I honestly don’t know where else to talk to about this.
So a longtime IRL friend (we’ve been friends since 7th grade) of mine who I still hang out with fairly frequentlyhas enmeshed himself in the online circle of aggrieved man-children surrounding “comicsgate” and the Right-ish shithead politics involved with it. He himself recently finished a graphic novel and is trying to raise money to get it independently published, which I suspect was how he got sucked into this.
Recently I noticed a rightward slant to a lot of his social media posts but it wasn’t until today when I took a closer look and saw that he’s been hobnobbing with a lot of alt-right adjacent type folks and actively arguing with “SJWs”. He’s always been an opinionated, stubborn bastard (as am I) but his opinions were usually relegated to things like comics and movies. Now he’s apparently following dudes like Stephen Crowder and tweeting recommendations for books by Ben Shapiro. BEN MOTHERFUCKING SHAPIRO. Ugh.
Maybe I’m a shitty friend but that’s kinda beyond the pale, no? I can’t expect everyone in my life to share my politics but some kind of baseline “don’t be a right-wing piece of shit” rule still applies, right?
It’s just heartbreaking because he’s not a jerk at all IRL. He’s always been a good friend and has helped me out and had my back numerous times. But in his online life he’s kinda turning into a real “why won’t you let me debate you, coward” sort of douche.
So far this hasn’t come up because these days we don’t really interact online much (and in fact it was only today I realized how far down the rabbit hole he’d gone). We get together to do pub trivia once a week and that’s usually our hang out time.
He’s aware of my political leanings but then again I’m not sure he understands why his newfound preoccupation with owning “SJWs” online would be alarming to me. I feel debating him would be fruitless. I’m too thin-skinned anyway. I dunno. This is such a bummer to me.
― latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 00:16 (two years ago) link
I think lightly sticking to the “that’s not really my experience, why do you say that?” soft peddling of dissent works if you’re trying to remain friends. Being involved in his non-political social life helps, because sometimes this shit is contrarian internet junk where dudes lack a really social outlet and decide the best way to do so is to get really angry and blow off steam, which is where these outrage merchants really dig in
If you do feel the need to call out, be cautious and stick to issues and not widespread anti-whatever stances. As much as those types like to complain about identity politics, they tend to stick all of their issues together and anyone challenging one piece is an affront to their adopted conservative identity.
― mh, Monday, 14 May 2018 00:25 (two years ago) link
Being involved in his non-political social life helps, because sometimes this shit is contrarian internet junk where dudes lack a really social outlet and decide the best way to do so is to get really angry and blow off steam, which is where these outrage merchants really dig in
Yeah he’s always been the type to adopt an opinion and be extremely, rigidly adamant about it and then later adopt a completely different opinion and act as if he’d always thought that way. Being his friend for almost 25 years I’m pretty used to that but this time his gripes and resentments are being reinforced by a whole community of fellow agry nerds with which he networks. It’s kind of terrifying, to be honest.
The only remotely “comforting” aspect of this whole business is that most of my friend’s bullshit is currently confined to the world of comics. Which is probably why I haven’t noticed it until now.
― latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 02:56 (two years ago) link
I suppose, to add a minor point to what mh has said, stick to the talking about the ideas/behaviours rather than making it personal ("that idea doesn't ring true to me" rather than "you're wrong and bad, and here's why")? Possibly implicit too, but I often find that approach works better than personalising things too much.
― Thomas NAGL (Neil S), Monday, 14 May 2018 06:35 (two years ago) link
I have this, though its a relative (in their 30s). Its been gradually increasing over the last few years, jordan peterson, ben shapiro, there are 37 genres now , snowflakes, virtue signalling, brexit, cultural marxism, jacob rees mogg, socialists. The own understanding or nuance isn't there, the straight repetition of right wing talking points.
What to do? the conclusion Ive come to, is...nothing. You have to look at yourself here, what is this debating you're imagining is going to happen. A debate is when two people accept the premise or framework of such. If you think you're going to go in their house and change their mind, it doesnt work like that. Any 'debate' should be initiated by them, not you, and only partake if they are asking you something, not if they are telling you something and putting a question mark on the end. Otherwise, you're being used by someone honing their opinion, you're fulfilling a role. The radicalized person never asks open questions.
But also you have to be honest with yourself - any kind of "yes, but dont you think that"....this is no good, for anyone!
I think when this happens you're dealing with something more existential than a debate really covers. 'Are you one of us, or not, anything else is just hot air'. I was once asked in email, by my relative, about my thoughts on the situation with Russia. I have a fairly detailed answer trying to cover as many bases as possible. Did it make any difference to anything? Ive no idea because there it was never mentioned again, it wasnt what they were looking for, they were looking for Britain good Russia bad - any detail on it, they saw as obsfucation, a dilution of the greater point. I will answer if they ask questions like this, and answer in good faith, but I wont push anything. Any such debate is framed around 'winning' (damn, all those videos on youtube where somebody is EVISCERATING or DESTROYING somebody else!)
I have a simple(ish) rule, if someone asks me openly or in good faith, I will respond the same. If someone talks at me, the best they'll get is "nah, not for me, dont see that at all", but they are more likely to get "ah, no idea, dunno owt about it mate". You don't have to be involved in statements masquerading as conversations!
― anvil, Monday, 14 May 2018 07:11 (two years ago) link
Sorry its a bit unfocussed, Ive had this on the go for a while! quite hard to condense thoughts on the fly
― anvil, Monday, 14 May 2018 07:24 (two years ago) link
One thing that struck me about this form of self-radicalization is how much its about repetition - simplification and repetition. For people making the mistake of engaging on some of these topics, its not about being on the right or wrong side of that topic, its about having that topic be the one with airtime, conversation time. A conversation about 'the BBC and the universities are brainwashing youth with cultural marxism, the police will come after you for using the wrong pronoun, Birmingham is now a no go city run by muslims". Really? This isn't a conversation that even deserves 'I don't see it like that", or any of my time! Its better to steer conversation elsewhere. Its better for this to be taking up less of their thought and talk time, and its certainly better for it to be taking up less of mine.
De-radicalizing people, i think is better achieved by getting them to think about some other damn things, engaging just hardens still further
(not saying your friend is or isnt radicalized, but when people talk and it sounds like their repeating the words of someone else, well)
― anvil, Monday, 14 May 2018 07:44 (two years ago) link
I'm not a good enough person to try to save anyone, I write off people who go beyond dipping their toes in the waters of Peterson/Shapiro/et al.. I struggle to be comfortably social with even 'mainstream' Republicans these days, the American conservative worldview is so aggressively reactionary and hateful - your average suburban GOP voter just hasn't progressed to saying the quiet part loud.
― louise ck (milo z), Monday, 14 May 2018 08:06 (two years ago) link
sage stuff from anvil there
― imago, Monday, 14 May 2018 08:32 (two years ago) link
― gneb farts (darraghmac), Monday, 14 May 2018 09:00 (two years ago) link
also youre not his da, short answer
Repeating "I've never seen that" helps, as often it gets a "well, neither have I but" acknowledgement.
― Mark G, Monday, 14 May 2018 12:26 (two years ago) link
why not murder them
― type your stinkin prose off me, ur damned qwerty uiop (wins), Monday, 14 May 2018 12:33 (two years ago) link
― The Beatles' Solo Deaths Poll (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 May 2018 12:36 (two years ago) link
get over it. people have opinions. furthermore people are more than their media consumption habits and painting somebody as "infected" because of their media choices is some weird dehumanization Othering that shouldnt impact a real life friendship. OP says they are irl friends that hang out w this person once a week. you don't feel comfortable discussing political topics with them in real life, yet you will make a big post on the internet and talk about them with strangers? this passive aggressive signalling through media choices has poisoned YOUR mind as well.
if it's a person you care about irl then talk to them. if you can't stand their social media posts you can hide them. it is like a two click action. if you need everyone of your friends to subscribe to the same media you do then it would seem the friendship is secondary to your social media feed. get over yourself.
― Hazy Maze Cave (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 14 May 2018 13:30 (two years ago) link
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 14 May 2018 13:31 (two years ago) link
being into comicsgate is not about "media preferences"
― Daniel_Rf, Monday, 14 May 2018 13:33 (two years ago) link
To be honest, the main issue for me isn’t “can I change his mind?” That won’t happen. It’s more, “can I continue being friends with him?” If he stays confined to complaining about “SJWs” ruining the comics industry online, maybe, but if it devolves beyond that? I’m not sure it will, but I can’t tell anymore. It seems like a lot of seemingly sane people’s brains have been broken over the last few years.
― latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 13:41 (two years ago) link
― latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 13:43 (two years ago) link
Adam, your post is more than a little fucked. 'Dehumanization' and 'othering' is exactly what this shit is all about. It's informed by very thinly-veiled white supremacy, and that kind of reappropriation of the language of oppression is exactly what they use to paint themselves as victims. 'Victims' of people who just want to see their own perspectives represented in media which is overwhelmingly white and male and hetero. You don't get to champion a viewpoint like that and then brush it off with a 'but I'm a cool guy otherwise'.
― Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 13:44 (two years ago) link
I wasn't even aware of comicsgate before this thread but of course there's a comicsgate, and of course it's in opposition to the exact comics and creators I would've expected. Expected but depressing as hell.
I dunno, man, no one can really tell you whether to remain friends with someone or not. Personally, I couldn't, but then I've never had trouble disconnecting myself from toxic people. The employment of 'SJW' as a pejorative is so pernicious because that particular utterance is several steps removed from what it's actually saying. You pooh-pooh the SJWs, which means you're against the social justice warriors, which tells me that you're against social justice, which in turn suggests you're for social injustice. And if you're a straight white dude, that tells me pretty much everything I need to know.
― Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 13:49 (two years ago) link
Shunning and ostracization are underrated methods of letting people know that their antisocial (in the most literal sense) views/behavior are unacceptable, imo.
― Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 13:51 (two years ago) link
I dunno, they seem pretty popular right now and I don't see them having much of an effect. Not that you need the effect to be clear, I don't think I could remain friends with a comicsgater either.
― Daniel_Rf, Monday, 14 May 2018 13:55 (two years ago) link
won't somebody save the alt-right from dehumanization and othering lmao
― Spiderman pointing at himself.img (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:00 (two years ago) link
Is comicsgate different than gamergate? I've cut off ties with most of my family because of their abhorrent views. I am not making small talk and sharing my life with them out of duty when they believe and say shitty things about women and other races. I put in my time trying to rationalize or have them try to restrain themselves. Out.
― Yerac, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:03 (two years ago) link
It’s basically Gamergate 2
― latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:05 (two years ago) link
From what I can tell, anyway
― Yerac, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:05 (two years ago) link
it is absolutely a personal decision to make. personally i have enough problems in my life and i don't need "friends" who are continually spewing toxic bullshit, whether it's openly or on a passive aggressive level. i'm not equivocating here, but i haven't found this to be a specifically right-wing problem. leftists who spend most of their time, in 2018, complaining about how terrible hillary clinton is will get the chopping block just as surely as anybody who uses the term "sjw" pejoratively will.
i've said it before and i'll keep saying it - when i cut people off it's not because i'm judging them as inferior. if anybody is "inferior" it's me, because i haven't got the energy to put up with that sort of thing anymore. i'm totally occupied with my own crazy, and don't have time for anybody else's.
― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:06 (two years ago) link
^^^ This too. I've had to put space between friends that I like but they spend all day texting me mundane complaints about shit everyone hates.
― Yerac, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:08 (two years ago) link
The Clintons are terrible tbf
― The Beatles' Solo Deaths Poll (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:09 (two years ago) link
This thread has really great clusterfuck potential
― imago, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:13 (two years ago) link
completely baffled by adam's post. latebloomer, you have my sympathies, i don't know what exactly i'd do. i'm on a weekly bar trivia team as a device to regularly see a certain cluster of friends and shoot the shit about movies, and i really can't imagine it being an enjoyable or meaningful experience if below the surface was the awareness that one of them is carrying water for alt-right talking points as a way of blowing off steam online or whatever it is. that's not a person i want in my life. but the exact etiquette and approach of making that cut, i don't know. for me personally, if they were really committed to this stuff i couldn't stay friends (and probably, we would have drifted apart long ago for not having much in common). we've spent a lot of time talking about this w/ regard to right-wing family, but friends are a slightly different matter in a lot of ways...if it's not QUITE to that point... hrrrrrm. i imagine staging an intervention would only feed the "libs are out to shut us down" mentality, but is there some viable version of "hey, man, i noticed you've been expressing some intense feelings online, has everything been okay?" or maybe even a way around to discussing his emotional state/life situation without mentioning the political stuff --- you're not his therapist, but if you are his friend it is mayyyyybe conceivable that he's still early in being seduced by this stuff (or susceptible to it being a brief phase that he later looks back on with embarrassment). and that it might be genuinely useful to open up a channel to talk about whatever it is that's leading him to frustration and grievance and blaming-the-sjws. it depends what kind of friendship it is, how close you are, how much cred you have with him versus how much he feels the youtube mini-limbaughs really get him, how much work it's worth to you, all of that stuff.
― noel gallaghah's high flying burbbhrbhbbhbburbbb (Doctor Casino), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:15 (two years ago) link
I liked South Park's depiction of Kyle's dad staying up nights to troll online like it's his job while drinking red wine.
― Yerac, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:22 (two years ago) link
If you have a racist friend Now is the time, now is the timePeople have opinions. Get over it.
― type your stinkin prose off me, ur damned qwerty uiop (wins), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:25 (two years ago) link
I mean, wrt this particular sitch, I can hang with people who don't agree with me politically/philosophically/religiously/etc but there are certain uncrossable ideological lines and stanning for white supremacy is one of those. Maybe laying it out in terms of 'disagreement is fine, championing oppression is not' would be helpful?
― Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:28 (two years ago) link
Argh, this thread made me google comicsgate and now I hate knowing what it is. Tell your friend I blame him for that.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:31 (two years ago) link
pretty sure most of the people i drink with are some kind of right wing but it's not like we spend much time talking about politics except when they accuse me of being a Maoist
― The Beatles' Solo Deaths Poll (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:32 (two years ago) link
and i agree with them and tell them they'll be up against the wall first
― The Beatles' Solo Deaths Poll (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:33 (two years ago) link
Also, one possible tack to take wrt comics creators in particular is to discuss the reappropriation of Pepe the Frog. Ask him how he would feel about people hijacking his own work to express political opinions completely counter to his own. And how he feels about a professional like Van Sciver in particular doing just that. Even divorced of the political implications, it's hugely disrespectful and unprofessional.
― Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:33 (two years ago) link
Oh man, I just read up on comicsgate too. This shit is so unbelievably stupid.
― Yerac, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:52 (two years ago) link
― latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:58 (two years ago) link
I think the thing these trolling dipshits don't get is that you don't get to claim "oh, I'm actually a nice guy in person, I'm just trolling" when 100% of your public persona is racist, sexist, garbage
if you genuinely believe the problem is that it's the "wrong people" getting work or acclaim based only on their ethnicity, gender, or views... then spend your time advocating for people you think are talented and help them find an audience
latebloomer, has your friend published anything before? there genuinely are some barriers to entry if you're not established, but I don't think any of them have to do with being a white man. I knew some people who genuinely tried to break into mainstream comics a number of years ago, and none of the reasons they failed to get a strong foothold had anything to do with this comicsgate horseshit.
― mh, Monday, 14 May 2018 15:18 (two years ago) link
Not to get too off track but was a picture of a bunch of young women enjoying milkshakes really a catalyst?
― Nhex, Monday, 14 May 2018 15:44 (two years ago) link
women can't be employed in a coveted field, happy, and pictured together. it just drives dudes completely insane
― mh, Monday, 14 May 2018 15:47 (two years ago) link
I also didn't know about Comicsgate (or I knew, but about the one a few years ago around "hey guys maybe don't put traced porn shots on comic covers") - the article here makes the point that it doesn't even have the figleaf of ethics in games journalism, it's literally just "we fear the rise of women and brown people"
― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 14 May 2018 15:47 (two years ago) link
I am not sure if laughing is the right response to idiotic claims, but I snorted when I saw this gem from one of these comicsgate turds
good lord pic.twitter.com/S2aY5Fcnwg— BAKOON (@BAKKOOONN) May 14, 2018
― mh, Monday, 14 May 2018 15:56 (two years ago) link
I think the ongoing collapse of legitimacy of liberal institutions, increasingly anxiety producing omnipresence of (social)media, increasing forgetfulness of 20th century totalitarianisms (and hence the taboos around them) and finally ambient stress from environmental collapse all push ideological identification closer to the Cult mindset than it's ever been since the 40s. Or at the very least the melding of Cult tendencies familiar from the mid-century with political discourse seems like a natural evolution of the form. Hence, you should take your cues from this guy:
― ryan, Monday, 14 May 2018 16:06 (two years ago) link
All nerd media needs to morph into a wall-to-wall multicultural pansexual orgy until all the chuds are stricken with massive rage aneurysms, at which time we can return to business as usual.
― Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 16:08 (two years ago) link
xpost Yes, I feel like deprogramming techniques are probably going to be an increasingly-useful tool to have in one's belt, sadly.
― Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 16:09 (two years ago) link
― sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:27 (five days ago) link
But why did they put their faith in a celebrity grotesque to transform the nation?
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:33 (five days ago) link
Because they want to be him? idk
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:34 (five days ago) link
The whole trump story has been bizarre from the start and Q is perhaps the most sinister chapter of all. The sheer weirdness is overwhelming, the unreality, like something from a nightmare. I don’t know if there is a path back to reality for these people or not but it’s very important that this is contained in some way.
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:35 (five days ago) link
And Rhonda Byrne, as I've been saying for years.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 19:51 (forty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
You fuckin take that back
― Ole Blueyes Solskjaer (darraghmac), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:37 (five days ago) link
It had to come out sooner or later, deems. You've known this all along.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:38 (five days ago) link
Because you think he is grotesque
― anvil, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:40 (five days ago) link
The magical thinking stuff goes back to norman vincent peale, the preacher at the church Trump attended growing up. Maybe the underlying illness behind all this—I mean America—is the notion that one is special and deserves to have their fantasies realized. You can’t really be an ethical human being if you’re a narcissist.
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:40 (five days ago) link
The lesson I'm taking away from this is that if you promise something, no matter what it is or how improbable it is that you or anyone else would be able to deliver it, there will be people who will believe you, because they want to. Trump could reach an unusual number of people with his promises because he had massive celebrity and the carefully constructed public image of an authority figure who could get things done.
― Lily Dale, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:40 (five days ago) link
I reckon that looking for a cause or looking for "the person" who triggers this stuff is misguided and there's too much of it in your questions treesh.
You're more than smart enough to know that trump doesnt rise to attention let alone power in an unsick society. A society with the symptoms displayed by the US since at least the tea party gained traction finds their trump, the more grotesque an example of a rejection of what a leader should be in the accepted incumbent regime that the malcontent rump are disaffected with the better
xp anvil otm
Trumps being hoisted in mockery of ordinary progress is mere evidence of his own inadequacy
― Ole Blueyes Solskjaer (darraghmac), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:41 (five days ago) link
― anvil, Tuesday, January 12, 2021 3:40 PM (twenty seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink
I mean he is literally a grotesque, a cartoon, a self-parody. I feel like he knew this back when he was inventing his public persona in the 80s.
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:42 (five days ago) link
the notion that one is special and deserves to have their fantasies realized
This is a huge one, yeah. I don't think Trump-style fascism would work as well in more collectivist countries. Another kind of grifter is (and was) needed.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:42 (five days ago) link
Maybe the underlying illness behind all this—I mean America—is the notion that one is special and deserves to have their fantasies realized. You can’t really be an ethical human being if you’re a narcissist. Yes! 100% OTM
― Dan I., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:46 (five days ago) link
This isn't anything recent
Right,conspiracy theories aren't anything recent, but they sure seem to have recently grown in popularity. I think a lot of that is due to the internet, but the psychologist in me suspects the sense of powerlessness and ignorance, the feeling of being such a small thing in a big, uncaring complex modern world is driving it to some degree as well. The nature of the conspiracies lead me to think this ie nearly all involve explaining the true nature, controlling forces, and plot of global human society/economy. I This isn't anything recent def may be wrong!
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:47 (five days ago) link
You look down on them, you look down on him.
You think you're saying "why do they think he is one of them he's rich he doesn't care about them"
You're actually saying "he is one of them".
― anvil, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:48 (five days ago) link
No there is certainly something to this. I think the internet also collapses space and time in a way that is really disorienting to people. Metanarratives about how it all works can feel more real to people than the world in front of them, their communities, their families (if they’re lucky enough to have them).
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:50 (five days ago) link
Why am I the avatar of elite disdain all of a sudden? I agree that his followers like trump because they believe he is hated by the same people who hate them—the snobs. But i try not to be part of that.
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:52 (five days ago) link
I mean he is literally a grotesque, a cartoon, a self-parody.
So was Mussolini.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:52 (five days ago) link
Conspiracy theorists also share a dystopian view of the ultimate endpoint of human nature that is deeply corrosive to whatever version of a soul one might believe in, and ofc taken to extremes is a self-fulfilling prophecy
― Ole Blueyes Solskjaer (darraghmac), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:53 (five days ago) link
Never mind that, have you checked the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland lately?
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:54 (five days ago) link
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:55 (five days ago) link
Absolutely. This is a bitter vision of the world—the redemption promised by the storm isn’t a gentle one, there’s no redemption there
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:55 (five days ago) link
What’s really crazy is that many of them are longing for an america they never lived in. According to the q theory kennedy was the last “real” american president before the takeover of the cabal. The woman who was shot this weekend was born over two decades after kennedy’s assassination—the america she wants to restore is just a myth to her, like eden, all she’s known is the “fallen world” in her view
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:57 (five days ago) link
You reject a world that doesn't suit you if you have no other coping tools i guess
― Ole Blueyes Solskjaer (darraghmac), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:58 (five days ago) link
Anyone here heard about this "plandemic" the fake news dreamed up? Every time they want to cow the sheeple they up the daily death toll by 20%. It's all just big numbers and then even bigger numbers. No truth in it is what I hear people are saying.
― Respectfully Yours, (Aimless), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 20:59 (five days ago) link
longing for an america they never lived in.
myths of a golden era in the past have been around since the Garden of Eden
― Respectfully Yours, (Aimless), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:00 (five days ago) link
Seriously, that's the least 'crazy' thing about QAnon.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:03 (five days ago) link
Yeah but there have been better and worse answers to the question of how to get back there. This is a worse one.
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:04 (five days ago) link
It's much easier to believe that the past was a golden a era if you weren't alive for it. Or if you were a child (with a decent childhood). It's no coincidence that the "good old days" of the 50s were when boomers were kids.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:04 (five days ago) link
I used to think these reactionaries could be flipped by a Bernie type who emphasized a return to the “american dream” of prosperity, opportunity and stability. (Which never really existed, but in the decades of the postwar boom felt more attainable for white blue collar workers). Such a message need not be divisive or racist or mystical or even nostalgic—it could be tailored to an inclusive vision of a new working class that was disproportionally black and latino and more in service Industries than industrial jobs.
But now i think these people aren’t interested at all in material stability. They want transcendence, meaning, all the things one shouldn’t look for in politics, which is why racial grievance is more interesting to them than like shoring yo social security for a new generation. It’s very fucked and it honestly seems like this is a nation of spoiled children.
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:17 (five days ago) link
Millennials, my cohort, are open to social democracy as seen in the rise of the squad and others. The future lies with them but they’re always going to have to fight these people it seems—I don’t think we can ever have a unifying class politics.
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:19 (five days ago) link
I don't think we should expect millennials to maintain their core beliefs over the next few decades.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:23 (five days ago) link
I don’t see us turning right unless we actually acquire savings and assetts
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:24 (five days ago) link
Maybe this kind of Q Anon fantasyland right, I guess. No one is immune because it’s not related to material reality.
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:25 (five days ago) link
Don't jinx it… a couple of decades is a long time.
xp yes, that's what I had in mind.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:25 (five days ago) link
If that stuff grows though the country is fucked.
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:26 (five days ago) link
You'd be amazed trís a mhic but ppl do, yknow
― Ole Blueyes Solskjaer (darraghmac), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:31 (five days ago) link
do they want transcendence or do they want whiteness which does give them significant material / psychological benefits
I still think a leftish national populism could "work" on some of these people if it ever managed to cut through the noise but it couldn't ever not be racist (see: UK 2015-2020) because in order to be inclusive of such a heterogenous working class it would have to downplay (reproduce) the divisions that exist within the class and across (unquestionable) national borders
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:41 (five days ago) link
this is very much a problem within millennial socialism which is sadly still the most convincing alternative to this mess (liberals seem to believe in absolutely nothing these days)
― as#d,.F:ddz;,c#,;;,;,;,sdf' (Left), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:43 (five days ago) link
Millennials, my cohort, are open to social democracy as seen in the rise of the squad
This framing irritates me because half the Squad (Pressley, Tlaib) are Gen X, who were previously thought to be the generation who would usher in a wave of progressive change and well... we are now here
― Totino's Fortnite Training Room (DJP), Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:46 (five days ago) link
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:47 (five days ago) link
Point taken. As is left’s. I think the key thing is for the left to act locally a put people in local government where they can work with constituencies united by geography as well as class interest. Starting at the top with a national candidate didn’t work—it fractured due to these competing interests. The left didn’t have any real roots. That’s my theory anyway
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:50 (five days ago) link
People don’t have local newspapers or unions anymore though mostly so this bottom up strategy will also be a struggle
― treeship., Tuesday, 12 January 2021 21:52 (five days ago) link
In other words, solving puzzles is extremely rewarding from a biochemical standpoint and the thoughts we gain from them are special to us.
This part of the article is something I've been thinking about since it was used as a plot device in some novel I read years ago - the villain throws people off the track by planting false information but well hidden as though it's not meant to be found *and also* planting more easily disprovable false information weakly pointing to the opposite effect - the 'investigators' need to work harder and smarter to find the hidden info and therefore place far more value in it and are less inclined to disregard it whatever else happens. (It's not really akin to the 'the baddie is somehow always one step ahead and knew we'd do xyz so was constantly doing things to their detriment just to trick us' that seems to form the basis of loads of detective/spy tv shows)
― kinder, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 22:52 (five days ago) link
Yeah that bit is cool. I'd love to hear more about how/why discovered (or "discovered") ideas are particularly special.
― DJI, Wednesday, 13 January 2021 00:04 (four days ago) link
I’ve been reading (listening to) The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer, written in the Bush years & shows its age a bit as well as being a bit too smug. Still useful to understand why pointing out their hypocrisies or destroying them with facts & logic (TM) will never ever ever ever work — their minds just don’t think like that. It’s all, 100%, about tribal loyalty. No real revelations in the book but it’s crystallized some of my recent thoughts & concerns.
― Guys don’t @ me because I tazed my own balls alright? (hardcore dilettante), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 04:28 (four days ago) link
this is from September 2020 and was probably posted here already (can't find it but am on my phone) - https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5
― StanM, Wednesday, 13 January 2021 06:34 (four days ago) link
Facts and logic will always be a dead end. As you say its now about what is said, its about who says it. But even within that, it's about how its said. But also why start from the area of disagreement instead of starting out with establishing where there's consensus, and build up from there. Building up is always easier than knocking down. Stories are always better than facts
But really, we all know people to varying degrees who have this. If you want to know, just ask them! But you have to remove not just any judgement, but anything at all, if there is anything to react to, they'll go there instead. There has to be nothing to react to for it to work. This is good to do anyway, with anyone
I'd love to hear more about how/why discovered (or "discovered") ideas are particularly special.
In general, learning in general works better this way because the dots are connected and cemented in a way that works for that particular person. Again, stories are more memorable than facts, less abstract, more connecting. Isn't this the case with following online tutorials vs having to work something out where the tutorial doesn't quite fit?
The Game design article is really good
― anvil, Wednesday, 13 January 2021 06:40 (four days ago) link
Dr Bob Altemeyer is writing an updated book with John Dean
― Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Wednesday, 13 January 2021 08:06 (four days ago) link