Abolish the Police

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hey

bamcquern, Thursday, 26 October 2017 22:08 (two years ago) link

Chapo Trap House and the rise of the dirtbag left

previous thread starts there

bamcquern, Thursday, 26 October 2017 22:09 (two years ago) link

Once you abolish them, how do you keep them abolished?

A is for (Aimless), Friday, 27 October 2017 00:18 (two years ago) link

using the military, of course

bob lefse (rushomancy), Friday, 27 October 2017 00:19 (two years ago) link

policing should not be abolished

federal standards of policing should be established and enforced via funding. the department of transportation has done wonders for getting EMTs all to similar levels of competence across the country.

El Tomboto, Friday, 27 October 2017 00:21 (two years ago) link

Federal standards would be useful, possibly even great, but totally impossible in the current political climate. Or in any political climate I've seen in my lifetime. Or that I've read about in US history. Or that I can imagine occurring before I die.

A is for (Aimless), Friday, 27 October 2017 00:28 (two years ago) link

i support the concept, but human beings like to persecute each other violently

also it's the end of the world

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, 27 October 2017 00:31 (two years ago) link

is human beings persecuting each other violently referring to the police or non-police?

assawoman bay (harbl), Friday, 27 October 2017 00:47 (two years ago) link

how did everything on my ilx become tinier when i clicked this thread

assawoman bay (harbl), Friday, 27 October 2017 00:47 (two years ago) link

both, all, etc xp

i'd abolish the motherfucking goddamn US military murder machine first tho

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Friday, 27 October 2017 00:49 (two years ago) link

i think the police should be abolished but it should be done in a very slow and secretive manner to stop everyone from doing crimes *because* there are no police

assawoman bay (harbl), Friday, 27 October 2017 00:54 (two years ago) link

People who carry weapons as a hobby should probably be abolished before we abolish the professions where people sometimes carry guns

El Tomboto, Friday, 27 October 2017 01:20 (two years ago) link

Reminds me of a reddit thread where some dude was weighing the pro et contra arguments re: the 2nd amendment and leaning slightly toward more control before suddenly concluding, without the faintest trace of irony, that no matter which side of the fence you're on, the fact that guns are fun is so utterly undeniable that all other considerations are irrelevant, confirming the farseeing wisdom of the Founding Fathers™.

pomenitul, Friday, 27 October 2017 01:34 (two years ago) link

Oh, really

El Tomboto, Friday, 27 October 2017 01:37 (two years ago) link

policing involves a lot of activities that don't involve brutal, nay fatal, violence. And policing has been part of civilization since BCE2K and earlier, probably. if we follow Bardach's Eightfold Path, we're hardly into step 3 - "construct some alternatives." If we want to reform the business that is policing, we have to figure out who should do it, and what institutions should define how it is done.

El Tomboto, Saturday, 28 October 2017 00:16 (two years ago) link

five months pass...

#NoCopAcademy still holding it down at Chicago City Hall pic.twitter.com/45zKClRmdI

— Sarah Lazare (@sarahlazare) March 28, 2018

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 28 March 2018 20:13 (two years ago) link

two years pass...

This is a good piece on Hong Kong protestor efforts:

https://lausan.hk/2019/how-to-abolish-the-hong-kong-police/

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 2 June 2020 16:31 (one month ago) link

Abolish the police.

all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, 2 June 2020 21:18 (one month ago) link

otm

dip to dup (rob), Tuesday, 2 June 2020 21:29 (one month ago) link

do it yesterday. i am losing my mind at ppl who think this dumbass eight is enough plan or whatever the fuck it's called is anything. how do i get off the internet.

contorted filbert (harbl), Friday, 5 June 2020 15:49 (one month ago) link

liberals are convinced that they can turn the police into nice boys who really care for the people they are funneling into the prison industrial complex

methinks dababy doth bop shit too much (m bison), Friday, 5 June 2020 15:51 (one month ago) link

but if cops had to announce "i'm going to shoot you" before they shot you, maybe that would be your ticket to heaven. it would CHANGE. EVERYTHING.

contorted filbert (harbl), Friday, 5 June 2020 15:53 (one month ago) link

i just remembered one time deray mckesson was speaking at a conference i was at, and i knew there was no one i could talk to who would understand why he sucks, so i went to get a pastrami sandwich and came back when it was over

contorted filbert (harbl), Friday, 5 June 2020 15:54 (one month ago) link

How was the sandwich

all cats are beautiful (silby), Friday, 5 June 2020 15:54 (one month ago) link

it was great, i want another

contorted filbert (harbl), Friday, 5 June 2020 15:57 (one month ago) link

I prefer the defund/shrink approach to abolish. There is a bad historical meme going around now that policing originated with slave patrols, which is sort of a distorted half-truth. Societies of all kinds have always had some form of policing or other. Ours is clearly bloated, hyper-militarized and racist and needs to be radically reduced and changed.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:09 (one month ago) link

Abolish the uniform guys, retain parking enforcement and grizzled detectives hiding hearts of gold under their gruff exteriors

all cats are beautiful (silby), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:11 (one month ago) link

Societies of all kinds have always had some form of policing or other.

citation needed

sleeve, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:15 (one month ago) link

it is not relevant to me whether the origin was in slave patrols. we can keep kurt wallander around to solve violent crimes, and we can keep all the stars of parking wars. everyone else has to go.

contorted filbert (harbl), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:26 (one month ago) link

oh, so you mean "modern civilization" not the hundreds of thousands of years of hunter gatherers, OK.

IMO that history shows the problems that resulted from the "first fence" more than anything:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/560830.My_Name_is_Chellis_and_I_m_in_Recovery_from_Western_Civilization

sleeve, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:36 (one month ago) link

not only is it broadly modern civilization but it's far from a continuous history and most police forces in their modern organization, powers and tactics aren't much older than the mid 19th century

on the other hand even if they were ordained by god in the garden of Eden abolish the fuckers

hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:38 (one month ago) link

oh ok so we should build a neoprimitive society with 7 billion people on the planet, that should go well

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:39 (one month ago) link

well the 19th century was when much of the world's population urbanized

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:40 (one month ago) link

this isn't a reformist thread

NV otm

they are agents of capital and should be shown no remorse or mercy

sleeve, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:40 (one month ago) link

as i said, the police as constituted today are very much a function of the capitalist societies that introduced them, form something else by all means but the police institutions we have were rotten at conception

hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:41 (one month ago) link

and they don't keep us safe, either

sleeve, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:41 (one month ago) link

this seems as good a place as any to vent: my local solidarity rally tomorrow is not allowing anti-police signs. I wish them the best with it but I'm going to pass. Small city in Canada.

maffew12, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:41 (one month ago) link

there's probably other threads for cautiously liking the police tbf

hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:42 (one month ago) link

Without first dismantling capitalism, there's no practical difference between abolishing the police and privatising it.

I don't think short-term commitment to abolition can be used as a gatekeeping device for conversations about how to move forward from where we are now.

ShariVari, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:43 (one month ago) link

it is true that we must first seize the means of production before the withering away of the state can occur

contorted filbert (harbl), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:46 (one month ago) link

anyway the specific bone of contention was that the police are not a natural offshoot of the state of nature who must always be with us as sinful fallen humans

hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:49 (one month ago) link

thank you, yes that is what I was saying

sleeve, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:50 (one month ago) link

You know that old canard, "It's easy to criticize the police but you'll soon change your tune when you actually need them"? Well, I think I've said it here before but whenever I've actually needed the police - break-ins, muggings etc - they have proved to be completely useless and generally given the impression they couldn't give a flying fuck.

Captain Beeftweet (Tom D.), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:50 (one month ago) link

Add laziness and ineptitude to their list of sins.

Captain Beeftweet (Tom D.), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:51 (one month ago) link

here here, NV. I will have to work to have this discussion more, locally, soon.

maffew12, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:53 (one month ago) link

ok just spitballing here but what if we abolished the police

k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:54 (one month ago) link

hm interesting expand on that

all cats are beautiful (silby), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:54 (one month ago) link

the first time i got burgled the first 15 minutes of interaction with the cops was persuading them we hadn't done it ourselves cos we lived on a "bad" estate

hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:54 (one month ago) link

love to burgle myself

k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Friday, 5 June 2020 17:00 (one month ago) link

Today in Charlotte cops arrested people who were providing support to protesters who were released from jail. Adding this to the list of reasons to #DefundThePolice. pic.twitter.com/xXyBgLHUPR

— nyc law grrrl (@nyclawgrrrl) June 19, 2020

xyzzzz__, Friday, 19 June 2020 09:26 (three weeks ago) link

Heard yesterdfay that there are police in a lot of schools in Scotland thanks to the way that a fund that was supposed to be helping with poverty etc was handled.

Also that at least one school in Richmond California managed to get rid of SROs in their school or at least the process is underway.

Stevolende, Friday, 19 June 2020 09:50 (three weeks ago) link

Thanks for posting that xyz. I got lost in the story and looking up more about it, and by the time posted about it on the police brutality thread I forgot that I saw it on ILX first.

So fucked up, attacking the people who are there to do the work that the state refuses to do

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Friday, 19 June 2020 16:01 (three weeks ago) link

Let's face it though, how many countless times has this happened in the past?

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Thursday, 25 June 2020 20:12 (two weeks ago) link

KL - no worries.

Seeing how these protests (however brutal for the participants) are having a positive impact (on policy and some of the primaries) is a wonderful thing to see.

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 25 June 2020 20:15 (two weeks ago) link

Don't know the city, but a video is circulating on FB of a line of cops unloading their guns on a seated homeless guy. I didn't have the stomach for the audio.

k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Thursday, 25 June 2020 21:18 (two weeks ago) link

thought that said abolish the RHCP at first and was about to otm you

I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Thursday, 25 June 2020 23:33 (two weeks ago) link

why not both?

Anti-Cop Ponceortium (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 25 June 2020 23:42 (two weeks ago) link

272 uniformed NYPD cops have filed for retirement from the day of #GeorgeFloyd’s death to June 25. That’s 49% more than retired this time last year.

In other words, protesters will lower the NYPD headcount before Mayor de Blasio or the NYC Council does. https://t.co/1lVnbRGWCB

— Ash J (@AshAgony) June 27, 2020

xyzzzz__, Saturday, 27 June 2020 19:53 (two weeks ago) link

Don't know the city, but a video is circulating on FB of a line of cops unloading their guns on a seated homeless guy. I didn't have the stomach for the audio.

― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), T

I don't have FB, but I think this is Albuquerque and possibly two years ago iirc. Though of course, its entirely likely you're talking about a different broad daylight filmed execution

anvil, Saturday, 27 June 2020 21:32 (two weeks ago) link

they voted to take steps towards putting a measure on the ballot that would amend the city charter to replace the fuzz. I have no idea if it'll pass, but I'm eager to vote for it.

Dan I., Sunday, 28 June 2020 02:15 (two weeks ago) link

https://www.thecut.com/2020/06/protesters-say-aurora-pd-used-force-at-elijah-mcclain-vigil.html

URL is misleading, Aurora PD definitely used force

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 1 July 2020 17:12 (one week ago) link

pic.twitter.com/IMhLkrIGrc

— Noname (@noname) July 2, 2020

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 2 July 2020 19:15 (one week ago) link

love it

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 2 July 2020 19:38 (one week ago) link

That's a compelling piece. I think the question I have is: why isn't the movement to fix the things that make the police necessary instead of to focus on abolishing the police? I don't need to abolish the police in my neighborhood, because they aren't a problem in my neighborhood, because my neighborhood has the resources it needs to begin with - I don't live down the street from a chemical plant, there are job opportunities for people like me, our housing isn't crumbling, we have access to groceries, etc.

I know the movement answer, because it gets repeated ad nasueum: take all the money from police budgets and fund the other stuff. But there isn't *anywhere close* to enough money in police budgets to fund all the other stuff that you would need to make the police superfluous. Even Alex Vitale acknowledges this. Police are a woefully inadequate and at times harmful means of controlling the damage from racial and class inequality, but they are not the primary cause of the racial and class inequality imo.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 16:22 (six days ago) link

yeah unfortunately we gotta defund the military too

mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Monday, 6 July 2020 16:24 (six days ago) link

"abolish capitalism" a bit more of a stretch goal imo

k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 6 July 2020 16:25 (six days ago) link

why isn't the movement to fix the things that make the police necessary instead of to focus on abolishing the police? I don't need to abolish the police in my neighborhood, because they aren't a problem in my neighborhood

because police are just the society-facing side of the larger incarceration system, which is racist by design. in poor black neighborhoods, police routinely drive in and search all the young black men. it's routine - the people often just raise their arms and surrender as soon as the cops show up, because they know what's about to happen. of course you don't see it from that angle - police aren't a problem in your neighborhood

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 6 July 2020 16:28 (six days ago) link

my whole point is that police aren't a problem in my neighborhood *because* my neighborhood has resources, is not poor, etc.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 16:29 (six days ago) link

Because it's almost as though police don't cause poverty, they are just there to manage it

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 16:30 (six days ago) link

I mean, South Africa has underfunded police and high poverty. The result is that there's a booming private security industry, which is probably even less accountable than police.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 16:32 (six days ago) link

it's almost like there are dozens of things that need to be abolished or at least fundamentally rethought and this is the one people are talking about because there's urgency and movement behind it specifically

k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 6 July 2020 16:33 (six days ago) link

is anyone proposing "abolish the police but explicitly do not change anything else"

k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 6 July 2020 16:34 (six days ago) link

my whole point is that police aren't a problem in my neighborhood *because* my neighborhood has resources, is not poor, etc.

and my point is that "abolish the police" is not about your neighborhood. because your neighborhood has resources, and is not poor, etc.

the daily reality for so many people is getting hassled by the police and entering the incarceration system by their early 20s, then losing their civic rights and being at a disadvantage for the rest of their lives.

it is possible to defund/abolish the police and immediately address the problems that are *caused* by the police, and simultaneously try to address the much longer-term problems of poverty (partly _caused_ by the police - not in your neighborhood, i agree, but in many other neighborhoods) at the same time

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:22 (six days ago) link

Because it's almost as though police don't cause poverty, they are just there to manage it

the whole tone of this makes it clear that you're not talking about the same police

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:23 (six days ago) link

they should really have different names. there are cops for white people and then cops for everyone else. they serve different purposes.

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:23 (six days ago) link

that's why the "national conversation" goes nowhere. people aren't even talking about the same things, and white people (generally) still don't believe in the idea of racist cops who make hassling poc a part of their daily routine

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:24 (six days ago) link

'abolishing the police wouldn't fix the things that make the police necessary, the money from the police wouldn't be enough to fix the things that the police make necessary, therefore…'

man alive, what do you think the conclusion to your argument is?

j., Monday, 6 July 2020 17:31 (six days ago) link

"abolish capitalism" a bit more of a stretch goal imo

defund capitalism

The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:32 (six days ago) link

my man

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:34 (six days ago) link

Also, while police are not the root or primary cause of poverty, the carceral system they belong to--including bail, asset seizures, the inescapable cascading of fines, prisoners being paid pennies, and as Karl noted incarceration's lifelong negative effects on employment--does cause or at least maintain poverty for many individuals

rob, Monday, 6 July 2020 17:35 (six days ago) link

'abolishing the police wouldn't fix the things that make the police necessary, the money from the police wouldn't be enough to fix the things that the police make necessary, therefore…'

man alive, what do you think the conclusion to your argument is?

― j., Monday, 6 July 2020 17:31 (ten minutes ago) link

That the priority should be to fund the things that make the police less necessary, which also happen to be politically popular, rather than focusing on abolishing the police, which is politically unpopular and will not address the underlying problems that police are there to brutally and hamfistedly try to manage (fwiw I 100% agree with rob -- but those things are addressed by ending bail, ending asset seizures, ending cascading fines, ending prisoners being paid pennies, and reducing incarceration, none of which actually require *abolishing* the police).

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:44 (six days ago) link

strenuous advocacy for unpopular things both makes them more popular over time and provides cover for more popular things to happen, also the police should be abolished.

all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:47 (six days ago) link

We're just posting after all, not prioritizing. Let bureaucrats and legislatures prioritize.

all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:47 (six days ago) link

that's why the "national conversation" goes nowhere. people aren't even talking about the same things, and white people (generally) still don't believe in the idea of racist cops who make hassling poc a part of their daily routine

― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, July 6, 2020 1:24 PM (forty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

re: the latter -- evidence suggests a lot more of them do now!

like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Monday, 6 July 2020 18:09 (six days ago) link

yep! hopefully that will continue. but still, i think when white people think of police the dominant narrative is still a norman rockwell painting version

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 6 July 2020 18:39 (six days ago) link

man alive, what about all of the problems that police CAUSE? and by “problems” i mean murder and life-altering harrassment? do we just need to wait on that until we get to the other things on your list?

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 6 July 2020 19:09 (six days ago) link

the police in well-off neighborhoods are not different people. they just happen to have their posts there. they aren't a problem for the residents, or the people they perceive to be residents, but they are a problem for "outsiders" because they are meant to keep those people out. they do plenty of bad stuff when you aren't looking.

contorted filbert (harbl), Monday, 6 July 2020 19:26 (six days ago) link

For whatever it is that replaces the police, I prefer the name Meatspace Moderators to Community Care Workers.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 6 July 2020 19:58 (six days ago) link

man alive's Municipal Bouncers is still one of my favorite ideas

all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, 6 July 2020 20:01 (six days ago) link

regarding high schools, this is an interesting short read: the perspective of a student on going to a school full of police, metal detectors, and further security/control/surveillance protocols. not a substitute for reading up on the school-to-prison pipeline etc., but valuable IMO.

Doctor Casino, Tuesday, 7 July 2020 14:23 (five days ago) link

There are maybe 30 School Safety Agents in the campus, for about 1,000 students. In the middle of periods, when people are switching, all you hear is, “Go to class, go to class, go to class.” You go through the scan, and it’s like, “Take your belt off, take your keys out your pocket.” This is what I had to experience when I went to visit my cousin in jail. I shouldn’t be experiencing this here. It’s just a very prison-like feeling when you’re in school.

I’m the community engagement organizer here at the Rockaway Youth Task Force. Last week I was putting up flyers around school for a meeting on Monday. I got permission, and scissors and tape from my assistant principal because she saw the flyers, she knew I was going to put them up. Next thing I know the School Safety Agent just starts yelling, “Where did you get those scissors from? Give me those scissors.” And I’m like, “Seriously? You’re seeing me use them.” He’s like, “You need to give them to me.” I’m like, “No, I’m not even halfway done, you’re not going to take them.” And he’s like, “Who gave them to you? Who gave them to you? Oh, you shouldn’t have those, you shouldn’t be carrying them like that. Put them into your bag, I don’t want to see them.”

Doctor Casino, Tuesday, 7 July 2020 14:24 (five days ago) link

I didn’t want to go back into the classroom yet because I knew this was going to end badly and I wanted to be a witness. I was fine. I was safe. No one was touching me, they were just fighting with each other. Another boy escaped and started fighting someone else and that’s when my Assistant Principal and Dean — who are both white males, who don’t live in this community — were like, “OK, you know what. I’m tired of this. Call the precinct. They’re getting arrested.” At that point, my teacher literally dragged me into the class. I remember hearing my Assistant Principal say, “Anyone who’s still out here, you’re going to get arrested too.” I started just ranting, “Had this been CJ and Mike,” the two white kids in my class, “they would have just been put in separate rooms. But because it’s them, 30 seconds later there’s five cops walking down, holding their guns, ready to cuff them.” That’s institutional racism, that shouldn’t be happening in our school. You shouldn’t be arrested, you shouldn’t be seeing police. You shouldn’t go through metal detectors when you’re in school, which is an environment where you’re supposed to learn and feel safe and supported.

Doctor Casino, Tuesday, 7 July 2020 14:27 (five days ago) link

thanks for that, passing on to my partner who works in a somewhat more sane but still empty charter school

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 16:18 (five days ago) link


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