Qui prior egressus est, Iacobus Rufus erat: A thread for all things Latin

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Started as a spur line here: Lilacs Out of the Dead Land, What Are You Reading? Spring 2022

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 22:28 (three months ago) link

Think maybe my Latin name should have some macrons, so Iācōbus, but was superstitious about how that might effect Zing etc.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 22:35 (three months ago) link

In later Latin it became Iacōmus, yet another aspect of the Jacob/James split, two names separated by a common etymology.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 22:37 (three months ago) link

Guess this thread should be bring yr own macrons, macrons are optional (not to be confused with the guy on the other threadz)

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 22:39 (three months ago) link

To summarize: the pinefox was reading a book called The Norfolk Mystery, by Ian Sansom, causing him to bemoan the fact that one of the characters would spout endless, often untranslated sentences in Latin. This caused others among us to start wondering which Latin phrases were common enough to be readily understood by English speakers at various points in time and ask the same for speakers of other languages.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 22:44 (three months ago) link

I randomly looked at the first few pages of this book and found this sentence
'I envisage this not merely as my magnum opus, but as a magnum bonum. De omnibus rebus, et quibusdam aliis—'

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 22:50 (three months ago) link

Nolite te bastardes caborundorum.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 28 April 2022 22:51 (three months ago) link

(the vulgate says that esau was HISPIDUS, which means hairy, but a more fun latin word for hairy -- or anyway shaggy -- is HORRIDUS) (which also means what you think it means)

mark s, Thursday, 28 April 2022 22:52 (three months ago) link

Yes, jimbeaux, I left out the lower hanging fruit like that one for other posters such as yourself.

obv I knew the first Latin expression in that sentence I quoted, the second I could guess the meaning, the third I had to look up.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 22:53 (three months ago) link

I enjoy that one because it's probably the best-known "Latin" phrase in current usage. Atwood intended it as kind of an inside joke.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 28 April 2022 22:56 (three months ago) link

caRborundorum: sorta looks like a latin gerundive (but isn't one)

bastardes: not latin at all

mark s, Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:01 (three months ago) link

meanwhile carborundum (which also looks like latin) is a modern portmanteau of carbon and corundum (which ALSO looks like latin, but is actually it turns out tamil)

mark s, Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:03 (three months ago) link

Yeah, that was a typo.

Neither word is actually Latin. Fred actually points that out in the book, but doesn't actually explain anything.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:03 (three months ago) link

The Vulgate is yet another aspect of this, since there were other Latin translations as well: earlier, pre-St. Jerome versions and later Protestant Latin Bibles, although I know nothing at all about this. I do like to use this side-by-side, Vulgate/Douay-Rheims/Knox Bible, the last one being translated into English by Monsignor Ronald Knox, uncle of Penelope Knox Fitzgerald #onethread
http://catholicbible.online/side_by_side?bible_part_no=1&book_no=1&chapter_no=25

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:06 (three months ago) link

Note that Cod Latin, macaronic Latin...Dog Latin...Canis Latinicus! .. is welcome on this thread (as long as it is identified as such at some point, although we don't necessarily need to go all Tuomas dubitātus on this) since it is part of the story.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:12 (three months ago) link

De omnibus rebus, et quibusdam aliis I found mentioned in Italian Wikipedia: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_omnibus_rebus_et_de_quibusdam_aliis

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:15 (three months ago) link

But maybe something was slightly misstyped since I found more hits for a slightly different version, like this one

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:17 (three months ago) link

Oh, the Italian wiki says it a humorous variant, so pretty deep cut.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:19 (three months ago) link

actually horridus or i guess horridi is sorta kinda not *terrible* for the adjective form of blecchs (whatever that is in english lol)

so that the (plural) noun would be (i think) horriditati

so my bullshit propsal is: iacobus rufus illa horriditatique

mark s, Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:22 (three months ago) link

kinda more spiky than lovecraftian in soundform

mark s, Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:23 (three months ago) link

Lol.

Wow, the source of that phrase, The 900 Theses, by Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, was the first printed book banned by the Church, but the author later reconciled with his friend, ex-ILX0R Girolamo Savonarola and was welcomed back into the fold.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:25 (three months ago) link

The pinefox, if you're reading, that phrase can be translated as "about every knowable thing, and even certain other things," a way of mocking a pompous claim to omniscient authority.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:28 (three months ago) link

Sorry, not quite: the original phrase de omni re scibili et quibusdam aliis can be translated that way. The mockery of it in that book is "of all things that exist and many others as well."

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:32 (three months ago) link

quibusdam is latin for what-the-fuck-ever else, you can tell just by looking

mark s, Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:33 (three months ago) link

Stop the presses! The original original sentence was: Per numeros habetur via ad omnis scibilis investigationem et intellectionem, "“It is through numbers that we find the way to the inquiry and understanding of everything knowable."

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:38 (three months ago) link

Ha, exactly. I was familiar with the related, derived French word
"quidam" as a form of "what's his name," but not that it was also an English word. Interestinh how as the word went from Latin to French to English it went from meaning "somebody" to "somebody (whose name I don't know or can't say)" to "somebody (unimportant), nobody."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quidam

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:43 (three months ago) link

Finally onto magnum bonum. As expected, it means "a great good," but it is also the name of a Swedish pop group from the 70s and 80s and a kind of apple grown in the Southern US. I rest my case.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:45 (three months ago) link

unsurprisingly a lot of the surviving phrases in english come from legal usage

plus some fun stuff comes via religious usage, like hocus pocus derisively mangled from hoc est corpus (as in "hoc est enim corpus meum", "this is my body", from the communion service)

mark s, Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:52 (three months ago) link

See also:
https://borgestodoelanio.blogspot.com/2015/03/jorge-luis-borges-los-traductores-de.html

¿Cómo surgió esa noche adicional que ya es imprescindible, esa maquette de la irrisión de Quevedo —y luego de Voltaire— contra Pico de la Mirándola: Libro de todas las cosas y otras muchas más?

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 28 April 2022 23:53 (three months ago) link

DIdn't know that about hocus pocus. Trying to remember the term for "something and something" expressions as featured prominently in legalese. Ah yes, here they are: coordinated pairs, legal doublets, merisms. Many from Anglo-Saxon origins so somewhat of a derail from this thread but I will indulge myself. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_coordinated_pairs

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 April 2022 00:02 (three months ago) link

Oh wait I forgot that some of these are supposed to be a pair featuring one Romance and one Germanic term. Maybe since I couldn't think of an example myself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_doublet

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 April 2022 00:11 (three months ago) link

"Free and clear" is one, I think.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 29 April 2022 00:16 (three months ago) link

the text I most remember from high school is from Catullus, the most famous of his poems, about his conflicted relationship with Lesbia

Ōdī et amō. Quārē id faciam fortasse requīris
Nesciŏ, sed fierī sentiō et excrucior

I hate and I love. Maybe you ask why I do this
I don't know, but I feel it happening and I am tortured

Dan S, Friday, 29 April 2022 00:56 (three months ago) link

There’s also– wait for it!– this recent release:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJdtpDLblLw

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 April 2022 01:07 (three months ago) link

mostly though I think Latin in high school helped me understand word origins and especially the endings of the most common singulars and plurals of the three genders of Latin nouns (us/i-masculine, a/ae-feminine, um/a-neuter) which are used frequently in English (alumnus/alumni, alumna/alumnae, datum/data, focus/foci, alga/algae, larva/larvae, fungus/fungi, forum/fora, persona/personae, etc etc). there are a lot of exceptions to those singulars and plurals, but those occur most frequently

Dan S, Friday, 29 April 2022 02:20 (three months ago) link

medical terminology is replete with Latin words and their plural spellings

Dan S, Friday, 29 April 2022 02:38 (three months ago) link

*Latin nouns

Dan S, Friday, 29 April 2022 02:43 (three months ago) link

I'm just trying to catch up with with this thread now (obviously with limited understanding).

I'm glad to see that poster James Redd looked into the novel I was reading.

>>> I randomly looked at the first few pages of this book and found this sentence
'I envisage this not merely as my magnum opus, but as a magnum bonum. De omnibus rebus, et quibusdam aliis—'

Yes, I didn't understand most of this. I don't think it was translated in the book. Rather problematic for the reader.

the pinefox, Friday, 29 April 2022 08:06 (three months ago) link

Caesar adsum iam forte, Pompeii aderat.
Caesar sic in omnibus, Pompeii sic inat.

fetter, Friday, 29 April 2022 09:21 (three months ago) link

eheu

mark s, Friday, 29 April 2022 09:24 (three months ago) link

from the discussion on ILB:

i'm actually quite interested in which phrases have got bedded into which languages -- which of the following do the french or the dutch or the swedes also say?

I think sussing this out runs into the problem of English influence on other European languages - i.e. a lot of latin phrases that are used in English will start getting used in other languages as well, not because they always were, but because they've been imported back in via English.

On a tangent, I think English speakers in general underestimate the extent to which English has colonized other languages. Portuguese Gen Z basically speak as much English as Portuguese at each other, subbing in words with very simple Portuguese equivalents - nice, sad, song. French linguistic protectionism might end up kinda vindicated.

Daniel_Rf, Friday, 29 April 2022 09:31 (three months ago) link

i'm still interesting in this issue even if all the latin phrases used by the danes and the walloons are borrowed indirectly from english not directly from latin

the incidence of the tridentine or latin is still a live political issue in the catholic church (i believe it's one of the issues over which that pope francis and pope benedict differ)

mark s, Friday, 29 April 2022 09:56 (three months ago) link

well, at a glance I'd say that all the examples you cited - status quo, de facto, persona non grata, bona fide, sui generis, sine qua non, ad infinitum, et cetera - are used in Portuguese, tho being a Latin language "de facto" is just actual current Portuguese and "et cetera" barely registers as Latin. But stuff like bona fide feels English.

Daniel_Rf, Friday, 29 April 2022 10:13 (three months ago) link

yes, like the line for the romance languages is much more blurred than it will be the germanic languages

(apparently -- sez wikipedia -- 40% of bavarian grammar schools still study latin)

english as like a near-militantly mongrel language offers a strong model for mongrelism as it speards into other languages among the cosmpolitan on-line young (this is my fancy way of rewriting what you said above w/o the use of the i-word)

mark s, Friday, 29 April 2022 10:21 (three months ago) link

fancy yet also full of typos

mark s, Friday, 29 April 2022 10:22 (three months ago) link

Exoptatus mundum meum advenisti.

Yes, I didn't understand most of this. I don't think it was translated in the book. Rather problematic for the reader.

Looking it up gave me more detail but I already had the main meaning before that: the guy is embarking on a quite ambitious big project and is kind of long-winded and pretentious.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 April 2022 10:35 (three months ago) link

Convenience link:
https://latinitium.com/latin-dictionaries/

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 April 2022 11:45 (three months ago) link

More about this guy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pico-della-mirandola/

After a short stay in Paris, Pico returned to Florence, and then Arezzo, where he caused a scandal by abducting a young woman named Margherita, already married to Giuliano Mariotto de’ Medici. Despite the support that came from Lorenzo de’ Medici, the commotion that followed and then a plague kept Pico on the move, just at the time he was writing a Commento on a love poem by Girolamo Benivieni and planning his larger scheme of philosophical concord

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 April 2022 15:07 (three months ago) link

Says he was also the first Xtian Kabbalist. No wonder Borges namechecked him.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 April 2022 15:08 (three months ago) link

my larger scheme of philosophical concord does not include abducting anyone, i guess this is my big mistake

mark s, Friday, 29 April 2022 15:19 (three months ago) link

Apparently this was his magnum opus, HI DERE:
https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/mirandola/oratio.shtml

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 April 2022 15:50 (three months ago) link

His story is all over this place, and his wiki page is a little more readable than over there at Plato Stanford.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 April 2022 15:50 (three months ago) link

'Quid pro quo' is useful and commonly understood. As with schadenfreude, there's no native English idiom that conveys the meaning quite so succinctly.

Vast Halo, Friday, 29 April 2022 15:57 (three months ago) link

Speaking of hybridization, I am fascinated by the influence of Arabic on Spanish. The Wikipedia page has a pretty good list of direct word imports. One of the most frequently used in everyday speech is "ojalá," which roughly translates to "hopefully" and comes from "‘law šá lláh," which means "God willing" (I guess it's an earlier form or variant of "inshallah"). Although it's pretty much lost its religious connotations, surely thought patterns persist.

Arabic influence on the Spanish language

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 29 April 2022 16:13 (three months ago) link

More from the pinefox’s book:
dies faustus, which means “lucky day.”

gradus as Parnassum, literally “steps to Parnassus, and usually intended to mean learning something gradually, and therefore often a common title for instruction manuals.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 30 April 2022 00:43 (three months ago) link

Aargh gradus ad Parnassum

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 30 April 2022 00:43 (three months ago) link

tempus anima rei, time is the soul of things, so maybe time is of the essence.

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 30 April 2022 00:53 (three months ago) link

Those are all in the book?

the pinefox, Saturday, 30 April 2022 09:15 (three months ago) link

Yes

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 30 April 2022 10:01 (three months ago) link

the word parnassus needs a bit more opening up maybe: it's the name of the mountain range in central greece where apollo worked with the muses to make divine music

now we would perhaps say "elevator to beyoncé"

mark s, Saturday, 30 April 2022 10:25 (three months ago) link

Unusually, I walked past poster Mark S's home yesterday.

My main thought was: actually, this is a tremendous place to live, isn't it?

(No Latin content in this post I'm afraid)

the pinefox, Saturday, 30 April 2022 11:37 (three months ago) link

ORIGIN: L tremendus to be trembled at

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 30 April 2022 12:22 (three months ago) link

gerundive of tremere, to tremble

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 30 April 2022 12:24 (three months ago) link

the text I most remember from high school is from Catullus, the most famous of his poems, about his conflicted relationship with Lesbia

Ōdī et amō. Quārē id faciam fortasse requīris
Nesciŏ, sed fierī sentiō et excrucior

I hate and I love. Maybe you ask why I do this
I don't know, but I feel it happening and I am tortured

Just came across this. And this as well:

cēnābis bene, mī Fabulle, apud mē
paucīs – sī tibi dī favent – diēbus,
sī tēcum attuleris bonam atque magnam
cēnam, nōn sine candidā puellā
et vīnō et sale et omnibus cachinnīs

Eric B. Mash Up the Resident (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 30 April 2022 18:40 (three months ago) link

Have my eye on the reader Familia Romana but have been holding off for a bit.

Wile E. Is President (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 3 May 2022 13:33 (three months ago) link

three weeks pass...

Noli turbare circulos meos!

Once Were Chemical Brothers (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 30 May 2022 11:37 (two months ago) link

Note that the song is titled “Panis Et Circenses” but otherwise it’s usually “panem et circenses,” with the bread in the accusative.

Once Were Chemical Brothers (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 30 May 2022 11:56 (two months ago) link

Contra malum mortis non est medicamentum in hortis.

Once Were Chemical Brothers (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 30 May 2022 14:17 (two months ago) link

Although I see other alternate wordings of that.

Once Were Chemical Brothers (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 30 May 2022 14:17 (two months ago) link

one month passes...

Just saw on TCM that Walter Matthau used the term sine invidia in a letter to Billy WIlder about The Fortune Cookie script.

Build My Gallows Hi Hi Hi (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 2 July 2022 02:13 (one month ago) link


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