Edward Said's "Culture & Imperialism"

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nearly finished this - v.v. interesting/provocative/etc readings of Conrad/Kipling, Yeats (k-rad tilting), Camus, & so on - IknowIknowIknow I'm easily suckered by books like this (coughcoughpoliticalunconsciouscough) but it seems U&K (& perhaps optimistic - unsure if this is my nascent polyfuturism or whatevah) - yr thoughts?

Ess Kay (esskay), Monday, 9 December 2002 09:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

I haven't read any of Said's cultural criticism stuff. But yeah, sounds interesting.

DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 9 December 2002 09:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

I didn't think much of 'Orientalism', just sounded like rampant persecution complex to me (as in "everybody who's even THOUGHT about foreign countries is an evil exploiter") Reminds me of Nigel Tufnel and his guitar collection - "No, don't point at it! Actually don't even LOOK at it!" (Interdisciplinariness - an excuse just to throw in anything to back up a hypothesis?)

dave q, Monday, 9 December 2002 11:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

Interdisciplinariness - an excuse to not be so narrow minded (as long as you don't think you the tops at everything).

Pete (Pete), Monday, 9 December 2002 11:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

I realized the other day that not everyone hears "heart of darkness" and immediately thinks "eurocentric anti-colonialism born of defeat" because I somehow thought that everyone actually did.

So classic, I guess, because it isn't as obvious as I thought.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 9 December 2002 21:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

but which defeat?

mark s (mark s), Monday, 9 December 2002 22:55 (twenty-one years ago) link

Did he not write a book on Orientalism (entitled... Orientalism)? If so, what is it exactly about and is it ANY good?

nathalie (nathalie), Tuesday, 10 December 2002 07:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

Re 'Orientalism' - it seems to often be ppl who draw conclusions about history & geopolitics from THEIR reading of fictional works who are behind this unfortunate 'root causes' fad

dave q, Tuesday, 10 December 2002 07:47 (twenty-one years ago) link

heh C&I seems measured (yet urgent, unlike the measured soporifitee of +others) - just as (whatevah) about nationalism etc as the colonial.

& haha fad!

Ess Kay (esskay), Tuesday, 10 December 2002 09:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

(actually, I think Said is a Modernist, albeit one all for widening the scope of thee Project with deEurocentralization. hmmmn.) (I mean, he adores the canon; & quotes from TS Eliot at any given opportunity!)

Ess Kay (esskay), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 08:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

Well, foreshadowing of defeat perhaps -- I find it hard to view without looking slightly ahead to the Boer war and the victory that wasn't.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 21:48 (twenty-one years ago) link

two years pass...
revive
dave q said Re 'Orientalism' - it seems to often be ppl who draw conclusions about history & geopolitics from THEIR reading of fictional works who are behind this unfortunate 'root causes' fad
and i dont reckon thats true, e said wsnt saying that orientalism is the root cause of colonialism! just that its all part of the same culture, the fiction is tainted by the history and vice versa, is that fair?

jeremy jordan (cruisy), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:34 (nineteen years ago) link

uh, 'tainted'?

N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:36 (nineteen years ago) link

INFORMED then

jeremy jordan (cruisy), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:01 (nineteen years ago) link

fiction is produced outside of, but informed by, the general process of history?

N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:03 (nineteen years ago) link

how cd anything be outside of the process of history?? (how are you defining history?)

jeremy jordan (cruisy), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:12 (nineteen years ago) link

exactly my point!

N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:14 (nineteen years ago) link

haha uh well i thought it ws also my pt but i guess i worded it poorly. so , yeah fiction and history, INEXTRICABLY INTERTWINED BIG MASS OF GUMMY STUFF

jeremy jordan (cruisy), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:22 (nineteen years ago) link

which is a boring pt, im just wondering what dave q meant by his root causes fad and what does it have to do with e saids orientalism, i dont think said ws being root causy

jeremy jordan (cruisy), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:23 (nineteen years ago) link

root-causism is a bad hangover from mechanical 'base and superstructure' marxism. 'real history' [imperialism] "produces" 'ideology/superstructure' [books which LIE about imperialism]. the problem is you set out with a definite idea of the 'real process' before you begin. the books then live up (or not) to this assessment. you reduce literature to, uh, something else.

N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:27 (nineteen years ago) link

well do you think said is guilty of this?

jeremy jordan (cruisy), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:48 (nineteen years ago) link

dunno, don't know his stuff too well.

N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:50 (nineteen years ago) link

haha ok
anyone else??

jeremy jordan (cruisy), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:05 (nineteen years ago) link

the book really changed how i viewed things, it opened me up..said has a really impt way of saying, hey wait a minute, lets look at what these people are saying, what is kipling saying--yeah hes an imperial old bugger, but is thata reason to ashcan him. (adn even deeper, was he, i mean i dont think that we can ever know an authors or a readers attention but said gets closest. )

another victory for close reading.

(i read it waiting for a shrink while massively depressed at Toronto Western, so this might have made me like it more

anthony, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 15:41 (nineteen years ago) link

eleven years pass...

Reading this now and enjoying it. The idea of 'contrapuntal' reading and the music analogies work nicely in thinking about taking a more interdisciplinary or broader interpretive approach to reading (the canon or otherwise).

The book must have come across much more forcefully upon its publication as an intervention into the debates on the status of the canon, the (relative) novelty or at least intensification of pundits appearing on TV (or wider media outlets) to talk about foreign policy (e.g., Iraq), and what comes across as more rigidly defined specialization in language and comp lit departments (?).

Despite that, it's surprisingly aged well and provides a fruitful way of reading/re-reading.

Federico Boswarlos, Monday, 31 July 2017 16:02 (seven years ago) link

six years pass...

@MediocreDave
A colleague had to teach a class last week with Edward Said on the curriculum and was advised that, given the current 'situation', it would be better to brush over that bit and focus on other things. Everyone loves a decolonial syllabus as long as it doesn't feel at all relevant

xyzzzz__, Friday, 10 November 2023 12:10 (ten months ago) link

this feels crazy

horseshoe, Friday, 10 November 2023 13:59 (ten months ago) link

i taught Said to high school seniors a couple of years ago. seniors at a selective, expensive private school whose parents are American ruling class elites!

horseshoe, Friday, 10 November 2023 13:59 (ten months ago) link

to censor Said is to erase an entire field of study! are they coming for Fanon next?

horseshoe, Friday, 10 November 2023 14:12 (ten months ago) link

...i guess probably

horseshoe, Friday, 10 November 2023 14:12 (ten months ago) link

Probably. One isolated incident but interesting how it's happening now, when these texts are needed the most...

xyzzzz__, Friday, 10 November 2023 14:35 (ten months ago) link

it's so ugly to just be like: that dude is Palestinian; don't teach him. doesn't sound like it's even about his thought.

horseshoe, Friday, 10 November 2023 14:37 (ten months ago) link

that's racist and also so fucking typical of an academic culture which prides itself on entertaining "radical ideas" in a "makes you think" kind of way but shuts them down immediately (in spite of the wishes of most students and staff) as soon as they threaten to become less abstract than the administration is comfortable with. decolonization can only ever be a metaphor in these conditions. institutional responses to BLM have had a lot of this sort of attitude.

I haven't read that book yet so I don't know how much about Palestine specifically is in there but I wouldn't be surprised to hear the same thing said for Orientalism too (which is relevant in a relatively more oblique way) because both Said's work and ethnicity are just too difficult to deal with right now from an administrators' POV.

Left, Friday, 10 November 2023 14:41 (ten months ago) link

Culture and Imperialism is about lol Jane Austen and Joseph Conrad. Orientalism also not explicitly about Israel, though its schema are eminently applicable, particularly to the Western view of Palestinians and other Arabs.

horseshoe, Friday, 10 November 2023 14:44 (ten months ago) link

Culture and Imperialism's one of those books that Changed My Life.

it's a great book

horseshoe, Friday, 10 November 2023 14:50 (ten months ago) link

Said was also a babe, importantly

horseshoe, Friday, 10 November 2023 14:50 (ten months ago) link

it feels to me, in the United States, that this is a moment of Western liberals (and conservatives, I guess, but fuck 'em) finding the existence of Palestinians inconvenient. it makes me helplessly furious.

horseshoe, Friday, 10 November 2023 14:51 (ten months ago) link

xps they're coming for "post-colonial studies" in general and have been for a while - there has been an effort to link any critical analysis of colonialism with antisemitism and hatred of european civilisation. those two concepts are constantly and ahistorically being brought together by people who know more straightforward celebrations of colonialism are a bad look. they've had some success with this strategy- Germany in particular fucking loves it for painfully obvious reasons.

Left, Friday, 10 November 2023 14:55 (ten months ago) link

ten months pass...

Edward said's [back] about hassan nasrallah; pic.twitter.com/X3OSNNts8D

— Irhamkashmiri (@Mirza__Irham) September 29, 2024

xyzzzz__, Monday, 30 September 2024 08:36 (four days ago) link


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