

this is just the kind of wild claim that you need to provide strong evidence for.

Ed (dali), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Rah, rise and shine. I just woke up here, but more lies to back me up are found here: Veg-eating smokers 'cheat illness'... I know, I know, BBC News isn't a public HTML research paper. I'll promptly look for such a thing... (actually, no I won't)...

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 12:04 (seventeen years ago) link

It is suspected that genes may play a role, along with diet and other lifestyle factors.

Er..

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 20 June 2003 12:18 (seventeen years ago) link

This thread also makes me want to renounce vegetarianism, skip past being a carnivore, and go straight to cannibalism so I can kill you all and eat your plump, juicy kidneys.

NA. (Nick A.), Friday, 20 June 2003 12:20 (seventeen years ago) link

A U.S. District Court judge ruled last week that the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) and the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) violated federal laws when they selected individuals with known financial ties to various food industries to serve as members to the Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee. This group was in charge of drawing up the latest nutritional guidelines that comprise the USDA's "Food Pyramid".

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 12:26 (seventeen years ago) link

I wanna live forever, I wanna learn how to fly...

hstencil, Friday, 20 June 2003 12:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Actually, as far as I'm concerned, I just don't want to live in any sickly condition. That's it. If I can avoid a multitude of things that make prolonged existence miserable, I'm all for it (discounting this thread, of course!)

When I get a chance, I'll post some more stuff (stuff I've been looking for online for only a half-hour or so before I had to sleep, wake up and work).

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 14:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Cool.

Sam (chirombo), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:21 (seventeen years ago) link

All of these threads have ended up being deeply strange.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:22 (seventeen years ago) link

There's nothing strange about wanting to eat your kidneys.

NA. (Nick A.), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Depends on the person, I guess.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Why, do you know something about your kidneys that I don't?

NA. (Nick A.), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:27 (seventeen years ago) link

I believe I'm closer to them than you are.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Ned, BEHIND YOU!

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:01 (seventeen years ago) link

That's where I always want you, Dan, so I know you're there.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:24 (seventeen years ago) link

Feelin' on yo kidneys.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:25 (seventeen years ago) link

With that 'special touch.'

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:27 (seventeen years ago) link

He's just testing their plumpness.

NA. (Nick A.), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:43 (seventeen years ago) link

One always has to make sure of that before braising them.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:44 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't believe SC stayed up until 6am to argue about this, holy shit in a basket of apples

Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 June 2003 19:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Scaredy Cat has ridiculous energy since doing Qigong/Karate. I'm talking about myself in the 3rd person.... I have had less than 6 hours of sleep in the past 2 days and still I am not in need of coffee. Part of this is ... wait for it... the vegetarian diet.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 19:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Part of it also sleep-deprivation euphoria.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 20 June 2003 19:55 (seventeen years ago) link

(The rest is a key-lime pie.)

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 20 June 2003 19:56 (seventeen years ago) link

wow SC I'm convinced now

Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 June 2003 19:57 (seventeen years ago) link

I figured that might do the trick, Millar. That's why I saved this secret weapon for last.

Scaredy Cat, Friday, 20 June 2003 20:23 (seventeen years ago) link

For what it's worth, I've gained 5lbs since I started eating bacon AND hamburgers at the same time, so maybe there's something to this.

Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 20 June 2003 20:26 (seventeen years ago) link

depends where the 5lbs went

James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 20:29 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm going to misspell words and then correct myslef afterward.

Chris Barrus (Chris Barrus), Saturday, 21 June 2003 08:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Sorry, "myself"

Chris Barrus (Chris Barrus), Saturday, 21 June 2003 08:23 (seventeen years ago) link

three years pass...
omg, this thread rules! is scaredy cat still around?

timmy tannin (pompous), Thursday, 12 October 2006 04:05 (thirteen years ago) link

Yes.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 October 2006 04:06 (thirteen years ago) link

orrrrrrly

am0n (am0n), Thursday, 12 October 2006 04:10 (thirteen years ago) link

oh, i almost wrote down nude spock as a guess, but didn't want to conjure him up. search function confirms my hunch. my bad.....

timmy tannin (pompous), Thursday, 12 October 2006 04:38 (thirteen years ago) link


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