Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase 4 & Beyond (and a chance to change your vote)

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Poll Closing Date: Wednesday, 1 June 2022 00:00 (in 1 year)

Setting the poll end date for a few weeks after the current premiere date (25 March 2022) of Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. Let the results spur the postmortem. Current plans: six feature films and eight Disney+ tv shows.

Classic
Dud
Mixed Bag
It started out one thing and became another
Please stop asking me to have an opinion about this
Other


(show hidden tics) (WmC), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 11:48 (four months ago) link

'I could have just avoided the thread altogether but because clicking through to spray the room down with needless haterade is an addiction akin to the most raging of junk habits, allow me to just state for the 457,017,381st time that the MCU is the nadir of Western culture.'

There, I saved some of you some time if you know how to copy + paste.

OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:03 (four months ago) link

Crazy to think we're now 15 months and counting with no new MCU (unless you count the final season of Agents of SHIELD, which even I don't anymore).

OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:06 (four months ago) link

the Helstrom TV show started on Hulu this week

which apparently sort of counts

Number None, Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:12 (four months ago) link

Oh. Well, that was a stealth-ass debut.

OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:16 (four months ago) link

it looks, and by all accounts is, absolutely terrible

Number None, Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:16 (four months ago) link

I could have avoided the thread but it's fun to talk shit about garbage every once in a while

anyway, dud

it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:20 (four months ago) link

Simon, I left you a present upthread. Please use it in good health.

OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:25 (four months ago) link

you forgot "fascist"

it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:26 (four months ago) link

Sorry, I very quickly fell asleep, what was that you were saying?

ANNNNNNYway.

OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:29 (four months ago) link

I could have avoided the thread but it's fun to talk shit about garbage every once in a while

new board descrip pls

you are like a scampicane, there's calm in your fries (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:31 (four months ago) link

Glad this thread is here to get you to stop social distancing, bg! Adopt herd immunity!

OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:37 (four months ago) link

work on yr nerd immunity imo

ok ok I'm actually done for now enjoy folks

it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:42 (four months ago) link

Gentlemen you can’t needlessly rehash something for the 457,017,381st time in here, this is the marvel cinematic universe phase 4 and beyond thread

Gab B. Nebsit (wins), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:51 (four months ago) link

Looool

hiroyoshi tins in (Sgt. Biscuits), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:54 (four months ago) link

Did u know that if your eyes roll with enough force that they can actually detach from their stalks and fly out u face? I wish I hadn't had to discover that first-hand just this very moment. Dang.

OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 12:55 (four months ago) link

is this the thread where we can talk about andrew garfield and tobey maguire maybe appearing as spider-men in the third tom holland spider-man movie? because i can't be fucked looking to see if it's been mentioned elsewhere

you are like a scampicane, there's calm in your fries (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 13:09 (four months ago) link

Hadn't read that. I did read that Jamie Foxx will be playing Electro again, which certainly suggests some multiversal fuckery.

OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 13:11 (four months ago) link

I liked the look of Jamie Foxx's Electro, while hating the electric eel origin / Max Dillon as social misfit portrayal. Andrew and Tobey were good, before we knew Marvel could do better. I've compartmentalized Sony's properties from the MCU, so the last two Spider-Man have far exceeded expectations.

Phase 4, most looking forward to Shang-Chi, and hoping they nail the Paul Gulacy visual tone. Expecting to be most surprised by Eternals. If/as the movies go cosmic/magical/horror, looking forward to how they ground them.

Beyond - FF and X-Men. About damn time.

the body of a spider... (scampering alpaca), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 13:49 (four months ago) link

Are we allowing MCU television in these threads as well? Cuz it looks like the Maslany She-Hulk was just a rumor that she debunked in a recent interview, sadly.

soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 14:08 (four months ago) link

most looking forward to Shang-Chi, and hoping they nail the Paul Gulacy visual tone.

Yeah the credits are going to say "based on the character created by Steve Englehart and Jim Starlin" and I'm going to be sad because it's not "based on the character in that holy-shit awesome run by Doug Moench and Paul Gulacy, DUUUUUDE."

(show hidden tics) (WmC), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 14:21 (four months ago) link

Pretty sure I first "heard" "Rhiannon" thanks to Master of Kung Fu.

the body of a spider... (scampering alpaca), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 14:22 (four months ago) link

So much character fleshing-out that was lovable but verged on dumb...Black Jack Tarr becoming a big Frank Frazetta fan, lol. (This might have been in the Mike Zeck or Gene Day days, can't remember.)

(show hidden tics) (WmC), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 14:26 (four months ago) link

okay lol @ "nerd immunity"

shout-out to his family (DJP), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 14:27 (four months ago) link

it looks like the Maslany She-Hulk was just a rumor that she debunked in a recent interview, sadly.

I don't know, I smell a rat. Kind of like when Taika denied he was making a Star Wars movie and then was all, psych, I'm making a Star Wars movie.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 20 October 2020 14:31 (four months ago) link

I assume she's still negotiating her contract, and Ruffalo's tweet improved her payday/terms.

(show hidden tics) (WmC), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 14:35 (four months ago) link

Oh I hope it's a feint, makes sense since she called it a "press release that got out of hand", which doesn't come across as quite the strong denial the article I read implied. I'm still hopeful she shows up in it.

soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 16:28 (four months ago) link

maybe she plays jennifer and somebody else plays she hulk? and she plays "the voice in her head"? it's a weird bit of pr thus far.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 20 October 2020 17:21 (four months ago) link

Just negotiating phase/tactics. Though I'd love to see his take on the character.

Nhex, Monday, 26 October 2020 20:44 (four months ago) link

it's a meaty fuckin' role!

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Monday, 26 October 2020 20:45 (four months ago) link

lol oscar isaac hated working for disney so much during Star Wars, wonder what kind of sweetheart deal they’re offering him for this

you are like a scampicane, there's calm in your fries (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 26 October 2020 20:49 (four months ago) link

Well, much like Finn his role got worse and worse as the series went on, so I don't blame him

Nhex, Monday, 26 October 2020 21:03 (four months ago) link

one month passes...

Is this the right thread for this(?) Kate Bishop on-set images have surfaced: https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/marvel/hawkeye/hawkeye-set-video-gives-us-a-much-better-look-at-hailee-steinfeld-and-jeremy-renner-a180551#gs.mgnaf1

wet tip hen ax (egg drop mix) (morrisp), Wednesday, 2 December 2020 23:43 (three months ago) link

The casting announcements for Spider-Man 3 make it really look like they are just going to repeat the multiverse thing that worked so well in Into the Spider-Verse with a live action version. Even for the MCU this seems really lazy. Happy to be proven wrong, but I really liked watching the first two with my son and this makes me way less excited for a third one.

I mean, given the Dr. Strange sequel’s subtitle, the multiverse was already long planned, but this seems like a questionable move.

soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 06:03 (two months ago) link

Even for the MCU this seems really lazy.

McKenna was nominated for both an Emmy and a Hugo, for writing a multiverse story, seven years before Spider-Verse came out tbfttl

huge rant (sic), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 06:36 (two months ago) link

A bunch more Kate Bishop set pics circulating today; Steinfeld looks like a great casting choice.

good karma, my aesthetic (morrisp), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 06:51 (two months ago) link

Just misread that as 'Seinfeld' and I'm still laughing from that mental image.

You will notice a small sink where your sofa once was. (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 12:11 (two months ago) link

McKenna was nominated for both an Emmy and a Hugo, for writing a multiverse story, seven years before Spider-Verse came out tbfttl

Oh I don't have any issue with McKenna and, again, this is total speculation just based on the casting, it's more just surprise that they'd use the Spider-Man film to redo the Spider-verse think so soon again.

soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 14:34 (two months ago) link

It may be wise to speculate with caution, as you may recall that a lot of the pre-release assumptions about the last Spidey flick were upended (ie the thing about Mysterio dropping in from a different earth).

You will notice a small sink where your sofa once was. (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 14:42 (two months ago) link

they'll need to add more Spiders-Man and Girls if they're going to sorta hit the key diversity theme

Nhex, Wednesday, 9 December 2020 14:54 (two months ago) link

Maybe this is Mysterio running the same scam again. Maybe every future Marvel movie will end by revealing that actually it was Mysterio.

Piven After Midnight (The Yellow Kid), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 14:55 (two months ago) link

iirc doesn't Mysterio make that multiverse claim himself in the movie, as part of his ruse? Between the timeline resolution of the Avengers, Spider-verse and Dr. Strange title, and possibly what they hinted at with the Vision/Witch show, they're definitely leaning in to this. Someone versed in the comics could maybe make a good guess as to the overarching plot or big bad. I have no idea. Does Captain Marvel 2 have a title or casting? They've hinted at introducing Adam Warlock a few times now, I think. Certainly a multiverse scenario could allow, say, the Fantastic Four to just pop in as a deus ex reboot at the end of a movie. Lots of ways Marvel can go, assuming they even want another giant overarching crossover scenario.

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 9 December 2020 15:08 (two months ago) link

Yeah, I have no issue with the multiverse idea and that's clearly where we are heading, I was just saying that it seems kinda lazy to launch into it with a do-over of the multiple Spider-Men thing. Especially since the Spider-Man flick is slated before the Dr. Strange sequel, which will obviously lean heavily into the multiverse too.

soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 15:13 (two months ago) link

I just have no idea why they'd want to maintain any association with the awful Andrew Garfield movies

Number None, Wednesday, 9 December 2020 15:26 (two months ago) link

there's (un)surprisingly a small, vocal fanbase online who grew up with and liked those movies

Nhex, Wednesday, 9 December 2020 15:43 (two months ago) link

i can't lie though - i am excited to see all those jabronis in one big battle royale. even the characters who died! let's get Topher Grace in there while we're at it

Nhex, Wednesday, 9 December 2020 15:44 (two months ago) link

hoping they insert Mulaney's Spider-Ham Who-Framed-Roger-Rabbit-style

DJP, Wednesday, 9 December 2020 16:17 (two months ago) link

It could be cool if they do it right.

It’s kind of funny that a generation will grow up thinking of multiple Spideys as a basic “Spider-Man” feature, when for most of Marvel’s history, there was only one Parker, he was a very singular hero... even while there were a few different Caps, Thors, Captain Marvels, etc. (I’m talking back in the ’80s, long before there were a zillion versions of every character.)

good karma, my aesthetic (morrisp), Wednesday, 9 December 2020 16:21 (two months ago) link

I mean, a generation already has grown up thinking multiple Spideys are a basic Spider-Man feature; Ben Reilly, although created in the 70s, came into his own circa 1994.

DJP, Wednesday, 9 December 2020 16:29 (two months ago) link

She’d been finding new happiness on a super-team
‘Til a robot killed her husband in one of those crushing scenes
What was she to do, where was she to go, she was just left to wanderrrr

grab bag cum trash bag (sic), Sunday, 28 February 2021 18:10 (three days ago) link

So in her car to Westview, the foundation was poured
She was there to start a family but her heart had been torn
She had grief
Had despair
She was there
That’s how she made the hex

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Sunday, 28 February 2021 18:40 (three days ago) link

hm. well! So!

I'm not totally sold on the sudden shift of style here? Considering the "dark things lurking within the candy coating" approach we've been presented with thus far on the inside of the hex and the Iron Giant-esque "Scooby-Doo gang wrests control of the case from the uncaring government agency" story on the outside, this episode may have pulled a little too far outside of its lane for me to stay suspended in disbelief. Hahn (who has been a mostly understated joy until now) got backed into a corner with Agatha's dialogue and ended up sounding like a didactic Pinhead from Hellraiser, leading Wanda from set to set in an attempt to crack her egg. Everything got very serious, very melodramatic, very SURPRISE REVEAL! PLOT TWIST! SUDDEN SHOCKING RELATIONSHIP POINT! END ON THE POPULAR NAME OF THE CHARACTER WHICH HAS NEVER! BEEN! USED! UNTIL NOW!!! Before it began, this was how i thought the whole series was gonna be like and I've been pleased we've mostly found ways around the obvious. Until now. Which suggests the producer are gonna fall back on heavy dark expository when they need to move the rock forward instead of playing by the rules they established and that's a little disappointing.

As far as the level of melodrama in both action and script, I think that's really a question of where you're at as a viewer? I find the "love is never having to say you're sorry" over-intentionally humanizing moments of the MCU more than a little hamhanded and too simplistic, sadistic and freudian (oh, so the reason she's created a simulated sitcom asylum is because her mother and father were killed by a bomb when they were watching Dick Van Dyke, say no more, everything makes sense now) for me to feel genuinely touched... but we're all pretty bruised right now so, if it works for you, who am I to judge? On a separate point - and one that likely deserves an essay if one hasn't already been written - given that Kirby/Lee were doing Douglas Sirk-style hypermelodrama romance comics long before they repurposed much of that angst into the Avengers and X-Men should indicate just how baked-in to the formula this glurge is. People have been bitching about too much of it being in the books for over sixty years, why should now be any different?

The television guy in me is frustrated at the lack of cohesion and whiplash between narratives and tone from episode to episode. Another pass or two on the totality of the script might have integrated everything more seamlessly so that we don't have the bad guy's origin showing up near the end of the "film" or have us forced into spending nearly two (well-crafted but probably not necessary) hours in TV Land without a little more guidance as to the parameters of the larger story arc.

The comic book guy in me doesn't appreciate the apparent turn toward the "mad chaos witch" storyline and Wanda as unwitting hysteric being manipulated by impossibly greater power. Yes, it's a plot that dates back to ancient Grecian drama and yes I am sure they'll put a bow on this before the end to show Wanda controlling her power and reclaiming her sense of self and self-control and STRONG WOMEN so that Twitter doesn't eat them alive... but the fact remains that a LOT of Marvel's modern roster of strong female superhero characters in TV/movies/comics (Black Widow, Gamora, Wasp, Jessica Jones, and now Wanda) come out of "abuse as character development" crucibles. I'm not happy to see that trope re-emerge here.

More geekily, White Vision is my least favorite incarnation of the character and, while I'm sure that the impending Vision v Vision action sequence is going to look very good, it's of extremely little interest to me.

BUT! WandaVision has been surprisingly ambitious in what it has been trying to do and how it presents its story and it remains unpredictable and engaging. The production values are super high and the acting and writing are generally better than they have any real reason to be. It continues to navigate the narrow tightrope of not being too much for the comic nerds and not leaving them out of the conversation. I'm still anxious to see the way they tie this up, but - with plenty more of this on the horizon - I am not exactly gonna be sorry to see it go or clamoring for a return to this style. Nonetheless, WV has been an unexpected improvement over past attempt to introduce this universe to episodic long-form visual media for a modern audience. I genuinely want to see what Marvel Studios does after this, which surprises me.

I've also been amused at people confusing bold and spoiler tags on this thread, so thanks for that.

Thanks for reading my free substack. If you like content like this, consider becoming a premium subscriber.

That's not really my scene (I'm 41) (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 28 February 2021 20:20 (three days ago) link

I agree with the general complaint re: the development/origin of female characters in the Marvel Cinematic Universe but leaving out that virtually every hero they’ve introduced has been put through the meat grinder is suspect to me. I think the only one who hasn’t been through some abjectly awful shit as part of their story is Falcon?

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Sunday, 28 February 2021 21:43 (three days ago) link

Like, the primary way depth is added to all of these characters is by doing evil, shitty to them, whether it’s part of their origin stories or part of how they’re used in the stories. It’s virtually a genre requirement.

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Sunday, 28 February 2021 21:47 (three days ago) link

I also think that pointing out all of the shit that has happened to this character and exploring her reaction to it is a reasonable hook for a storyline; the show after all is reminding us of what MCU Wanda has gone through already. Honestly, the criticism of Unnecessary Trauma is more apt for how they’re handling Monica, considering that they killed off her mother in order to make her a sympathetic foil for Wanda and the other major character grappling with loss when, in the comics, both of her parents were alive and well throughout most if not all of her Avengers tenure.

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Sunday, 28 February 2021 21:52 (three days ago) link

oh, so the reason she's created a simulated sitcom asylum is because her mother and father were killed by a bomb when they were watching Dick Van Dyke, say no more, everything makes sense now

I read this more as: watching old sitcoms is how she dealt with trauma from a young age and now as a powered adult she's dealing with trauma by living in an old sitcom.

Chokeslamming A Memory (Old Lunch), Sunday, 28 February 2021 21:59 (three days ago) link

Old Lunch OTM

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Sunday, 28 February 2021 22:10 (three days ago) link

Yea that's how I read it too. It's literally what she was doing before her parents were killed.

Red Nerussi (Neanderthal), Sunday, 28 February 2021 22:21 (three days ago) link

I read this more as: watching old sitcoms is how she dealt with trauma from a young age and now as a powered adult she's dealing with trauma by living in an old sitcom.

Right, exactly and of course; we're saying the same thing. But that's extremely simplistic and A->B in execution and dare i say "comic-booky". And that is fine unless you also want me to have some kind of deep emotional connection to the characters as complexly formed individuals, which is what the direction seems to suggest. It's asking to have it both ways imo. Again, if that works for you, I'm not complaining! Just doesn't get anywhere near my feelings.

leaving out that virtually every hero they’ve introduced has been put through the meat grinder is suspect to me

i mean, there's a lot of different marvel origin stories and ways to read them? You could say that Captain America was bullied as a kid, Thor had an abusive father, Tony Stark was a POW and let's not even talk about poor Uncle Ben, etc; but it's women who bear the brunt of the worst abuse - especially as an expression of or manifestation against abject helplessness - as origin in comics and who are routinely immobilized or unable to control themselves under duress.

the criticism of Unnecessary Trauma is more apt for how they’re handling Monica

Absolutely, you're helping my point.

G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 28 February 2021 22:35 (three days ago) link

It goes without saying that there are also far fewer female characters so how each one is represented becomes that much more important! Marvel has been less horrible about this of late: Carol Danvers and Kamala Khan and Squirrel Girl and Moon Girl are good examples of their evolution. And of course trauma doesn't have to equal abuse: the woman Thor saga that Jason Aaron put together (presumably coming to a multiplex near you soon enough) hinges on Jane Foster dying of cancer. I'm just not excited about a project this big and influential and groundbreaking reverting to the mean.

G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 28 February 2021 22:40 (three days ago) link

The whole family used American sitcom families as a model, an aspiration for the life they wanted to build. They directly used the language of American sitcoms as a practical tool of communication, while collectively fantasizing about an ideal future.

grab bag cum trash bag (sic), Sunday, 28 February 2021 22:41 (three days ago) link

xps

grab bag cum trash bag (sic), Sunday, 28 February 2021 22:42 (three days ago) link

otm

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 28 February 2021 22:43 (three days ago) link

i am tempted to grab a random issue of OHotMU and start making a list of origin stories that don't explicitly hinge on trauma (Wundarr the Aquarian came to mind immediately) but i really should be doing something productive...

G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 28 February 2021 22:47 (three days ago) link

I am specifically talking about the MCU implementation of these characters.

Iron Man: was blown up by his own company’s weapons and had to invent something to keep shrapnel out of his heart
Captain America: was locked in ice for 70 years, losing all of his friends and the love of his life
Thor: his brother betrayed and tried to kill him
Hulk: became Hulk (yes this is shaky)
Hawkeye: pretty clean origin but then gets put through the wringer in the movies by having Quicksilver die in front of him, then having his whole family blipped out of existence, then having his best friend sacrifice herself for him
Black Widow: sterilized as part of her assassin training
Winter Soldier: physically mutilated, rebuilt by Nazis into a brainwashed super soldier, murders Iron Man’s parents
Black Panther: father murder in front of him
Scarlet Witch: parents killed by Stark tech, brother killed by Ultron, lover killed by Thanos
Vision: relatively clean origin, although he was intended to be the murderous new chassis for Ultron, but then killed by his lover, brought back from the dead, then killed by Ultron
Falcon: secret agent with flying backpack, relatively clean origin
War Machine: clean origin, accidentally paralyzed by Vision during Civil War
Ant Man: incarcerated for Robin Hooding, divorced during incarceration and stripped of parental rights
Spider Man: indirectly got his uncle killed
Star Lord: father murdered his mother
Gamora: father was Thanos
Rocket: tortured into existence in a lab
Groot: clean origin as far as we know
Drax: family murdered by Thanos
Mantis: held hostage by Ego
Dr Strange: lost surgical use of his hands in a car accident
Shuri: clean origin, almost lost her brother and had to flee Wakanda
Okoye: clean origin, chose to serve an unstable usurper, boyfriend tried to kill the rightful king
Captain Marvel: kidnapped and brainwashed into helping oppressors
Pepper Potts: clean origin, tortured several times due to association with Stark
Nebula: father was Thanos

I’m not specifically arguing that all of these scenarios are created equal; I’m arguing that there is more than enough suffering to go around in the MCU and that while I’d argue that Wanda is a strong contender for getting the worst of it, the baggage being brought to the table here is much less MCU-driven and more mapping shitty comics events onto the MCU iterations, which is understandable but possibly also unfair.

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Sunday, 28 February 2021 23:29 (three days ago) link

I immediately thought of Ironheart as a character driven by her genius rather than trauma to build an armored suit and become a hero and then I remembered the heaps of trauma (dad, stepdad, and best friend all gunned down in drive-by shootings) so...welp

Chokeslamming A Memory (Old Lunch), Sunday, 28 February 2021 23:30 (three days ago) link

lol, I keep thinking 'happy-go-lucky' is the key here, so...Amadeus Cho? Oh, shit, no, parents killed, whoops.

Chokeslamming A Memory (Old Lunch), Sunday, 28 February 2021 23:33 (three days ago) link

well i appreciate your diligence to write all that out! i could nitpick some of those - if it follows the comics at all (and given that Yelena Belova is on the way, it likely will) Black Widow's MCU La Femme Nikita Red Room experience offers a lot worse than sterilization, Gamora and Nebula were tortured and forced to kill things by their father as a child - but I think we're a lot closer to agreeing on this than not.

I'll refine my point then to say not that "women in the MCU deal with unfair trauma" but that the TYPE of trauma they experience disproportionately leans into dehumanization and othering and loss of independence and that sort of storytelling has a long history in superhero entertainment as intentionally titillating and misogynist and just being lazy.

If you'd like to extend the idea that loss of control and independence is dehumanization, the other character that gets this the worst is Rocket, suggesting a fairly uneasy analogue the more you think about it.

G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 28 February 2021 23:43 (three days ago) link

"Who will we treat with more human dignity in our storytelling origins: the greatest spy in history or the raccoon?"

G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 28 February 2021 23:44 (three days ago) link

for reasonably happy-go-lucky non-traumatized marvel heroes, i would point you to my early post with Kamala Khan and Squirrel Girl and Moon Girl... all of whom are recently reiterated characters written and/or drawn and/or reimagined by women, so that may tell you something too.

G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 28 February 2021 23:51 (three days ago) link

Secret War really took a big dump on Kamala Khan’s momentum. Thought the first dozen issues of that series were great before they started shoehorning her into crossovers and teams.

Joe Biden Stan Account (milo z), Monday, 1 March 2021 00:23 (two days ago) link

Some other examples of prominent female characters whose origin isn’t defined by trauma – but whom have appeared only marginally, or not yet appeared, in the MCU – include Bobbi Morse, Jennifer Walters, and Kate Bishop*.

(*in my understanding, she was revealed to be an assault survivor sometime after her introduction, but that fact doesn’t play a large role in her character later.)

stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Monday, 1 March 2021 01:00 (two days ago) link

btw in case you thought that brutalization of women as lazy plot device was solely a marvel thing, may i introduce the non-Eltingville Comic Book, Science Fiction, Fantasy, Horror, Role Playing Club members of our audience to the idea of the "Woman in the Refrigerator":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators

G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Monday, 1 March 2021 01:27 (two days ago) link

Bobbi Morse is in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and IIRC they are in pre-production on a She-Hulk series

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Monday, 1 March 2021 04:39 (two days ago) link

that’s why I said “marginally or not yet”

stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Monday, 1 March 2021 06:47 (two days ago) link

I really liked this episode. Scarlet Witch was always a big favorite of mine as a kid, so I liked the dive into her backstory. I thought it was an unexpectedly touching portrayal of grief, at least from the MCU.

But, come on, "that line" was neither the greatest example of screenwriting in modern history, nor was it an example of how "terrible" the writing is "always" in the MCU. Can we maybe have a piece of pop culture that is not immediately shoved to the most ridiculous ends of hyperbole? Both positions, which were all over Twitter this weekend, are embarrassing.

soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 1 March 2021 15:09 (two days ago) link

agreed. it was a nice line but unfortunately completely contradicts the comforting thing that Vision says immediately prior, something like 'it can't ALL be sadness.' well, if grief is love persevering, and it can't all be sadness, i guess love doesn't really last! SORT IT OUT, VISION

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 1 March 2021 15:12 (two days ago) link

I mean... it doesn't work that way, at least not in my experience

The underlying point and what resonated so hard with people is that grief is a painful manifestation of love, and it's helpful to get through that pain to remember that it is a manifestation of love. The fact that that pain fades doesn't directly mean that the love does; it means that over time, the love become less immediately painful. The two statements are absolutely in support of each other, not in contradiction.

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Monday, 1 March 2021 15:22 (two days ago) link

ty for expressing that DJP. i was trying to figure out a good way to say it, but you nailed it

Nhex, Monday, 1 March 2021 15:24 (two days ago) link

haha DJP no i agree, i was just being needlessly argumentative by taking a cartoonishly literal interpretation of this show's dialogue, per tradition

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 1 March 2021 15:30 (two days ago) link

lol well-played

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Monday, 1 March 2021 15:30 (two days ago) link

What is ILX if not literalness persevering?

Ned Raggett, Monday, 1 March 2021 15:41 (two days ago) link

pic.twitter.com/IbzjnqKrsH

— Gabe Delahaye (@gabedelahaye) February 28, 2021

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Monday, 1 March 2021 16:18 (two days ago) link

Okay lmao

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Monday, 1 March 2021 16:19 (two days ago) link

i've seen a million of those and that's the only good one, well done

Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 1 March 2021 16:21 (two days ago) link

I saw that one, but idgi, guessing because I'm not familiar with the Vanessa Bayer source material.

soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 1 March 2021 16:24 (two days ago) link

Jon, it’s this skit from Tim Robinson’s I Think You Should Leave:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xS9Y_mjTjc

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Monday, 1 March 2021 16:26 (two days ago) link

Thanks! Haha, should have assumed it came from that show, seems to be the breeding ground for 85% of memes on twitter right now. I haven't watched it yet, one of those shows where I feel like I missed the moment and it can never possibly live up to the hype.

soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 1 March 2021 16:27 (two days ago) link

I would ignore the hype tbh, it’s just funny

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Monday, 1 March 2021 16:29 (two days ago) link

Also with a lot of good visual candy, as evidenced by its reuse in memes

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Monday, 1 March 2021 16:29 (two days ago) link

On a separate point - and one that likely deserves an essay if one hasn't already been written - given that Kirby/Lee were doing Douglas Sirk-style hypermelodrama romance comics long before they repurposed much of that angst into the Avengers and X-Men should indicate just how baked-in to the formula this glurge is. People have been bitching about too much of it being in the books for over sixty years, why should now be any different?

sic, i feel like you might be able to point to an essay on this topic?

G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Monday, 1 March 2021 17:57 (two days ago) link

I can't even tell where the quote is from

the second result was this edifying article, though

grab bag cum trash bag (sic), Monday, 1 March 2021 20:21 (two days ago) link

that quote is from my lengthy and de-spoilered post upthread.

G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Monday, 1 March 2021 20:41 (two days ago) link

the hiding tags work! I wonder if they googleproof

grab bag cum trash bag (sic), Monday, 1 March 2021 20:46 (two days ago) link

You don’t have time to watch one damn show on Disney plus and suddenly you have no idea what anyone is ever arguing about on Twitter anymore.

— Dewayne Perkins (@DewaynePerkins) February 28, 2021

stuck in the version layer (morrisp), Monday, 1 March 2021 21:08 (two days ago) link

that vanessa beyer skit on that show was easily the funniest thing on the show and also one of the funniest things I've seen in the past 25 years

akm, Monday, 1 March 2021 21:14 (two days ago) link

it's my favorite part of the show and also a pavlovian trigger for me to post the aunty donna ellen sketch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5FGOaz__W0

G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Monday, 1 March 2021 21:27 (two days ago) link

that vanessa beyer skit on that show was easily the funniest thing on the show and also one of the funniest things I've seen in the past 25 years

I sincerely feel the book LEAN IN should be about Vanessa Bayer's performance in that sketch and not some Facebook shit

Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 1 March 2021 22:08 (two days ago) link


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