Michael Jackson is "evil"

for what it's worth literally a month ago I had a conversation about the R. Kelly documentary in which I'd said something along the lines of "it didn't hurt Michael Jackson's reputation permanently" and their response was "oh, that's not the same, it wasn't proven that it happened and so on and so forth." this was before the documentary was out, but the timing was strange

this post from some british journo is going around which made me think twice for a second and then i got my head on straight and am back in the fuck mj camp
https://www.facebook.com/CharlesThomsonJournalist/posts/10156642832831998

fwiw, I'd love to go to a mike t-diva dance party.

re: that dude's FB post -- i dunno, it seems plausible to me that MJ did it and that his victims might not have told consistent stories over the years. like, "these guys have changed their stories!" is a good lawyer's defense but in the real world ppl forget stuff and don't remember dates or get details wrong, and that's especially true when you're talking about things that happened when you were a kid.

When you’re talking about extremely confusing and traumatising things that happened when you’re a kid, at a time when you have carefully been removed from normal life including regular markers of the passage of time

jed otm btw

I watched and I believe those boys/now men/still boys. I'll miss the music, I'll miss "I can't help it", but I'm canceling it either indefinitely or forever.

I play at a place, monthly not weekly as Mike does (and not the club, sic, just a bar gig) and I presently cannot imagine playing MJ. As Mike said you don't know people's triggers but also I think you would, frankly, get an angry reaction from some punters and who wants to deal with that for the sake of playing these tracks?

I mentioned sic there because he knows the club. He came to it once and didn't tell me he was there and it's a major regret of mine that I didn't know!

https://www.wsj.com/articles/simpsons-episode-featuring-michael-jacksons-voice-to-be-pulled-11552007802

just realized that's behind the WSJ firewall, but this covers it too:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/simpsons-episode-guest-starring-michael-jackson-pulled-circulation-1193215

I was born in '81, the only MJ songs I remember hearing as a kid were "Thriller" and "Billie Jean" on the radio every so often. By the time I was 10-11 he seemed like an uncool weirdo, no one at school cared, I didn't care.

I mean... Bad and Dangerous were both worldwide #1, multiplatinum albums and the premiere of the "Black and White" video was the most-viewed ever at that time. The amount of hype it generated still stands out in my mind.

i think one problem with talking about this stuff in regard to artists of the 60s and 70s is that it can be hard to find reliable reporting on a lot of it. like i assume that led zeppelin did lots of terrible things even besides the awful story already mentioned here, but i don't know how accurate or fair any of the books on them are supposed to be. or the bowie thing, iirc the only info we have on that is that lori maddox mentioned it in an interview.

Afaik, the band are famously critical of, and claim there are plenty of fabrications in, both Hammer of the Gods and Stairway to Heaven; the former seems like it almost definitely has to contain a good portion of bullshit. (P sure the 'mud shark story' has been debunked, for a start.)

Interesting...

Corey Feldman Changes Stance On Michael Jackson Doc ‘Leaving Neverland’ https://t.co/vChYtUf8CO pic.twitter.com/c4buBbMqVC

— Deadline Hollywood (@DEADLINE) March 8, 2019

(P sure the 'mud shark story' has been debunked, for a start.)

yes, it was debunked to being a red snapper, not a mud shark

(I share this regret jed but did not know in advance I was going to be able to make it!)

i never heard anything other than "red snapper" because "lol she was a redhead and the carpet matched the drapes"

“I’m going to put this red snapper into your red snapper” was Cole’s quote of himself iirc

”...Let’s see how your red snapper likes this red snapper!” That was it. It was the nose of the fish, and that girl must have come 20 times. But it was nothing malicious or harmful, no way! No one was ever hurt.

As Mike said you don't know people's triggers but also I think you would, frankly, get an angry reaction from some punters and who wants to deal with that for the sake of playing these tracks?

Absolutely, I should have mentioned that too - I've been visualising a good mood turning sour, and who wants that indeed?

Sic, first, even if you take that quote as definitive proof of anything (which uh), it comes from Richard Cole, not from a band member. The story in Hammer of the Gods, which is what I was commenting on, was that the members of the band were responsible and the acts it describes go further than what Cole describes himself doing (and would have probably resulted in injury). Second, Carmine Appice has also claimed that he was the one responsible. Afaik, no women have ever come forward to say they were involved.

I've said before on ilx that I do consider what the band did to Ellen Sander horrifying and defensible, and much worse than any of these groupie stories. (Obv doesn't affect my appreciation of the music.)

that's probably why I said Cole

Why did they have a fish in the hotel room?

*indefensible xps

OK, but, then, even Cole was debunking something more than just the type of marine creature involved.

relative to the story in HOTG

Why did they have a fish in the hotel room?

― Trϵϵship, Friday, March 8, 2019 1:05 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You could fish from your balcony.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edgewater

I guess it's not really an ironclad debunking as much as that a story that always sounded like bs has multiple competing versions with afaik no one still defending the original version and no evidence in its favour.

the grossest thing about that was how giddy it made Frank Zappa, who immediately wrote a terrible song about it

Sure, but he did that all the time about everything.

Ha, I went to look it up and realized that I used to own the album it's on but, weirdly, had no clear memory of it.

Lucky you.

I don’t get why it’s even considered a good story and not just gross and weird.

I mean... Bad and Dangerous were both worldwide #1, multiplatinum albums and the premiere of the "Black and White" video was the most-viewed ever at that time. The amount of hype it generated still stands out in my mind.

― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Thursday, March 7, 2019 6:42 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i also remember when the "Scream" video debuted and it was this enormous event, followed of course by You Are Not Alone. "Scream" was his comeback (and a pushback against those who made the initial allegations against him).

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/08/entertainment/simpsons-michael-jackson/index.html
i recorded this on cassette tape off of the television and listened to it like 8 zillion times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLIUlaJsGwU

seeing that was covered upthread now. everything is terrible.

My wife's name is Lisa and has had a massive hate-on for MJ for years because she has believed that he abused thiae kids. Ever since she got on FB, I have gotten up early on her birthday and pre-emptively scanned her account to eliminate well-meaning posts of that clip.

those

ok can we derail this thread into talking about invasion of privacy and access to the social media accounts of significant others? (｡￫∀￩｡)

but not really tho

This is a mod we are talking about too. He is probably doing this to all of our facebook accounts.

oh shit, let me clarify: by messaging the people and asking them to take down the posts!

phew, lol

I mean, privacy issues notwithstanding, someone could get hurt feelings if they thought my SO was ignoring or deleting their birthday posts off her wall. Everybody involved has been real understanding.

I don’t get why it’s even considered a good story and not just gross and weird.

by whom

i also remember when the "Scream" video debuted and it was this enormous event, followed of course by You Are Not Alone. "Scream" was his comeback (and a pushback against those who made the initial allegations against him).

― omar little,

Comeback from what? His last American hit, "Will You Be There," surpassed expectations and rode the top ten for a while, thanks to Free Willy.

i assume omar doesn't mean commercial comeback but coming back from the first allegations

oh! Makes sense

my recollection was that the legal issues all started up in earnest after Dangerous and Will You Be There? But I could be wrong. Maybe "comeback" should be in "scare quotes", since he was coming back from the accusations of sexual abuse and the single was a pretty clear attempt to confront them angrily.

brad otm -- i think Dangerous was a huge album but the allegations obviously put his career to a halt for a minute before HIStory (which did sell 20 million worldwide, wtf, but it could be argued it was maybe the most New Jersey of all New Jerseys, of which MJ arguably had three perhaps?)

coming down from the extreme Thriller heights required a three-step New Jersey process perhaps.

i recall HIStory being a HUGE deal (and i bought it!) and Dangerous maybe not performing at the level people were hoping for.

MJ's worldwide sales figures go something like:

Thriller - 66 million
Bad - 35 million
Dangerous - 32 million
HIStory - 20 million

I assume HIStory's sales figures were boosted a bit by the double-CD = 2 unit sales?

well not to mention the 2nd disc was a greatest hits comp which gave a whole new generation reason to buy it. whose decision was that, anyway - MJ or the record company?