Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

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‪I honestly don’t know where else to talk to about this.

So a longtime IRL friend (we’ve been friends since 7th grade) of mine who I still hang out with fairly frequently
has enmeshed himself in the online circle of aggrieved man-children surrounding “comicsgate” and the Right-ish shithead politics involved with it. He himself recently finished a graphic novel and is trying to raise money to get it independently published, which I suspect was how he got sucked into this.

Recently I noticed a rightward slant to a lot of his social media posts but it wasn’t until today when I took a closer look and saw that he’s been hobnobbing with a lot of alt-right adjacent type folks and actively arguing with “SJWs”. He’s always been an opinionated, stubborn bastard (as am I) but his opinions were usually relegated to things like comics and movies. Now he’s apparently following dudes like Stephen Crowder and tweeting recommendations for books by Ben Shapiro. BEN MOTHERFUCKING SHAPIRO. Ugh.

Maybe I’m a shitty friend but that’s kinda beyond the pale, no? I can’t expect everyone in my life to share my politics but some kind of baseline “don’t be a right-wing piece of shit” rule still applies, right?

It’s just heartbreaking because he’s not a jerk at all IRL. He’s always been a good friend and has helped me out and had my back numerous times. But in his online life he’s kinda turning into a real “why won’t you let me debate you, coward” sort of douche.

So far this hasn’t come up because these days we don’t really interact online much (and in fact it was only today I realized how far down the rabbit hole he’d gone). We get together to do pub trivia once a week and that’s usually our hang out time.

He’s aware of my political leanings but then again I’m not sure he understands why his newfound preoccupation with owning “SJWs” online would be alarming to me. I feel debating him would be fruitless. I’m too thin-skinned anyway. I dunno. This is such a bummer to me.

latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 00:16 (one year ago) link

I think lightly sticking to the “that’s not really my experience, why do you say that?” soft peddling of dissent works if you’re trying to remain friends. Being involved in his non-political social life helps, because sometimes this shit is contrarian internet junk where dudes lack a really social outlet and decide the best way to do so is to get really angry and blow off steam, which is where these outrage merchants really dig in

If you do feel the need to call out, be cautious and stick to issues and not widespread anti-whatever stances. As much as those types like to complain about identity politics, they tend to stick all of their issues together and anyone challenging one piece is an affront to their adopted conservative identity.

mh, Monday, 14 May 2018 00:25 (one year ago) link

Being involved in his non-political social life helps, because sometimes this shit is contrarian internet junk where dudes lack a really social outlet and decide the best way to do so is to get really angry and blow off steam, which is where these outrage merchants really dig in

Yeah he’s always been the type to adopt an opinion and be extremely, rigidly adamant about it and then later adopt a completely different opinion and act as if he’d always thought that way. Being his friend for almost 25 years I’m pretty used to that but this time his gripes and resentments are being reinforced by a whole community of fellow agry nerds with which he networks. It’s kind of terrifying, to be honest.

The only remotely “comforting” aspect of this whole business is that most of my friend’s bullshit is currently confined to the world of comics. Which is probably why I haven’t noticed it until now.

latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 02:56 (one year ago) link

I suppose, to add a minor point to what mh has said, stick to the talking about the ideas/behaviours rather than making it personal ("that idea doesn't ring true to me" rather than "you're wrong and bad, and here's why")? Possibly implicit too, but I often find that approach works better than personalising things too much.

Thomas NAGL (Neil S), Monday, 14 May 2018 06:35 (one year ago) link

I have this, though its a relative (in their 30s). Its been gradually increasing over the last few years, jordan peterson, ben shapiro, there are 37 genres now , snowflakes, virtue signalling, brexit, cultural marxism, jacob rees mogg, socialists. The own understanding or nuance isn't there, the straight repetition of right wing talking points.

What to do? the conclusion Ive come to, is...nothing. You have to look at yourself here, what is this debating you're imagining is going to happen. A debate is when two people accept the premise or framework of such. If you think you're going to go in their house and change their mind, it doesnt work like that. Any 'debate' should be initiated by them, not you, and only partake if they are asking you something, not if they are telling you something and putting a question mark on the end. Otherwise, you're being used by someone honing their opinion, you're fulfilling a role. The radicalized person never asks open questions.

But also you have to be honest with yourself - any kind of "yes, but dont you think that"....this is no good, for anyone!

I think when this happens you're dealing with something more existential than a debate really covers. 'Are you one of us, or not, anything else is just hot air'. I was once asked in email, by my relative, about my thoughts on the situation with Russia. I have a fairly detailed answer trying to cover as many bases as possible. Did it make any difference to anything? Ive no idea because there it was never mentioned again, it wasnt what they were looking for, they were looking for Britain good Russia bad - any detail on it, they saw as obsfucation, a dilution of the greater point. I will answer if they ask questions like this, and answer in good faith, but I wont push anything. Any such debate is framed around 'winning' (damn, all those videos on youtube where somebody is EVISCERATING or DESTROYING somebody else!)

I have a simple(ish) rule, if someone asks me openly or in good faith, I will respond the same. If someone talks at me, the best they'll get is "nah, not for me, dont see that at all", but they are more likely to get "ah, no idea, dunno owt about it mate". You don't have to be involved in statements masquerading as conversations!

anvil, Monday, 14 May 2018 07:11 (one year ago) link

Sorry its a bit unfocussed, Ive had this on the go for a while! quite hard to condense thoughts on the fly

anvil, Monday, 14 May 2018 07:24 (one year ago) link

One thing that struck me about this form of self-radicalization is how much its about repetition - simplification and repetition. For people making the mistake of engaging on some of these topics, its not about being on the right or wrong side of that topic, its about having that topic be the one with airtime, conversation time. A conversation about 'the BBC and the universities are brainwashing youth with cultural marxism, the police will come after you for using the wrong pronoun, Birmingham is now a no go city run by muslims". Really? This isn't a conversation that even deserves 'I don't see it like that", or any of my time! Its better to steer conversation elsewhere. Its better for this to be taking up less of their thought and talk time, and its certainly better for it to be taking up less of mine.

De-radicalizing people, i think is better achieved by getting them to think about some other damn things, engaging just hardens still further

(not saying your friend is or isnt radicalized, but when people talk and it sounds like their repeating the words of someone else, well)

anvil, Monday, 14 May 2018 07:44 (one year ago) link

I'm not a good enough person to try to save anyone, I write off people who go beyond dipping their toes in the waters of Peterson/Shapiro/et al.. I struggle to be comfortably social with even 'mainstream' Republicans these days, the American conservative worldview is so aggressively reactionary and hateful - your average suburban GOP voter just hasn't progressed to saying the quiet part loud.

louise ck (milo z), Monday, 14 May 2018 08:06 (one year ago) link

sage stuff from anvil there

imago, Monday, 14 May 2018 08:32 (one year ago) link

yep

gneb farts (darraghmac), Monday, 14 May 2018 09:00 (one year ago) link

also youre not his da, short answer

gneb farts (darraghmac), Monday, 14 May 2018 09:00 (one year ago) link

Repeating "I've never seen that" helps, as often it gets a "well, neither have I but" acknowledgement.

Mark G, Monday, 14 May 2018 12:26 (one year ago) link

why not murder them

type your stinkin prose off me, ur damned qwerty uiop (wins), Monday, 14 May 2018 12:33 (one year ago) link

NAILS IT

The Beatles' Solo Deaths Poll (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 May 2018 12:36 (one year ago) link

get over it. people have opinions. furthermore people are more than their media consumption habits and painting somebody as "infected" because of their media choices is some weird dehumanization Othering that shouldnt impact a real life friendship. OP says they are irl friends that hang out w this person once a week. you don't feel comfortable discussing political topics with them in real life, yet you will make a big post on the internet and talk about them with strangers? this passive aggressive signalling through media choices has poisoned YOUR mind as well.

if it's a person you care about irl then talk to them. if you can't stand their social media posts you can hide them. it is like a two click action. if you need everyone of your friends to subscribe to the same media you do then it would seem the friendship is secondary to your social media feed. get over yourself.

Hazy Maze Cave (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 14 May 2018 13:30 (one year ago) link

https://i.imgur.com/1WU8ron.jpg

Ned Raggett, Monday, 14 May 2018 13:31 (one year ago) link

being into comicsgate is not about "media preferences"

Daniel_Rf, Monday, 14 May 2018 13:33 (one year ago) link

To be honest, the main issue for me isn’t “can I change his mind?” That won’t happen. It’s more, “can I continue being friends with him?” If he stays confined to complaining about “SJWs” ruining the comics industry online, maybe, but if it devolves beyond that? I’m not sure it will, but I can’t tell anymore. It seems like a lot of seemingly sane people’s brains have been broken over the last few years.

latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 13:41 (one year ago) link

Uh, x-post

latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 13:43 (one year ago) link

Adam, your post is more than a little fucked. 'Dehumanization' and 'othering' is exactly what this shit is all about. It's informed by very thinly-veiled white supremacy, and that kind of reappropriation of the language of oppression is exactly what they use to paint themselves as victims. 'Victims' of people who just want to see their own perspectives represented in media which is overwhelmingly white and male and hetero. You don't get to champion a viewpoint like that and then brush it off with a 'but I'm a cool guy otherwise'.

Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 13:44 (one year ago) link

I wasn't even aware of comicsgate before this thread but of course there's a comicsgate, and of course it's in opposition to the exact comics and creators I would've expected. Expected but depressing as hell.

I dunno, man, no one can really tell you whether to remain friends with someone or not. Personally, I couldn't, but then I've never had trouble disconnecting myself from toxic people. The employment of 'SJW' as a pejorative is so pernicious because that particular utterance is several steps removed from what it's actually saying. You pooh-pooh the SJWs, which means you're against the social justice warriors, which tells me that you're against social justice, which in turn suggests you're for social injustice. And if you're a straight white dude, that tells me pretty much everything I need to know.

Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 13:49 (one year ago) link

Shunning and ostracization are underrated methods of letting people know that their antisocial (in the most literal sense) views/behavior are unacceptable, imo.

Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 13:51 (one year ago) link

I dunno, they seem pretty popular right now and I don't see them having much of an effect. Not that you need the effect to be clear, I don't think I could remain friends with a comicsgater either.

Daniel_Rf, Monday, 14 May 2018 13:55 (one year ago) link

won't somebody save the alt-right from dehumanization and othering lmao

Spiderman pointing at himself.img (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:00 (one year ago) link

Is comicsgate different than gamergate? I've cut off ties with most of my family because of their abhorrent views. I am not making small talk and sharing my life with them out of duty when they believe and say shitty things about women and other races. I put in my time trying to rationalize or have them try to restrain themselves. Out.

Yerac, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:03 (one year ago) link

It’s basically Gamergate 2

latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:05 (one year ago) link

From what I can tell, anyway

latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:05 (one year ago) link

Lovely. Sigh.

Yerac, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:05 (one year ago) link

it is absolutely a personal decision to make. personally i have enough problems in my life and i don't need "friends" who are continually spewing toxic bullshit, whether it's openly or on a passive aggressive level. i'm not equivocating here, but i haven't found this to be a specifically right-wing problem. leftists who spend most of their time, in 2018, complaining about how terrible hillary clinton is will get the chopping block just as surely as anybody who uses the term "sjw" pejoratively will.

i've said it before and i'll keep saying it - when i cut people off it's not because i'm judging them as inferior. if anybody is "inferior" it's me, because i haven't got the energy to put up with that sort of thing anymore. i'm totally occupied with my own crazy, and don't have time for anybody else's.

Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:06 (one year ago) link

^^^ This too. I've had to put space between friends that I like but they spend all day texting me mundane complaints about shit everyone hates.

Yerac, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:08 (one year ago) link

The Clintons are terrible tbf

The Beatles' Solo Deaths Poll (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:09 (one year ago) link

This thread has really great clusterfuck potential

imago, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:13 (one year ago) link

completely baffled by adam's post. latebloomer, you have my sympathies, i don't know what exactly i'd do. i'm on a weekly bar trivia team as a device to regularly see a certain cluster of friends and shoot the shit about movies, and i really can't imagine it being an enjoyable or meaningful experience if below the surface was the awareness that one of them is carrying water for alt-right talking points as a way of blowing off steam online or whatever it is. that's not a person i want in my life. but the exact etiquette and approach of making that cut, i don't know. for me personally, if they were really committed to this stuff i couldn't stay friends (and probably, we would have drifted apart long ago for not having much in common). we've spent a lot of time talking about this w/ regard to right-wing family, but friends are a slightly different matter in a lot of ways...

if it's not QUITE to that point... hrrrrrm. i imagine staging an intervention would only feed the "libs are out to shut us down" mentality, but is there some viable version of "hey, man, i noticed you've been expressing some intense feelings online, has everything been okay?" or maybe even a way around to discussing his emotional state/life situation without mentioning the political stuff --- you're not his therapist, but if you are his friend it is mayyyyybe conceivable that he's still early in being seduced by this stuff (or susceptible to it being a brief phase that he later looks back on with embarrassment). and that it might be genuinely useful to open up a channel to talk about whatever it is that's leading him to frustration and grievance and blaming-the-sjws. it depends what kind of friendship it is, how close you are, how much cred you have with him versus how much he feels the youtube mini-limbaughs really get him, how much work it's worth to you, all of that stuff.

noel gallaghah's high flying burbbhrbhbbhbburbbb (Doctor Casino), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:15 (one year ago) link

I liked South Park's depiction of Kyle's dad staying up nights to troll online like it's his job while drinking red wine.

Yerac, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:22 (one year ago) link

If you have a racist friend
Now is the time, now is the time
People have opinions. Get over it.

type your stinkin prose off me, ur damned qwerty uiop (wins), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:25 (one year ago) link

I mean, wrt this particular sitch, I can hang with people who don't agree with me politically/philosophically/religiously/etc but there are certain uncrossable ideological lines and stanning for white supremacy is one of those. Maybe laying it out in terms of 'disagreement is fine, championing oppression is not' would be helpful?

Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:28 (one year ago) link

Argh, this thread made me google comicsgate and now I hate knowing what it is. Tell your friend I blame him for that.

pretty sure most of the people i drink with are some kind of right wing but it's not like we spend much time talking about politics except when they accuse me of being a Maoist

The Beatles' Solo Deaths Poll (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:32 (one year ago) link

and i agree with them and tell them they'll be up against the wall first

The Beatles' Solo Deaths Poll (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:33 (one year ago) link

Also, one possible tack to take wrt comics creators in particular is to discuss the reappropriation of Pepe the Frog. Ask him how he would feel about people hijacking his own work to express political opinions completely counter to his own. And how he feels about a professional like Van Sciver in particular doing just that. Even divorced of the political implications, it's hugely disrespectful and unprofessional.

Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 14:33 (one year ago) link

Oh man, I just read up on comicsgate too. This shit is so unbelievably stupid.

Yerac, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:52 (one year ago) link

Yep :(

latebloomer, Monday, 14 May 2018 14:58 (one year ago) link

I think the thing these trolling dipshits don't get is that you don't get to claim "oh, I'm actually a nice guy in person, I'm just trolling" when 100% of your public persona is racist, sexist, garbage

if you genuinely believe the problem is that it's the "wrong people" getting work or acclaim based only on their ethnicity, gender, or views... then spend your time advocating for people you think are talented and help them find an audience

latebloomer, has your friend published anything before? there genuinely are some barriers to entry if you're not established, but I don't think any of them have to do with being a white man. I knew some people who genuinely tried to break into mainstream comics a number of years ago, and none of the reasons they failed to get a strong foothold had anything to do with this comicsgate horseshit.

mh, Monday, 14 May 2018 15:18 (one year ago) link

Not to get too off track but was a picture of a bunch of young women enjoying milkshakes really a catalyst?

Nhex, Monday, 14 May 2018 15:44 (one year ago) link

women can't be employed in a coveted field, happy, and pictured together. it just drives dudes completely insane

mh, Monday, 14 May 2018 15:47 (one year ago) link

I also didn't know about Comicsgate (or I knew, but about the one a few years ago around "hey guys maybe don't put traced porn shots on comic covers") - the article here makes the point that it doesn't even have the figleaf of ethics in games journalism, it's literally just "we fear the rise of women and brown people"

https://www.inverse.com/article/41132-comicsgate-explained-bigots-milkshake-marvel-dc-gamergate

Andrew Farrell, Monday, 14 May 2018 15:47 (one year ago) link

I am not sure if laughing is the right response to idiotic claims, but I snorted when I saw this gem from one of these comicsgate turds

good lord pic.twitter.com/S2aY5Fcnwg

— BAKOON (@BAKKOOONN) May 14, 2018

mh, Monday, 14 May 2018 15:56 (one year ago) link

I think the ongoing collapse of legitimacy of liberal institutions, increasingly anxiety producing omnipresence of (social)media, increasing forgetfulness of 20th century totalitarianisms (and hence the taboos around them) and finally ambient stress from environmental collapse all push ideological identification closer to the Cult mindset than it's ever been since the 40s. Or at the very least the melding of Cult tendencies familiar from the mid-century with political discourse seems like a natural evolution of the form. Hence, you should take your cues from this guy:

https://harpers.org/archive/2013/11/the-man-who-saves-you-from-yourself/

ryan, Monday, 14 May 2018 16:06 (one year ago) link

All nerd media needs to morph into a wall-to-wall multicultural pansexual orgy until all the chuds are stricken with massive rage aneurysms, at which time we can return to business as usual.

Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 16:08 (one year ago) link

xpost Yes, I feel like deprogramming techniques are probably going to be an increasingly-useful tool to have in one's belt, sadly.

Delightful in Microdoses (Old Lunch), Monday, 14 May 2018 16:09 (one year ago) link

the left does the same thing to the right where they extrapolate from their first principles and their seeming commitments to all kinds of horrors that the right-wingers themselves would blanch at

2016: "Calm down snowflake its not like Trump is gonna start putting people into concentration camps."

2019: "Actually they're necessary."

— Dan Arrows (@_DanArrows) July 14, 2019

quelle sprocket damage (sic), Monday, 15 July 2019 16:16 (two months ago) link

The thread could absolutely do with some examples of Left Wing Brain Worms too, and Non-Political Brain Worms!

anvil, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:18 (two months ago) link

ftr i don't want to argue about whether the border camps or the trump administration are as bad as the left thinks they are and i do believe "concentration camp" is a okay term to use to describe the camps even if i do understand for most ppl the term will evoke the Holocaust and i don't think they're remotely comparable really, but there are many leftists (and lol i can name names) who will actually accuse the trump administration of preparing to commit genocide or as voodoo chili says above create an ethnostate when obv even if you could plausibly argue that idk Stephen Miller may want that there's no evidence that it's en route or particularly plausible but you can find all kinds of sentiments like this often in the guise of hyperbole or like dramatic license. i just thought it was funny seeing this kind of anti-slippery slope argument on ilx when i have seen loads of radical opinions expressed here which is to say what i said above lol these lunatics think we want to do the things we say we want to do. i do think they're totally wrong tho about liberalism or even the left in general but that's bc i think ilx is fairly marginal and non-representative of the general population.

Mordy, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:25 (two months ago) link

i don't believe the trump administration is preparing to commit genocide, but im also not sure how different it would look from our current situation if they were preparing to commit genocide.

mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili), Monday, 15 July 2019 16:28 (two months ago) link

probably they'd be killing more people

Mordy, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:29 (two months ago) link

that's fair. if they were planning to kill people systematically, they'd probably be killing more people unsystematically

mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili), Monday, 15 July 2019 16:32 (two months ago) link

but i also think that type of thinking lets the brainworms people into thinking that anything done to illegal immigrants or asylees short of killing people is a-ok

mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili), Monday, 15 July 2019 16:34 (two months ago) link

*lets them think

mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili), Monday, 15 July 2019 16:34 (two months ago) link

if they were preparing for the possibility to get violent with, say, undocument immigrants, they would probably be doing things like constantly comparing them to animals and trying to blame them for everything that happens in the country, possibly even raising the idea of just shooting them as they cross the border to see how the population reacts

Karl Malone, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:35 (two months ago) link

I wasn't making an anti-slippery slope argument though! I'm totally happy for my cousin or anyone else to make any kind of slippery slope argument. I'd just like my cousin (or the leftist you are referring to in your post) to tell me what their argument actually is.

I'm totally ok with someone making the following argument

1) Corbyn is elected
2) Something
3) UK becomes Venezuela

They may be correct! I just want to know what it is thats happening in that step 2

(feel free to replace Corbyn with Trump, Bernie, Boris or anyone!)

anvil, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:35 (two months ago) link

that kind of language would probably come from near the top, and it would be pretty disturbing if everyone just got used to it and no one really called it out any more

so we're fine

Karl Malone, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:36 (two months ago) link

xp

Karl Malone, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:36 (two months ago) link

anvil what if they said "corbyn constantly sympathizes with regimes in places like cuba, venezeula and paramilitary organizations like hamas and hezboillah consequently if he were elected we might expect him to make changes that would make us more like those places"

Mordy, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:39 (two months ago) link

i mean do you need a step by step blueprint for how that would go down bc i could write up some speculative fiction but i feel like it could easily be left as an exercise for the reader

Mordy, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:40 (two months ago) link

Its a start! But I would want to know

1) What changes
2) What percentage chance he would have of getting those changes through parliament
3) What kind of timeframe

I'd have further questions like how he would handle a parliamentary rebellion, whether the changes would have popularity with the public or not, what the role of the police and the military would be - but those are difficult without knowing the answers to 1) and 2)

anvil, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:44 (two months ago) link

No Mordy please can you write this up I could do with some comedy rn.

xyzzzz__, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:44 (two months ago) link

i feel like it could easily be left as an exercise for the reader

― Mordy,

this is where it runs into trouble for me, because I'm having trouble imagining what these things are, and how they are going to happen. Sadly I also have trouble imagining a Corbyn government is really going to have much success in achieving 5% of its stated aims, never mind unstated aims of which I'm unable to properly imagine!

anvil, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:46 (two months ago) link

My pt is that you could say the same for trumps imminent genocide but ilxors don’t feel compelled to explain how it would actually go down

Mordy, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:48 (two months ago) link

The idea that a 'Corbyn government' will be able to do anything genuinely radical or far left is laughable tbh. No chance.

Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Monday, 15 July 2019 16:54 (two months ago) link

That much is clear. But I assume Mordy is wondering whether the notion that a Johnson government would get anything radical done at the other end of spectrum is any less laughable.

My sense is that the left, even when it reaches the highest rungs, has its hands tied more often than the right.

pomenitul, Monday, 15 July 2019 16:58 (two months ago) link

imminent

come on, man

mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili), Monday, 15 July 2019 16:59 (two months ago) link

anvil what if they said "corbyn constantly sympathizes with regimes in places like cuba, venezeula and paramilitary organizations like hamas and hezboillah consequently if he were elected we might expect him to make changes that would make us more like those places"

This is an extremely weak case and always has been - he has over 30 years of campaigning and voting to pore over & it’s pretty easy to see his views and aims for the country. Whatever one thinks of some of the people he’s met, he’s not alone in meeting with dodgy or objectional people - and purely on a selfish point, he’s not promising to deny war crimes like a ton of other people who either are or will soon be in power.

Trump is putting children in camps, he is appointing white nationalists to Homelsnd Security, he’s constantly tweeting racist shit. If state sanctioned persecution doesn’t look like what he’s doing, what does it look like?

gyac, Monday, 15 July 2019 17:01 (two months ago) link

I guess it depends on your definition of radical. To me, the notion that the British government would be promising to protect soldiers who’d shot children and used civilians’ skulls as ashtrays might have seemed a touch too far even by the depressing standards of human rights in Northern Ireland, but I’d argue that’s pretty fucking radical bearing in mind the PM before this one apologised & acknowledged that the crimes were crimes.

gyac, Monday, 15 July 2019 17:04 (two months ago) link

Mordy has a talent for speculative fiction and you guys shouldn't suppress it like this.

xyzzzz__, Monday, 15 July 2019 17:06 (two months ago) link

Ah, my mistake. He’s just perfectly calm and idly speculating as he always does.

gyac, Monday, 15 July 2019 17:08 (two months ago) link

My pt is that you could say the same for trumps imminent genocide but ilxors don’t feel compelled to explain how it would actually go down

― Mordy, Monday, July 15, 2019 11:48 AM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

1. gridlock in congress means the right to a hearing within a reasonable time isn't enforced, and the allocation of more immigration judges never happens
2. with the judicial branch's hands tied and a huge backlog, DHS/ICE are told to push their boundaries
3. said agencies have already started aggressively picking up undocumented immigrants who aren't criminal offenders, and have "accidentally" picked up citizens who weren't carrying proof of citizenship -- which is somewhat nebulous in that we don't have a national citizenship card
4. conditions in the camps continue to degrade, judges continue to see fewer people, access to lawyers is further restricted

you could write this all up to left-wing brain worms, especially if you view some of the arrests as fringe cases and not common, but...

untuned mass damper (mh), Monday, 15 July 2019 17:18 (two months ago) link

tbc the left does the same thing to the right where they extrapolate from their first principles and their seeming commitments to all kinds of horrors that the right-wingers themselves would blanch at and of course then the left finds some right-wingers who do want the US to be an ethnostate or liquidate all minorities or whatever horrors so it's easy to see how this thing works. you believe X. i think X would lead to Y. some ppl who vote similarly to you explicitly want Y. consequently you want Y too. maybe the process is more obscure with your friend but i don't think anyone is totally immune to this particular ideology game.

tl;dr = both sides do it

Mazzy Tsar (PBKR), Monday, 15 July 2019 17:23 (two months ago) link

My pt is that you could say the same for trumps imminent genocide but ilxors don’t feel compelled to explain how it would actually go down

― Mordy,

This is better but I'm still uncertain as to which ilxor(s) though! If people are saying things but are unable or unwilling to explain, then yes it falls into this territory too!

you could write this all up to left-wing brain worms, especially if you view some of the arrests as fringe cases and not common, but...

― untuned mass damper (mh),

You could, but the more tangible an argument is, the less abstraction there is, the harder it is to do that. There can be disagreement because there is more there to agree or disagree with, so it becomes less brainwormy. The problem with brainwormed perspectives is so much is hidden or unexpanded on, and its hard work to get whatever is going on in there to come out

anvil, Monday, 15 July 2019 17:27 (two months ago) link

that's fair. if they were planning to kill people systematically, they'd probably be killing more people unsystematically

six different Ferguson activists have been murdered, nearly all in motor vehicles, and several others have been driven off the road, shot at in cars, or had a six-foot python planted in their car

it's not the federal government, but it seems like someone has a system

quelle sprocket damage (sic), Monday, 15 July 2019 17:41 (two months ago) link

yeah those stories were disturbing. i was mostly focusing on government violence and violence towards hispanics, but right-wing extremist violence has certainly been on the rise.

mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili), Monday, 15 July 2019 17:43 (two months ago) link

i don't believe the trump administration is preparing to commit genocide, but im also not sure how different it would look from our current situation if they were preparing to commit genocide.

― mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili)

for fun while i was taking my driving school course i started reading the 3rd edition of adam jones' "genocide, a comprehensive introduction"

it's a really interesting book and i've learned a lot from it even though i've only finished the first chapter (to be fair that first chapter is a 100+ page overview)

some good talk about stuff like "we charge genocide", contested cases, and so on.

fun exercise for the reader: how many of stanton's 10 stages of genocide apply to the trump administration?

http://genocidewatch.net/genocide-2/8-stages-of-genocide/

Un Poco Loco Moco (rushomancy), Tuesday, 16 July 2019 00:26 (two months ago) link

I got to six

the public eating of beans (Sparkle Motion), Tuesday, 16 July 2019 06:17 (two months ago) link

more geared towards engaging with teh olds, but:

What To Do If The Older People In Your Life Are Sharing False Or Extreme Content

bookmarkflaglink (sleeve), Monday, 29 July 2019 17:27 (one month ago) link

lol at John Cusack, 53, exemplifying this scourge

The Ravishing of ROFL Stein (Hadrian VIII), Monday, 29 July 2019 17:33 (one month ago) link

“There's a good chance your family member doesn't understand that and might be horrified at what they're sharing. And so there’s a point to intervene and let people know, ‘Hey, I know, this was probably not what you meant, but…’”

uh

Brad C., Monday, 29 July 2019 17:43 (one month ago) link

not a bad article by any means, but it doesn't really address old people sharing hateful shit because they're friends with other old people who like hateful shit

(nb I am old)

Brad C., Monday, 29 July 2019 17:50 (one month ago) link

“There's a good chance your family member doesn't understand that and might be horrified at what they're sharing. And so there’s a point to intervene and let people know, ‘Hey, I know, this was probably not what you meant, but…’”

my dad is like "you're right, i can't believe i accidentally shared this information about all the people on welfare in washington DC who received free "Obamaphones" in 2009 in a free giveaway on a street corner, which i totally saw, no i swear i saw it and heard about it, it happened. instead, what i meant to share is this more important information about how i heard a muslim in minneapolis is married to 8 women and no one will do anything about it because of political correctness. thank you son"

Karl Malone, Monday, 29 July 2019 17:54 (one month ago) link

he fit all that in a tweet?

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 29 July 2019 17:55 (one month ago) link

twitter character limit is now 280?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvnUOevwsKw

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 29 July 2019 17:57 (one month ago) link

my dad prefers to send me these kind of messages via unexpected handwritten letters which close, "I love you my son"

Karl Malone, Monday, 29 July 2019 18:03 (one month ago) link

Karl sonned in a paternal love beef?

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 29 July 2019 19:19 (one month ago) link

one month passes...

Here’s an unusual case -
In Scotland, St Andrews, I just saw a guy wearing a ‘Trump 2020 build the wall’ shirt. Now the American students are arriving this week, but this wasn’t them. I know the guy from psychiatric hospital: we’ve been in together a few times. I’ve never known him to speak. No idea what to do there.

Bidh boladh a' mhairbh de 'n láimh fhalaimh (dowd), Tuesday, 3 September 2019 13:27 (two weeks ago) link

I should have talked to him. Asked if he knows what the hard right does to people like us.

Bidh boladh a' mhairbh de 'n láimh fhalaimh (dowd), Tuesday, 3 September 2019 13:35 (two weeks ago) link

I would say anyone in Uk wearing a Trump 2020 shirt is purely. looking for reaction and don't give it to them or say "Oh I love that guy.too"

Sounds like your guy might be a different case though, if he's never speaking? Is it possible he's just wearing it for no other reason than he was given it?

anvil, Monday, 9 September 2019 10:19 (one week ago) link

It’s hard to say. He certainly does talk to people - it’s just that the times I’ve met him have been in hospital and he hasn’t spoken, dealing with a schizophrenic episode.

I think if I see him wearing it again I’ll engage and suggest that it might upset people.

Bidh boladh a' mhairbh de 'n láimh fhalaimh (dowd), Wednesday, 11 September 2019 11:43 (one week ago) link

One of the interesting things about younger trans people is that a lot of them do come from an alt-right background. I'd say that I've seen enough people with abuse, trauma, and/or mental illness issues who either support Trump or else say other alt-rightish things, dunk on other marginalized groups, that I'd hesitate even calling your case "unusual", at least here in America.

In a one on one environment I don't know what you can do, honestly. You can talk to him, but what's the clinical symptom they keep evaluating us on? "Insight"? A lot of us are bad at that, maybe he is too. Healing people who say and do things like this - and maybe it is a defense mechanism, maybe it is to keep people away - is a long process, it takes work and patience and, honestly, immersion in a healing environment where every time they say or do something cruel and hateful what they're doing is pointed out to them. One conversation, as long as you take sufficient precautions that it doesn't hurt you, might be part of that process, but you are a vulnerable person and your first priority needs to be to keep yourself safe.

sock fingering, baby (rushomancy), Wednesday, 11 September 2019 12:50 (one week ago) link

It might be best just to ask him! just in a striking up conversation, in passing way. You don't actually have to say anything yourself on first conversation, just listen!

anvil, Wednesday, 11 September 2019 14:06 (one week ago) link

We think of situations rationally, or "rationally". Trump is a good case, we put people in boxes marked "economic anxiety", "racism", "manipulated", "family upbringing", and this probably covers the bulk of people, but there will be people out there with the strangest of reasons, reason you would never get if you had 50 guesses

anvil, Wednesday, 11 September 2019 14:09 (one week ago) link

All those boxes sort of bleed into each other as well, and not in a neat and precise venn diagram way.

sock fingering, baby (rushomancy), Wednesday, 11 September 2019 15:11 (one week ago) link


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