new-nu-Who: RTD2 (Doctor Who on telly 2023-?)

For discussion of the second era of Russell T Davies writing & producing and Julie Gardner and Jane Tranter producing Dr. Who.

So far 01: four wraparound "Tales Of The TARDIS" intros for streaming repeats of Earthshock, first one here

(wraparounds for Mind Robber and Fenric were written by Pete McTighe, wraparounds for Varos, 3Docs and Time Meddler by Phil Ford.)

So far 02: A comedy sketch for Children In Need

Today: The Star Beast (adapting elements of the Mills & Gibbons strip from 1980, based on a rejected Mills & Wagner TV pitch, collected in The Iron Legion paperback), the first of three weekly 60th anniversary Tennant/Tate specials, now on BBC iPlayer and now or soon on Disney Plus anywhere else that has Disney Plus.

(A Christmas special with Ncuti Gatwa in the lead is likely to air one month from today, but not confirmed yet.)


Previous chitchat here.

we kinda thought this was trash

I really loved it, not just for nostalgia, and even the bits that I rolled my eyes at (binary/non-binary) I was at least aware that it would be winding up the worst people in the world.

it all felt like setup

maybe we should have just waited to watch until next week

There were six Tales of the TARDIS episodes.

Fun! Liked it.

Eyeroll/winding up OTM

Thought this was run of the mill RTD as a story without any particular lols but otherwise doing its job and the TARDIS interior was pretty cool.

Agree it was run of the mill in some ways but what a relief after the last lot. And it still leaped over the low bar set by Chibnall.

I am looking forward to (allegedly) however RTD lampshades Flux destroying the universe.

There were six Tales of the TARDIS episodes.

I believe if you tally the six that I listed, they will add up to six

four wraparound "Tales Of The TARDIS" intros

If only I had thought to include any other words in that sentence, or post.

this was fine, perhaps even good - my 11 year old watched happily (although I think he slumped over a bit during that last TARDIS chat)

was surprised by how continuity-heavy it was, i thought they might try and make a tidier jumping-on point for a new Disney audience

This was great

Somehow I completely missed that Rose was trans in the promo run-up; I thought they handled that very Whoishly

Somehow I completely missed that Rose was trans in the promo run-up; I thought they handled that very Whoishly

as someone who likes, essentially, two of RTD's first-round episodes (and hugely enjoyed or admired every piece of his output since), I went into this expecting to at best quietly respect his ability to craft broad, populist entertainment that isn't to my taste in same.

that said, twelve seconds in: omg the recap, the exposition, the emotion, what a piece of craft for that returning anniversary audience

thirteen seconds in: AN OLD DOCTOR WHO MATERIALIZED DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM CYBERDOG rusty you pop whore ilu

murray can fuck off tho

12.5 seconds in: mills AND gibbons story credit IN THE OPENING TITLES heart eyes emoji

one hour later: what a delight. playing the nostalgia mystery both as a completely new riff on old-doctor-for-anniversary trope and drawing back the casual general audience. madeley/tennant chemistry not only immediately on the level of pertwee/unit (in a way the TV version of KLS never approached) but also reminiscent of the only good thing abt Partners In Crime. the meep/wrarth twist handled fantastically by both the script and Margolyes. every time I eyerolled at something being handled way too obvi, I was won over to the big emotion play within seconds. Talalay getting to play comedy in a way that suits her but she's not been given on the show before (could have been much more of this but it was still nice to see). Tate absolutely COOKING. Shaun new MVP of the family-used-as-exposition-through-character. (and after Bill looked SO like Sharon that I wondered if it even occurred to Moffatt, there are enough connex in the Sharon -> Bill -> nu-Rose sequence that it adds extra anniversary fan-candy nuance)

lol @ me: during the crawl through the terrace attics, I was like "now THIS is how you use this setting for stakes, unlike in my possible favourite ep of all time" then it being overturned TWICE in a way that would have made me go triple-aldo in the OG RTD era.

and oh yeah the new TARDIS interior! I rarely care much about the revisions, but as an '80s Who baby, huge white walls that are mostly roundels FEELS "right" in a way that also pushed happy buttons for the anniversary.

otoh “just let go”.

TARDIS interior was cool tho.

was surprised by how continuity-heavy it was, i thought they might try and make a tidier jumping-on point for a new Disney audience

I didn't see anything of the Chibnall run but have seen all of the first RTD and the Moffat series. Is anything Chibnall necessary or advantageous to jump back in with the new specials?

All you need to know is that the Doctor was a woman at one point, really

(two points?)

ha nope not required, you are well-advised to stay away from the chibnall era! new ep really only refers back to the end of the Donna run - and there are plenty of (slightly awkward) refreshers - i guess the basic setup is basic enough and simply explained - donna can’t remember the doctor - but all the extra detail and lingo was quite confusing for the very casual viewers in my house

i, as usual, lost interest about 30 minutes in. and having watched a dozen or so of the old 25 minute episodes i think a large part of what's missing, for me, is the cliffhangers (along with the more digestible length)

nice to see DT back though. thought new tardis was too big if anything, not that it matters given the nature of the thing.

murray can fuck off tho

Honestly think this guy has ruined Who far more than Chibnall. The new theme is terrible and within minutes was sick of the usual overblown score.

Although it was trailer-spoiled I did like the ET bit. Don't suppose there was a bit like that in the comic story so it turns out Spielberg ripped it off?

And I am looking forward to the NPH/Celestial Toymaker one honest.

So RTD technobabble is back in a big way huh?

This was mostly decent, Tate and Tennant are such a fun team.

i may have to watch that ending again but i don’t know how I feel about the implication that the metacrisis made Rose trans, and that was also maybe why she chose her name. (Also I don’t buy that she wouldn’t get into the Tardis with Donna and the Doctor at the end.)

I harp about this a lot, but in his New Adventures novel, RTD had a character from the future bone a bone a gay character in the middle of a stakeout at the height of the AIDS epidemic so that the 80s character could develop HIV-immunity from an injection of 30th-century sperm so that whole denouement read to me like someone was reining RTD’s worse storytelling impulses in a bit

I guess it was a blowjob rather than full-on anal but still wildly out of character

holy shit

I must have some kind of Stockholm Syndrome with Murray Gold, because although he's still very annoying, it feels much more like "real Who is back" when he's clodding over everything.

The new theme tune is multiple squares of OTT, but sort of exciting too? The original Ecclestone theme is still his best one.

My personal cringezone with New Adventures is Ace storming off at the end of "Love and War", a very terrible bit of writing (by Paul Cornell)

This was merely boring instead of an immediate hate watch which is a clear improvement over the last couple seasons. 50-something minutes felt long, and some of the scenes (rescue from Chez Noble) could have been edited way down.

I really enjoyed this

I loved the pacing, like backstory/new alium invasion/old characters/new characters; it’s all moving along on rails simultaneously in an adept way

Donna/Doctor moments were all gold, such good emotional moments throughout from all of them honestly

A timely reminder that once upon a time even generic Doctor Who episodes were very entertaining!

murray can fuck off tho

His action cues are no worse than standard Hollywood scores really, but when he goes for emotional or god forbid comical it's unbearable.

Yeah was watching unicorn and the wasp last week. Very generic but lots of fun. It has a certain ease with just existing on simple terms, which Moffat’s period struggled with

when he goes for emotional or god forbid comical it's unbearable

I counted at least three scenes where I essentially thought "There's some really good acting here with stakes. Sure wish I could pay attention to it because of all the fucking sonic glop over it."

(Fun episode, I'll add.)

Also, a massive bravo for choosing his first episode back to send an unequivocal message to young trans fans.

And enjoyed how Rose's identity was actually used in the plot resolution rather than just being a thing her character was (Admittedly in a slightly hokey way, but hey it's Dr Who)

a LOT of oof in the resolution, but the Doctor's "oh, I do that!" re pronouns earlier was such a beast line that it outweighs anything else.

agree w those last three posts

I had a disparaging comment about RTD’s usual mode of subtlety that read as mean to unintended targets when I started typing it but suffice to say it could have been about a billion times more awful, so I’m relieved that I only ended up rolling my eyes a bit

xxpost yeah i liked that line !

Tennant is extremely comfortable in this role, it’s a joy to watch him just dominate the screen even when taking the sonic screwdriver to new levels of wtf

on dr who confidential there's a great bit where the writers of the original comic are visiting and DT basically interrupts to tell them how much of a fan he is

(Dave Gibbons was the artist - equally important as an author, just noting ftr.)

(and wagner wasn't there. yeah, was using shorthand)

I am seeing some absolutely DERANGED ranting about this harmless, charming episode, mostly centered around the “men can’t let things go” line which honestly I didn’t even register when I watched it, possibly because I was also wrangling my kids

this & the ruby christmas episode were ghe weakest episodes of the season. not actively bad, just kinda (shrug).

I think both Gatwa and Gibson were tremendous this season and in the finale, but the writing let them both down.

I like the idea of Ruby and her mother being just ordinary people (and I appreciated RTD saying this was his response to Rey’s arc in The Rise of Skywalker - I too much preferred the ending in TLJ), but the way we got there felt like the audience was being played and not with the usual dumb misdirects/red herrings like S Triad.

Like what was the deal with the snow? What was Ruby’s “hidden song” that scared the Maestro? Why did the Doctor’s memory of the night changed? And who the hell turns to point at a sign to choose a name like THAT when there’s no one else around? chalking it all up to everyone including sutekh just being curious and nosy about a mystery was so goofy (also lol at the thought of 15yo girls going around wearing oversized black hooded capes in 2004)

I said it upthread but please, enough characters/companions who are also riddles- especially if these are the kind of answers we’re going to get. I don’t give a fuck at all about who Mrs Flood is and the thought of her being the mystery next season is already tiring me out

good season overall though. As others mentioned, it’s nice that it feels like Doctor Who again and is trying to do different things even if not all of it works

would be interested to see what it looked like with someone younger at the helm tho (and someone who wasn’t steeped in classic who)

I would love for them to pick Kate Herron (co-writer of “Rogue” this season, former Loki showrunner, also directed several episodes of Sex Education)

“Rogue” was silly but very enjoyable, which is true of everything I’ve seen of her work - she’s good at balancing sci-fi and comedy, and knows when to let episodes breathe with quieter character moments

Still wish it had been Mathieson-with-Dollard-as-regular-star-writer from 2012, presumably-Dollard from 2015 or ‘17, and an unknown-in-2011 female writer now. but mainly it’s insane to think that the show has been in both a post-Moffat holding pattern slash retrenchment AND a consistent ratings success in that mode for t h i r t e e n years now! longer than nearly every programme in the history of television human communication

Roz otm about the mother resolution being a total cop out, while the general RTD “ordinary people” principle being sound. but he’s never been bothered by constraints (unlike moffat who perhaps loves building up constraints too much)

for some reason the cape and the pointing bothered me more than any of the other factors.

also, killing everyone then bringing them all back to life is a bore.

other than that i enjoyed it! gatwa is incredible.

Moffat's writing science fiction, RTD fantasy IHIBIDTAE

I get the comparison to The Last Jedi, but that was an act of criticism - RTD is both Abrams and Johnson here.

As an adoptee who met their mother in later life, my hair was standing on end for the last bit - there's a long process, for a reason, why you don't walk up to someone and say "Hi, I'm your kid!"

There's a few people on Threads giving it "aha the cause of your heightened expectations is yourself and the modern internet" - this would be a stronger argument if the previous episode wasn't titled "The Legend of Ruby Sunday"

I do agree with the point I saw over there that this would be a better season if it was 12 episodes or so - and if RTD (or other writers) took the time to do more with Ruby that isn't about the Mystery. People liked Clara, but they liked her a lot more after she stopped being the mysterious girl. I uh understand that this lesson doesn't seem to have been learned for the next season.

xp at me: 2016 for Mathieson, nine years of holding

I enjoyed this but for most of the episode I kept imagining my younger self making a Disney Who drinking game where one of the rules is “drink every time the Doctor cries”

It was strange to hear Ruby saying she was from Tameside. I’m from Tameside and I’ve literally never heard anyone else on tv say they were from Tameside…but I’ve also literally never heard anyone in real life say they were from Tameside either, because it was only invented in 1974 and nobody really believes in it, everyone just describes themselves as being from Ashton or Stalybridge or whichever county their town was in before it got amalgamated into a Metropolitan Borough. Millie Gibson is from Broadbottom though, maybe that’s why she didn’t want to be more specific.

Anyway yeah I’m usually fine with RTD doing vibes over plot logic, I still think 73 Yards was a great example of that…but it means if the vibes are shit (as they were for both parts of the finale, everything turned up to MAX OVERWROUGHT without feeling earned) then the whole thing collapses. There have been worse RTD season endings though! I’d argue the only one that wasn’t fundamentally bad was Eccleston’s.

So I have never in my life watched a single episode of Dr. Who. I have a general awareness of its premise, and the level of fandom it sparks, but I've just never watched it.

My 11yo son for some reason got excited about it a few weeks ago so we decided to watch. At first we tried the first episode of the Christopher Eccleston season (someone rec'd that we start there). It was OK - a little goofy, bad special effects, and just generally... dumber than I expected it to be. My son liked it fine but he decided he just wanted to watch the new season, so we started with the Church on Ruby Road. It was better - better effects, Gatwa is magnetic, and Ruby was very good too. But it was still kinda dumb with the cheeky goblins and the musical number? But my son liked it so we kept going and went to Space Babies -- still dumb! And the Beatles episode... getting better but at this point I am really scratching my head at the level of fandom this show inspires, as it really felt to me like a kids show. I even told my son that I'd keep watching with him, but he could just start watching it on his own too if he wanted to really devour it. (It is summer vacation after all - he has time on his hands!). He wanted to watch with me so we settled in to watch BOOM and I was NOT ready for that episode. The tension! And the doctor's visceral anger at the soldiers for believing in god! So now I'm thrown. Next night we watch 78 yards and we both were on the edge of our seats. He has definitely never watched a show that was that creepy. I thought he was going to have nightmares that night.

So, we just kept going and watched the rest over the last few days and we both got very sucked in. I agree with a lot of what's said upthread - namely that you REALLY can't spend much time trying to suss out the plot logic or how some of these harrowing situations suddenly resolve themselves. I think I'm actually glad not to know all the back story this first time around, nor to be weighed down by comparing to past seasons or being distracted by continuity holes. It's just a fun ride while you're on it and especially fun to watch through my son's eyes as he feels like he's really discovered something (which had not already been discovered by his older brother).

My son now wants to go back all the way to the first episode from 1963. So wish me luck on this journey, however long it might last....

My 15 yo has lost all interest in this show but I did manage to snag him at the right moment for 73 Yards and he liked it a lot.. but I think he's starting to define himself against it, as something he used to watch when he was younger. Which is a shame because this season is so much better than the Chibz era

That story is the essence of Doctor Who and one of the reasons why it has endured for so long. The framework supports every type of story you can imagine from the goofy to the terrifying.

I will warn you that the pacing of the classic series is GLACIAL compared to the new series, where the typical story length is half to a third as long, but if you allow the stories to unfold at their own pace rather than being impatient with them, you end up with some absolutely fantastic stories, and the standalone “An Unearthly Child” episode IMO stands up as the pilot that introduces you into the world of the Doctor.

great post pgwp - really captures something good about the series. and as you say gatwa is magnetic. will revisit BOOM on your post alone as first time round i didn’t like how it looked and didn’t really enjoy it as much as some others, but yeah yr post has encouraged me to go back.

and DJP otm about An Unearthly Child.

DJP OTM of course. I will say that one of the most memorable of the classic series is "Wargames" which is in TEN parts. I don't think it dragged, but the final episode is just so weird and memorable, even by modern standards.

pgwp, my 9yo has recently been watching the old series (Tom Baker) but his dad found a list of sort of 'must-see' type episodes and is running through those. Kid LOVES them, loves the arch wit and the little clues and baddies and the basic effects. You may well find it dull for a lot of the time. He's also concurrently watched a couple of the recent Tennant/Donna ones from this year and all the Gatwa ones.

When they're good, they're really good but the dumbness pisses me off too much sometimes - like the Toymaker one, had almost psychopathic levels of disregard for any satisfying aspects to the resolution, with BOMBASTIC to compensate for it.

first Doctor is a bit unpleasant as he’s very grumpy - it’s hard to square with any enthusiastic seeming Dr’s you have already encountered

mr veg has never seen old Who. I rewatched Pyramids of Mars the other weekend & he sat through it and I was like “wasn’t it great?” and he was like “the story is good but it’s 2/3 just them running around or hiding”

and i was like how dare

great post pgwp - really captures something good about the series. and as you say gatwa is magnetic. will revisit BOOM on your post alone as first time round i didn’t like how it looked and didn’t really enjoy it as much as some others, but yeah yr post has encouraged me to go back.

― Fizzles, Thursday, June 27, 2024 bookmarkflaglink

Well just to reiterate, you have to go into the episode feeling confident that you are watching a show for children. That's why it riled me so much - the tension caught me off guard big time because I'd never experienced another episode that tried for that tone.

But I do think the thing that will stick with me the most from this season is how mad the Doctor got at people for being religious. I don't think I've ever seen such an unapologetic pro-atheist stance on TV before.

pgwp, my 9yo has recently been watching the old series (Tom Baker) but his dad found a list of sort of 'must-see' type episodes and is running through those. Kid LOVES them, loves the arch wit and the little clues and baddies and the basic effects. You may well find it dull for a lot of the time. He's also concurrently watched a couple of the recent Tennant/Donna ones from this year and all the Gatwa ones.

Perhaps such a list would be helpful, as those early series seem dauntingly long. 40+ episodes in a season. I don't think my kid will have the stamina for something like 700 episodes of Dr. Who.

pgwp be extra-warned that the three-part Tribe Of Gum story that’s bundled with An Unearthly Child is one of the slowest in all of Who history. Plenty of “sampler platter” recommendation lists in other DW threads if your kid is up for jumping around to get a flavour of how the style and Doctors change over the years though!

(Especially as it’s literally impossible to watch all of it — 97 eps from the 60s are missing, and most of the 1963-73 episodes only exist in poor copies)

xp hah

or if you want to jump back to a part of the revival series that feels more "current" than the Eccleston season, Matt Smith's first episode (The Eleventh Hour / Series 5) is a great place for kids + older co-viewers to start...

I feel like I've heard so much about the David Tennant era...

xxp think we started with City of Death but then he decided he wanted to watch all the Tom Baker ones so is doing that. so the list got forgotten!

opinions will vary, but a lot of folks here will agree that nearly every episode in Tennant's first series is kinda bad*, while even the couple of duds in Smith's first are pretty okay.

but for you two specifically, the things you didn't like about the style of Eccleston's first ep are in most of Tennant's, and his run is not written to work as a jumping-on point (that also rewards existing viewers), which Smith's first year is. if you and the son dig that one, I'd suggest a highlights run through Eccleston and Tennant before going on through Smith and Capaldi. (you personally will like Capaldi a lot, I'm guessing.)

*has one GREAT standalone, and one great one that only works if you've seen a bit of older Who before.

watching the very first episode from 1963 next is still a tops idea btw! that one is great, and will feel like time-travel in and of itself to the kid - basically taped as live in one studio, with voice-over scene transitions done by the actors simply standing off-camera... and still works as showing the origin point of where the premise of the modern show came from. but if he doesn't vibe with that one, it's probably a lost cause to try any other six-part B&W stories :)

Thank you for the advice!

Which one is the great standalone from Tennat’s first season? The Girl In The Fireplace?

Yeah, I think so. By a fairly clear margin actually, looking at the others.

(i quite liked the satan pit iirc)

I figured it had to be but even that one has its problems

Your reminder that sic is (correctly) a Love and Monsters fan.

(So am I, but I’d definitely hold back from recommending it to a newer viewer).

I suspect sic was actually referring to School Reunion though.

^ Yep.

“The Eleventh Hour” is great for newcomers, I’ve converted many friends and family members to the show from it. Still the best season opener of nu-Who imo

Ah okay yes, I can get behind School Reunion

(Fireplace as the main great one, Reunion as the one that requires at least an affection for the series in general to hit properly.)

Excited for pgwp+kid to watch every Moffat-written one up to and including The Eleventh Hour frankly

I appreciate everyone’s advice. Apparently my son has been doing his own research and I’m letting him lead the way - so we are back to the Eccleston season as he wants to see it how it transitions into the Tennant era, which his internetting tells him is a great era.

I won’t bog this thread down with our entire watch but we are now three eps into Eccleston. We just watched “The Unquiet Dead.” When we saw a few advance scenes of this ep I said “oh this looks like it will be a creepy one like 73 Yards.” He says, without missing a beat, “yeah but remember this show is really old so it will be creepy like Indiana Jones, so it will probably actually just be funny.”

Anyway, I know my perspective is severely limited but yeesh, Eccleston does not hold a candle to Gatwa (and Rose does not hold a candle to Ruby either). Also I feel like I’m picking up on a subtle romantic tension between them which I am finding very creepy.

Oh PLEASE keep giving your impressions of these stories

concur with Dan: here's a thread for it!

direct link means you don't have to see Dan laughing about infoginas at the top. spoilers!

Ha, thanks. I had started reading that thread and find it hilarious how much folks there flipped for the show when it came out. Clearly there is a well-earned loyalty (with a degree of blindness) that comes with this show.

I’ll keep posting in this thread if folks don’t feel like I’m bombing it. I don’t plan to go on at length about every episode. I am getting more joy out of my son’s reactions than I do from the show itself, so his responses are more what drives me to share.

The latest - we watched two-parter about a group of aliens who faked an alien invasion, and I got to educate him about George Bush and Tony Blair and the completely corrupt invasion of Iraq.

i love yr posts, no complaints here!

Your posts are good, they form part of the weft and weave of ILX - but it makes more sense for them to go on the thread about those seasons, and not this one which is specifically not?

mmm idk i don’t wanna be opening up a lot of threads, man

Haha okay I confess I didn't see that there was an 18-year gap, in my head there was one or two old Doctor Who threads, but that one was the second one (of three) that season! Here is fine.

also interested in whatever updates pgwp deems worthy of offering - so strange to think that "new Who" is nearly 20 years old, if I consider that is the difference between the Five Doctors (when I was 9) and the Harnell era it blows my mind - one of those personal timeline calculations that you need to have a little lie down afterwards - like working out that the gap between now and Nirvana is the same as the distance between the Sex Pistols and Vera Lynn or whatever (possibly inaccurate calculation there)

anyway we will need something to do in this thread while we wait for Christmas or [checks notes] ...a Sea Devils spin-off? WTF?

I’m sorry, a what

there's a five-episode Bad Wolf production with a working title of The War Between The Land And The Sea (phrase used by Gatwa in 73 Yards) that ppl are assuming is a UNIT vs Sea Devils miniseries. finally, Kate can finish the genocide her dad half-arsed in 1970.
.
But it hasn't shot yet, so definitely won't exist before either Christmas or RTD2S2.