Are people, generally speaking, smart or stupid?

So, I guess to OEO's point, on some level that's true -- I am doing something because of how it feels and then backfilling the explanation. But I don't think that's because of a "failure of critical thinking" so much as a choice not to try to overpower a certain feeling with critical thinking.

Ppl are losing faith in "institutions" because they're sometimes wrong. Very wrong! "Experts" aren't infallible. There's corruption. There's lying because "people can't handle the truth" or to save one's ass.
Smart people observe that and conclude they should be skeptical of "institutions" and make extra efforts to suss out the truth and facts. Dumb people just go "welp you can't trust ANYTHING anyone says ever". Aka throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Thus govt ALWAYS lies. EVERYTHING is a scam or a conspiracy or a scamspiracy. I don't vote cause they're all crooks and it's all rigged etc etc

right now, the line to get into the new White Castle that just opened here is about 6 times as long as any line to get a vaccine

There's lying because "people can't handle the truth" or to save one's ass.

this part really irritates me about dr. fauci, the "noble lies" thing.

i get why he does it but i think it's infuriating. and over the long haul, it erodes his authority.

Agreed. It hasn't only been him.

They fucked up right out the gate by flip flopping on whether ppl should wear masks or not. Because they were concerned ppl would buy up all the PPE leaving health-care workers without. But again, a smart person can see why they weren't telling the straight truth in that instance and not take it to mean they don't EVER tell the truth.

xp to man alive, yeah i am basically in the same place w/r/t religious ritual or whatever you want to call it.

yeah i guess i meant my thought re:witchy ppl in my life is not so much that they are consciously engaging in a false smokescreen of rationality but more that they are doing something like fundamentally operating on your #4 while also believing in & acknowledging the truth & efficacy of #s 1-3, which are also useful socially acceptable discussion points to use when the topic comes up in mixed company. "i kind of secretly hope this is literally true, but if its not literally true that still fits into my values and worldview without contradiction." tbh ime this seems like the approach of most religious people i have ever met in my life.

interesting/telling that IQ believers seemingly never have to explain themselves in this way

I'm sure a lot of QAnon people believe it for some combination of the reasons that it's rewarding to believe, it connects them to other people, it gives them a reason to hate people they already hate, they're just bored and it's fun and engrossing, etc. I don't think you need particularly high intelligence to think it doesn't make sense that Donald Trump is secretly the leader of the resistance against a celebrity child porn ring or whatever. I'm sure a plenty of not remarkably intelligent people would instantly pick that out as nonsense.

So it's another thread about the US. Great.

you used the words "erosion" and "now"

what many people fail to understand is that when critical thinking skills erode, they do not disappear. rather, the eroded particles of critical thinking are blown or washed away to other locations, where they collect in loose agglomerations, such as critical thinking skill dunes or the deltas of critical thinking skills deposited at the effluence of rivers.

interesting/telling that IQ believers seemingly never have to explain themselves in this way

― Left, Monday, May 3, 2021 12:14 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

OTM, and there are absolutely some very strong emotional/non-rational reasons for a person to cling to IQ tests (typically their own) as a measure of worthiness if not superiority.

So it's another thread about the US. Great.

― Authoritarian Steaks (Tom D.), Monday, May 3, 2021 12:18 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well, it is a thread about stupidity tbf.

when i was in 8th grade my friends and i found an IQ test program on an old classroom computer, and we all took it and were elated to discover that we rated off-the-charts supergenius scores, then one of us realized that it had been calibrated for 2nd graders, and then none of us had the guts to take it with the correct settings.

Ledges post about values is interesting.

The quote (apologies for missing spaces) is hume's so it's hardly a new idea, though I almost never see it discussed and I don't know if that's because it obscure, it goes without saying, or it's generally dismissed.

Are liberals dumb for supporting welfare policies? No. Are conservatives dumb for not? No. Any evidence that they work is largely beside the point and wouldn't sway the most rational conservative. Ok that's a simplification but you get the point.

ILX has had many discussions of IQ tests in the past. The general attitude expressed toward them has ranged from skeptical to dismissive. There's evidence they do measure something, but identifying that something as "intelligence" draws a lot of scorn.

We will never credit hume in this house

IQ is a strawman itt

IQ is extremely relevant & the fact that ppl clearly take it more seriously than star charts even here says a lot about how ppl conceive of intelligence, (ir)rationality, etc

IQ is a strawman itt

Agreed. Smart and stupid are the announced standards we're supposed to be applying, but no one knows what the criteria for these are. As we fumble around in the dark, it is easy to lay our hands on IQ as a proxy, but it's a useless proxy, so there we are.

xpost But they don't as has been illustrated, but don't let that stop you from dancing with the strawman.

the fact that ppl clearly take it more seriously than star charts even here says a lot about how ppl conceive of intelligence

Sorry, Left, but you're trying to pin the tail on the donkey while blindfolded.

Waiting for Left to object to either the activity of pinning the tail on the donkey or the phrase 'blindfolded'.

Don't know how so many people itt can argue against tarot cards while explicitly promoting phrenology, makes u thing

IQ is extremely relevant & the fact that ppl clearly take it more seriously than star charts even here says a lot about how ppl conceive of intelligence, (ir)rationality, etc

― Left, Monday, 3 May 2021 18:04 (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

a good demonstration of intelligence would be to not the 'itt' u tiresome ass also astrology is fuckin nonsense regardless of whether iq is a measure of anything its not involved at all

anyway its noted we cant talk about anyone being intelligent, is anyone keeping tabs at all these days

I notice you didn't call IQ fuckin nonsense which is exactly the fucking oh never mind

if I really wanted to be PC I would object to the rampant use of ableist language like dumb, stupid etc. which I genuinely have problems with but even I know that's a lost cause rn

Ive addressed IQ as a strawman ive addressed astrology as utterly irrelevant ive amended the rest of this post to be nice tbh

I notice you didn't call IQ fuckin nonsense

I notice you didn't call IQ "fuckin nonsense" either.

(licks pencil, scores one point for himself, according to Left's Rules of Debate)

Anyway i think people dont want to be bothered if they can help it and modern life is set up to supply a surfeit of bother and somewhere between something aligned with ledge's start of a discussion about values and keeping the head down and earning a crust without being told you are guilty of something or on the hook for the price of something else people are happy to feign whatever passes for average or below average intelligence unless they have been rewarded for it or anticipate likely reward for it

That latter point is where rearing, class, education all absolutely feed in- the kindling of interest and the interest shown in return imo

(Not on topic, but a gentle aside to Left: Try for once posting like a human addressing fellow humans instead of a lecturer addressing the benighted. You could even try venturing onto ground where you don't feel yourself to be 100% righteous from time to time. It would be refreshing to hear your voice in some other register.)

if I really wanted to be PC I would object to the rampant use of ableist language like dumb, stupid etc. which I genuinely have problems with but even I know that's a lost cause rn

You're a lost cause.

Try for once posting like a human addressing fellow humans

Thank you, Aimless, you've echoed my thoughts precisely.

I don't seem to be able to do that. everything is just read as trolling at this point

Yeah you dont get to start from scratch as if you havent been sermoning from the mount the past several months but its doable

Hi left, lets start over

it's a paradox, the more sincere and honest and open and earnest I try to be the more I piss people off. clearly I am a lost cause as an ilxor

that's how this website works believe me

but still, you keep coming back -- as do i, as does LJ -- and so that tells you something about yourself and what motivates you. something complicated, probably, requiring some tarot cards.

Sincere open honest and earnest isnt generous, humorous, engaged or interested which all tend to be decent starting points to discuss things with people ime

Now im not everybodys cup of tea neither granted

if the ilxor covertly known as LJ and currently using the dn 'imago', could rehabilitate himself as an ilxor, no one's case is hopeless.

Lots of smart people are pretty dumb. Each finds a different way to be dumb. It's a vast tapestry.

Loads of people (myself included!) got called "gifted and talented" in childhood. But it almost never manifested in a way that made us happier, better-functioning, or less inclined to make terrible life decisions. I would gladly trade 90% of that attention for marginally better life skills.

I don't love the framing of "emotional intelligence" or "multiple intelligences" - much of which is clearly designed to flatter more than to describe. But it does seem like it's not a single sliding scale of smart > stupid. I'm good at some stuff. I suck at some stuff. Same is true of everybody.

Finally, to the ableism point: I have some Feelz(TM) here. My 10-year-old son is pretty seriously intellectually disabled. He's mostly nonverbal and is unlikely to ever talk, write, do math, or read at grade level. At some point he might be able to bag groceries. And I love him utterly because he is my son. He's affectionate, funny, and pleasant to be around. Smart/stupid just doesn't really apply, he's himself and when I'm with him, that's what matters.

My dad used to call me "severely gifted".

Conflating intelligence with worth is why this is a radioactive topic. These things need to be disentangled, utterly so.

xp ye mad puffin

I think in pretty much every context where I employ 'stupid' as a pejorative I almost always actually mean 'lazy'. So something more akin to 'Clearly you have an intellectual capacity roughly commensurate with the task you're undertaking so the fact that it's become a deeply flawed (if not failed) undertaking seems to be more about your unwillingness to expend effort than your ability, idiot.'

OL brings the truth bomb

xpost (Like, generally as applied to work-related concerns, if that wasn't obvious.)

I don't seem to be able to do that. everything is just read as trolling at this point