PMs change and lol we're all gonna die (but brexit will never end)

EXTREME characters having screaming matches

The problem begins when mildly dissenting opinions are painted in such terms. The amount of caveats I include (aptly parodied by deems in his latest spin-off thread) to remind everyone that I am not concern-trolling and not coming at this from a Lib Dem perspective or whatever should in theory suffice, but alas…

And if you think certain posters of an infinitesimally (this needs to be emphasized, as there is in fact no significant source of disagreement among us) different political persuasion don't avoid this thread or reduce their contributions to a minimum because they're tired of getting gratuitously piled upon, that's awfully optimistic of you.

p.s.: btw, I'd be happy to see Corbyn win a GE.

xp I completely agree with the last full paragraph though!

So do I and so do we all, I assume.

I literally don't mind at all there being a place to have a discussion about politics that takes for granted a social ideal that puts the welfare of most people ahead of the wealth hoarding ability of a tiny elite of the super-rich.

Agreed, but conflating this with support of Jeremy Corbyn isn't helpful.

― Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 08:42 (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

Okay, but name me another party that's pushing this line?

Which posters is this thread missing out on by virtue of our samethink?

It's not my place to name them.

fred, morbs, cutty, ddb, hstencil, connor smedley, doomie, jon williams, prom dressantino

"mildly dissenting opinions"

Is that how you call your day long tantrum? Okay then.

I mean if we’re missing out on people with legitimate concerns, that’s obviously a tragedy and Their Voices Must Be Heard.

More seriously...it’s a politics thread during a particularly fraught time. Politics is full of “robust debate” and as it should be, it’s literally life and death for some people. An MP was murdered in the street by a fascist and literally none of the anti-left discourse has dimmed. I would ask why people shouldn’t be angry or hold strong opinions?

That's fine, gyac. But then it's fair to expect some amount of pushback from the EU crowd as well, no?

Btw comrade alphabet, I daresay you should practice самокритика more often.

pom as Euler said, its just impossible to know what you actually WANT. You'd be happy to vote for corbyn bc you want a progressive shift in public policy but you are critical of certain decisions made by the labour party leadership in general and corbyn in particular during a period that you surely recognise has been fairly trying. I mean I think that's pretty much the consensus around here, in which case welcome to the groupthink. That's what's so infuriating about your position, you seem to want this to manifest as a general distaste of corbyn but if other people do not share your distaste well.... I also fail to see why it would be productive to share this distaste, like what would it enable? As major opposition to austerity goes, labour are the best bet. Same with a more ethical approach to international policy. The labour shadow cabinet have not been in government so have not had to opportunity to do anything as egregious as, say, taking unilateral military action against the large civilian population of another country and for that reason I find it hard to be as critical of them as I might be of New Labour. Any criticism I have is not going to be enough to make me go, what? Lib Dem?

I know you will interpret this as a policing of your dissent, but nobody would jump on you if you said "I think something different." The problem with the dissent you're offering is that you seem to be saying, "I find it somewhat distasteful that you all share a certain set of views." And that is how you have phrased your criticism. not at the views that people have espoused, but the fact that there is not enough variation in those views here. For one thing, shared views and ideals are a necessary pretext to the possibility of any kind of political action so I don't see consistency as itself a bad thing. And on top of that, the views here strike me as VERY particular. The consensus position here hardly lines up with any specific tangents that I know of in other venues.

xp also, most of the people addressing you *ARE* EU immigrants

Both the Tories and Labour judge that Brexit puts an end to EU freedom of movement. The "EU crowd", to use pomenitul's expression, then asks why Labour does not stand against Brexit. Does Labour want an end to EU freedom of movement in the UK? Do posters here want an end to EU freedom of movement in the UK?

it's about attitudes to migration in general, not just from the EU.

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, August 19, 2019 7:17 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I don't understand this. Before Brexit, migration to/from the EU was legal and simple. Is the thought that migration to/from elsewhere is better than EU migration? And/or that ending EU freedom of movement would improve migration to/from outside the EU?

always worth remembering this thread is not very british. I think there might be more irish posters than english posters

…who aren't especially pro-EU.

My argument, which I formulated repeatedly even though you claim not know to what I 'want', is that Corbyn is too ambiguous a Remainer for me to be fully on board with his Brexit policies, which doesn't mean that I wouldn't vote for him if I could.

We're almost at the point of peak sterility here.

careful, remember lord kelvin in 1897

the party’s* brexit policy. democratically agreed at conference as a compromise between the membership, unions and PLP and calibrated to not explode the 2017 coalition

anyone watch the mountbatten documentary ?

every family down our way had the zapruder tape tbh

…who aren't especially pro-EU.

The sheer, unadulterated hatred for FBPE or whatever is quite telling in that regard.

Like, yeah these people mostly suck and are utterly hypocritical, even as regards Remain, but the loathing heaped upon them by some here is just insane.

we don’t hate FBPE because they’re pro EU we hate them because they are all nuggets who are going to get us all killed

xp also, most of the people addressing you *ARE* EU immigrants

that reminds me

I dearly wish a reactivated IRA would sucessfully blow up that scumbag Johnson and his evil cabinet.
At least their useless, morally-empty lives would have served a purpose.

— MarcHayo #FBPE (@markhayo) August 20, 2019

xp to Euler

Many people voted for Brexit to end "immigration" in general, and in particular non-EU immigration (despite the fact that this has nothing to do EU membership the vote for brexit was for, at least some voters, a vote against non-white people moreso than a vote against middle-class europeans). The public was primed for this by Theresa May's extreme anti-immigrant policies while Home Secretary and the coalition and labour shadow cabinet-s bipartisan chest puffing hardmanning on this issue. This is part of the tangled mess that gave us brexit in the first place and its impossible to parse it meaningfully through logic. Rather, it is analogous to voting for Trump's tax breaks for the the superwealthy as a way of sticking it to the Washington/Wall St elites. The representational and practical aspects of policy is elided into something that is for the most part entirely contradictory.

Within this Labour have tried to be rather Janus-faced. Sticking to a line "freedom of movement ends when we leave the EU" that is intentionally slippery. "Freedom of movement" (an offical EU designated policy) ends (as the EU is no longer the officiating party) "when we leave the EU" (the terms of which could vary greatly). The line as espoused by Labour is, I think, intended to elude a betrayal narrative that the right-wing dominated press is intent on levelling at labour. It does not mean that some other equivalent set of freedoms (dictated by UK governement and therefore preserving UK sovereignty) could not be legislated by Labour. Of course this will be more precarious as not backed up by the EU.

In answer to your question about whether or not other migration from outside the EU was seen as MORE desirable. I think the images of the borders of Europe have made many people on the left more conscious of the limits of freedom of movement and the terrible violence that preserves its integrity at Europe's periphery, something likely to get ever worse with climate change. Labour's line plays to these people as well as avoiding this confrontation with the right-wing media at this point when it has become such a cheerleader for the current nativism of Tories.

i dont think its fair to criticize the thread (or to characterize the criticism of the thread) (are those z's both right? fuckit) as 'samethink'

i think that the x number of posters that are allowed to have tantrums - if thats what pom did (it isnt tbh) - in the thread and the eh spiteful reaction to any new cat dropped into the kitchen among this uneasy alliance is the issue x

xxp I saw an excellent thread contrasting he remain campaign and the repeal campaign that I now can’t find and it made the points about consensus building and winning over waverers and -shockingly - reached the same conclusion about a new referendum here. It’s entirely true and they’ll throw us under the bus.

I think it's worth remembering that pom's entrance into the thread yesterday consisted of an unfunny joke, according to him, about (((liberal democrats))) followed by a comment, directed at the entire thread I assume, about 'you tankies'. Not terribly clever or constructive.

But carry on with your Captain Save-a-Pom routine, deems, it's entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6QhAZckY8w

It was indeed unfunny, that much is certainly true.

some platitudinous, hackneyed blathering from Peter Reid (hey at least he's not Graham Souness with the evil glint in his eye for NDB!) on People's Vote in the indie today. But some truth in there that tin-eared Remain campaigners don't ever seem to learn about how condescending and dishonest they are at delivering their message. And perhaps reminding Leave voters of some of the interests of the greedy corrupt sociopaths they are aligning themselves with could be more productive than hectoring them about the annual GDP of London's FS sector or whatever. Perhaps the problem is corrupt greedy sociopaths from both sides of the EU ref campaigns don't like to attack each other too directly maybe, and keep it to the pantomime stuff for mass consumption.

My argument, which I formulated repeatedly even though you claim not know to what I 'want', is that Corbyn is too ambiguous a Remainer for me to be fully on board with his Brexit policies, which doesn't mean that I wouldn't vote for him if I could.

We're almost at the point of peak sterility here.

― pomenitul, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 09:13 (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Again. Except for the caveat that Labour's ambiguity on Brexit is in many ways a media construct (both more complex than a single soundbyte and with an in-built model of change) this is pretty much EXACTLY THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE HERE. Pro Labour generally but with plenty of caveats. Exactly the position that made another poster see this thread as only united through various critiques.

Practicing самокритика there Pom, cute.

But carry on with your Captain Save-a-Pom routine, deems, it's entertaining.

― Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 09:30 (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

^ gets it!

https://admitonefilmaddict.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/gladiator-e1470584300765.jpg?w=672&h=372&crop=1

thanks plaxico for your thoughtful post. I see that Labour's policy on EU freedom of movement reflects discord amongst their base of support. Is there such discord on this thread?

When I hear the term “echo chamber” or “ideological diversity” etc. that’s when I etc etc

All meaningful discussions happen in closed groups, people who have agreed to the terms etc. It’s not as if people here aren’t exposed to right wing arguments.

id imagine that we're not talking about stromfornt here tbf

I don't think it's controversial to suggest that echo chambers reinforce groupthink and act as a blocker of sorts to understanding the wider world? Yes even in those scenarios you hear the views of people whose representatives shout the the loudest, but that still excludes a lot of groups.

I know, but I don't get the sense that for anybody here this place accounts for the majority of discussion they have about this, and the breadth of stuff linked suggests that people have a lot of other sources. I find it a really good repository of stuff I might not otherwise read as I tend to get a lot of my news from abandoned copies of the FT I find in blackfriars station in the morning.

Yeah I felt that went without saying...? Pretty hard to live in the UK and dodge right wing politics or viewpoints.

Yeah, whatever is wrong with xyzzzz, gyac, et al, I don't think it can be blamed on ilx.

Great contribution, manages to be ignorant (and ableist?)

ahh ..it's always nice to smell that first plop of ideological diversity of the day!

I like ilxor UK politics threads as a place to park information about news, to have a discussion that’s unlikely to be interrupted by cranks of the Chris Williamson ilk, derailed or derided by Centrist ‘90s Music Press Guys (and where we can complain about them), or people with other flavours of Corbyn Derangement Syndrome.

This is a rare corner of the interwebs where people are mostly intelligent and accommodating of others. It’s also a good spot to commiserate with others touched by austerity/Tory cruelty and having an outlet to clown
on the latest Jess Phillips/Stephen Kinnock/Change UK bullshit also a bonus.

Fred only visiting in between bans tbf.

the only way i can see out of this mess is for a Labour govt to massively reset the social compact (as Corbyn alluded to yesterday). if the programme is deep and far-reaching enough i.e. free education, renationalise utilities, war footing for climate change and social housing, tear up PFI and backdoor privatisation in the NHS, then frankly I'm not sure it makes a huge difference to voters whether we leave or remain. the ensuing arguments would come close to obliterating the memory of Brexit imo!