Sufism

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I am a little bit interested in it as social phenomenon.

It seems to be a space in Islam where heresies (or should I say heretics?) of various sorts could find refuge. It also seems to have often been the edge at which Islamic culture met other cultures, and the place where fusions occurred most frequently (maybe partly because it itself is a result of such fusions). I think one reason there are so many Sufi participants in "world music" is that it comes naturally. Nusrat Fetah Ali Khan working with Michael Brooke (sp?) (ha ha) seems "authentically" Sufi in a certain sense.

It's also really interesting to me that there are some Sufis who firmly say that you need to be a Muslim in order to be a Sufi, and yet there have been Sufis (and not not just recent ones like Idries Shah) who have denied that it has any essential connection to Islam. At times it seems to be a relatively orthodox form of Islam, but one focused on the spiritual life; at other times it seems to be an antinomian hiding place for free-thinkers and other heretics.

I don't know that much about the subject, but I'm hoping some of you will be significantly better informed about it.

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 7 June 2003 12:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

sorry rs, my knowledge of sufi begins and ends with richard/linda thompson unfortunatly...may you find some answers, and remember, a man never stands so tall as when he checks his walls for leakage.

thomas de'aguirre (biteylove), Saturday, 7 June 2003 12:57 (twenty-one years ago) link

I'm sure that from a Sufi point of view, being interested in it as a social phenomenon is missing the point.

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 7 June 2003 13:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

An interesting topic and one I wish I knew more about. My understanding has always been that Sufism is sort of a mystical current of Islam. Whether or not one needs to be Islamic to engage with it I guess is debatable--lots of non-Jews seem to be flocking to the Kabbalah. If anyone can reccomend any books I'd be grateful.

s1utsky (slutsky), Saturday, 7 June 2003 17:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

Slutsky, it's traditional to start with Idries Shah's readily available introductions to Sufism. He's written a thousand books and knows his history - but he's also a profoundly irritating writer, be warned. His constant theme is , "If you have to ask what Sufism is, you'll never know". Which makes it like jazz, then. He's right of course, but it's staggering how often, and over how many books, he can spin out the same refrain.

Also check out the poetry of Rumi, and the tales of Mulla Nasrudin. There are many famous Sufis through Islamic history. To find out about them and their sayings try googling. Also check your local university library.

Hope this helps, good luck.

colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Saturday, 7 June 2003 22:14 (twenty-one years ago) link

thank you colin!

s1utsky (slutsky), Saturday, 7 June 2003 22:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

I would recommend starting with an overview. I have not read it completely, but the Shambhala Guide to Sufism looks like a good place to turn for an overview.

Idries Shah is by no means universally recognized as a spokesman for Sufism.

One intriguing book I happened to come across, because someone at the library where I work was given a copy by a Sufi Shi'ia Muslim friend from Afghanistan, is Sufism for Today by Oma Ali-Shah. Again, I haven't actuallty read it, I've just kept it on my shelf for a while, hoping to absorb some of it by a higher osmosis. While Ali-Shah supports a Sufism which remains Islamic, much of the book seems to consist of very sophisticated common sense advice on life, or maybe common sense, generally, but working with a few presuppositions alien to mainstream western thinking.

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 7 June 2003 22:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

There's actually a Sufi temple or meeting hall (I'm really not sure of the appropriate word) around the corner from me that I keep meaning to check out & ask a few questions.

s1utsky (slutsky), Saturday, 7 June 2003 23:18 (twenty-one years ago) link

(That should have been "Omar Ali-Shah" and not "Oma.")

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 7 June 2003 23:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hey, wait a second, I somehow missed that this is Idries Shah's brother. Small world. There are some comments on Idries Shah in the introduction which seemed somewhat critical, but perhaps I misunderstood them.

Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 7 June 2003 23:50 (twenty-one years ago) link

I have an Idries Shah story. A friend of a friend (instantly you are aware this story may be apocryphal!) was 'cured' by Shah, through an elaborate ritual, of his homosexual predilections. On the way home from the treatment he picks up a guy and has the best sex he's ever had. Sounds like the treatment worked hey? (and that sounds like a Mullah Nasrudin story).

I've read a little of Shah's history and he seems like a bit of a conman, came from nowhere, invented his history etc. A bit of a Gurdjieff character perhaps. Makes him a perfect religious leader.

In Sufism there's a lot of 'honour your teacher even if he asks you to kill your mother' stuff, the kind of thing you find in Tibetan tantra. Actually your teacher is more likely to tell you to dye your prayer mat with wine - which is serious business in Islam.

colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Sunday, 8 June 2003 07:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

I used to think that Idries Shah came to all this stuff through Gurdjieff (via J.G. Bennet), but then if his brother is a real live Sufi teacher in whose group ordinary Afghan Muslims would be involved?--it makes me think that he's not a con. (Granted, the whole tradition could be a con, or at least partly so, in my view.)

Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 8 June 2003 13:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

twenty-one years pass...

I was in a bookshop yesterday and saw a book called Contes Derviches by Idries Shah which looked intriguing. So picked it up to see if I could follow it at all not being totally fluent in French. It seemed I could from looking at a few paragraphs in different places. So might go back and pick it up.
I just thought it would be one more book to add to my to read piles and I don't think it had been priced yet.

But did seem interesting in a way I hope wasn't overly orientalising.
I find the idea of sufism intriguing . Like a real O mind connection with God. Breaking down conscious thought to get there. If I'm thinking right. Which is where the popular stereotype spinning dervish thing comes from I think, trying to reach an ecstatic state of communication with one's deity and escape the mundane, like.

might see if I can find the book in English too though.

Stevo, Sunday, 2 February 2025 12:05 (one week ago) link

I wonder if the Sufi commune in East Anglia that Richard and Linda Thompson stayed with still exists..... Not that Linda's view on that period is very encouraging: "...white middle-class people trying to punish themselves, and everybody else. It taught me a lot. To stay away from sects, mostly."

Bob Six, Sunday, 2 February 2025 13:20 (one week ago) link


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