Real love -- I'm, like, searchin' for that Queer Love -- LGBTQIA+ Love // A Thread for the Real Ones

nice to hear everyone's thoughts about this stuff tbh.

a fb friend posted the other day "testosterone is hot but also gross" and as much as it's inaccurate, like a single hormone doesn't add up to gender, it kind of encapsulates my experience in a way.

a macho man who challenged me about domain over the squats rack

i'm having trouble imagining this tbh. i've heard of similar stories, big dudes chasing smaller dudes away, but it's such a ridiculous thing to do i just can't imagine how it goes.

the last time i witnessed awful noxious masc weirdness in the gym was at fuckin 6:30 on a sunday morning. i walk in the gym, it's super quiet, i walk over to what i call the "man cave" where all the dumbbells are and there is a group of 7-8 dudes who are like SCREAMINGLY loud, just hooting and hollering at each other, giving each other bro slaps and all this shit - they were seriously like a pack of baboons. i turned my headphones all the way up and i could still hear them. they were there for an hour and they did not calm down the entire time. it was super weird, annoying and gross.

like, i hadn't witnessed loud attention-seeking group behavior in a pack of males since maybe high school and it was a little unbelievable to be watching late-20s early-30s guys go all out with it.

also i have weird feelings when other gay men tell me "you wouldn't know that you're gay" or "you don't look gay". it's just, idk, it's complicated, you know? i present as masc and my style is generally conservative but that doesn't mean i'm not a burning queer ember from the rainbow sky of feelings. sure i have settled on masc presentation as something that feels authentic to me in some way but it's always just one step away from the male supremacy tradition of making another group or identity seem weaker and i will never, can never take that step, i try really hard to untake it, i know in my heart it's disgusting bullshit, it would not honor me as a whole person, let alone anyone else.

another random thought is that objectification of masc types is real. maybe this sounds like crying from the side of the more powerfully-coded, because a lot of masc types play it up and enjoy the attention, but there's a gross and alienating aspect to it too.

great posts map, they express a lot of what I have felt

not to chain post too much but i have also had the experience of being hit on by attractive women and it is flattering. to what degree that's internalized homophobia idk but i enjoy it when it happens.

xp thanks dan, good posts from you too

Hi guys. I doubt anyone remember me from 10 years ago. Just wanted to pop in. *Goes back to lurking.*

Interesting posts, map and all.

I present as pretty masc but then I begin talking and it seems to quickly take the sails out of any theories that I might be straight. I also keep in shape but am not musclebound— I’m a tiny guy, and find too-large muscles really unattractive on myself and others, sorry to say. I’d say that there are times when I am “skinny jacked,” if that makes sense.

I am mostly interested in dismantling systems of masculine power, so my presentation and way in the world is sometimes at odds with my desires and people are confused by me, but really it just comes down to the fact that I am most comfortable in clothes that are coded as masculine. I’ve never liked dressing up, and while I have a sense of style, it is mostly along the “aging punk guy” lines, with a dash of queer short shorts energy thrown in during the summer.

Although I'm not into muscle queens per se, I can find certain other gay performances of masc sexier than actual hetero masc. With hetero masc, you're sneaking glances while politely concealing your desire, whereas performative gay masc is more "it's alright to look - actually, please look". So slutty looking gays often do it for me; I vibe off the narcissism and appreciate the generosity!

i relate to that - it's nice to hear that thought articulated. hetero masc is so constraining. i also love to see other queers who are embracing it all. sorry to share a facebook meme here but "if gender is a performance, i want to star in a cult classic that bombs at the box office."

I'm in an odd position. I'd say 98% of my interactions, intimate or brief, take place with straight people. My three closest friends are straight dudes, one of whom is happily married with kids (his kid is my godson). In an example of how context matters, I come off and purposely present myself as more femme than usual in their company, whereas with my gay friends (not many in town, alas) I'm butch.

don't mean to derail the thread but I'm wondering if other gay guys here shave their balls

maybe that is too personal

It's not and I do

Honestly it should be on one's state-issued ID

lol

fwiw I think every guy straight or gay should shave their balls and the base of their penis, and trim the surrounding pubes, it is just a requirement if you want good oral sex

nothing makes me sadder than shaved balls. nothing

I know people have different preferences and don't think I will understand why that's sad to you

so i really don't know to what extend it's "me" or some kind of deeply embedded reactive strategy but i've always been drawn to very masc presentations since i first started discovering my own sexuality. it's part of the reason i lift weights and eat a lot of meat. i'm kind of done second guessing it because it brings me pleasure even if it also feels like an "alien" pleasure that is disorienting and alienating and kind of silly sometimes and seems to confuse people who have progressive attitudes or creative dispositions (which i share). and there's the rub, people want to socialize with someone who feels safe to them, and i probably present a certain amount of toxic masc vibes, and i internalize the conflict between my presentation and a part of myself that isn't visible, that i almost wish wasn't a part of me sometimes. on the other hand i can't fully embrace masc presentation as reflective of who i really am.

I have the same experience (well, I don't lift weights or eat meat but y'know) and this is something I've also been wrestling with for years and think about probably every day.

One thought is, as someone who fetishizes buzz cuts and workout shorts and etc, I don't wear these things with the same casual air as a het dude who does not fetishize them, even though there are gonna be days when it's a very subtle or imperceptible difference.

I regard it as an indulgence, ultimately. It brings me a lot of pleasure but I can't help also feeling ashamed and there's a constant dissatisfaction with "presenting" in a way that doesn't reflect my character at all apart from one aspect of my sexuality.

My female persona def plays Disney princess tea party, like the goal for me is to get over the dissatisfaction of it and become one with that duality. I need both things and both are "me".

I enjoy to be femme in the summer with dresses and legs and masc in the winter with a beard and jeans

My preferred hair removal method is (was) Nair, specifically in the crevasses (I prefer a clipped pubis) but yes, I Nair my balls

A couple of summers ago I planned a beachy weekend and prepped for a smooth and delightful sundress situation on a Thursday, applied the poison ointment and set the timer

When it came time for the terrible shower, I stepped in and realized that the water had been shut off for the day

I frantically called my boyfriend while scooping water from the toilet reservoir to rinse my oddities as best as I could with whatever water was available, then put on some loose flannel and sprinted the ten blocks over to his place

By the time I arrived, Nair has been sitting around my butthole for some 45 minutes. I ducked into the shower near tears and turned the water on. I have never felt such pain

feel like i might have said this in a previous gay thread but: i don’t shave or trim anything below my neck, i just like being a furball

I had to shave my pubes when I had radiation, as they needed a clear shot of a tattoo right above my dick to aim the radiation lasers, and now I just do it as a matter of habit, tho I get lazy about it sometimes. I don’t have much preference but do admit that I tend to be more attracted to less hair… which perhaps explains the string of boyfriends prior to my husband, and now my husband, who got the best parts of Chinese and southern Italian ancestry— namely, a virtually hairless body (except pubes and pits) but a not insignificant endowment in other areas.

:-)

By which you mean 'they had full healthy heads of hair' I assume?

Lol, no, I am talking about the salami

I admire this thread's movement from muscles to salami.

most forms of hair removal strike me as an arduous and painful scam. shaving my face is enough for most of the year

that good oral sex requires shaved balls is news to me

Removing the hair makes the balls more sensitive to sexy sensations. It’s just science

This is the most ghoulish conversation!

Ghoulish? Hmm.

I guess I’ve been thinking about this sort of thing for years, seems pretty normal to me…but I mean I also used to work in porn where it was a regular thing to talk about all the time lmfao

I don’t know why I read that as “goulash”

I do love to goulash some balls in my mouth.

shaved balls, hairy balls, trimmed pubes, bushy pubes, honestly it doesn't matter to me. bodies are different and i love that

There’s a gentle Macbethish air in these balls

"A poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more"? Ghoulish indeed.

What kind of gays are you who don't recognize All About Eve?

And you call yourself a playwright!

Aha. Back to the Copacabana.

You sly puss

Campy film references are usually lost on me, just not that kind of gay

… campy?!

shaved balls, hairy balls, trimmed pubes, bushy pubes, honestly it doesn't matter to me. bodies are different and i love that

― marcos, Friday, May 13, 2022 11:49 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This.

all genitals matter

folks are we feeling like summer?

personally i just want a few weeks of jumping in lakes and stuff, i can pretty much leave the rest.

thank you map for your thoughtful posts and to others for sharing their insights. some random thoughts:

I’ve questioned my gender enough over the past five years to feel like i don’t have a firm grounding in “cisness” – words like genderfluid, genderqueer, nonbinary, or even just queer sometimes resonate more – but i think i also feel okay being a man, with being masculine sometimes. other times i do not. It is hard to describe, too, how my experience of gender correlates, or not, with my sexuality. I’m bisexual, but my attraction to men is very different from my attraction to women and so are the ways in which I relate to them sexually. I feel romantic and sexual attraction to both (my partner is a woman), and it’s not as simple as “with men, i bottom and with women, i top” but in terms of sexual styles, acts, roles, etc. i desire very different things with women than i do with men.

not that these correlate with gender in general or even my own internal experience of gender, but generally i’d rather look “cute” or “beautiful” than “tough” or “strong.” it is weird though. i have always been quite slight and thin, was called scrawny by my bulkier peers growing up, but now in my late 30s after a few decades of yoga and cycling i am in the best physical shape i have ever been in, strong even! I am still very small and thin but also wiry and a little muscular now. I love being in good shape, but i feel ambivalent about being more muscular. maybe i want to be more graceful and elegant. my mom commented on my “muscles” recently when looking at my arms and it felt super fucking weird to be perceived that way.

with men, i am much more attracted to “masculine,” “strong,” or “big” men than i am to “cute” or “beautiful” men. i want a daddy, lol. I want to be the pretty one. but gay sex for me is not just about wanting to femme out a little for a strong daddy, the whole idea of gay sex for me also feels super masculine in a sweaty and hot way that is very appealing and sexy to me. when i watch porn, though, i tend not to really watch gay porn. i usually watch bi or hetero porn (though how “hetero” is hetero porn really, what with all these big cocks these days lol) and fantasize about being both the men and the women. i watch the women and want to be desirable in the same feminine way they are. It’s that familiar “am i attracted to this person or do i want to be this person?” question that i actually ask myself seeing attractive people of all genders. sometimes i fantasize about being a woman, but i also love being a gay man. And i love being a gay man but i also really love being bisexual and having sex with women. I want it all, lol, a true greedy bisexual. overall though i feel like my having sex with any gender would still feel “queer” to me because i am queer.

It just hit the 80s here, so I’m already grumpy.

sorry for the long posts! just a lotta thoughts

we’ve all heard the “button question” on gender, which I don’t think is a particularly helpful or revealing thought experiment, but is still one i’ve considered numerous times – if i could push a button and immediately become and be seen as woman without having to take any steps to transition medically, socially, etc. would i? my answer has always been an immediate and resounding “yes, of course!” who wouldn’t? i would love to have that experience – both in relation to my own body/being as well as others.’ A lot of this is also mixed up with my mood disorder. I’m bipiolar ii and i’ve noticed my experience of gender and sexuality fluctuates depending on my mood. I’ve been reflecting over the past few years – how do i feel when i’m hypomanic? when i’m depressed? when i’m stable? When i’m manic i fantasize about getting gangbanged by a room full of ten dudes and i feel super gay. I feel hypersexual and desirable in ways that also feel both masculine and feminine, though. In one manic episode last year, i felt almost conclusive that i should transition. I eventually returned to stability and felt the opposite. when i’m stable i feel solidly comfortable in my body, in my bisexuality and the different ways my gender is manifested in it, and overall probably lean masc. But even if i did transition, ultimately i kinda think i would still hover around in that space where i am now, where masc and femme coexist and fluctuate in different ways internally, sexually, socially, phenomenologically. one might outweigh the other in my presentation or in my mind depending on my mood, company, music, environment. the blurry dyke/fag boundary, sometimes butch sometimes femme.

A lot of this of course is mixed up with my experience of having a particular body. I have olive/brown skin, black hair, a lot of very dark hair on my body – chest hair, leg hair, dark thick stubble covering much of my face, permanent shadow when i shave. I am in a comfortable place now, but over my life I’ve had a difficult relationship with my body hair. During my first gay sexual experience as a teenager – three of us at a sleepover – i was told by one of the guys that i had “too much hair,” and suddenly i felt very self-conscious and withdrew, while the other two white hairless guys proceeded to mess around in front of me. I felt rejected, but it was also hard to reckon that with the eroticism of watching them in front of me, and eventually the guy must have gotten over whatever aversion to body hair he had because we continued to mess around for years throughout high school. I did trim, however, whenever i knew we would be hanging out.

When I was manic and considering transition steps, I researched hair removal. But based on my early experience of rejection, i wrestled with the question – is this gender dysphoria or is this internalized white supremacy / western beauty standards? Do i actually hate my body hair, or was i made to feel as if i wasn’t desirable with it? As I returned to stability, I was able to acknowledge that usually I love my body hair and sometimes I don’t, but ultimately that i would rather keep it than go through any steps to permanently remove it. I keep my body hair now, lightly trimmed, but on my head and face I buzz it all off now. when i look at myself with a shaved head, i feel like i look both masculine and androgynous, which I like.

also like none of this makes any sense to me. gender is really confusing imo

amazing posts marcos, thank you!