is New York City dead?

A little hard to believe that cramped-up looking house is over 2300 sf.

including all the floors?

just looks like a living floor and a bedroom floor to me. Basements and attics usually don't count toward sf.

Yeah I don't see how those floors could be 1,100 sf each. I think they're cheating and counting the basement - note that the "total structure area" and "total interior livable area" are both 2,332 sf.

My partner and I are talking a lot about leaving the city these days. Big mix of reasons, but an important one is totally "what's ultimately possible for us, housing/neighborhood-wise?" The universe of people who can even think about buying million-dollar houses is so so so removed from our experience. At the moment we just feel fortunate that we've landed on a railroad we can afford, in a building we like, with a landlady who grew up in the building, still lives downstairs, and keeps everything really shipshape.

Right. Like how can it be that there’s no change in demand for NYC apartments?

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, March 22, 2022 8:39 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is what happens when the population grows by 12% over 20 years and the number of housing units grows by 8%. 2020 was an aberration. my wife and i spent a lot of 2020 talking about how we would move back and rent in like tribeca or nolita without breaking a sweat. no more.

the hip thing to do in ridgewood right now is to buy a house in glendale, just east of here. glendale is a benighted trumpy neighborhood of single family houses with shared driveways and 15-minute-minimum walks to the train. fixer-uppers are listed at 850k and go for more.

xpost right. also, that 8% has to be very disproportionately comprised of:

(A) super super super-high-end units in a comparatively small number of ultra-luxury skyscrapers for the 1% of the 1%
(B) super high-end units in a larger number of still quite fancy skyscrapers, and/or high-design mid-rise buildings
(C) not-all-that-nice units in a mushrooming number of badly-built, boxy mid-rise units, which are marketed as "luxury" anyway. despite bad construction and dubious, unlivable floor plans, these can be easily rented to 25-year-old graphic designers who will accept $1000+ for a room just big enough to hold a bed, in order to hold down a job which will barely allow them to keep up with that rent and with massive student loan payments, in the name of "experience" and "opportunity."

at the same time, large numbers of adequate or great units in older buildings are being lost to rapid gentrification ---- typically being renovated to the look, feel, and floorplans of category C, in order to pack in more people and bump up the rents on each of them. so tons of viable housing stock has effectively been disappearing or going up in price. i would not be surprised if someone did a comprehensive study of the city's pool of working- and middle-class housing and found that more was lost in the 2010s than the 1970s.

Yeah, I know some "hipsters" (non-pejorative use) i.e. RISD art school folks who work in animation or whatever, designers and such, who've made the move to Glendale. Recently recommended it to someone looking to move back to NYC from Boston and who misses Brooklyn. Personally as someone who's lived in Woodside for 15+ years, I'm more a fan of these neighborhoods further north. Feel less beholden to Brooklyn. Until recently there were deals in parts of Woodside and Sunnyside, at least cheaper than parts of north brooklyn. Better deals may be found a bit further west in Elmhurst and Corona.

I've assumed Glendale would be going that way for a number of years now due to the presence of Finback Brewery.

xxxp, definitely. truly new units are bigger (people want more space), and that means not only are there less of them being built, but they "have" to be more expensive to pencil out (which raises rents). at the same time as being bigger, new units also have fewer bedrooms per sq ft (are you a family? sorry!), which also places pressure on rentals. and at the same time as that!, old units are being merged, which also raises average rents.

i mean the problem is not terrible relative to the west coast, but it's pretty bad!

i haven't lived in new york for 15 years and whenever i daydream about moving back i realize i would have to learn entirely new neighborhoods from scratch. because the ones i lived in and hung out in are just totally out of my reach now. maybe it's always this way? i sort of mourn that. it's a life that has passed out of possibility.

Forest Hills, where we lived for 8 years, doesn't seem like it ever goes completely crazy. It's one of the few places that just sort of stays middle to professional class, where the bargain is you get an affordable-by-city-standards life and an ok standard of living if you're just willing to tolerate being somewhere kinda boring.

if i ever get priced out of astoria (has yet to happen, fingers crossed) deep queens is my destination (assuming it's still affordable). i love forest hills

colonize staten island

I just find Forest Hills too boring compared my precious Woodside and Sunnyside. But this is talk for the Queens thread I guess.

there's some nice places in that part of forest hills just north of metropolitan by eddie's sweet shop--not fh gardens, but a few streets of single families with decent yards in nice condition. still a million bucks a pop.

the glendale thing is like... ridgewood is as non-urban as we're willing to go while paying these wild prices. next step is probably a co-op in jackson heights or out of nyc entirely.

compared to Forest Hills, which is so much further out, the stretch of Sunnyside-Woodside-Jackson Heights just has so much more to offer, food-wise at least. I guess that's how I judge everything.

It's def more boring foodwise. No question. Our group of friends there had a running joke about restaurants being "Forest Hills Good" vs actually good.

That said, when we left a couple of years ago there was a sort of spillover from Flushing starting to happen and we had gotten a few legit dumpling and noodle shops and such.

Jersey City Heights used to be a place to escape to but not sure if it's still as affordable as it used to be vs. deeper into BK/Queens etc.

there's some nice places in that part of forest hills just north of metropolitan by eddie's sweet shop--not fh gardens, but a few streets of single families with decent yards in nice condition. still a million bucks a pop.

the glendale thing is like... ridgewood is as non-urban as we're willing to go while paying these wild prices. next step is probably a co-op in jackson heights or out of nyc entirely.

― adam, Tuesday, March 22, 2022 1:25 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I def feel like there's a point at which you're just kind of in the suburbs anyway and might as well be in the suburbs. I guess parts of glendale are walkable to interesting parts of ridgewood at least, but transit access is generally not great and I don't find the area too charming. The areas I really don't get are the ones further out in Queens that don't even really have subways, they just kind of feel like shitty overpriced suburbs.

at least they're note technically long island! I have friends in douglaston.

Jersey City is beyond insane now. Sister's lived at Grove st stop for 20+ years and has to get out. It's like Brooklyn and Hoboken on steroids.

Yeah, we lived by the Grove stop years ago (circa 2003-2008). I went back recently to meet with friends for drinks, and that exactly. It was like the explosive development of Williamsburg with a vibe closer to Hoboken. I have to assume JC Heights got substantially more expensive as a result of the spillover. Back then we had a handful of friends who all moved to the Heights when it was cheap (I want to say you could get a good house for like $250-300k?). Good on them.

the 7 train is the undisputed best train in terms of good food availability, any of those neighborhoods are your best bet for livable NYC neighborhoods now imo.

ridgewood is boring but we have a nice community here of fellow yupster parents.

the deep queens no-train hoods are full of weird and fascinating stuff. douglaston is nice, love alley pond park. bayside is super nice, lots of great food along bell blvd, plus there's a LIRR stop. floral park has mumbai xpress, home of the best grilled cheese sandwich in nyc.

So that's the thing, Grove St JC is definitely getting a Williamsburg effect happening, but the vibe is way less sports bar than Hoboken for sure. It's the epicenter of that development/transformation so it is going to have prices that reflect that. JC heights on the other hand has been another story, but I haven't checked prices in the last year or so.

I've lived in Forest Hills, Bayside and Astoria as well as LI and Astoria was actually my least favorite in many ways. Doubt if I could afford any of those spots now. When I lived in Forest Hills we actually walked to Jackson Heights for dinner a bunch of times. It's not exactly a desert.

Qnz east of Flushing has a suburban character to an extent but it's not really the burbs and it's really a far cry from much of LOng Island in terms of diversity or inclusivit. Even neighborhoods like Douglaston that feel a little Trumpy. That's a pretty big deal, honestly. There are lots of places in LI where i really feel like an alien as a brown queer person.

Does anyone else consider moving uptown/the Bronx? I think I only pop up here to say "I live in the Bronx" every few months, but it's nice. It's affordable. I can see midtown (in the winter), I'm right on the Botanical Gardens, a couple blocks from the subway, in an art deco building with a sunken living room. There's so much Brooklyn/Queens talk in this thread, but irl I know at least a decent group of people who have migrated to upper Manhattan or the Bronx and left the western tip of Long Island behind.

But... I will probably never go to Brooklyn again in my life.

I think maybe the Bronx is the last place a regular person could buy an apartment in New York? On a subway line? For less than 250k?

just in case i haven't said this recently: my wife & I rent a two bedroom/2 bath apartment in clinton hill. it's a nice apartment with a lot of sun and lots of space, closets etc. if we were not rent stabilized we could not afford it at all. the other unit on our floor rents for more than double what we pay. (our rent is affordable but not cheap cheap)

Yeah I took over my dad's rent stabilized lease in Morningside Heights when he died and there's no way I could afford it otherwise. I'd probably be in Riverdale if i didn't have a rent stabilized lease just b/c it's one of the few places I could still afford (last time i checked, maybe not anymore lol)

I don't know about the bronx being the only place, I'm sure there are deals in Corona and Elmhurst?

Corona does seem like it would be an awesome place to live. No idea if affordable or not.

Corona did not seem as cheap as I expected when I researched it a few years ago, although certainly cheap by NYC standards. Def seems like a nice place to live with Flushing Meadows park so close.

I think maybe the Bronx is the last place a regular person could buy an apartment in New York? On a subway line? For less than 250k?

― chinavision!, Tuesday, March 22, 2022 4:21 PM (thirty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

You can get coops for this (studios or MAYBE 1BRs) in parts of queens, but most likely in a coop so you have to factor in the high monthly maint fees.

I used to live in riverdale. Nice, quiet, cheap, but very limited nightlife / walkability and a lonnnnnnng ride to midtown.

oh I'm in a coop, but the maintenance is cheap (mortgage + maintenance is less than rent in this neighborhood). from what I've seen, similar units in parts of queens (1 bedroom) are in fact much much smaller, due to the proliferation of post-war construction. pre-war (1930s in this case) seems to allot much more space for a foyer, dining area, etc., plus 'top floor, city view, on the park, 2 blocks from the subway' would I think increase the price somewhat more in other boroughs.

I will probably never go to Brooklyn again in my life.

― chinavision!

Yeah I'm at a similar stage of life

tempted to post this on the queens thread instead but it follows up from this...had a great Queens weekend (except for some fussiness at times from the 5 year old) which involved going to Maspeth on saturday afternoon for a friend's art opening. There's a super cool art gallery called Mrs https://www.mrsgallery.com/ in the middle of residential Maspeth. Not anywhere near a train. We parked down the street and immediately found ourselves across from an amazing Polish market that had hot dishes, tons of in-house sausages and pickles and all kinds of products. There's also a few excellent peruvian spots so we picked up some ceviche for dinner. This polish market is an 11 minute drive from my place in Woodside.

And sunday got food from the AMAZING Bolivian Llama Party in sunnyside. Also just learned about a sunday only nexican restaurant that takes place in somebody's backyard a few blocks from my house.

So yeah, Queens isn't dead at least.

Sounds fun. I always wonder about little places like that (the gallery etc) that pop up in the middle of those residential queens areas that are kind of middle class and don't have tons of commercial space nearby, like will they survive? It's hard for me to imagine Maspeth/Glendale/Fresh Pond/Middle Village being "the next Ridgewood" because they are already not all that cheap and don't seem like they offer a lot of spaces for the kinds of businesses the ridgewick crowd would want.

we had a good queens weekend too!

we went to the queens theatre (next to the museum) to get the 4-year-old some culture, ie a lightly psychedelic fiberoptic-suited tortoise and the hare performance, then ran around the park for a while. the weekend flushing meadows volleyball and cookout scene was unaffected by the unseasonable weather. then we got Perfectly Fine Italian Food from a the Perfectly Fine Italian Place around the corner from us.

those polish markets are so good at steam table food, there's one by me (hetman deli) with unbelievably large and good cutlets and a pungent carrot salad that i eat by the pint.

bolivian llama party rules, i haven't been to the sunnyside one (which took over from another good bolivian spot) but the one that was in the columbus circle subway station was great.

i live half a block from fresh pond and the yupster stuff has made it as far as forest ave, two blocks east of here. there's one evil real estate developer who's made it his mission to bring the washed concrete and houseplant aesthetic to ridgewood and he's slowly winning.

plus, i mean, i'm here and i'm definitely a middle class boho dickhead.

I feel like, for a lot of people, the coronavirus / WFH has made the boroughs more distinct and cut off. I live in Brooklyn, and have been to Manhattan twice in the past two years. Once for a doctor's appointment, once to take my kid to the Natural History museum.

The gallery's been there for a while. They own the building and live upstairs, and make art there as well. I'm sure if they were just renting and expecting to make a living as a gallery in a neighborhood like that it wouldn't be so easy. It's very nice though and my friend Rose's show is fantastic in any case.

Anyway the reason none of those neighborhoods will ever be the net ridgewood is because they don't have subway access. That's always been key. And there's always been outliers. I don't know, I suppose if an art community can grow in Red Hook it can happen anywhere, but they had cheap spaces, and the waterfront vibe, for a long time.

There's actually tons of industrial space in woodside. When I moved here 15 years ago I thought it'd be great to get space and thought it'd be affordable but it wasn't...every HVAC, car repair, printer etc that wanted industrial space close to manhattan and on a bunch of highways knew this was a good spot and it was priced accordingly. But maybe due to pandemic or other forces...there's TONS of empty spaces, which I'm sure people will sit on forever. It sucks, walking by all these rent signs on big industrial spaces. Could be so much cool light industry here. Bring us an Industry City!

Of course there's that weird thing in sunnyside now where the evil guy from Uber started a chain of ghost kitchen buildings, which is a good idea.

Nice accounts, y'all! I was actually enjoying a sunny Queens Saturday the previous weekend - took the bus to Maspeth (by which means it's a very short jaunt from Bushwick), and hiked from there to Elmhurst, Corona and Jackson Heights, plus a sunset stop in Sunnyside. The actual premise was knocking incredibly minor buildings off my architecture to-do list, but it was really just an excuse to be out pounding the pavement and taking in the neighborhoods. Beautiful time all throughout, people out enjoying the weather, street market on Junction Boulevard thronging with activity, etc.

Dan, where'd you get the ceviche? That would be a selling point for my partner to join me next time going over there.

Mama Pio in Maspeth. Really nice little place. I wonder about the history of peruvian restaurants in NYC. It seems like there's dozens that are basically knock-offs of Pio Pio, who's main location in Jackson Heights is like a football field of families having feasts. I've gotten that same kind of peruvian ceviche at these places, with the leche de tigre and the sweet potato and big hominy and crunchy corn and onions and I really can't get enough of it. Plus the rotisserie chicken at these places is simply the best. I remember reading that Pio Pio marinated theirs in beer and tamarind. There's a place in sunnyside that used to be called Pio Riko and is now just Riko and it's fine but nowhere near as good as Pio Pio. This Mama Pio is maybe as good or better than Pio Pio.

My funny Pio Pio story is the first time we went I didnt know what to get and I ordered the Matador Combo thinking, well, that seems kinda expensive at 28 dollars but a combo seems like a good way to go. Then they brought out the food and I realized it was like for an entire family. A half chicken. A giant plate of tostones. Rice and Beans. Salchipapas (the french fries and hot dog combo), an avocado salad etc etc.

That sounds delicious, thank you dan!

Lol at Pio Pio ordering snafu.

I just found a picture of the matador combo. Imagine me at a small table with my then girlfriend, who ordered a fried cevice (jalea) and I get this:

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/10/21/30/95/matador-combo.jpg

And that's 42 dollars now.

When I went the first time about 15 years ago it was 28.

Cheap at any price.

This doesn't seem good in the long-term: "A Casino Atop Saks? Lobbyists Push for Manhattan Gambling Site"