have you quit the labour party yet?

voted #1 for them last time but have serious misgivings about how the SD's seem to have sprung up under their noses populated and followed by what wouldve seemed on the face of it to be the next generation of what ought to have been their candidates and people

*blinks*

just cancelled the dd. Didn't bother with the resignation email. They aren't a party of opposition any more and will only get worse once the guileless fuckwit melt of a leader is stabbed in the back.

By the time my trade union processes the necessary paperwork for my subs to be switched to the non-affiliated political fund, the world as we currently understand it won't exist anyway

Did so earlier this week, both dd and through contact form.

does anyone have any hope

I only joined in December.

I'm thinking about it.

I’ve left the party before, when Miliband was tacking to the right, but am not inclined to do it again yet.

I don’t rate Starmer as a leader but I recognise that the shadow cabinet he has put together is an upgrade on the pre-Corbyn one. It’s also the best we are going to get, either within the Labour Party, or electoral politics in general, any time soon. It’s too early to judge how the policy platform will shake out and whether they’ll cross any of my red lines (triangulation on immigration, welfare, military adventurism, etc) - at which point I may give up completely.

The left isn’t going to retake the Labour Party for a while. The right is far more likely to make a concerted attempt to scuttle Starmer first. Unless there is a particularly compelling reason not to, I’d rather stay to oppose that.

I also look at people like Corbyn, McDonnell, the old guard members, etc, who stuck it out through Kinnock and Blair in the belief that there may be something of value to save and were briefly proved right. They’ve put up with worse.

I joined by making a contribution and canvassing at the last electoon. Whether I decide to stay or leave is a decision I will make later in the year and will depend on what contribution I can make with others locally. Difficult to be more specific as I was navigating through the thing and then covid hit.

I don't know if reading lots of stuff since Starmer's victory is good for the soul really (I was going to ask for a few links but thought the better of it). Give yourself a break for a few weeks.

hope these days is getting 4 pints of milk. There isn't an opposition any more. I didn't vote for 20+ years previously and can easily switch back to that mode. I was born poor as fuck and am used to living poor as fuck and with very low expectations of UK governments and the so called opposition. Fuck 'em all! I've got decades of accumulated hatred and class resentments towards wankers like Starmer and would rather die than give him a vote tbh!

I spent most of the 00's working on the poorest social housing of Yorkshire and don't buy any of the crap about the gains of Blairism. I just despise the Labour Party right now.

Hope is not getting 4 pints of milk, we ended up with that this morning. It means we're not getting any on Saturday

Keir Starmer’s reshuffle is impressive - the Marxist nutters are out; moderate left are in. When this crisis is eventually over, and politics is resumed, the Tories are going to find that the 5 years when there was no opposition and no alternative has come to an abrupt end

— George Osborne (@George_Osborne) April 9, 2020

xp
hah!

Good job Osborne, the guy publishing antisemitic cartoons of Starmer’s cabinet yesterday, has no motive for undermining the Labour Party and can be relied on to play with a straight bat or I’d think he’s trolling.

Could look at the way he has treated the even further right Sadiq Khan for evidence of what he thinks of the ‘soft left’.

Re: hope. I think it's pretty much clear that: 1) a lot of stuff is happening and 2) a lot of it is bad (but some is good too)

We should not divorce 1 from 2 (and the item in the bracket) either.

how good that stuff that is happening rn might be depends on how much you believe this will genuinely be a paradigm shift rather than a precursor for more of the same - but worse.

btw if anyone ever falls into food poverty during this lockdown, just remember Mark G doesn't fall into food poverty but he considers that quite a whimsical thing.

wait is this a ukpol thread ffs i wasnt told

Nah, just trying to keep my own spirits up.

soz if I was harsh there Mark!

xp
Get back to your failed melt thread that was like the worst episode of QI ya cunt!

Basically, it was a metaphor for how things seem to get better before they start to get worse.

Nothing to do with the subject in hand, I agree. I'm off to bed anyway, gnight.

goodnight mark, sorry for being a bit shitty. i'm beyond fresh rn!

Jealous of your system where a party is a thing you can “join” in a meaningful sense

Here silby on a semi related note we were discussing you on the main thread and you should post there more in our opinion

I’ll see what I can do. I already disappointed lots of folks by forgetting to become a Crystal Palace supporter, as a bit.

Pretty sure imago would not be disappointed by you forgetting to become a Crystal Palace supporter.

"Jealous of your system where a party is a thing you can “join” in a meaningful sense"

it's no good when most of the members are either voting for an insipid establishment melt or the majority that didn't vote because their own "real opposition" media clown wasn't even close to being up to the job. i really miss Corbyn and McD :(

But at least you can quit it now! What a relief.

when posters badmouth them on here I feel like knifing them for real tbh!

re osborne, this bizarre inversion where opposition means no opposition is totally doing my head in, as is the fact that some non tories seem to genuinely believe this

but i never joined the party anyway so w/e

try telling some of these "non tories" that they aren't tories. You'd need medieval torture tools to make them admit it and they've got a "plurality of voices" on their side !

I wonder if to some extent this idea of 'real opposition' depends on your subconscious conception of what opposition is, whether its something external and existential, a replacement - or whether its more managerial. Almost like the opposition as kind of a wing of the government rather than a replacement for it.

We see this sort of stuff when incoming Labour MPs are asked if they're going to be friendly with Conservatives or not (which is a trick question of course). Was it Pidcock that said she couldn't be? But this then seen as not playing the game, not being respectful to Parliament itself. As somehow ooposed to the concept of parliament and democracy itself

that makes a lot of sense actually

it's supposed to be her majesty's most loyal opposition after all

I think this is part of it but maybe something deeper but its not easy to unpick - and it may be a difficult tightrope for the left in general to walk (oppositional but seen as able to work within whatever power structures are in place). Much of this is presentational rather than substantive, so that path is there.

I even think there's something in this, as I don't really know how much mileage there is in the combative or confrontational approach (QT etc is cringe-worthy with this stuff, and the weird mixture of acquiescence and bluster from the media ineffectual). Or at least it shouldn't be the only or even main instrument. McD maybe the only person that was able to do this. Theoretically it should be easier to play this kind of game of appealing to people who view things through this lens as its really just packaging but its not easy to see who that might be (Ro Khanna in the US seems someone that maybe might have it but don't know in UK)

I think we probably need to distinguish between the people pushing this kind of stuff in a kind of fantasy world of 'opponents shaking hands at the end of the day after a fine battle of wills and wits good show pals" and people subconsciously receiving this narrative as 'now we have someone that takes the job seriously instead of just making cheap points" via the media

Also: how about giving it up for the year and maybe returning to it next year.

Are other people that you know simply quitting and just not engaging in any form of politics? And if they aren't what else are they doing? (I may need some tips lol)

I wonder if to some extent this idea of 'real opposition' depends on your subconscious conception of what opposition is, whether its something external and existential, a replacement - or whether its more managerial. Almost like the opposition as kind of a wing of the government rather than a replacement for it.

We see this sort of stuff when incoming Labour MPs are asked if they're going to be friendly with Conservatives or not (which is a trick question of course). Was it Pidcock that said she couldn't be? But this then seen as not playing the game, not being respectful to Parliament itself. As somehow ooposed to the concept of parliament and democracy itself

I see a lot of ppl fading or quitting who are already busy with jobs and kids. seems like the options are just be casually involved with worthy but isolated small-scale stuff or to attempt to pull everything together yourself. no one ever really worked out what they were doing ofc

my position equates precisely onto SV's; little more to add

the ppl railing against despair, the fragmentation of the movement, or bitterly avoiding electoral politics entirely seem to be doing so out of some sense of moral obligation rather than out of any conviction.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVO9PXiUcAAQHHY?format=jpg&name=large

I've not seen any signs of buyer's remorse from any Kier voters yet. If *this* is what they actually I'm amazed they stuck with Corbyn for so long. But I suppose that is the nature of apolitical happy clappers.

onboard/contained

I think many of them had contaminated 99's from Owen Smith's Mr Melty ice cream van.

Somewhere between wavering and never - I think it's ony prudent to see how things play out but I don't have high hopes.

Even if you had low hopes they pretty much got dashed yesterday! I thought there might be some Kier voters despairing at a shadow cab with Streeting and JP.

messaging w/ ppl and I can tell they're hoping I'm going to offer some rousing morale-boosting sentiments and I'm just holding off on saying "mb see how it's going in 4-10 years??"

I think that timescale might be oppomistic, but these aren't ordinary times.. You never know.

melts

I didn't vote (because I don't vote in polls almost never) but this is really good.

When a left-wing friend stood for election in my union, he had massive support. His opponent had none. On the day of the election, the right-wing branch said there’s an allegation of corruption against him. No details were given, but “we must suspend the election for a month”.

— Tony Collins (@_tony_c_) April 14, 2020

can't remember if i voted in this or not but -- im not going anywhere yet, although the sub fees would be handy for a sandwich. But I'll wait til the NEC vote at least, and/or Suck Here goes full mask off.

I suppose Magid Magid could always Green leader

with no conference this year is there anything to even do as members

Forward Momentum Vs Renewal Momentum poll

fwd ftw

yeah it's a weird contest but it's no contest

Our fantastic new Shadow Cabinet are also going to be running a series of online policy discussions

lol I'm still getting emails in my junk folder from Sir K despite cancelling the dd months ago. Maybe you shouldn't have put Reeves in there if "fantastic" was your goal, arsehole! I agree with what reeves said in 2015 now tbf, Labour isn't the party for the likes of me at all anymore... no problemo.. bye !

This person has criticised forward momentum here a bit.

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2020/05/where-momentum-went-wrong

I really like this piece.

Yeah I saw that. I think it's pretty astute on how momentum fitted into the UK left over the last decade, the changes and continuity, and some of the structural problems given the nature of the org. I think he tends towards a narrow prescriptive - 'rigorous'! - workerism that has no chance of building an effective coalition though.

I am not sure what could build an effective coalition but I liked most of his five points. Good luck to him.

I'm just thinking that the vagueness/openness of Momentum was a big part of what made it unique and large, the narrower it gets, the more it becomes like just another pre-2015 leftist org. the fourth and fifth points seem like vague dreams rather than plans (if there's one thing I've learned about 'the masses' it's that they don't exist), but the third seems clearly right to me. I think there's a balance between decentralization on one hand and having some high profile figure heads to keep some good energy going at a national level, but building better-organised central bodies for educating ppl/dealing with trade unions etc. seems unappealing to me as a main focus, even if it might be necessary. the best momentum things imo were just creating ways for people to network and get involved as they saw fit.

The 4th is a bit of a non-starter. I read the 5th as developing responses to how the right utilise the at times positives that people can throw at things, such as 'flexible working' and the like.

the biggest problem with all of this is still the assumption that working with Labour is still necessary or desirable (or that it ever was tbh)

if the legacy of corbynism becomes people who once knew better banging their heads against the wall of this miserable party for the rest of their lives then what a disaster

why are even the "radical" parts of the UK Left so damn conservative

xxp if that means reworking/redefining flexible working into something un-shit rather than telling ppl they are wrong for wanting it then I am onboard. reading 'mass engagement in community organisation' just makes my eyes glaze over though at this point.

David Evans

fuck this clown car party

At this point I don't give a shit about Labour getting into power any more, fucking Starmer regime is going to be even closer to Blairism than Milliband was. Starmer has made me despise them more than the Tories tbh

some of the worst Tories in this country are basically 80% of this cunt's shadow cabinet

New: David Evans just hosted a Zoom all for staff alongside Starmer and Rayner. He said:

- Labour must get back to winning elections
- wants to professionalise HQ
- accepts there's a diversity issue and wants to make it a key indicator of his performance

there is an incredibly intelligent idea, try and win an election rather than fucking sabotage and undermine an election campaign and the leader at every opportunity ... fucking tool

Don't know who Evans is. Who is he? What does he know? Does he know things? We may never know.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/1A05/production/_112516660_davidevans.jpg

he's got a winning mentality and he evolves ..he doesn't revolve... tbh all I can add is he is a melt and looks like a complete twat!

I'm sure his hair has sealed the deal with Starmer.

"must get back to winning elections" has always meant "...by becoming conservative party lite" and no difference now.

Now is not the time to point fingers about the annexation of Naboo. I propose that we work with our learned friends from the Trade Federation on a comprehensive inquiry into these allegations pic.twitter.com/xWvoAvbobh

— Professor Piss Shitty (@DrFuck_) May 27, 2020

should i see professor piss shitty's other tweets (as found at the @DrFuck account)

he's one of my few non-bot followers on twitter so obv he's a top class poster!

i don't understand Star Wars jokes tbh

I disenfranchised myself last week. Mainly for pecuniary reasons, but I don't think my vote will count for much anymore. They are going to sew this up tight. Besides which, as I replied to the admin bod who emailed me, Starmer seems to have access to the wallets of some very well-off ppl so I think my pitiful pounds are needed by me more than you, currently. Commit to raise the ""living wage"" though and I might be able to afford to come back.

xp how about this

I like to retweet my Ian Nairn joke every now and then for the 7 people who get it. pic.twitter.com/oE1QgoeCOK

— Richard Littler (@richard_littler) May 25, 2020

lol ok i get that one

lol

I don't really get Star Wars jokes with less than obvious geek references but am just an easy mark for any Starmer shop if it makes him look like a twat. And erm some crap jokes have a potency to them yo know ... no not really a hill to die on!

no i know what you mean calz, even without understanding the references to the detailed politics of George Lucas's chef d'oeuvre i do get the general "Starmzy is a pusillanimous melt cunt" bit

the biggest problem with all of this is still the assumption that working with Labour is still necessary or desirable (or that it ever was tbh)

Interested in whether you think parliamentary politics in general are a dead end for the left or whether you think it is the rotteness of the labour party specifically.

As an outsider before moving to the UK I'd only ever voted for minority parties - centre left equivalents of labour in Portugal and Germany always being some shade of neoliberal, getting into a coalition and effecting some change that way seemed the only way for the left to influence things at all from a parliamentary pov. Corbyn was very energizing for people outside the UK as well because of the possibility of a real leftist agenda allied to a party with an actual large, consolidated base.

also somewhat bemused that the main protest I could make now aside from leaving the party - not voting - would only mean one vote less for Diane Abbott, so if it were to count at all (aware it wouldn't) it'd be sending very much the wrong message

yeah but imagine if your abstinence meant one less vote for Barry Sheerman or Streeting and bearing in mind most of the PLP are complete arseholes!

I'm not going to support a diseased party that needs to die and keeping this rotten game going.

my man Pennycook is one of the good seemingly-ok ones, gonna keep the faith for now i think. is one of the momentums wanting to stay in labour and the other wanting to splinter off?

I think the left should put on a unified front saying they will only vote for a labour party committed to bringing in PR so that coherent & representative parties are possible and then you can have a formalised alliance between different elements of the left as opposed to the current factional shitshow, otherwise yes it's pointless

bingo

have been delving into that excellent Pimlett book on Harold ov Hudds recently. Didn't know when he was part of a trade envoy in in postwar Soviet Union that very sneaky snake in the grass Mikoyan tried to get him pissed on vodka and he ended up drinking him under the table, probably absolute bollox like, but it makes a good story.

Entertaining book that - George Brown OMG!

not got to much of him yet, but I recall someone mentioning he can tell a good story or two

the man the phrase "tired and emotional" was invented for

i believe to explain why he was spotted literally face down in the gutter

I've just got where he is a rising star under the tutelage of Cripps who he worships a bit, and who is a very interesting commie from back in the day who much preferred eating raw vegetables much more than getting shitfaced and falling asleep in the gutter!

Two more different characters than George Brown and Stafford Cripps it would be difficult to find.

even as a kid i knew it was silly to accept a peerage then call yrself "lord george-brown"