frank kogan needs to know the diff between a pub and a bar

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and i am hardly the man to tell him...

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 12:45 (seventeen years ago) link

however i think in the final analysis it's this: a pub has carpet and a bar has none

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 12:46 (seventeen years ago) link

No! Many pubs have no carpet.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 12:49 (seventeen years ago) link

And I am sure that the American Bar at the Savoy is not a pub.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 12:50 (seventeen years ago) link

But maybe it has no carpet anymore. I haven't been for thirteen years. But hotel bars generally..

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 12:51 (seventeen years ago) link

how abt this: when you remove the carpet from a pub it still feels like a pub, but if you put a carpet into a bar it wd be WRONG

not including hotel bars obv, they are a third thing entirely

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 12:53 (seventeen years ago) link

What about the upstairs Spanish bar?

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 12:56 (seventeen years ago) link

what about it?

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 12:57 (seventeen years ago) link

It has a carpet I think. But it is wrong, so this does not spoil your thesis.

I think pubs, even if they don't have a 'Dog and Duck' type name, still have to have enough pubby decor trappings in terms of the mirrors, tables, coving, carpet etc. A pub is maybe just a look to a bar.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 12:59 (seventeen years ago) link

You can just tell

Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:00 (seventeen years ago) link

names is a good direction to take this thread in now we've established and agreed on the existential basiXoRz

pubs have names where you have no idea* why anything wd be called that (partial exception that really isn't: monarch's names, long forgotten military slebs — clearly you do know why, here, except you don't know why STILL... eg who gives a toss enuff abt William IV to go into a place named for him?): by contrast bars have names where you can tell the sensibility being drawn in, for it is here and now and close by in the world

*unless you've researched it or stuff

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:04 (seventeen years ago) link

You can indeed, Andrew. It's like indie music and love.

Someone point me in the direction of the ontological theory that explains how classes of things do not have to be definable by a set of rules. It's family resemblances, innit?

Mark s's quest is entertaining but fruitless.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:08 (seventeen years ago) link

pubs have names where you have no idea* why anything wd be called that

Unless it's a really *obvious* name. My local pub is named after the palace just down the road, which is also the name of the street it's on. It's definitely a pub.

(as Andrew said, you can just tell).

caitlin (caitlin), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:10 (seventeen years ago) link

But Mark, what of something like 'The Slug and Lettuce'? That obviously imitates the pub style name, and to an outsider would seem equally impenetrable. Yet we know that name belongs to a chain and was picked by a marketing team, and can tell the 'sensibility being drawn in'. Yet it is still a pub, is it not? A faux-pub is still a pub.

Is All Bar One a pub or a bar? If the latter, what of the Piano & Pitcher?

Another thing - a pub can't be 'upstairs', 'downstairs' or otherwise tucked away. It must present itself boldly.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:14 (seventeen years ago) link

no i don't mean you don't know what the inspiration for the name was: often you do – what i mean is, you don't know why someone thought calling the place this (ie going along with the inspiration) made it a place people wd want to go to...

eg calling it after a nearby palace: as a naming strategy it's kind of random and self-deprecating surely?

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:16 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes, but my point re:Slug & Lettuce still stands.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:17 (seventeen years ago) link

slug and lettuce = corporate attempt to rebrand a pub as a bar

certainly the one in angel IS a bar

all bar one and the pitcher and piano are both bars/restaurants surely? (haven't been in a p&p for ages so forget)

BEING ABLE TO SEE IN: you can see into a bar from the street but not a pub!!

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:20 (seventeen years ago) link

there's a direct relationship between their attitude to serving food and the presence of carpets btw

if the food is merely an adjunct activity, on whatever scale, then the carpet stays = no thought has been given to spillage

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:22 (seventeen years ago) link

But pubs serve food more then bars!

Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:26 (seventeen years ago) link

With my example; the name of the palace is also used as the name of this part of the city. If you were going to open a pub here, it's an obvious name to give it.

This might be an exception. I can only think of one other pub with a v. obvious name like that; all the other drinking places named after their location I know are bars.

caitlin (caitlin), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:26 (seventeen years ago) link

I still think of those chain pubs (S&L,P&P, possibly ABO) as pubs rather than bars. What do others think?

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:28 (seventeen years ago) link

And what of the Firkin pubs? Or smaller scale chains like the Tup? Mark is being an indie pub snob.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Most pubs have bars, but not all bars are pubs, most pubs are not bars. < /stupid IQ test style>

jel -- (jel), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:35 (seventeen years ago) link

haha no i prefer bars to pubs obv

it's not abt whether they serve food or not, it's about whether serving food is considered so central to the activity that the carpet needs to go

this quest is meaningless unless we accept that some changes cause a bar to become a pub (or vice versa: is that possible?)

(otherwise you just draw up two big lists and say everything in this column is a pub, in that a bar)

caitlin i still don't see why it's an OBVIOUS name: yes i know it's a fairly common naming strategy, but the roots of the reasoning are clouded — why is calling yr pub the same as the area it's in a thing to do?

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Pubs have cider on draught. Bars do not. End of debate

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:41 (seventeen years ago) link

is beer food or drink?

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:42 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm beginning to think bars/pubs are drastically different in NZ. Both of them.

Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:43 (seventeen years ago) link

are pork scratchings food or trappings?

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:43 (seventeen years ago) link

I think I kind of distinguish on the basis of the building: if the building is obviously a place that sells booze, and that's its whole purpose (maybe with living quarters upstairs), it's a pub. A bar is a portion of a building not solely for selling booze. This is why hotel bars are bars, or places like the Spanish bar are bars rather than pubs, and why the attempts to create proper British pubs within train stations and airports instead produce bars.

I can prove none of this, and I'll be interested if someone can give me counter-examples.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:44 (seventeen years ago) link

haha they should change its name and call it THE GATWICK and put in frosted glass and carpet at all terminals

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:46 (seventeen years ago) link

is beer food or drink?

Both.

Nicole (Nicole), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:48 (seventeen years ago) link

surely lots of london pubs are merely inserted in the shopfront row between banks and record shops, and what goes on upstairs is not necessarily connected at all

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:48 (seventeen years ago) link

to me:

a bar is bright and horribly clean. Has some sort of weird modern name.

a pub is old and smells of beer. Has a trad sounding name.

I prefer pubs, but then I only ever go to pubs when it is a FAP.

jel -- (jel), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:48 (seventeen years ago) link

City pubs often aren't dedicated buildings. My local is on the ground floor of a tenement block, with flats above it.

caitlin (caitlin), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:49 (seventeen years ago) link

how could a bar become a pub? is it actually possible?

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh, and: surely naming a pub after the local district is a more obvious name than some random 19th century admiral or whatever?

Sometimes pubs become bars after "refurbishment". I was in a bar last night which had previously been a Firkin. Whether Firkins are pubs or not; the new reincarnation of the place is *definitely* a bar.

caitlin (caitlin), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:53 (seventeen years ago) link

Is there another choice pub - bar - ???

jel -- (jel), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:54 (seventeen years ago) link

- all bar one.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 13:57 (seventeen years ago) link

pubs can certainly become bars, it's the other way round that puzzles me

"let's call our pub the hackney!"
"why would that attract anyone? ppl who live here already know which pubs they want to go to, and ppl who don't are surely by defn not attracted to being in places with the name 'hackney' — or they WOULD live here"
"i know — the name isn't there to attract a clientele, bcz it's a pub and that's not what pub names do!!"
"aha i get it: the hackney it is"

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:01 (seventeen years ago) link

Bars = inevitable outcome of entropy.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:03 (seventeen years ago) link

pubs have old blokes with their own pewter tankards behind the bar, they bring in their dog. barstaff are local. Rod Stewart is on the jukebox (which doesn't work). There is no champagne or fuckin chargrilled chicken tortillas available.

bars usually have the obligatory australian/irish/student barman and they do not sell 4 pint carryouts.

- and don't get me started on giant fuckin jenga players..!

sundaybloodysunday, Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:03 (seventeen years ago) link

this is about commodification isn't it?

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:05 (seventeen years ago) link

Isn't a pub defined by the bars it has? like a saloon, a lounge, a public bar etc. Therefore, I think if a bar used these guidelines it could be a pub, but this alone is not enough to win the battle for hearts and minds.

jel -- (jel), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:05 (seventeen years ago) link

pubs have old blokes with their own pewter tankards behind the bar, they bring in their dog. barstaff are local. Rod Stewart is on the jukebox (which doesn't work). There is no champagne or fuckin chargrilled chicken tortillas available.

Have you invented a time machine? Can I come?

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Jel, you too are living in the 1970s!

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:07 (seventeen years ago) link

"those punters and that carpet and this name have all been here since 1596, gathering fungus" = it is a pub

"wasn't this place called [xxx] last week?" = it is a bar

but then of course the grey area is way bigger than decided area, which is no good to frank bcz not a good guide to how we use the words deep into the grey area, as we clearly do

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:14 (seventeen years ago) link

Except you think the Slug and Lettuce is a bar!

I was serious about my cider on draught thing. I don't think he can go far wrong with that criterion. Soon he will learn the difference at first sight. Go on, give me counterexamples to the cider rule that don't come from the disputed chain pub/bar area.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:18 (seventeen years ago) link

slug and lettuce is in grey area clearly!! (= not called that since 1596!)

cider on draught is an interesting criterion bcz it clearly CAN'T be judged prior to arrival (ie it as an element of "content" rather than "packaging") => i deem it epiphenomenal but only by hunchwork

("content" vs "packaging" is hardly a cast-iron opposition of course, since the ppl attracted by the packaging of an establishment swiftly go on to make up its content)

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:23 (seventeen years ago) link

This is so easy. Just apply the Complicated Drink Test.

In a bar, I can ask for a white Russian or some vodka/cranberry combo and get what I've asked for. In a pub, they will have to ask me how to make one or I will take one look around and see that there is no way it's gonna happen so choose something else (the amount of times I have had to tell some pub-ning how to build the perfect Bloody Mary...arrgh).

Also pub staff ask you if you want ice in your drink if it involves shorts and barstaff don't, it's part of the service.

AB1, S&L, P&P are all PUBS albeit 'feminised' pubs. I hate them ALL.

suzy (suzy), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:28 (seventeen years ago) link

haha quality of bar staff makes the ica bar TOTALLY a PUB suzy, that won't fly

mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 14:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh damn. Good point Ricky.

Anna (Anna), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:25 (fourteen years ago) link

bar is just one main 'bar' room, or a stupid trendy name that toffs use to call any place where people sit and drink ale.

ale is not (cf. v seldom) sold in bars!

haha this could go on for some time.

CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:28 (fourteen years ago) link

Or you can say that a pub is an establishment which sets out to accommodate a broad range of its local community while a bar tends to be more demographically focussed. Perhaps that would be better said as "a bar knows the word demogrpahic, a pub won't understand why it's relevant".

More arguments for the foundary's pubpshness.

Just because gezzers are shaved bald and rather gay looking does not detract from their geezerishness.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:36 (fourteen years ago) link

ale is most certainly sold in the 'bars' i've been in

Ste (Fuzzy), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:39 (fourteen years ago) link

Ed, the Foundary totally has a demographic, it's always full of arty hippies and the bar staff fit neatly into the same catagory.

Anna (Anna), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:40 (fourteen years ago) link

RT the point is that it's a continuum and by some measures Wetherspoon'ses are bars (retail premises for one). I generally do think of Wetherspoon'ses as bars, albeit ones which are done out to look like a version of an old fashioned pub.

The feeling The Foundry gives me is that it's aimed quite squarely at a Trendy Hoxton demographic. Edgy, y'know.

Tim (Tim), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:41 (fourteen years ago) link

and the geezers are not old enough!

Ste: but how many types? one's not enough

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:41 (fourteen years ago) link

Steve your ale measure is complete madness, by the way.

Tim (Tim), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:43 (fourteen years ago) link

Wetherspoons totally do tend to to accommodate a broad range of its local community though.

the thing is that all the factors (architecture/design, 'content'/decor, clientele, range of products on offer, entertainment facilities, general atmos, historical significance etc.) do not stand up on their own as signifiers, but you have to be able to tick enough boxes for a place to be a proper Pub imo.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:45 (fourteen years ago) link

That's what I was trying to get at, yes.

Tim (Tim), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:47 (fourteen years ago) link

(Or, y'know, a proper bar. There's nothing wrong with bars, I don't want to give the impression that I think that if booze vendors do things properly they'll end up being a pub but if they fail then they fall into the category 'bar'. They do different things.)

Tim (Tim), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:49 (fourteen years ago) link

gah ilx ate my great post which settled the argument once and for all. Now you will never know the truth.

Ste (Fuzzy), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:50 (fourteen years ago) link

You couldn't handle the truth.

Tim (Tim), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:52 (fourteen years ago) link

I agree, but there seems to be a sense out there that a 'good ol' British boozer' is superior to the 'modern bar aimed squarely at young adults' stereotype. And I think people end up defensive and vehement about their ideas of what makes a pub a pub and a bar a bar, though they may well stem from this conditioned and perpetuated notion that the former model is generally 'better'.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:53 (fourteen years ago) link

Pubs totally have demographics! Exhibit A = THE INTREPID FOX!

Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:53 (fourteen years ago) link

In the same way that ale is considered better than lager perhaps. (xpost)

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:54 (fourteen years ago) link

But the Intrepid Fox presumably didn't have that same demographic thirty years ago (assuming it did exist then!)

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:55 (fourteen years ago) link

OK it probably did

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:56 (fourteen years ago) link

if it looks like a home from the outside = pub.

there, that's my personal opinion.

Ste (Fuzzy), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:56 (fourteen years ago) link

bars are just cleaner versions of pubs, that serve fancy cocktails. other places are probably pubs.

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:58 (fourteen years ago) link

PUB IN A SHED!

Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 15 December 2005 11:59 (fourteen years ago) link

Foundry doesn't do cocktails, is quite dirty, but nor does it look like a home from the outside. Well done to them for fucking around with the parameters anyway!

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 15 December 2005 12:00 (fourteen years ago) link

and pubs generally have more tables, and less sofas

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 15 December 2005 12:01 (fourteen years ago) link

where is foundry? i don't think i've ever been there.

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 15 December 2005 12:02 (fourteen years ago) link

it's at the top of Great Eastern St., quite near Old Street tube.

this argument is a lot like the 'what makes a big club?' argument.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 15 December 2005 12:04 (fourteen years ago) link

big clubs = clubs that are bigger than small clubs.

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 15 December 2005 12:06 (fourteen years ago) link

how long is a thread?

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 15 December 2005 12:22 (fourteen years ago) link

I am delighted that we have had more Hopkins posts on this thread than in the last year of ILE. I am disappointed that we have got this far in such a precise debate without anyone offering a graph.

Key difference for me is defined by their answer to this question: "Can I have a pint of bitter please?"

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 15 December 2005 13:24 (fourteen years ago) link

70 posts xpost

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 15 December 2005 13:30 (fourteen years ago) link

wrong

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 15 December 2005 13:37 (fourteen years ago) link

oh steve i see what you meant now re: big clubs. i thought (i think partly due to the drinking establishment context of this thread) you meant clubs as in nightclubs, dancing places. as opposed to football clubs.

former can be defined by capacity i guess.

latter by spending potential, i suppose.

you can put a number to both, as your definition, and those near the threshold number are medium sized, which are neither big or small, and then the further from that number the bigger or smaller a club they are.

you can do that to define whether a piece of string is long or short, too. using some form of average (e.g. median) value of all pieces of strings in the world.

ken c (ken c), Thursday, 15 December 2005 13:39 (fourteen years ago) link

three months pass...
this might settle the whole foundry pub/bar thing:

http://www.fancyapint.com/main_site/thepubs/pub2178.html

toby (tsg20), Monday, 20 March 2006 13:09 (fourteen years ago) link

If you like the studied junkyard look

Errrrmmm... *studied*? I don't think so.

Hello Cthulhu (kate), Monday, 20 March 2006 13:11 (fourteen years ago) link

the FAP site reviewers sound just as much wankers as the people they're deriding on this and many other occasions.

Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 20 March 2006 13:15 (fourteen years ago) link

i like the picture they have it.

i dont often think about the outside. in that photo, it looks like birmingham 1975

charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 20 March 2006 13:23 (fourteen years ago) link

the description from that page sounds fitting for a bar.

ken c (ken c), Monday, 20 March 2006 13:27 (fourteen years ago) link

where is a good place to watch football? in strand/covent garden/soho. or notting hill.

which is preferred - bar or table?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 20 March 2006 13:36 (fourteen years ago) link

if in Notting Hill, the Cock And Bottle sounds okay.

Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 20 March 2006 13:42 (fourteen years ago) link

The only place within spitting distance of The Strand I'd watch the football is the tiny little Nell Gwynne: http://www.fancyapint.com/main_site/thepubs/pub1351.html

This is partly because it's not a "watch the football" pub, it just has a couple of screens which show (apparently) random sporting events. I really like it in there, haven't been in for ages.

Gabbneb are you calling some kind of FAP or did you decide not to?

Tim (Tim), Monday, 20 March 2006 13:55 (fourteen years ago) link

thanks for the suggestions. i was definitely going to check out the Nell Gwynne, and that Notting Hill place sounds great.

(I'd be well up (?) for a FAP if persons wanted to go to the trouble, but don't really know my schedule yet. I think I'm going to be free on a sat night (the 25), and perhaps the tuesday or wednesday of that week, but need to hear back from a friend and make some decisions first. I may or may not be going to a quiz night on the Sunday. Don't know where and I'm guessing it's not music-related.)

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 20 March 2006 14:01 (fourteen years ago) link

(oh, and i was tentatively planning on some pre or post-barbican drinking in clerkenwell on monday. i should probably start another thread or use a different thread, but want to get a better sense of my schedule first)

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 20 March 2006 14:04 (fourteen years ago) link

I don't think I ever looked UP enough to realize that's what the building housing the Foundry looks like!

Foundry remains stubbornly undesignatable for me - scuzzy - check, lots on draft - check, wouldn't order a white russian - check; yet the suspended bondage dolls and narrow demographic. I would just call it a "student pub" and be done with it except it's not right next to any school and everyone in there is about 30.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 20 March 2006 17:13 (fourteen years ago) link

i think "studied junkyard look" is fair enough in terms of the foundry. its just that i dont really have a problem with that.

they fail to mention that its probably one of the cheapest bars in the area, which for me is a great incentive. for that i am uninterested in their opinions on this point.

ambrose (ambrose), Monday, 20 March 2006 17:27 (fourteen years ago) link

i have decided to go to the foundry this week

i may also.....gotocamden

charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 20 March 2006 17:33 (fourteen years ago) link

The Lock in Camden is a bar masquerading as a pub.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 20 March 2006 17:40 (fourteen years ago) link

suspended bondage dolls

Where is this pub/bar exactly? ;-)

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Monday, 20 March 2006 18:45 (fourteen years ago) link

gareth, let me know on both scores, i also have to drink with mrs hand.

Ed (dali), Monday, 20 March 2006 18:45 (fourteen years ago) link

pub number 2178, fools

Ed (dali), Monday, 20 March 2006 18:46 (fourteen years ago) link

i really don't like the lock tavern.

lauren (laurenp), Monday, 20 March 2006 19:27 (fourteen years ago) link

The Lock's ok in the summer, when you can sit on the terrace, but the observation above is absolutely correct of the Lock, and applies to a good few other places in the Camden/Kentish Town area besides.

chap who would dare to be a stone cold thug (chap), Monday, 20 March 2006 19:30 (fourteen years ago) link


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