ideal version of what happens after death

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this is not voting for what you think happens after you die
this is voting for what you WISH happens after you die

Poll Results

OptionVotes
nothing/you're just gone 35
ghost 16
other 13
reincarnation 9
heaven/hell 3


na (NA), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:26 (three weeks ago) link

i've been thinking about this because, while i'm unable to actually believe in any kind of afterlife, if i could believe in an afterlife it seems so much more exciting and rewarding to believe in ghosts than to believe in heaven and hell. even if you couldn't impact the world of the living as a ghost, i'd be cool just existing for eternity and watching what happens with no stake in the game

we can all agree that heaven/hell is the worst choice, right? so many loopholes and no potential to redeem yourself, if you jaywalked once spiritually you're fucked unless you remember to ask for forgiveness the second before you die. no thanks

na (NA), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:29 (three weeks ago) link

nothing/you're just gone. I want to lose consciousness never to exist again or remember I was Neanderthal. being a ghost would be torture, Heaven/Hell is LOL, and reincarnation, fuck that cos I"ll probably come back as a rabbit with a limp or something.

not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:30 (three weeks ago) link

what I'm AFRAID will happen is you will be taken to a DVD menu and you will be required to either choose to restart your life DVD or pick specific 'scenes' to revisit and that it will get tedious after a year or two of reliving the same memories.

not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:31 (three weeks ago) link

Think the rules regarding heaven and hell vary wildly enough within different denominations and etc that it's hard to pin down. Main objection to heaven always like "I'd get bored" but if you did it wouldn't really be heaven right.

Reincarnation kinda feels like nothing to me, the new me I'm reincarnated as will not have my memories and as such isn't really me?

Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:34 (three weeks ago) link

What about singularity reincarnation where you come back as your best self in a computational utopia.

In the wastelands of Birmingham and Manchester, massages are back (ledge), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:37 (three weeks ago) link

I'm convinced that sports athletes go through 'slumps' when a reincarnated soul temporarily invades their body and this prevents them from playing to their full potential until the soul departs

not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:44 (three weeks ago) link

Nothing but endless, infinite polls for all your favourite topics

Master of Treacle, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:46 (three weeks ago) link

Reincarnation kinda feels like nothing to me, the new me I'm reincarnated as will not have my memories and as such isn't really me?

In a sense this is what happens to people as they get older too, when I read something I wrote online 10-15 years ago I barely recognize the person who wrote it. And you know memories can be fickle and unreliable. My mom and grandma still argue about random shit like "what happened in Arizona 20 years ago". They both remember things completely differently. I downloaded all my FB data once and saw several old conversations I had with various people and just couldn't believe some of it. And so I've come to understand how consciousness perhaps does go on, but ~who/what you are~ comes from the ol' noggin. After all you are "conscious" in your dreams right? Although you're clearly not the person you are when you're awake?

frogbs, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:46 (three weeks ago) link

this is that push button to disappear thread all over again

imago, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:47 (three weeks ago) link

You have wakened not out of sleep, but into a prior dream, and that dream lies within another, and so on, to infinity, which is the number of grains of sand. The path that you are to take is endless, and you will die before you have truly awakened.

-Jorge Luis Borges

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:47 (three weeks ago) link

You should get a certain period of time to study up on every human religion, past or present, going all the way back to Neanderthal animist beliefs, and pick the heaven or hell that sounds most interesting.

Voting for nothing/you're just gone, of course.

but also fuck you (unperson), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:47 (three weeks ago) link

torn between ghost and reincarnation

imago, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:48 (three weeks ago) link

The idea that you'd be granted some sort of magical continued existence with an ideal brain-dependent awareness is imo such a blatant sanity-preservation wishful thinking technique that this thought exercise feels identical to those reddit posts you might see like "what would you do if you woke up as yourself at 14 years old but with everything you know now?" And the answers are just like "I'd invest in Apple LOL" or "I'd have the confidence to kiss Cheryl at the big dance!!" Fortunately no longer existing is so absolute that I won't be able to have any opinions/regrets about it. You could consider that a perk in a way.

Evan, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:49 (three weeks ago) link

going all the way back to Neanderthal animist beliefs,

he does know a lot about stats and epidemiology, so I trust him.

So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:52 (three weeks ago) link

lol

not up to Aerosmith standards (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 15:56 (three weeks ago) link

idk I would definitely want the 'nothing/you're just gone' option for to be what happens after I die myself, but I think I would prefer one of the other options to be true for other people because I can't bear the thought of people I loved just not existing anymore - but maybe it's unfair to impose eternal life on them if I couldn't take it myself

soref, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:06 (three weeks ago) link

idk I would definitely want the 'nothing/you're just gone' option for to be what happens after I die myself, but I think I would prefer one of the other options to be true for other people because I can't bear the thought of people I loved just not existing anymore - but maybe it's unfair to impose eternal life on them if I couldn't take it myself

I want the mercy of nonexistence for everyone I love, but I want all those other people to wind up in some Beckettian hell where they're just a head in a bucket, forced to talk to the head in the next bucket over about nothing for eternity.

but also fuck you (unperson), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:09 (three weeks ago) link

buckettian hell

Evan, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:12 (three weeks ago) link

reincarnation but you just get to skip back to the age of 10 and retain everything you've learned in your life, as many times as you want

A viking of frowns, (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:13 (three weeks ago) link

ghost would be pretty sweet though

A viking of frowns, (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:16 (three weeks ago) link

The idea of experiencing eternity frightens me so much (and I'm amazed that other people can countenance it without feeling the abject terror that I feel) that if forced I'd have to go for non-existence after death but the possibility that some nirvana like oneness of consciousness where time is revealed to be a meaningless human construct could be achieved is maybe a bit easier to deal with

ignore the blue line (or something), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:17 (three weeks ago) link

And at the front gate, what a reward awaits
One bite of loaf from a holy ghost
An eternity of suffering
In the company of all those Christian men

As long as the void is comfy, I'll go with the nothing/you're just gone option.

Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:21 (three weeks ago) link

Also voting for “just gone” as the ideal, though contemplation of it gives a strange simultaneous pleasure/pain sensation.

Luna Schlosser, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:28 (three weeks ago) link

if I had to gamble my astral life savings I'd say the universe collapses and re-expands and at some point whatever molecules made up your brain reform and you become yourself again perhaps in slightly different form and maybe just maybe this is a process that's occurred thousands of times already

frogbs, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:30 (three weeks ago) link

The void, please.

emil.y, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:43 (three weeks ago) link

i turn into a skeleton

STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:46 (three weeks ago) link

GTA-style exhaustive stats screen followed by mission select menu allowing you to replay any bits you want with optional cheat codes

hiroyoshi tins in (Sgt. Biscuits), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:52 (three weeks ago) link

^^^^^now we are fuckin talking

imago, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:53 (three weeks ago) link

All faced with a limitless world of possibilities and second chances, finally banishing lifelong regrets forever, only you just end up spending the whole time suplexing people in year 8

hiroyoshi tins in (Sgt. Biscuits), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:54 (three weeks ago) link

as it's deems' birthday, multi-angle My Greatest Goals comp

imago, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 16:56 (three weeks ago) link

was always amused by nietzsche's eternal return of the same (my understanding could be flawed, it's been a long time) that essentially we just live the same life over and over again in exactly the same way without knowing it

《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 17:03 (three weeks ago) link

Enslaved by ant creatures in a Lovecraftian hellscape (thank you Mr King)

But seriously, GHOST would be an obvious choice for me (which I’d regret after about 10 minutes)

Duane Barry, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 17:05 (three weeks ago) link

Ideal for me? A non-eternal heaven which serves as a vestibule to nothingness, where you have an interval during which you do not need to serve your physical needs, so as to eliminate pain and worries, and you can you learn how you, as an individual being, fit into the universe, before losing all sense of self and merging back into the whole.

it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 17:28 (three weeks ago) link

I would like to be gone except for a tiny grain of consciousness that carries the knowledge of the existence of the world/the universe/existence itself, because what freaks me out the most about death is the idea that my POV is the only one I have access to and thus when it is gone it will be as if nothing exists or has ever existed, and I can't wrap my head around that much nothing.

Lily Dale, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 17:39 (three weeks ago) link

Other, gone but you take fifteen hundred carbon credits with you to offset

fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 17:42 (three weeks ago) link

any afterlife that involves me maintaining consciousness via my terrible malfunctioning mind is a big thanks but no thanks. would ideally prefer the opposite, reincarnation as some low-level lifeform with negligible consciousness like a tube worm or slime mold or something

nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 18:09 (three weeks ago) link

Ideal for me? A non-eternal heaven which serves as a vestibule to nothingness, where you have an interval during which you do not need to serve your physical needs, so as to eliminate pain and worries, and you can you learn how you, as an individual being, fit into the universe, before losing all sense of self and merging back into the whole.

Having trouble parsing this… Do you merge back into the universe or into nothingness? You learn where you “fit into the universe” after you’ve lived your life (when it’s too late to change your life)?

Luna Schlosser, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 18:14 (three weeks ago) link

I voted "other" just because it suggests something interesting. What I expect is a rapid disintegration of consciousness and that's it. But I'm open to 2001-style cosmic awareness, that would be cool.

i can’t decide between these options without more detail. what kind of reincarnation, random or based on my karma or do i get to pick? if ghost, am i a self-aware ghost who can just float around doing whatever or am i bound to reenact my earthly traumas? which heaven, which hell, which moral system determines where i go? if i can just pick heaven that would be nice. i would like 1 ultra-hedonistic heaven, please, with music and flying and people i love and exquisite beauty all around me forever, etc.

cat, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 18:42 (three weeks ago) link

the "what dreams may come" heaven is pretty neat, but the fact that people who commit suicide go to hell in that cosmology (because they don't realize they're dead, which makes no sense) is a bit fucked, to put it lightly

《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 18:47 (three weeks ago) link

I see a lot of people watched the finale of The Good Place.

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 18:49 (three weeks ago) link

my thought as well

Lily Dale, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 19:38 (three weeks ago) link

Do you merge back into the universe or into nothingness?

Since energy and matter are conserved, I project that whatever it is that my heavenly existence was grounded in would be conserved, too, just on the basis of analogical thinking, but if I no longer have have any consciousness of an individuality that seems like a kind of nothingness on a personal level. Since nothing of this sort is observable, it makes sense that one's language about it is imprecise.

You learn where you “fit into the universe” after you’ve lived your life (when it’s too late to change your life)?

I don't envision this as a report card or a chance for a do-over, more like a culmination. As a species we seem to have a strong desire to answer these questions about our place and purpose. We have imagined a large set of possible answers, but certainty escapes us. It would be nice to be able to ask questions of this sort in an afterlife and be provided with definitive answers.

Hope this helps you in your struggle to parse.

it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 19:56 (three weeks ago) link

“nothing/you’re just gone” is the logical choice but it is also the root of my lifelong fear of dying

i’ve got it managed to the point where i dont have anxiety attacks that wake me up from my sleep anymore but there’s still a part of me that cant deal with the heaviness of non-existence

so i might have to be a cornball & vote heaven/hell purely for comfort reasons rather than practicality

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 7 July 2021 20:02 (three weeks ago) link

Me too Veg. I can't face 'nothing, you're gone' but everything else is awful too I guess except an actual heaven that's actually awesome and then you can choose to switch off when you want.

kinder, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 20:25 (three weeks ago) link

heaven obviously, wtf at having to choose hell as well

brimstead, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 20:26 (three weeks ago) link

The only reason I don't want to die is because I don't want to miss what happens next. So, I picked ghost.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 7 July 2021 23:27 (three weeks ago) link

I think reincarnation might be the best pick, actually. In some versions of Buddhism, you can be "re-born" as a ghost, or a god or demon in various heavens and hells. It covers most of the bases.

Duane Barry, Thursday, 8 July 2021 00:36 (three weeks ago) link

I want the ability to go anywhere at any time period and just follow anything that interests me. Go forward and see what happens to the people I leave behind. Bounce around the next American century and see if we fuck it up or not. Rubberneck on the outskirts of some major catastrophes. Go forward a million years and see if we evolve into giant pulsing brain creatures. Dive through Jupiter's atmosphere. Find out if Milton Berle's dick is as big as they say it was.

Then, when I run out of ideas, off to the eternal nothing.

Also, it might be nice to find out if I mattered at all.

Hideous Lump, Thursday, 8 July 2021 05:39 (three weeks ago) link

*two big parts of resurrection

hrep (H.P), Tuesday, 20 July 2021 23:19 (one week ago) link

The quicktalking bit upthread that said endless reincarnation is the same as oblivion, i think we should all maybe just take a turn each out of our busy lives to disagree with that

fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Tuesday, 20 July 2021 23:20 (one week ago) link

Anyways the actual is still the ideal, the signal to the tv blinks out

fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Tuesday, 20 July 2021 23:21 (one week ago) link

The quicktalking bit upthread that said endless reincarnation is the same as oblivion, i think we should all maybe just take a turn each out of our busy lives to disagree with that

i have to admit, i did read that and put my hand on my chin

"Hmm!" i thought

Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 20 July 2021 23:23 (one week ago) link

TY km, on point as usual

Who's next

fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Tuesday, 20 July 2021 23:26 (one week ago) link

If you have high cholesterol and go to heaven do u still gotta take statins

making splashes at Dan Flashes (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 20 July 2021 23:29 (one week ago) link

Hail statin

fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Tuesday, 20 July 2021 23:30 (one week ago) link

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Wednesday, 21 July 2021 00:01 (one week ago) link

If you have high blood pressure when you arrive you book an appointment with Jesus-as-divine-healer. You only have to take statins until your appointment time arrives, several millennia hence. Try to arrive about 30 minutes early because there's paperwork to fill out and rescheduling for later is a bear.

it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 00:01 (one week ago) link

So is the big twist here that, whatever you voted for, that's actually what happens to you?

Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 21 July 2021 01:33 (one week ago) link

I like to imagine that after I die I will stop getting 15 spam calls a day

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 01:56 (one week ago) link

You will start making 15 spam calls a day. Heaven is just a marketing scheme.

Hideous Lump, Wednesday, 21 July 2021 02:01 (one week ago) link

whatever you voted for, that's actually what happens to you?

and if you voted "other" whatever happens to you is decided by a very verbal four year old on a sugar rush, just for the lols

it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 04:06 (one week ago) link

great, we're all destined for the Great Booger in the Nose Beyond

making splashes at Dan Flashes (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 04:08 (one week ago) link

nuh uh, you're bart sikmpson

Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 04:30 (one week ago) link

if you ask a 4 year old in 1991, i mean

Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 04:30 (one week ago) link

i was 8 then. i knew 4-year-olds. i hadn't seen the simpsons, but i knew that if you were playing rock paper scissors, rock beats paper, paper beats scissors, scissors, beats paper, and bart simpson wins everything. also the bulldozer.

Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 04:31 (one week ago) link

can't tell if this thread is about not reading the instructions or enormous levels of depression

Southgate Serves Imperialism (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 08:30 (one week ago) link

Hail statin

vg

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 July 2021 08:40 (one week ago) link

I've come to see reincarnation as a metaphor. As much as I dig the poetic idea of 'coming back as an ant', this is closer to something like the existentialist idea that you are essentially reborn with each second, giving us an astonishing amount of agency and power to put things right, minimise the amount of harm you do and to make (attempt to make) the correct decisions - in actions and morality.

Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 15:09 (one week ago) link

In lieu of reincarnation I dig the notion of whatever life experience and knowledge and abilities I've accrued being divvied up and disseminated among those who can best make use of it. Kind of like willing all my books to a local library except granting my sikk whistling skillz to the whistle-deficient. Just like upload that shit to the cloud or whatever. You know, technology.

Marty J. Bilge (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 15:37 (one week ago) link

i know we should ask about what happens after death. hey squashed fly!

https://i.imgur.com/6T3SiSM.png

what's your ideal version of what happens after death?!

Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 15:41 (one week ago) link

just place your hands to heaven and pray
that we'll be back together some day heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

making splashes at Dan Flashes (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 15:46 (one week ago) link

*raise

making splashes at Dan Flashes (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 15:47 (one week ago) link

Tonight I need your sweet caress
Hold me in the darkness
Tonight you cause my breastlessness
Do you believe my sandwich?

Marty J. Bilge (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 15:54 (one week ago) link

perhaps that fly is in insect heaven, drinking kool-aid all day long

Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 21 July 2021 15:56 (one week ago) link

If we dont remember past lives if we do reincarnate, then how is that practically any different to ceasing to exist?

I want to go on as a bodiless ball of energy/thoughts, interacting with all the other minds. Like the internt but without the pesky shit body cage weighing me down. I dont want to stop existing.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 23 July 2021 05:43 (one week ago) link

https://i.imgflip.com/2z9jkz.jpg

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 23 July 2021 05:46 (one week ago) link

If we dont remember past lives if we do reincarnate, then how is that practically any different to ceasing to exist?

If you - Trayce - are at this moment a reincarnation of a previous life, are 'you' practically 'ceasing to exist'? This Trayce incarnation, with all its problems, crises, hopes and joys etc, feels different from just 'checking out'.

Luna Schlosser, Friday, 23 July 2021 10:42 (one week ago) link

If this amorphous essence carries no recollection of the current me then i cant fathom the way in which it can be said to be me

The christian notion of a soul but divorced from my consciousness feels far less me than the actual me sitting here tbh

fix up luke shawp (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2021 10:56 (one week ago) link

I guess it depends on the design of the 'ideal version' of what you wish happens after death. Do you want to build in some 'recollection' aspect of continuing consciousness etc.

Luna Schlosser, Friday, 23 July 2021 11:02 (one week ago) link

what freaks my nut out is the thought that death can be thought of as like a giant comedy hammer smashing your brain to pieces - in the final microseconds, your cranial neurons are still firing, but they have been rent asunder, separated - what then is the moment of death, what is the consciousness, what state is it in, how can it be preserved intact, what is the point of system restore, etc

which makes me think 'ghost' is still the best answer, because a ghost is an echo of a self at a certain stage of life before death, an echo of the living consciousness and not the one whose neurons are being smashed apart by a hammer

imago, Friday, 23 July 2021 11:15 (one week ago) link

quite fancy lunch now

imago, Friday, 23 July 2021 11:15 (one week ago) link

Reincarnation - ideal version design options

(i) no continuing essence or 'soul' during incarnations

(ii) continuing essence or soul
Option A: constant awareness of continuing essence or soul
Option B: intermittent awareness of continuing essence e.g. at death/between incarnations

Design question: Is the continuing essence on some kind of journey with an aim in mind (e.g. undertaking incarnations with the aim of learning something,?) or are incarnations random or selected with any purposes.

It gets complicated very quickly.

Luna Schlosser, Friday, 23 July 2021 11:16 (one week ago) link

(x post)

Who is it that quite fancies lunch: is it your soul, your present incarnation, or an karmic development resulting from decisions and actions made in your previous incarnation?

Luna Schlosser, Friday, 23 July 2021 11:24 (one week ago) link

The divine fancies lunch, with me as vessel, obvs

imago, Friday, 23 July 2021 11:32 (one week ago) link

The thought of final micro-seconds of death also freaks my nut, in that I irrationally and phobicly can't help envisaging it as feeling subjectively like an eternity of time (similar to the experience of time slowing down in a severe accident).

Luna Schlosser, Friday, 23 July 2021 11:40 (one week ago) link

The afterlife as an eternal perception of one's dying moment eh

imago, Friday, 23 July 2021 11:55 (one week ago) link

Zeno's paradox as applied to consciousness, your final second slowed down and stretching into infinity

Marty J. Bilge (Old Lunch), Friday, 23 July 2021 12:11 (one week ago) link

More an adaptation of the black hole approach

imago, Friday, 23 July 2021 13:05 (one week ago) link

Before you fuse with the singularity, an endless instant of pure agony

imago, Friday, 23 July 2021 13:06 (one week ago) link

Or pure bliss!

imago, Friday, 23 July 2021 13:06 (one week ago) link

was listening to an expert speak on the topic (on radio 4) the other week and it turns out the time-slowing-down thing is a trick of the memory rather than something experienced in the moment, they had an experiment with having people watch rapidly flickering displays and suddenly starting a bungee jump.

A viking of frowns, (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 23 July 2021 13:11 (one week ago) link

when I was a child, I imagined that when you die you get handed a set of trading cards that collect all the key moments of your life

Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Friday, 23 July 2021 13:16 (one week ago) link

and then you try to collect other people's better key moments

imago, Friday, 23 July 2021 13:23 (one week ago) link

trade you one 'having a child' for that 'built a pagoda'

imago, Friday, 23 July 2021 13:23 (one week ago) link

Hanging around the pearly gates waiting to scam new arrivals out of their rares.

jmm, Friday, 23 July 2021 13:26 (one week ago) link

HOT STAMPERS

making splashes at Dan Flashes (Neanderthal), Friday, 23 July 2021 14:15 (one week ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd4rgyZzseY

04.45 minutes onwards

Luna Schlosser, Friday, 23 July 2021 14:28 (one week ago) link

...I remember that afternoon, not as so many minutes spent in my drawing room interrupted by these strange excursions in time, but as years and years of heavenly bliss interrupted by short periods in my drawing room

Luna Schlosser, Friday, 23 July 2021 14:43 (one week ago) link


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