What is your take on continuity of self?

me and that person aren't really that closely related and currently me would beat up old me circa 2003

i do think about this a lot though, how much of me currently is a persevering holdover from my past self versus how much of me is a new construction that I came up with organically, divorced from who i was in the past.

All things must pass, but they will pass more easily if you eat a diet high in fiber and drink plenty of water.

I'd go with a 'Ship of Theseus' option, but where the replaced bits get stored in a warehouse and I can go and look at them.

Depends on whether I'm thinking about cool things I did or stupid/bad things I did. Mostly I think I have a lot of continuity, but there are times when I'm cringing at an embarrassing memory from decades ago and then it's helpful to think of that person as someone who doesn't exist anymore.

I imagine this must be more complicated for people with mental illness. I had a mercifully brief experience of severe anxiety from birth control a few years ago, during which I decided to move to France for a year. By the time I actually moved to France I had gone off the birth control and felt like a different person. Moving there turned out to be a really good experience, but it was also very surreal for the first few weeks, as I kept feeling like the decision to move there had been made by someone completely else than me. It felt like being Zaphod Beeblebrox. Very odd.

Madeline L'Engle has a lovely passage about how one of the joys of aging is still containing all your previous ages, so you can always be 7, and 17, and 37, and 70.

Interestingly, from what I can remember of childhood, I think I was more "me" pre-adolescence/puberty, and it took me a good couple of decades to get back the some of the conviction & certainty that I temporarily misplaced?

I am that person, there is exactly the same amount of me but the contexts within which i exist and from which itake most of my unexamined reactions has changed

There’s another beautiful take on this in Christopher Isherwood’s ‘A Single Man’:

Staring and staring into the mirror, it sees many faces within its face – the face of the child, the boy, the young man, the not-so-young man – all present still, preserved like fossils on superimposed layers, and, like fossils, dead.

Having a hard time getting a clear sense of myself 10 years ago--I know where I was in my career, etc.--and also getting my head around the options. They're fine, but I look at one and think "That's it," then I think the same thing about the next one. The one thing I feel fairly certain of is a) I get upset less often than I did 10 years ago, but b) I still get upset by stupid stuff more often than I should at my age. I'm still waiting for that Zen-like equanimity to take over my life.

continuous state of becoming

I definitely feel less lost and more “myself” now

I and that person are different individuals with almost nothing in common

very close to this

I am that person , and we are different individuals with almost nothing in common

Thus play I in one person many people,
And none contented: sometimes am I king;
Then treasons make me wish myself a beggar,
And so I am: then crushing penury
Persuades me I was better when a king;
Then am I king'd again: and by and by
Think that I am unking'd by Bolingbroke,
And straight am nothing: but whate'er I be,
Nor I nor any man that but man is
With nothing shall be pleased, till he be eased
With being nothing. Music do I hear?

As near as I can make it out, we each seem to be born with certain bents and inclinations that give an early shape to our 'self'. We then embark on an endless series of responses to external conditions which fall more readily along the lines of our innate inclinations and make use of the resources most easily accessible to us, but which can be shaped even more strongly and lastingly by the force of singular and powerful events.

Along the way we develop, adopt, adapt and discard an ever-changing set of heuristics that best fit the ever-changing conditions of our lives. The most enduring of these provide us with "continuity of self" across decades, but the whole set is always shifting about in response to the world.

iow, our self is made up of a little from column A marked 'same as before' and a little from column B marked 'different', kind of like the steady drift of genetic mutations.

'As we, or mother Dana, weave and unweave our bodies, Stephen said, from day to day, their molecules shuttled to and fro, so does the artist weave and unweave his image. And as the mole on my right breast is where it was when I was born, though all my body has been woven of new stuff time after time, so through the ghost of the unquiet father the image of the unliving son looks forth. In the intense instant of imagination, when the mind, Shelley says, is a fading coal, that which I was is that which I am and that which in possibility I may come to be. So in the future, the sister of the past, I may see myself as I sit here now but by reflection from that which then I shall be.'

I can draw a line to the person I was a decade ago and see...progression, I guess? I am ultimately the same person under it all, who has the same sense of humour and fears and all that, but I’m one who is more scarred by the past decade and that in itself has changed me a bit. I spent a lot of the last decade struggling with poor mental health - depression and then a period of several years after I was diagnosed with OCD - and to my surprise I look back on that period and I’ve learned stuff and moved on in my understanding of a lot of things since then, it wasn’t just a waste of time as I’d thought.

The pandemic has magnified a lot of things about myself which I like and want to do more with, but it’s also been tremendously hard on other things. I guess the main difference between now and then is age and experience, but strangely as time goes on I am more positive in my interactions with people (to the point a fellow ilxor calls me a “utopian”) and want to be around them more. If I told myself of a decade before that, I’d never have believed it.

missing options for misogynist / genius / messiah / alcoholic here

Lol self

I’ve been the same person since about 8th grade, 1992. Just a little more world-weary, I guess, and I’ve grown a bit in some ways. But that’s still me.

one thing about living in the same place for 20+ years and being part of an extended chosen family of weirdos is that I am reminded that I am the same person as I was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, because there are people who have known me that long, and there are others that I've only gotten to know in the past 2 or 3 years. I have an internal view of "me" and continuity of self, but I think it's something that is often challenged and/or reinforced by other people. I don't know if you can isolate the internal from the external perception. Maybe this only applies to cis-people; I don't want to generalize about trans people.

That’s true, I was struggling with that- whether I can trust my own perception of continuity. Am I just the unreliable narrator of my own story?

yes - and that's okay

everyone is somewhat unreliable

And here’s why-

i'm one long thruline of not posting

i know i didn't spell that right, but in searching to see if it's just one word in the dictionaries nowadays, i was very amused to find there's an NPR show called "Throughline".

Why have we kept our own names? Out of habit, purely out of habit. To make ourselves unrecognizable in turn. To render imperceptible, not ourselves, but what makes us act, feel, and think. Also because it's nice to talk like everybody else, to say the sun rises, when everybody knows it's only a manner of speaking. To reach, not the point where one no longer says I, but the point where it is no longer of any importance whether one says I.

#goals

The self is as real as money.

as somebody self-absorbed/solipsistic enough to have their own purpose(less) built ilx thread i feel like every use of i is always heavily heavily bracketed and mostly an epiphenomenon of grammar

do or do not, there is no I

to and fro in shadow from inner to outer shadow

from impenetrable self to impenetrable unself
by way of neither

as between two lit refuges whose doors once
neared gently close, once away turned from
gently part again

beckoned back and forth and turned away

heedless of the way, intent on the one gleam
or the other

unheard footfalls only sound

till at last halt for good, absent for good
from self and other

then no sound

then gently light unfading on that unheeded
neither

unspeakable home

if absolute amnesia = death, or death = absolute amnesia, what is any forgotten moment except a little death in a jet stream of infinite deaths?

Break the links between each moment, eschew the claims of the past self, reject time as the bondholder of the social contract with self

I fart more than I used to

Shackled lists of occupation
and accounts of time
poking at your motes in the mirror
multiplicities of you since birth—
how will I qualify to reek
of hydrangea and urine?

A teen fudges a rollie
while moping behind me,
familiar melody that
burnt glass tube.
Sometimes we are our forensics team
in poor resolution clipping,
burnt popcorn and oil
and verdure like a stiffy
are chewing us as we're giving the peace sign
and they note it
in the database.

Bruce Lee was onto something when he said the mind can be like water. So I think of it a bit like that - the self can be rigid and frozen, getting stuck and finding obstacles, or it can be liquid and flow through cracks and around objects, but the flowing does not change its nature - it was always water. We are always ourselves.

I fart more than I used to

huge apologies for neglecting this obvious answer as a poll choice

the only time I feel connected to my childhood self is during periods of anxiety and depression. because I had those as a kid, just didn't know what they were. I thought to myself a lot "man I freak out and get upset all the time, please tell me when I'm an adult, I won't still be like this!". I'm not like that in the same way (age, wisdom, and meds) but enough so that I sometimes find myself calling back "yea, yeah you will, but you'll know better how to deal with it, so cheer up"

I fart more than I used to

― stimmy stimmy yah (Simon H.), Thursday, March 4, 2021 9:27 AM bookmarkflaglink

^title of next Faith No More alb

I know I posted one of my own poems above, but it gets at how I feel about this— we're continuously becoming, the singular and stable self is a myth, and it would probably be best if we acknowledged such so we might end the poisonous idea of "sovereignty."

Human beings have a stable centre, but it's not actually what they conceive of as the self.

The other day I found an old external drive and lo and behold it contained the entirety of a webcomic I did from the ages of 15-18. I remember thinking "the art is rough but the jokes are funny" back then, but looking at it now, I don't recognize the person who wrote any of this. Or why I thought some of this stuff was funny, or even really what point I was trying to make with any of it. But I did have one interesting observation - a lot of the jokes related to video games and TV shows and dumb commercials that 34 year old me wouldn't know anything about, while at the time I kind of assumed most of the people reading would've gotten it, since all my friends at the time knew of this stuff too. And I see that my 6 year old son, when he's talking to classmates or grandparents or his teacher, he sometimes launches into long tirades about Mario or Peppa Pig or Lasagna Cat, just assuming that everyone knows what he's talking about, because he can't comprehend a world in which a "bigger person" doesn't know of the same things he does. And that even when you're 17 you still kind of have that in you. There's kind of a basic perspective shift there that I never would've thought about otherwise.

I know I posted one of my own poems above, but it gets at how I feel about this— we're continuously becoming, the singular and stable self is a myth, and it would probably be best if we acknowledged such so we might end the poisonous idea of "sovereignty."

― it's like edging for your mind (the table is the table), Thursday, March 4, 2021 9:48 AM (forty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

was gonna say this myself but less well

ppl are very attached to these accretions of habit and memory they have, myself included

Your ahem what now

I don't think what I wrote means that such accretions and habits have to be discarded or tossed away, but that each day changes how we relate to them as individuals, and thus how we relate to others, who then change how we relate to ourselves, and so on and so forth.

yes otm

deems there is no me, i'm everyone else

Becoming is a turbulent process in its own right. Neither it nor being should be romanticized imo.

Alternatives arent great mind

More weight, less heart.

One of the things I find very weird about myself is that my interests have not changed very much over the course of my life. Reading Treeship's post on the other thread about joining ilx at age 24 made me think about myself at 24 - because I was also very unhappy that year and would maybe have been happier if I'd joined ilx - and wonder what I would have posted about. And realized I prob would have posted a lot of crap about John Prine, Rudyard Kipling, E. Nesbit and Homicide, Life on the Street. Add Bruce Springsteen to that list and you're looking at 36-year-old me. I don't mind having that much continuity but I would like to be more flexible / less obsessive in my interests.

I definitely believe self is a story we weave and have to work at maintaining with any kind of coherency. And, really, romanticising is kind of fine with me. Perhaps what I mean is romanticising the alternatives is misplaced wisdom.

For me, a good chunk of selfhood and its continuity is the culture we tie ourselves to. I've noticed that since having kids I've experienced a kind of rupture with my past self (selves) - partly because of an absolute and lasting divide in consciousness that occurs at the moment of their birth, partly because priorities change and there's less time and if I'm honest less drive to devote to the cultural project, broadly speaking.

That last bit could also be on the 'why are you not posting' thread.

I simultaneously want to burn down Larkin's lines from Afternoons and absolutely agree with them: 'something is pushing them/to the side of their own lives'.

My interests have remained the same— after all, more than a decade ago, I graduated uni with a major in Creative Writing and minors in French and Music Composition. I think if anything, my knowledge and appreciation of those interests has simply broadened. And since I don't have kids and don't plan on it, I'm secure in the knowledge that I'll die one of those old poets who croaks surrounded by books and scraps of paper.

The other day I found an old external drive and lo and behold it contained the entirety of a webcomic I did from the ages of 15-18. I remember thinking "the art is rough but the jokes are funny" back then, but looking at it now, I don't recognize the person who wrote any of this.

Feel like this when I see my ILM posts from 15 yrs ago, tbh

I simultaneously want to burn down Larkin's lines from Afternoons and absolutely agree with them: 'something is pushing them/to the side of their own lives'.

Always find Larkin a good yardstick. Every few years I read 'Aubade' and think "Do I feel like this yet? No? Good".

Jesus fuck what a poem, I've never read that

I suspect Larkin felt like that when he was 15.

There is no person, I identify to some extent with a fiction constructed from apparent continuity of appearance which can be said to be no more than a statistical illusion or simply unknowable (karma). Subjectiviy such as it is contains time rather than the other way round so there is no change in that respect, but without time and other illusory appearance there is probably no self-reflective cognition. Hey, you asked!

the existence of time was probably the most remarkable discovery that life has achieved so far.

Fergie doesnt get enough credit really

"There is no such person as me either then or now" really should have been an option, sorry!

Did life discover time or do they co-arise as appearances or more precisely as interpretations of appearance? Can either be said to exist other than that? Can they be defined? Sorry, this is rhetorical but I'd actually say no to all of these. Life and time are surely remarkable but they don't really exist as such.

nothing exists as such

Could be a language problem.

Quite. Except that which exists. xp

I feel as if both life and time probably exist

a decade ago i had little left of myself as i was on caring duty for bh in the midst of her cancer evilness.
for years i literally disappeared.
whereas now, things are rather different.
i am 53 and now rediscovering my own way to live.

(sorry to drag a fun thread into a dark corner, but hey, you asked ()

Karl posted this on the "why aren't you posting" thread, re an old ILX thread:

B) i don't recognize the person that wrote it, while also feeling really, really dumb and recognizing that's still me,

I found an old post of mine from 2004 under an old nickname that was so misogynist and nasty I was shocked. I think this was from a period of time I came here just to troll Geir (who I'd heard of) and I stayed to troll other people, but it felt so surprising that I would find it acceptable to say something like that, even to a stranger.

fwiw, I think the most durable area of continuity between my younger self and present self are what I find pleasure in.

when I examine this it makes sense. seeking pleasure is one of the two biggest motivators for most of our actions, along with avoiding what we fear. life tends to modify our fears at a faster rate than our pleasures, so pleasures have a greater continuity.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I’m hardly the same person who voted in this poll.

This helps me to believe in the continuity of self:

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/2d/76/c9/2d76c958bbda9baeae73a642adb49e75.jpg

Depressing if true

I had a severe tbi 5 years ago. A very good friend asked me at about 3 months post-injury, just after my release from in-patient-dom, “do you notice differences in your personality or behavior?” My response then was “i am definitely the same, just worse.” By which I meant that my previous defects or weaknesses—in say, executive function, or in navigating between tasks, or in managing conflicting instructions— were now hugely magnified. (Later, and over time, I would learn that I was now um, very dysfunctional in certain roles). Anyhow, my response backinaday was not a bad take for where I was, then.

Buuut there was a universe of other differences that I could NOT really perceive. It took a long time to persuade me, but the recovering TBI patient can have an extraordinary lack of insight. For all the difference that I could notice, there was so so much more that I could not see. And that I STILL cannot see. Because I still feel like, just “me.”

There are many tasks for which you can say “ah, I used to be able to do x, now I cannot,” and that inability to do is plain to you, as a patient and person.

However, it took much more time to make me BELIEVE that “in the past I would have felt like y and acted like z, while now I would feel and act differently.” Gaining even that level of insight years, and a lot if heartbreak. Having your partner say “you are not the person I knew,” that is hard. And it’s not either persons fault. And it is not to be cured. Your “self” changed in ways you don’t perceive. But everyone else does.

oh there is no self only behaviour, surely every fule knoes that?
& since there can be no self I can't complete this.
For there is no I

Loved your post, Hunt3r.

That reminds me of the plot of the film The Mind Benders (1963) starring Dirk Bogarde in which he goes into an isolation tank and then gets mentally reprogrammed while his brain is soft and then his wife knows he's a different person but he fights her over it.

Never heard of it but def will search out if i can!

Great post hunt3r

TY all. Been reupping my 90s zen sitting and thinking, I find its been more effective than a lot of other things at settling myself.🤷🏻‍♂️

Yes, great post Hunt3r.

Dirk Bogarde was a great actor and animal advocate, on top of being really dreamy.