Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase 4 & Beyond (and a chance to change your vote)

Young me as infatuated with the classic spider-woman. That was a badass costume.

“It failed. Sony tried to make a movie that was a different type of superhero movie.”

The Microsoft error message - YOU have made an error and the computer has now crashed.

All the Sony Spider-man spin-offs have been stinkers (if not flops)

I like the Venom movies, they are dumb and entertaining, and I think they did ok?

the venom movies are great. they should just be making more venom movies

They did very well - 7th biggest film each year. Probably a combination of a character introduced in the earlier Spider-Man films, Tom Hardy having a good old time, and body horror (Michelle Williams' wigs)

Yeah, sorry, I meant they (these Sony movies) were *not* all flops, but imo they were all stinkers, though I guess ymmv with "Venom" movies, because I don't think they are necessarily "good," though it can be argued that makes them better.

What I also don't understand is that Sony keeps making and marketing movies based on Spider man affiliated IP, but the Spiderman character only has appeared in MCU shit for nine years now. so do these Sony films, like this one or morbius or venom, make reference to Spider-man?

My understanding (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) is that "Sony's Spider-Man Universe" is a shared universe in which Peter Parker hasn't been introduced yet; although apparently Madame Web makes a clumsy effort to allude to Uncle Ben & baby Peter, which may be why it's set in the early 2000s. I guess you see this universe briefly in Across the Spider-Verse, when they universe-hop into the Venom convenience store or whatever.

I will probably watch all the MCU movies and tv shows until they stop making them, even if I recognize it’s been diminishing returns the last few years. The completist in me will… complete this universe.

But I have absolutely no interest in the Sony-verse, and I’ve also stopped watching all the DC movies since Justice League. Never looked back.

Don't sleep on "The Batman"! (it's not a "DCEU" movie, obv)

I think the original plan was that the "Sony Spider-Man Universe" would have Tom Holland's Spider-Man, and he'd be in both those movies and the MCU movies, and maybe if it went well, there would be some people appearing in one loaned to the other - and then negotiations broke down, and at one point there was going to be only two Spider-Man films and that was that, then apparently Tom Holland personally intervened! and things were smoothed out again, but without much of the original plan except Michael Keaton in Venom 2!

This would all have folded immediately if Venom hadn't been in a hit, is my impression - there's a third Venom film out this year (after Aaron Taylor-Johnson as Kraven the Hunter, which looks like the kind of disaster that some are describing Madame Web as) and I guess if that does well, then there juice in... Untitled Hypno-Hustler film? <groan>

Gail Simone was giving a boost to people tweeting about the theory that someone at Sony was idly searching for “villain team” ideas for their Spider properties and came up with her version of DC’s Sinister Six, which would explain the weird announcement that that Sony was making some minor luchador spider-character movie and why Kraven seems like he’s more into protecting wildlife than hunting it in the trailer for that property

The next dot to connect was Madame Web team -> their take on Birds of Prey, down to a woman in a wheelchair coordinating

honestly, all these things start to look like each other eventually so who even knows

i’ve also stopped watching all the DC movies since Justice League. Never looked back.

well they are all terrible with two exceptions; the second Suicide Squad (which presumably will be some kind of tonal launching pad for James Gunn's attempt to fix this 'universe') and I will stand up for the Flash because it is really stupid and doesn't pretend not to be.

Second "Suicide Squad" (and "Peacemaker") is tons of fun. Between that and "Guardians," I'm all for movies based on obscure (to me) characters/teams, but only as long as Gunn is doing it. But, like, a Gunn "Superman"? I don't even know what a good "Superman" movie needs, but I'm pretty sure the stuff Gunn brought to the aforementioned is not it.

A lot of the recent Marvel misfires, there's just nothing at stake, which more or less means the things hinge entirely on the FX, even more than usual. But the FX have not been particularly interesting, by and large. Think of the supposed visual splendors of "The Eternals," one of the most dull and drab of all the MCU (and the one that set the slump in motion), vs. the most recent "Guardians," which is popping with color and inventive visuals.

The first Suicide Squad movie (the one with Will Smith) was less bad than any Marvel movie I’ve seen post-first GOTG. Smith and Robbie’s charisma goes a long way.

Has there been a particularly good superhero movie that flopped yet?

Finn’s second one.

Jesus fuck, autocorrect

Gunn’s second one.

Super? That one had such a fucked-up theatrical release.

The second Suicide Squad lost about 20 million.

yeah I think the reputation of the first one tainted it unfairly. also it was a weird pandemic release from what i remember

If you count Dredd, that too.

Weird. The second Suicide Squad had a lot more heart (who’d have thought Starro could be sympathetic?) plus no Jared, less Jai, and no cringy Flag/Enchantress romance. 13 year difference maybe didn’t bother everyone, but Cara’s youth gave Flag groomer vibes. Maybe TDK, Weasel and Polka-Dot Man humor was too much for folk?

it came out three weeks after cinemas reopened and was streaming hours beforehand

Gunn's Suicide Squad was great, miles better than Ayer's one.

Also spawned Cena's Peacemaker show which was a blast.

Controp: Jai Courtney was actually good as Captain Boomerang, possibly for the first time ever.

Speaking of the MCU, I, too, have more or less enjoyed most of the movie/TV releases; I think I've seen all of them in the theaters except for "The Eternals" and "Iron Man 2" (which remain MCU low-points, imo). I've even enjoyed less liked installments like "Thor 2" and "Black Widow." However, I haven't seen all the TV shows yet. Skipped "Secret Invasion," haven't watched "What If?" and only last night realized I never got around to "Echo." She's another character I know nothing about, but the first ep was pretty solid, and felt a little different, which is good.

BTW, this last year has truly been a banner moment for on-screen Native American representation/casting, hasn't it? "Echo," "Reservation Dogs," "The Curse," "True Detective" and "Killers of the Flower Moon." (Maybe more I'm missing?) Admittedly, it's sometimes the same actors, but it's a good (belated) start. Hopefully it's not a one-and-done trend and the correction sticks.

I've been going through everything in order with the family. We're currently almost done with Ms. Marvel, which is fun and cute but probably my least favorite of the television series so far. It doesn't seem very grounded and the bad guys and their conflict isn't that engaging to me, but I like the tone of it.

Moon Knight > Loki > Wandavision >>> Falcon/Winter Soldier = Hawkeye > Ms. Marvel

The first half of Wandavision is probably my favorite of all, but by the end when it was color coded energy blargles it lost a lot of its charm.

As far as the movies, we just watched Thor: Love & Thunder. It was fun but leaned too far into goofiness. Thor 3 was one of my favorites and it was hard to see that perfect balance go sideways. We started going through these a year and a half ago and it's strange to think we've almost caught up with current releases.

She-Hulk
Werewolf
Wakanda Forever
Quantamania
Secret Invasion
Loki 2
The Marvels
Echo

I'm most looking forward to She-Hulk, least excited about Secret Invasion.

If my 9 year old has seen all of this stuff, is Echo too mature for her? I see that it's rated more mature and I'm not sure what that entails. We might skip that one, with her at least.

I really don't feel like watching secret invasion, will the Marvels make any sense if I skip it?

I would be wary of letting a 9yo watch Echo. It’s not as brutal as the Netflix Marvel shows but it trends that way. Probably best to watch them first by yourself and judge from there.

Yeah, first ep has plenty of blood/murder.

Don't know if watching "Secret Invasion" would make "The Marvels" make more sense, but there's not way it would make it better, heh. However, probably helps to see "Ms. Marvel" before "The Marvels." Maybe "WandaVision."

My tally of these:

She-Hulk

Werewolf

Wakanda Forever

Quantamania

Secret Invasion

Loki 2

The Marvels

Echo

I’ve diligently watched everything but let the wife and kids skip the stinkers. Is Secret Invasion as bad as Iron Man 2, Thor 2, and the Eternals?

Yes

Bits of it are fine but it’s mostly a pile of nonsense

Secret Invasion will arguably cause The Marvels to make less sense - as a comic book reader, I'm pretty inured to "oh this probably happened between issues of this other thing that contradicts it".

I wouldn't say nothing happens in Secret Invasion - it kills a couple of characters from the films, but mostly it's the closest thing to a Nick Fury TV show that you'll get, so if you want to see him scowl and bark (and have a few good character moments) it's good for that.

I liked The Marvels plenty - it's in the odd position that it's both the shortest film and has two obvious "tacked on for the memes" sequences - but the core plot and relationship between the three leads (and Fury) are all well done.

Also I dug that SI was operating in a genre (paranoid political thriller) that the MCU doesn't really do - the closest would be The Winter Soldier, if you squint?

Any five minutes of it is better than any five minutes of Malekith, or Tony Stark's Daddy Issues.

As far as the movies, we just watched Thor: Love & Thunder. It was fun but leaned too far into goofiness.

I maintain that it should've leaned harder into goofiness, and that they should've made more explicit the fact that the entire movie is a load of shaggy dog BS being whipped up on the fly by unreliable narrator Korg. It could've been a new Princess Bride. Something got seriously lost in translation/studio interference.

Yeah, that would have worked. It was tonally off-balance with wackiness and then deadly serious bits. James Gunn manages to make that work, but it didn't really click here.

I think it's maybe because the Guardians themselves are funny, well-written characters; the humor comes from their interaction/bickering. Whereas the central joke of Thor is that he is *not* funny, he's a pompous straight man, which can be silly, but just writing jokes around him is not innately funny. Iirc the smart move of "Ragnarok" was literally separating Thor from the drama, cordoning him off in his own wacky story while the serious stuff transpired elsewhere.

I like these movies but they're pretty simple-minded; I think you could easily skip Wandavision and Secret Invasion and Ms Marvel and still make complete sense of The Marvels.

("Why is Nick Fury in space?" "A. Cause he's a space guy now" is pretty much all you need to know, for better and worse.)

I got really bored with GOTG3 and stopped watching after 30 mins, maybe I should try again. I think, even if the quality of some of these movies is still quite good, the repetition is definitely getting boring.

Versus, say, Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, which are doing plotlines I've seen countless times before in other Star Treks, but are somehow still pretty fresh and fun.

GOTG3 has the best Adrian Belew reference in the Marvel Universe, for this I give it many thanks.

X-Men '97 is super fun

I wasn't even a fan of the 90s show back then (and almost every boy I knew was!) but I'm enjoying this too

Just announced that Julia Garner will play the/a Silver Surfer, which rules.

Oh, right on. I have been 100% 'no notes' about the Fantastic Four casting thus far.

Yeah, the casting has been great so far. Very interested to see if they can stick the landing with the Dr. Doom casting.

xpost And I'm sure the entire open-minded and inclusive fan community will be completely onboard with this casting decision.............

the/a Silver Surfer, which rules

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dlYOD1_WU4

X-Men ‘97’s latest episode: HOLY SMOKES!!

I am very close to crowing this the best MCU product.