Marking Books - is it a sin?

oh bugger, I really messed up the format here

that said, I think I like it better this way. The poll stands as is.

for added context:
"I mark mark the books I get from my university library with pencil while I am studying them. Reason being, I like it when someone has already marked a book I borrow as it speeds up the process of creating a framework of understanding. And if someone really has a problem with it, all it takes is a rubber to wipe away my sins."

so this is strictly not books you own?

I used ink in university library books. Not something I'm proud of doing, but also not that big of a deal in my opinion.

The only thing I've done like this is fold the page of books to mark my place. Only of books I owned, obv, and irrelevant post-Kindle.

Never felt like highlighting or marking would help me maintain information so I'd copy down sentences or information longhand. (not an efficient strategy - in college biology this lead to me hand copying 2/3 of the books we used)

i have children books re-gifted to us with some adult's writing. hard no.

library books no never. my own books yes all the time.

same

20 years ago I would have said it was punishable by death, but these days I feel like it’s all temporary so have at it. Unless the book is rare.
I always hated reading a book someone else had annotated because I assumed they would have got it wrong and it’s hard to see past that to form my own views. I guess that’s pretty arrogant but then everyone has the right to encounter it fresh.

A girl sitting opposite on the bus home on Friday was doing this, with a pen too, I must admit I flinched at every stroke.

I love it when I find annotations in second hand books I've read, fun to know what some rando from the past thought was worthy a "!".

marginalia can be an artform.

But I don'ty tend to pick up books taht have heavy underlinings and notes in them from charity shops. Might have grabbed a copy of Sister carrie that may still be around otherwise.
Need to finish that book in the library version I have out.

library books no

personal books I either use little sticky tabs or pencil asterisks in the margins for interesting passages

(by 'library books no' I mean it isn't nice to mark them imo, not that it isn't a sin to mark them)

The only time I will mark a book is if there's a misprint that isn't obvious to new readers. There's a children's series I like that was recently re-issued, and the reprint "corrected" the original text in a few places, adding grammatical errors where there had been none before and making one or two passages nonsensical. That sort of thing I'll happily mark up, but I never underline or write in the margins. I don't like seeing anyone's commentary while I'm trying to read a book, not even my own.

i love reading books w/other peoples markings & annotations bc its like having a ghost companion reading alongside you, bouncing ideas around with you.

i mark the hell out of my own books. recently when reading something new i came across a bazin quote that struck me and went back to my old copy from college of the original text it was taken from, and found the same quote underlined by 18y/o self, loved having a little encounter with myself across the decades like that. i never kept a journal or diary but going back over a lifetime of marginalia can give similar rewards.

I don't write in novels very often, but I mark up philosophy books to the point of unreadability. I'm rereading a book right now that I went through in three or four different writing instruments ten years ago, and it's interesting to see my own reactions from back then.

I don't like to buy used books with markings, except for gift inscriptions.

Also, it's categorically morally unethical to use ink in library books.

Never to either library or personal books. I don't find it helpful for though organization.

I get everything down in a notebook and for the love of Christ, have you never tried post-it notes or book markers?

Also, to add: you will look hyper-literate if you have shelves of notebooks on display, not to mention you will look and feel like a real author.

In case of untimely death, you should leave something sexy and mysterious behind.

yes, in the form of a lover preferably tho not scribbles

you should absolutely not write in library books, especially not with INK for god's sake. (also can't understand why you'd want to, since presumably you would lose all your notes/annotations when you return the book.)

writing in your own books is fine, though i admit i usually get annoyed when i find someone else's marks in a used book i've bought. i do like finding a good personal inscription from someone. sometimes they're very poignant.

Marking up books that do not belong to you may not meet all the criteria to be "a sin", but it sure af meets all the criteria for "selfish, rude and thoughtless".

I fundamentally disagree that pencil marking a library book is "selfish, rude and thoughtless". To specify, I am thinking of non-fiction/research books. I guess I would agree for novels or the like where markings have no special function except for the person that marks.

Gross to sticky-notes. They get crumpled, lose their stickiness, and are "in you face". Notebook idea is plenty cool though, but nothing beats the efficiency of a clear underline and one word symbolic note in a margin connected to a section.

For context, I study philosophy and theology. I think marking makes the most sense in the humanities and perhaps not as much in STEM/novels? I'm blind on this point though

The 1954 Fall Term had begun. Again the marble neck of a homely Venus in the vestibule of Humanities Hall received the vermilion imprint, in applied lipstick, of a mimicked kiss. Again the Waindell Recorder discussed the Parking Problem. Again in the margins of library books earnest freshmen inscribed such helpful glosses as “Description of nature,” or “Irony”; and in a pretty edition of Mallarmé’s poems an especially able scholiast had already underlined in violet ink the difficult word oiseaux and scrawled above it “birds.”

I enjoy reading other people's marginalia, but would never do it in a book that wasn't mine. Also I won't lend out any books I've written in because I usually find any previous notes I made deeply embarrassing (underlining is fine).

I've studied many non-fiction library books, including philosophy and theology, never marked them up, and I do not find your reasoning persuasive. Each library patron deserves to have a clear field in which to form their own thoughts and conclusions. Your markings in a book I am trying to study would constitute only so much dross and static interfering with my contemplation of the author's ideas.

my favorite thing about ebooks is the ability to make copious notes

I have spilled coffee on library books and returned them without admission of guilt.

The way my memory works is that words and phrases stick in my head very easily, especially if they seem out of place. If I read a book that has underlinings and notations, I'll remember the underlined words, and every time I re-read that passage, even in an unmarked copy, those words will effectively be in italics in my head. Same with the notations - those are part of the text for me now, and I can't forget them.

So I'm generally anti-marginalia, unless it's particularly charming marginalia, like the bit in Kipling's Stalky & Co. where Beetle finds a book with an argument going on in the margins about whether Bacon wrote Shakespeare and uses it to troll his English teacher.

Never, ever in a library book. Ever.

I've got a relatively new -2019 I think -library book out rn and some arsehole has written on it

After geoengineering by Holly Jean Buck, good book

Not ever in a library book. Not even in pencil; erasers can smear or erase the print, or damage the page.

This poll format rocks, btw.

Sorry Aimless but I'm unconvinced of your proposed inalienable right of the library patron. I enjoy the experience of touching the history of a book via markings. It helps me approach a text without a deadly solipsism, forcing me to read with a touch more humility and brings to light thoughts I would not have on my own. Maybe this all comes down to me being a simpleton that appreciates a bit of hand-holding every now and then. But why shouldn't simpletons be catered when they are trying to learn? I understand that not everyone feels the same and that's why I see pencil as a fine compromise.

That said, I wouldn't mark a book in public. So I'm probably just a hypocrite

Rationalization is everyone's favorite advisor.

it's fine that you enjoy reading other ppl's annotations, but library books do not belong to you and it is unconscionable to treat them like your personal property by marking them up!

one thing i do like is finding someone else's book mark in an old book.

all it takes is a rubber to wipe away my sins.

why is this not a poll option on its own???

Not my personal books since childhood, and then school books have loads of notes but I never do this now. If I like something I’m reading on kindle I’ll go and screenshot it. However, I do have a 1930s??? copy of Kim that used to belong to the University of Virginia (???) which had some dated notes in it during ww2 and I think about that person and what they were thinking reading Kim sometimes.

Also, this poll is terribly formatted and won’t capture the correct opinion of me and others in the same boat.

Also I wouldn’t mark a library book myself and agree that people shouldn’t but considering library books are almost certainly read in the jacks/other unsavoury places, it seems the least of your worries?

I only wrote in my own purchased books in college. For example, they made me buy a copy of Wuthering Heights and I marked it up and kept it.

Outside of that, I've never written in my own books. I did minor textbook vandalism in middle and high school. Not anything this clever:

https://external-preview.redd.it/neJVG8U4OFz8hTBvmShPMd52ZGkcXPAaxJlFqjUjeFA.jpg?auto=webp&s=7701d4a19c27da6d9abb175d9e56868dac2032e8

one thing i do like is finding someone else's book mark in an old book.

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, March 7, 2022 11:30 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

My favorite thing is when you find a receipt, but it's not a receipt for the book itself; it's a receipt for a Snickers bar or something that they bought while they were reading the book, back in 1985.

A few times I've found paper currency left as bookmarks in used books, but they are worthless bills from poor nations where the currency is frequently devalued or superseded. One of them was used as scratch paper to write a list of Chinese dynasties and their time periods. I keep them to use for bookmarks, too.

Sorry Aimless but I'm unconvinced of your proposed inalienable right of the library patron. I enjoy the experience of touching the history of a book via markings. It helps me approach a text without a deadly solipsism, forcing me to read with a touch more humility and brings to light thoughts I would not have on my own. Maybe this all comes down to me being a simpleton that appreciates a bit of hand-holding every now and then. But why shouldn't simpletons be catered when they are trying to learn? I understand that not everyone feels the same and that's why I see pencil as a fine compromise.

― hrep (H.P), Monday, March 7, 2022 7:29 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I'm going to put this bluntly to you: you're wrong and your behavior is selfish and unable to be justified. You can rationalize it all you want, but you will still be wrong and selfish.

A few times I've found paper currency left as bookmarks in used books, but they are worthless bills from poor nations

had the opposite experience just this week when i opened up a used book and literally found a blank check left inside as an old bookmark!

Party at the new One Eye Open mansion

The one that often happens to be is ordering used books off ABE or other sites and they arrive, inscribed by the author, sometimes warmly. I've had this happen to me about five times in the past few years— seems wild that some booksellers don't check that, like, William T. Vollman signed this book. (The condensed Rising Up, Rising Down, fwiw)

Turns out outsourcing your moral quandaries to ILE isn't all its cracked up to be

(H.P ambles off down the road towards the sunset, hands in pockets, whistling happily, off to the library to check out some books...)

would it not be morally beneficial for one to write a note questioning the taste of somebody whose understanding of a piece of music means they are cloth eared. Surely for the good of humanity one must help future readers to a better understanding?

The one that often happens to be is ordering used books off ABE or other sites and they arrive, inscribed by the author, sometimes warmly. I've had this happen to me about five times in the past few years— seems wild that some booksellers don't check that, like, William T. Vollman signed this book. (The condensed Rising Up, Rising Down, fwiw)

Yes, this happens to me too on occasion. Aside from the seller not giving a fuck or not recognising the signature, I think that author dedications are sadly mostly worthless, unless you happen to share the same name as the dedicatee, or the inscription is to another famous person. Signed and numbered editions, with no dedication, seem to be where the big bucks lie.

It used to be said ('in the trade') that it was rarer to find an unsigned Terry Pratchett hardcover than a signed one.

I think this depends on genre and type of book, tbh. I paid nearly $100 for a signed association copy of an out of print book by my deceased mentor. That is, rare books (even in marginal genres like poetry) with inscriptions can increase a book's price point, but not usually by too much.

Example, out of print chapbook by Clark Coolidge goes for $85. Signed and warmly inscribed? $120.

I underline in pencil my books and library books. I figure I'm doing someone a public service. Besides, no one else checks out my books.

My favorite thing is when you find a receipt, but it's not a receipt for the book itself; it's a receipt for a Snickers bar or something that they bought while they were reading the book, back in 1985.

― peace, man, Tuesday, March 8, 2022 10:26 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Yes! Last week I found a business card for a professional cleaner from the late '90s before the company thought to include a website.

recently bought a paperback of neuromancer to replace one i gave away and the first chapter of the new one has a paragraph every page or two circled, with marginalia denoting what the paragraph foresaw ("VR!" "tiny houses!" "starbucks!")-- i'd love to enjoy the talmudic polyphony of it all but

lol

Marking my own books, if desired: a sign of my own intellectual prowess, an engagement with the text and general understanding of discourse.

Anyone else marking any books, including their own: crude barbarity to be punished by explusion from the universe.

Apply as needed.

I also love finding receipts or flyers— once found a train ticket from 1976 in a book.

i’ve found pressed flowers, original newspaper reviews, train tickets (love that) and postcards.

and to recant slightly on my earlier *never* statement in library books, as long as some dick hasn’t underlined all of a page, i quite like finding bits of marginalia, sometimes useful sometimes annoying.

it’s just that mine tend to be “the fuck you say!” and “complete crap” in crayon or pen scribble, and only occasionally useful editorial emendations, corrections and glosses, and i think that would be annoying for other readers so i don’t do it in library books. but generally i’m fine with this. they’re only books.

Some people write things in bathroom stalls, too. Mostly not helpful things.

Here I sit, brokenhearted

Come now, you should embrace higher feelings, Neanderthal

It's worth reorganizing a few paragraphs just so I can include this gem from The Art of Courtship, right? pic.twitter.com/vGwP2QmgBn

— Dr. Tara Lyons (@TaraLLyons) March 10, 2022

i picked up a library book yesterday and this morning i flipped through it and saw a green thing that i thought was one of those plastic bookmarks that clip onto a page but it was not. it was one of these dental floss picks. in a book! still probably not worse than marking up a library book but close.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2062/6915/products/71zKSv6CYZL_1800x.jpg?v=1552517935

I could see using a clean one as an improvised bookmark if for some reason I didn't have a bookmark on hand? If you can't really tell whether or not its been used though, I imagine that would be pretty gross.

Not sure why I put a question mark in there.^

i could not tell whether it had been used!

Sorry, yeah, that's what I'm saying. One's own unused dental pick - not a problem. Someone else's dental pick that exists in an undetermined sake - horrifying, depraved.

i find this thread driving more and more to the value and virtue and general humanity of marginalia as a thing. jottings, graffitos, people writing in places where there is space and responding to stuff - human condition. pious gatekeepers be damned.

I don’t know why I assumed ILE would be above pious gatekeeping? What are you gonna do though

I don’t know why I assumed ILE would be above pious gatekeeping? What are you gonna do though

i was stuck in highway traffic yesterday and my only solace of joy was finally being able to notice the jottings on the highway wall. “Hops!”, “Papi”, “Papa”. I have no idea what it’s about but I like it.

it's pious gatekeeping to not like getting a library book with writing all over it?

apparently. no one's said a word against markings or marginalia in books that are not public spaces.

"I just wanted to put some notes in the margins for you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuuNyyQUVn4

It’s not pious gatekeeping to “not like” it, it’s pious gatekeeping to categorically reject it as an evil, or enjoyers as selfish. What is public is public

I can appreciate that some find marginalia obtuse, but in terms of arguing about it, I see it more of a “live and let live” grey area rather than a stark black and white topic.

Sorry for pushing on. Embarrassingly realising in realtime that being called selfish on a message board by strangers actually makes me feel bad, even if only marginally (pun intended).

Turns out outsourcing your moral quandaries to ILE isn't all its cracked up to be

It's getting hard for me to believe you started this thread thinking this was a "moral quandry" you wanted our insight into, as opposed to a firm position for which you wanted to solicit our approval and did not get as much as you hoped for.

I don’t think I started this thread as a moral quandary in the way you mean it. If I at all think its a moral quandary, its only in the very strictest sense of the word. For me its more a question of tradition / personal temperament which I find interesting to talk through.

Also lol at the implications of “seeking approval”. Gatekeeping intensifies.

You don't seem to understand what gatekeeping means.

People don't think that book which are part of a public trust should be scrawled in.

What IS actually elitist is demanding the right to scrawl stuff in books that are part of a public trust.

I’ll just get reductionist for the sake of efficiency:

Elitist? No you!

Smdh you would gatekeep the definition of gatekeeping itself too. Internet debates have gone too far and we are all to blame

You're a clown.

Humour is a virtue

Isn't it more egalitarian to share your humour in every library book you borrow in like thick crayon ?

Crayons are for private property only. I am a man with principles

pious gatekeepers was silly. but marginalia! it’s often fun. it’s part of the history of books. sometimes it’s annoying. i don’t do it myself in library books but don’t worry overmuch when i find it in them.

If I at all think its a moral quandary, its only in the very strictest sense of the word.

very interesting, but I confess I'm puzzled what you think 'quandry' means when narrowed down to its "strictest sense". every source I've looked at tells me a quandry involves a sense of perplexity, indecision or uncertainty concerning what to choose, so that a moral quandry would presumably involve some indecision about the morality of one's respective choices. All I ever see you asserting is that you are not in any doubt about the morality of writing in any or all books, including library books.

So, what is this strict sense that I'm missing?

I'm pro marginalia in all its forms. I love finding stuff in books - from the banal to the extraordinary; I find it totally adds to my experience of a book.

I've never found a truly satisfactory way to mark up my own books. I'm currently using a highlighter but usually grab whatever's to hand. I always have intentions to copy notes to Evernote or whatever but this rarely happens. I guess I'll go back through books at some point but probably not? As others have said, I wouldn't mark up library books but I'm not fussed when I find it in books I've borrowed.

Sorry Aimless, I might have mischaracterised you as "taking this all very seriously and making an argument surprisingly personal rather than abstract" in the mould that Table did. If I did mischaracterise you then that is my bad. But my point in the difference senses of "moral quandary" is how that phrase might be used to discuss whether toilet paper should hang towards or against the wall, as compared to whether you should contact police if you know a family member has committed some petty theft. If someone views the morality of public marginalia as closer the second example than the first then fair enough, though I see it closer to the first. Happy to disagree.

Highlighters are definitely a sin though. Obnoxious colour and the sound/feel of a highlighter is only a degree removed from nails on a chalkboard

Petty theft is not the same thing as essentially marring a public library book with markings. The latter is a public theft, and the former is most often private.

For me personally, I don't care much about petty theft-- most of the time the reasons behind petty thievery are related to intractable problems of capital and deprivation.

Marring a public good because it helps you absorb the material better or whatever? It speaks to a disregard for others who come after and what their needs might be.

Marring is in the eye of the beholder. As in all things, what might be desecration to one is creativity to the other.

But you must recognise that my argument for marginalia is not merely "this helps me absorb material better or whatever", but rather "I am amongst those who enjoy consuming marginalia?". It's not producing marginalia which is the main joy for me, it is finding it.

hmmmm, fair enough that "this helps me absorb material better or whatever" was in the original post. I understand that standing alone is disregard for the other. But my assumption is that not every other sees it as a negative. But there is degrees to marginalia and also degrees to its appropriateness to every reader. Maybe the safe inoffensive option is the best option? But I would miss something in the world if everyone took the safe option?

I have learned absolutely jack shit from marginalia or underlining I've found in library books.

I've seen one lovely flirtation between two lesbian professors at an institution where I taught, written in small little phrases throughout a book.

Otherwise, I've no use for it outside of one's own private library.

Explaining my perspective instead of yelling at you, because I don't want to yell at anyone today, and feel bad for doing so before. Sorry.

Yes there's been a lot of yelling today. No hard feelings! But if I do find out who you are, what library you frequent, and what book you like, I will viciously leave a note "from H.P., with love" to you with smug assurance.

Also if it means anything, when reading a university thread many moons ago in search for comfort in my own exploits, I remembering thinking you seemed like a very nice person and I was very happy to hear about your success. I hope things are still going as well for you as they seemed to be by that thread.

Thanks hp. Today has been a lesson for me to be a bit more kind on here and elsewhere.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.