POLL: Proposed FP Threshold Changes

Third option for me

51 FPs = 30 day ban
71 FPs = instant mod powers

good luck everybody

Voted option 3; 90 days is too long in these indoor times and I’m not sure it deserves that much of a step up in terms of duration. You could easily accumulate 20 during a “heated discussion” at the beginning of the 6 months and then pick up the remainder in little dribs and drabs without ever crossing the line in such a way again.

option 5: permaban everyone who casts a vote in this poll (including me)

We currently are at a 50 FP threshold and hardly anyone ever hits it; I don't think adding a 20 FP threshold into the current system would materially change that.

Voting 'no change' until there is such a facility that enables posters to find out their FP number (and what they have been FP'd for) without having to go through trial by clusterfuck.

https://i.redd.it/b1qyge9txwn01.jpg

Agree with the need for changes. Think 90 days is probably way too long for the 50 fp threshold.

voted for option 4.

Option 4

license to kill mode: 1 fp = permaban

xp But...two weeks off! Wouldn't that be lovely?

Thresholds should be 21 and 51, respectively.

20 and 40 imo

I say we try option #4 and see where it takes us.

No breaks I'd be stalking the boards, taking notes and reviving multiple threads on my return with 'told you so' level posting on my return 😎

you are a formidable opponent for sure

leave that goal any more open why don't you lj

i don't have super strong opinions on this, but 90 days seems too long for a banning for getting 51'd. 30 days is enough to get the message across.

for the 20 FP in 30 days, i prefer 7 days to 14 days. really, i think even 3 days would be better, but 7 is fine.

in other words, i voted for option 4

No breaks I'd be stalking the boards, taking notes and reviving multiple threads on my return with 'told you so' level posting on my return 😎

wassup gabbneb

I agree with Branwell that users should be able to see which posts they have been FP'd for, although not who has issued them obvs. If I recall correctly, the argument against this in the past was that knowing which post of yours has been flagged might inadvertently disclose the person who flagged it. But thinking back to my modding days of yesteryear, I'm pressed to think of an instance where this would have been true. Would welcome counter-opinions, of course.

I agree with Branwell that users should be able to see which posts they have been FP'd for, although not who has issued them obvs. If I recall correctly, the argument against this in the past was that knowing which post of yours has been flagged might inadvertently disclose the person who flagged it. But thinking back to my modding days of yesteryear, I'm pressed to think of an instance where this would have been true. Would welcome counter-opinions, of course.

― peace, man, Thursday, September 3, 2020 5:58 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'd think in 95% of the cases it'll be crystal clear why a poster is banned. Plus, it's already possible to just asked for your number of fp's. Don't think having mods to file a whole 'u were banned and here's why' report is a good use of their valuable time.

I'm going with option 3, but don't have very strong feelings about this (anymore).

Agree. Generally opposed to anything that involves more moderator input - I usually prefer less interference rather than more and the whole reason for this conversation is that user feedback wasn’t doing it.

I dunno, maybe it's just me but it seems like if I suddenly found myself banned for passing any FP threshold, I'd have a pretty good guess as to what I'd done to cause that. Like FPs are not the only means by which folks express their displeasure around these parts.

Exactly, talk about it will spread across the borads like wildfire, 't was ever thus.

license to kill mode: 1 fp = permaban

I'd really prefer to retain the existing levels but have two different FP flavours, where original = please moderate your behaviour, and new double strength = just fuck off now and never come back

original = please moderate your behaviour, and new double strength = just fuck off now and never come back

https://www.insidehighered.com/sites/default/server_files/media/Stan.jpg

wassup gabbneb

― shout-out to his family (DJP), Thursday, 3 September 2020 bookmarkflaglink

Will moderate my behaviour now

license to kill mode: 1 fp = permaban

loving this trend of introducing permadeath to games

Alternative solution: grant everyone mod privileges.

you are restricted to 50 words a day, but you can bank them if you like

write-in for every time you post = 1 fp. 20 posts in 30 days = 14 day ban; 50 posts in 6 months = 30 day ban

xp unfair persecution of Fizzles

Alternative solution: grant everyone mod privileges.

― pomenitul, Thursday, 3 September 2020 bookmarkflaglink

Editing lj's politics posting so he sounds like a Socialist.

I'd think in 95% of the cases it'll be crystal clear why a poster is banned. Plus, it's already possible to just asked for your number of fp's. Don't think having mods to file a whole 'u were banned and here's why' report is a good use of their valuable time.

I'm going with option 3, but don't have very strong feelings about this (anymore).

― Monte Scampino (Le Bateau Ivre), Thursday, September 3, 2020 12:01 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I wasn't suggesting that mods contact every user each time their FP'd. But maybe it could be that there's a FP dashboard on your Preferences page or something. This obviously isn't the issue at hand. And of course setting up such a dashboard would mean a lot more work for stet. But I just wanted to chime in and say that I didn't think Branwell's idea was a bad one.

they're

I like the idea of an FP scoreboard dashboard

Then the gamification of ILX will be complete.

Aye, can we not

Sounds like an awful idea. Old Lunch otm.

In the last round of recent bannings, Calzino literally just said that he had no idea what he was banned for?

I mean, you can just go on insisting that people should ~just know~ by magic, or ESP, or whatever until you’re blue in the face - or you can actually listen to the people the board are trying to moderate, about what is effective, and what isn’t.

I mean that was a unilateral mod action not an fp thing, and there was an explanation in the admin log as there always is in such cases

maybe put the admin log link at the top of SNA and boards pages - not everyone knows what or where it is

may be an idea to let people bookmark it too so users (who want to) get notified when it is updated

yeah I have been posting here on and off for almost 20 years and idk where the admin log is lol

Amateurs

I mean, you can just go on insisting that people should ~just know~ by magic, or ESP, or whatever until you’re blue in the face

true -- also, some posters are very prolific and will accrue FPs for a variety of reasons. for example, silby was blazing their way through numerous threads on different topics -- politics, economics, religion, board lawyering -- I was actually surprised they had accrued 40 FPs until I did a search-by-poster and saw how many threads they were posting on ... like, silbs was interacting with a very large number of posters overall, whereas someone who is "more niche" is less likely to garner that many because their interactions are more limited.

best was the bold tom D saying he had no idea wtf the admin log was on the 'let's discuss the admin log' thread

I had no problem believing that somehow

lol

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

lol

Time for a rerun.

split the difference, 10.5 day ban

This is actually my fault, I think (can mods check?) I clicked to view the results and accidentally whacked vote on option 5 (no change), instead of option 4, as I mentioned upthread.

"Btw, Fred B chose not to come back after his ban. You know that, right Dan?"

I know that. I really didn't mean to offend, I just don't agree with banishing people who are posting in good faith, even temporarily

Don’t recall much of that ‘good faith’ when he was trolling about rape, but hey, it wasn’t you he bothered so it didn’t matter.

sorry, I didn't see that

I think Shakey and Fred were both posting in good faith - whether that makes it better or worse?

(I voted no change, because I think there's a new tendency to accuse people of trolling and acting in bad faith here when all that really means "I don't like what you have to say.")

as opposed to the old tendency of ....?

I don't remember people calling gabbneb a troll, it was just accepted that he had bad beliefs. The problem with 'troll' is that it's used as a bludgeon to try to get people to gang up on the person whose beliefs you don't like.

in the past people just ganged up on the person whose beliefs they didn't like -- it didn't matter whether they were arguing in good faith or trolling ...

I think it's harder to build that gang up when you don't have a mod or established figure calling someone a troll.

i think ilx has gotten older and nicer and some of those "established figures" are no longer here ...

which is to say, the shift to claiming people you don't like are trolls wasn't effective enough, so now the desire seems to be lowering the barrier to make that ganging up even easier.

sorry for my using that term in the past in regard to posters who are honest, it's more clear to me now

neither of y'all seem to get what is driving this entire conversation, like, at all

mh has had some very good posts, so has Doctor Casino, go read them.

Doctor Casino's very good post is specifically about how it's too hard to ban people.

Which indicates that I do get what is driving this conversation and just disagree with it?

You might actually not be getting it in part because 'ban' in this case is a misnomer. I feel like a lot of the opponents are getting hung up on that misnomer, tbf. Two weeks is not a ban, it's a time out.

i think a more accurate name for it could be ... a temporary ban!

I agree! But some people seem to express a gut-level revulsion to the term and start getting all 'not all ILXors'. Let's call it a fun break.

I think that's questionable semantics. Someone being told they're not welcome (ostensibly by the community) and prohibited from posting is a ban, temporary or not. Hence many of them not coming back.

As I said above, no change was my vote because 51 has required a good chunk of community and has seemed quite capable of banning racists and sexists over the last what 10+ years of SBs/FPs?

ILX has always been cliquish and reducing that 'community' capable of banning someone (along with, as I said above, my belief that using troll and bad faith instead of "I disagree" or "I don't like you" is about rallying people to the cause) is problematic.

i'm ambivalent about it tbh -- having been the recipient of a "fun break" on several occasions -- it felt shitty tbh

"I think that's questionable semantics. Someone being told they're not welcome (ostensibly by the community) and prohibited from posting is a ban, temporary or not. Hence many of them not coming back."

agree with milo, whether it’s temp bans or shunning, people have been driven away, and I don't think it's good for ilx

Dan, the flipside is people feeling unwelcome and being driven away by aggro antagonistic posters ...

People are divided between 7 or 14 days for the 20 FP threshold; 90 day bans are out; keeping the existing system is out.

I think mods are capable of casting the “tiebreaker” between 14 and 7 in our little star chamber.

xps for the millionth time, for every person "driven away" by the community moderation system, there is at least one other person who just quietly stops posting because they don't like being here any more.

you're never going to make everyone happy, and yet the solution you propose is allowing the most divisive posters to continue posting freely, because....they want to?

as long as the ILX Bar Association can continue to lobby for the lightening of sentences and mods will hear grievances in good faith ... do what thou whilst

I am wondering what is the reason people quietly stop posting here. I really don't think it is because of divisive posters

It’s 100% because they get tired of putting up with assholes

I know a lot of people who’ve quit and I’ve also personally quit

do people still like this prick enough for this to work, I was hoping he was generally agreed to be over

00s liberal comedy esp UK just an absolute hellzone of smug sneery pseudo subversive crypto conservative back patting wankery. I can’t even watch the stuff I thought was good at the time (office 1, peep show) because the general tenor of that whole comedy/media phenomenon is so nasty & pervasive & stifling

if this guy isn’t quite as blatantly pure reaction & minstrelsy in liberal clothing compared to say little britain he’s close enough to be buried in the same chamber, any additional satire is so tame & loses out to the thrill of laughing at the funny foreigner (/other ‘other’) saying or getting provincials to say these un-PC things. none of these people are us- we appreciate jew jokes on a higher level than those bigots, we know how to put our racism in quotation marks

are we at a place yet as a culture where we can just call Ali G fucking racist (supposed whitemiddleclassness of character is either irrelevant or the point), without being shouted down by the comedy defence league? I’m not sure. but I’m pretty sure we could have been spared Bo! Selecta if it wasn’t for this dickhead’s efforts

― ... (Left), Thursday, September 10, 2020 5:23 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Zzzzzz

― rascal clobber (jim in vancouver), Thursday, September 10, 2020 6:52 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

oh shoot I forgot to include my opinion

my opinion is: what the heck is Bo! Selecta

don't leave us El Tomboto

sorry but shouldn't this be on I Love Boat Propulsion

― life is beauitul (rip van wanko), Wednesday, September 2, 2020 12:38 AM

this was a quite humorous post, at which I lolled

I’ve self-deprecatingly mentioned that a lot of people have left because they’ve achieved success in their careers/marriages/child rearing and don’t need a social outlet to talk about which album by The Cure is most underrated. Shame on them

tbh, there are nearly as many reasons to wander away as there are people who have wandered away. I know a few mentioned they didn’t really care who posters were unless they’d met them irl, and couldn’t really tell people apart. Have a few bad interactions with someone who does notice those things and you go back to tweeting takes on movies/music instead

I enjoy the conversational, linear nature of ilx. deciphering of x-posts aside, it’s a format that’s not well-served in a very thread-heavy or upvoted Q&A web these days

I can't really tell all of you apart and haven't ever met anybody from here in real life... I've only formed rudimentary images of you all in my mind, but that's enough, I love you all

I’m not leaving, Dan, I was referring to a
hiatus in the past.

This is actually my fault, I think (can mods check?) I clicked to view the results and accidentally whacked vote on option 5 (no change), instead of option 4, as I mentioned upthread.

Which of these was which again? It's difficult to check now the results are in.

comrade gyac is another 7 dayer 😍

Sorry, it was option 3, 20 fps = 14 day ban, 50 fps = 30 day ban

14 days has won the aggregate poll anyway tbf

Which of these was which again? It's difficult to check now the results are in.

comrade gyac is an unreliable narrator 😱

xp tbf I didn’t know this, I use Zing so I don’t check polls on there that often

focusing on posters we know by name, and why they've left misses the big picture imo. to me it feels like common sense that if you let rampaging aggression and clusterfuck-fueling go on and on unchecked until MAYbe the person gets a timeout (through an arcane system that is not particularly visible to the casual visitor, and which in practice requires dozens of people to file complaints over months), is going to discourage tons of people from becoming posters we know by name!

i've said this before, but if we were designing ilx from the ground up and thinking "what functional and design choices would i make to make this space feel like a safe haven for civil and fun discussion, and an appealing one to newcomers," i think there's a ton of small things we would do differently. i don't mean giving the site a makeover to look more hip or otherwise lose what's special about it --- i mean stuff like, linking at the top to an faq that spells out what this place is, what kind of behavior isn't tolerated, what "flag post" does... like even at the level of a decent Usenet group FAQ circa 1993 explaining that flamewars are frowned upon etc. or like, when threads are rightfully locked for being awful and offensive, we shd probably note this at the top and in the title so a new visitor doesn't have to get to the bottom to go "oh whew, this IS or has at least BECOME the kind of place where this awfulness isn't wanted" etc...

those are just a couple of examples but i just mean, elsewhere on the internet people are actively trying to create non-toxic spaces where people feel safe, and i appreciate any efforts by the mods to do that work. we're very far from the worst space out there, obviously, but does that mean the work is done? why are the numbers here still so heavily weighted towards cis white dudes age 35 and up, when going on the internet to be nerdy about music and everything has gotten a million times more diverse in the lifetime of this site?

p.s. i recognize that i probably sound like the obnoxious uber-radical dude in every org that derails all meetings by wanting to spend another hour designing the perfect, fool-proof bylaws that will prevent capture by centrists or w/e, but IRL i hate that guy!! i just think we can love ilx and also believe that it doesn't have to be the way it's been.

Doctor C, I went on the same mental odyssey. Public policy is a rabbit hole