Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

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Welcome to the MANCAVE bros! Lol psych, this is for contemplating serious issues NOT raised by the men's rights movement, and also we need to stop hijacking the Weinstein thread for real.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:30 (one year ago) Permalink

this is maybe going to sound incredibly dumb, i'm not trying to be #notallmen or #reversepence, but these days i just don't like to hang out with a group of dudes for a night out, or a party that's all men, etc...the energy weirds me out a lot of the time. most of my friends these days all are couples and we hang out as such, but i have other male friends who will just socialize with THA BOYS and i find when i join them that the conversations just go places i'm not comfortable with a lot of the time, or the vibe is just weird, the balance is all off, etc. i don't like the "men's club" feeling. i don't know.

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:39 AM (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

agree

― mookieproof, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:42 AM (forty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, I totally feel you. I am generally averse to 'dude hangs', particularly 'white dude hangs'. Speaking as a white dude, no demographic is more likely to creep me out than other white dudes.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:43 AM (forty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

same

― brimstead, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:44 AM (forty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think the only time I'm in that situation is at band rehearsal but we aren't all white and we aren't all male so it's only intermittently when there's just a subset of us there. idk it doesn't bother me, there's no assholes in the band lol

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:47 AM (forty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Just don't hang out with assholes imo.

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the classic Max Ophuls film Letter from an Unknown Woman is relevant on this point

Did you see the cuts Harvey demanded?

― Anne of the Thousand Gays (Eric H.), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"That's locker room."

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

men who feel the need to exclude women aren't usually up to anything worthwhile ime

where does the conversation go that makes you uncomfortable? i'll admit to being curious.

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I mean, IDK I haven't had that experience so much. I don't hang out with anyone that much these days, but I get together with a group of guys to play music and it's mostly just talk about music, being a dad, work sucks, and maybe football in which case I tune out.

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:49 AM (forty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Seems like a thread derail anyway.

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:49 AM (forty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

men who feel the need to exclude women aren't usually up to anything worthwhile ime

yeah I think this is the real issue

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:50 AM (forty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I really hate the idea of stag weekends

― good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:51 AM (thirty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

in the future they will figure out a way to lower testosterone in unborn male fetuses. or something like that. i'm an optimist! #scifireader

― scott seward, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:51 AM (thirty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the company i work for has a large salesforce of mostly men . they come into the office from all over the country for training and meetings and want to go out in the City while they are here . I only went once and never again , the worst part was that most of them are married but when they come here it's like they are on some fucking weied free for all, it's horrible .

― (•̪●) (carne asada), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:52 AM (thirty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's disgusting ^^^

it's not the testosterone -- it's the culture
we can change it if we try. y'all have kids. time to destroy the fratriarchy :)

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:54 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I have a great core of friends, no assholes, but one of them keeps gravitating toward these sort of fratty activities. For example, he had his 40th birthday in Vegas, and my wife and were all, who actually does this? (So we decided not to go, since Vegas sucks - sorry, Vegas). The other week he made this half suggestion that we go back, but he added "and this time it should be just the guys!" And another friend of mine basically looked at him funny and said, "why? I like having my wife around." Which is to say I think some guys, even not assholes, sometimes get it in their head that they should do guy things in the most cliched guy way possible, and when a group of dudes, even good dudes, get that in their head, things can escalate into assholetry.

Or, like a different friend around the backyard fire pit the other night, actually take out his acoustic guitar and start strumming (and singing!) rudimentary classic rock songs. Don't do that either!

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:54 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^Harvey would have been a lot better off if he'd just done that tho.

― to fly across the city and find Aerosmith's car (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:00 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah that's my attitude to stag parties, just complete befuddlement. "A pre-wedding party, but no women allowed!" Lol what, no, that sounds fucking terrible and dumb. Where are we going, your treehouse?

― good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:00 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The only all-male context I have in my life right now revolves around the alumni group for my all-male college chorus and even there enough of the guys are married to women that it's rare to have a meetup that is actually all male. (We do have an alumni chorus gig every two years, alternating between West Coast US and Japan, where the rehearsals are all-male but we are also in the middle of an activity so there's no real opportunity for things to go super gross.)

I will say that as a straight guy in this context, there is apparently some intragroup harassment that completely bypasses me; one issue that we've had in getting younger alums involved is apparently a core group of guys in their 60s-70s who make a habit of trying to prey on anyone under 30 who shows up. I knew nothing about this until one of my friends told me some stories about rescue missions he and his partner have gone on to keep things above board.

xp: lol, my wife had her 40th in Vegas, as did one of the guys I mentioned who was cockblocking old predators on the last alumni chorus trip.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:00 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"we can change it if we try. y'all have kids. time to destroy the fratriarchy"

my kids were lucky enough to go to a really kind/loving/progressive school during their formative years and it totally helped form them in a really positive way. they are very quick to cry foul if they see/hear anything unfair/sexist/racist. not everyone gets that opportunity. i wish i'd had that!

― scott seward, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:01 PM (twenty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a core group of guys in their 60s-70s who make a habit of trying to prey on anyone under 30 who shows up.

as someone who used to attend an LGBT church (overwhelmingly white men), this is not an unfamiliar phenomenon to me

― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:03 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I wholly reject the notion that ending toxic masculinity requires men not hanging out in groups together, that seems silly. I've had great groups of male friends where no such toxicity existed. But I'm all for ending what-happens-in-vegas style weekends and frat culture and the like. And there is definitely something to the idea that "good" guys will feel pressured to act in a certain guy way when in these situations. I was at an all-guy work dinner recently that got very close to crossing some lines, but thankfully a senior mgmt guy read the situation and was like "Ok, it's time to go."

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:04 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so happy i don't know what a "stag party" is and have to guess

and yeah i have/have had a lot of friends who are extremely "the boys" mentality. i.e. daydrinking & playing Xbox & doing blow. shit is dark. it's so stupid

― flappy bird, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:05 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

La Lechera -- i guess it's that the conversations turn towards talking about women a lot or relationships in a way that feels a bit retrograde, there's always going to be a bit of that type of flirting w/servers that makes me feel like i'm with a bunch of embarrassing uncles, and it feels kind of gloomy for some reason in a very existential dude way. i can't really explain that latter part, it's more an overall feeling i have. that's probably not a great answer.

it differs from other friends where the couples will hang out and it's just fun and easy and no one has any hangups about the lack of dude nights in that particular circle. though there are times when i'll go hang out with one of those dudes. we just don't get all together as a group to visit the secret world of men, away from the women!

we have a son, and his two oldest friends are girls. and i think that's been more helpful than any advice i could give him. i think he's weirded out by dude energy too, maybe. it's good to err on the side of caution!

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:06 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

as someone who used to attend an LGBT church (overwhelmingly white men), this is not an unfamiliar phenomenon to me

As someone who used to host trivia in the only gay bar in town that attracted a 55+ clientele, me neither. The difference here, though, is that these men were not in positions of power, comparatively speaking. Not excusing, just observing.

― Anne of the Thousand Gays (Eric H.), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:06 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Stag party = bachelor party. If they don't have those where you are, hopefully you can guess from "pre-wedding party for men" xp

― good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:07 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

xxxxp yeah man alive otm, ya gotta call em as ya see em. Shit is pretty widespread though. I didn't go to college, but a lot of the friends I was referring to above went to art school. "the boys" / frat mentality extends way beyond actual frats.

― flappy bird, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:07 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I wholly reject the notion that ending toxic masculinity requires men not hanging out in groups together, that seems silly. I've had great groups of male friends where no such toxicity existed. But I'm all for ending what-happens-in-vegas style weekends and frat culture and the like. And there is definitely something to the idea that "good" guys will feel pressured to act in a certain guy way when in these situations. I was at an all-guy work dinner recently that got very close to crossing some lines, but thankfully a senior mgmt guy read the situation and was like "Ok, it's time to go."
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 6:04 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

for the record i'm not suggesting that but then again if men really never hung out in groups that were exclusively men...hmm

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:08 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I feel you, man alive, inasmuch as I have male friends (that I've known 15-20 years and who can comfortably hang out with like my mom) I can chill with as a group of just guys, so I don't condemn the practice in and of itself as much as I personally generally avoid it because the majority of my creepiest hangs have been dude-exclusive.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:09 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The difference here, though, is that these men were not in positions of power, comparatively speaking. Not excusing, just observing.

A detail I'm leaving out is that the people I'm talking about are all on the board of our alumni organization.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:09 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There’s also work-related male hangouts before or after meetings where the women who don’t go/aren’t invited are not given career breaks or don’t get bondy face time with superiors.

― kim jong deal (suzy), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:09 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This should probably be a separate thread, huh.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:10 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There's no "power" per se as far as other alumni are concerned but we do make decisions that affect the current students' abilities to tour, etc.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:10 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, where can we move this discussion?

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:10 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

some kind of NO GIRLS clubhouse

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:12 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Rolling Tree House Thread 2017

― flappy bird, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:12 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:14 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

?!?!

"the boys" / frat mentality extends way beyond actual frats.
otm
i foolishly thought if i stayed away from broey fratty people, i could escape it. wrong!

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:15 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yea i agree w/ man alive. probably a better thread for all this btw but whatever

i was extremely averse to all-male situations after going to a boys' catholic high school which was frequently toxic, homophobic, misogynist, crude, awful. after that experience, when i went to college i sought out friendships mostly with women, and i now work in a profession that is 80% women.

but eventually i've found great value in cultivating close, intimate friendships with other men and that sometimes that intimacy can be facilitated by male-only environments. they don't have to be toxic.

in the past decade, i've been part of a few all-male things, all of which have been super healthy, positive, and rewarding, and have never gone into that kind of toxic gross shit mentioned itt: 1) a men's group to talk about healthy sexuality in the context of being a man; 2) a regular "dad's night out" for special needs dads (mostly autism parents) organized by a local autism/special needs non-profit; 3) a regular friday night group w/ some of my childhood male friends, mostly we talk about music, politics, food, art, film, sex too but ime some men are able to talk about sex without being fratty creeps.

though i have talked to male friends and family members that work in male-dominated professions and tbh it sounds fucking horrible

― marcos, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:15 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Rolling No Girls Allowed Treehouse Thread (All Gender Identities Welcome)

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:16 PM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's exactly what bob pollard said
"no girls in the treehouse"

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:17 PM (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I could've sworn there was already some "masculinity" thread

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:19 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i would like to add, perhaps relevant to this thread, that my bad-vibes groups are men who work in the entertainment industry. not all of them are these bad dudes, most are not, but the conversations which wind up occurring are often...not the greatest.

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:19 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there's a few xp

plus like...... most of ilx sadly

― marcos, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:19 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol, my wife had her 40th in Vegas
Ha! Well, women do their own shit in groups, but defending this from afar, I doubt large groups of women get together and turn into assholes the way men often do. Or at least certainly not the same way.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:20 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I doubt large groups of women get together and turn into assholes

lol sometimes I think there is nothing more terrifying than a gang of 10yo girls, the level of real emotional cruelty can just be insane

we're wandering rather far afield here...

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:23 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

(ftr my wife made me go to Vegas with her for her 30th birthday - it was just us though. also I hated almost every second of it apart from the Star Trek experience thing)

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:24 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Don't get me started on kids.

BTW, per "locker room," back when the Access Hollywood tapes came out, the same friend who was anti-"dudes only!" in Vegas didn't defend Trump but did observe that the shit he was saying wasn't that different from the shit any one of us (guys) might say in private. My first thought was, not me! But my second thought was that I at least understood what he was talking about. One man's ironic quip ...

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:25 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The last time I was in Vegas, for a wedding (bride was from Vegas), was actually fine, but after that my wife and I basically breathed a sigh that we would never have to go to Vegas again.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:26 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:31 (one year ago) Permalink

where all my gamergate bros at

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:37 (one year ago) Permalink

outmoded. deal

good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:37 (one year ago) Permalink

I remember Andrea Juno insisting that men hanging out in groups occasionally was good for them but I didn't understand why she thought that.

Marcos- I understand the male only sexual health group but not the other examples.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:39 (one year ago) Permalink

I've been to one small bachelor party, maybe a dozen years ago. I had some experiences, as the only queer there (afaik), that I had not had before. (The groom behaved impeccably btw.)

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:40 (one year ago) Permalink

FWIW my "bachelor party" was just me and my close friends getting ethiopian food and drinks and seeing some music. There was a brief moment of me and a friend talking shit about a woman we had both dated, with a sort of knowing "Okay, just this once, since it's a *bachelor party*" wink. Even that shittalking didn't get all that ugly.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:42 (one year ago) Permalink

Being a straight, white male has pretty much always felt weird to me inasmuch as I don't relate to most of the things I'm 'supposed' to relate to as a straight, white male. Beyond even just like sports or whatever, I mean weird-ass competitive displays of dominance and strength and machismo and whatever the hell. Just trying to describe the prescriptive aspects of maleness that squick me out, I feel like someone who's always experienced it at a remove and barely has any idea what he's talking about.

the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:43 (one year ago) Permalink

yeah I hear you.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:45 (one year ago) Permalink

bewar! others have trod where you wish to tread: maleness

A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:46 (one year ago) Permalink

i think progressive men who don't want the world to be the way the world has always been need to STEP THE FUCK UP. but i don't know how you change the world. i just try to change myself on the regular. and evolve. i am all for evolution. which can be difficult for people. and which is a daily process. and this is why a lot of men just choose to put their hand down their pants Bundy-style and turn on the boob tube and fuggedahboutit.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:51 (one year ago) Permalink

One thing I was thinking reading the Weinstein thread is how important it is for men to kind of guide other men away from the wrong kinds of attitudes and behaviors and give them an alternative. I feel like I was extremely lucky that I had this freshman year roommate who happened to have this friend from home who was at the school and who became my very good friend -- he was a very confident guy and just wasn't having any of the bullshit. My first weekend we went to hang out with some junior that one of them knew and he was being a complete piece of shit, saying gross stuff about women, pressuring us to get wasted, etc. and the guy who became my friend made an exit for us and then talked on the way home about how much the whole experience sucked, and it made me feel like "Okay, college doesn't have to be like that, I'm not going to go that route."

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:52 (one year ago) Permalink

I'm gonna be the contrarian and say....I don't mind when my buddies wanna hang with me away from wives and girlfriends? And I like/love their wives and girlfriends. I don't see the big deal. Maybe my gayness is the x factor.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:53 (one year ago) Permalink

also, marcos on the other thread describing his gross toxic high school was a description of EVERY school i ever went to. and i went to....five schools. just being around that for so many years was so detrimental.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:53 (one year ago) Permalink

I've tried steering other men's behavior before and ime it is thankless and usually unhelpful, which is not me saying it's not worth attempting.

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:54 (one year ago) Permalink

i have a friend whose marriage ended and he has apparently quite literally gone down a rabbit hole of cocaine and escorts. meanwhile a mutual friend told *me* that guy actually has some kind of problems w/my low-key lifestyle, like how i don't actually want to party anymore (ftr, my partying w/him involved having two beers and him having three cocktails and then insisting we split the bill, so...)

dude i don't want to hang out w/you and listen to your BS "true man" advice about how to live while you're doing lines with someone you're paying to have sex with you.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:57 (one year ago) Permalink

Our friend group has never done all-male things (even the bachelor 'parties' were co-ed), but there are definitely 'ladies only' nights that get organized and my wife hates it.

That said there have been issues over the years with certain dudes tending to dominate the conversation (shocking I know), so I can appreciate wanting a different dynamic. But most of us who are in relationships, y'know, like having our partner at social gatherings with mutual friends.

xp

change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:58 (one year ago) Permalink

yea that's gruesome xp

marcos, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:58 (one year ago) Permalink

i have better friends than that guy, fortunately. i think one aspect of this is that sometimes you change and other people don't change.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:59 (one year ago) Permalink

Maybe my gayness is the x factor.

yeah having non-heteros in an all-male mix definitely alters social dynamics in my experience

Οὖτις, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:59 (one year ago) Permalink

I'm often in the exclusive company of men when I socialize, and not always all-gay. Generally things don't get gross.

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:00 (one year ago) Permalink

or should i say, sometimes you change in one direction and other people change in another direction. xp

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:00 (one year ago) Permalink

I didn't have to deal with much toxic maleness as a kid/teen. I'm very thankful for the friends I had back then. I had lots of time with other young men and we were mostly never gross about women, or like weird and competitive. Began to experience it a lot more as an adult, which definitely made my social anxiety worse and led to me being pretty much a shut-in.

how's life, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:00 (one year ago) Permalink

We discuss music, movies, politics, our sex lives in an adult, non-gross way, problems with dating/wives/girlfriends. They find it more helpful than I do. I don't see anything wrong with me for wanting to see them a couple times a month without their spouses and girlfriends. In fact, if anything, in Hispanic culture there's too much of an obsession with couples doing everything together.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:01 (one year ago) Permalink

I've tried steering other men's behavior before and ime it is thankless and usually unhelpful, which is not me saying it's not worth attempting.

― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Thursday, October 12, 2017 5:54 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I feel like this is a massive public health issue and want to do something about it, but I have no idea where to begin

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:02 (one year ago) Permalink

"I don't see the big deal. Maybe my gayness is the x factor."

i would be totally happy to hang out with a group of gay guys. i miss hanging out with gay guys. living with gay men in philly and knowing a wide range of gay men was one of my favorite things about living there. living in squaresville can suck sometimes.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:02 (one year ago) Permalink

i think men should make sure they listen to a lot of music by artists who are not male and read a lot of books by authors who are not male. that sounds like a very simple thing, but it's important.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:03 (one year ago) Permalink

i will say though on behalf of my squaresville that the men i know and am friends with tend to be mellow/creative/metrosexual/progressive/not gross/freak folkers and i can't say enough good stuff about them. but i don't really hang with men outside of music events that much.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:06 (one year ago) Permalink

xps: I would definitely not categorically exclude gay guys from the group of men who think they can let loose with their misogyny once they think it's 'just us guys'.

how's life, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:08 (one year ago) Permalink

i mean a lot of the men i know COULD be gay if they just tried harder. those are the str8 guys i get along with best.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:09 (one year ago) Permalink

Several straight friends are gayer than I am.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:10 (one year ago) Permalink

i think men should make sure they listen to a lot of music by artists who are not male and read a lot of books by authors who are not male. that sounds like a very simple thing, but it's important.

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 1:03 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Totally. I can't really shut up about it, but I've been somewhat obsessed with Adrianne Lenker/Big Thief lately. The first song on the new album has been having a huge affect on me, the way I see male-female relationships, sex, etc., it really puts some things together that I sort of was subliminally aware of but hadn't allowed myself to get in touch with. In general her lyrics are so humanizing and I find her very therapeutic to listen to.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:11 (one year ago) Permalink

*effect

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:11 (one year ago) Permalink

I would definitely not categorically exclude gay guys from the group of men who think they can let loose with their misogyny once they think it's 'just us guys'.

this is def true but gay misogyny is a different beast, it's coming from a different place where the sexual frustration/aggression angle doesn't come into it

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:12 (one year ago) Permalink

The most heinous group I know is around an acquaintance/former lover who never lets an opportunity to shame women slip by.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:13 (one year ago) Permalink

this is def true but gay misogyny is a different beast, it's coming from a different place where the sexual frustration/aggression angle doesn't come into it

I don't really buy that. The misogyny I've seen from both straight and gay men revolves around demeaning women and reducing them to objects that are at disposal; whether they want to touch them sexually or not doesn't drive the behavior, which manifests similar patterns of diminishing, gaslighting, and undermining.

Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:15 (one year ago) Permalink

one of cyrus's best friends has a gay dad - this kid has two moms and two dads for the total western mass package - who is totally into 80's/synth/disco and when he comes around i try not jump on him with madonna talk but i get starved! rupaul was his roommate in the 80's! how can i resist?

some sorta x-post

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:16 (one year ago) Permalink

The misogyny I've seen from both straight and gay men revolves around demeaning women and reducing them to objects that are at disposal; whether they want to touch them sexually or not doesn't drive the behavior, which manifests similar patterns of diminishing, gaslighting, and undermining.

otm

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:17 (one year ago) Permalink

Nomar OTM about reading books by women, listening to music made by women, experiencing art made by women. I've made a concious effort the last year to read more women, and I don't know if it has profoundly altered the way I see thee world, but it's also helped me understand some subleties abt the experience of women in the world. Idk. I try, but I'm no paragon of virtue. I think especially when I was younger, late teens/early twenties, I probably said lots of inappropriate or terrible things when hanging out with dudes. But it's important to be work at being better and acknowledge the fact that by making (even ironic) sexist or racy jokes we are perpetuating a bad thing.

Ass far as hanging out in male groups -- I think a significant portion (20%?)of my socializing is in a male only environment, but it's never organized or thought of in those terms. There are a couple of guys I get together with once or twice a month to listen to 78s. We're just the only ppl we know who are nerdy about that music at that level, and we're all happily married. Rarely does the topic of wives come up; too busy talking about alternate takes and who was playing 2nd guitar on a session. If anything, we most often express how thankful we are to have partners who indulge our weird hobbies and other quirks.

Helen and I don't go out with other couples very much in a "double date" kinda way, but our neighborhood pals are a healthy mix of men and women. A group of people coming over for dinner or to listen to records is never one or the other. Definitely having close friends who are women has helped me to be a better person and more concious of my words/actions.

ian, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:19 (one year ago) Permalink

Maybe ILB should stop having FAPs :(

Tom's Tits Experiment (Tom D.), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:28 (one year ago) Permalink

i think w/the exclusively male nights out i've had, there is this sense of MEN, TO BATTLE, for tonight we etc etc. it's a little lame. i do have a few male friends with whom i have some record listening parties and talk audio shop and equipment and the like, though we've also had women involved w/both (just not most of the time.) that feels a bit more natural as opposed to a "just the boys" night out.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:29 (one year ago) Permalink

you need a gay man in your life, nomar

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:29 (one year ago) Permalink

maybe it's because i think my friends skew younger but if there happens to be an all-dude hangout it's unintentional and ends up being like record shopping/listening and beers and n64 basically. and it's usually 2-3 guys, never like a big posse

global tetrahedron, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:37 (one year ago) Permalink

xp no kidding, i mean none of my bros want to talk about saint etienne w/me

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:39 (one year ago) Permalink

oh so you all take it seriously this time

imago, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:39 (one year ago) Permalink

This discussion has prompted me to try and remember the last time I hung out with just guys (who weren't my brothers)...and I honestly think it could've been a decade or more ago.

the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:43 (one year ago) Permalink

Like the closest I can think of was an all-male anxiety group (organized and run by my then-therapist, a woman). And that isn't quite what I'd call a 'hang'.

the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:46 (one year ago) Permalink

Heh, it's actually kind of a problem that a lot of my straight male friends are musicians who often want to talk to me specifically (and not my wife) about music shit that only we care about.

My gay friends want to talk about books (but are way better about including everyone in the conversation).

change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:48 (one year ago) Permalink

Wow, you guys have whole groups of friends!

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:48 (one year ago) Permalink

I often see a conversation on twitter where
1. women will talk about how men have a responsibility to challenge problematic comments made by male friends, esp when in all-male groups
2. a bunch of men will respond saying that avoid hanging out with the kind of guys who say stuff like that, or avoid hanging out in all-male groups altogether because they find them toxic
3. women will respond saying that this is not helpful/an abrogation of responsibility etc, that men who consider themselves 'allies' or whatever have a duty to engage with these ppl/situations.

idk, befriending ppl you don't enjoy spending time with solely so you can admonish them for their bad behavior seems unlikely to end well for anyone? to actually maintain those friendships imo you would have to pick your battles to a certain extent, let some things slide, be complicit up to a point, and where do you draw the line? but I can see the logic of saying that a guy who avoids this kind of environment to keep himself 'pure' is actually doing less to help than someone who hangs out in groups that are problematic but makes some attempt to push back against that.

soref, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:52 (one year ago) Permalink

And yet here you are.

don't let's be beastly to the gammons (ultros ultros-ghali), Monday, 21 January 2019 01:08 (four weeks ago) Permalink

offering a male point of view that is worthwhile. i am a man. i am strong.

(ADVANCE) (320k vbr) (--V2) (aps) (diVX) (2CD) OST - SB (2019) (esby), Monday, 21 January 2019 01:09 (four weeks ago) Permalink

such will.

Yerac, Monday, 21 January 2019 01:13 (four weeks ago) Permalink

I'm curious as to how choad made it from (as Wiktionary claims) Hindi into 90s American stoner slang, the first place I encountered it... there is what I would consider to be a suspicious 100-year gap in the list of attestations.

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 21 January 2019 03:50 (four weeks ago) Permalink

OED:

Origin: Of unknown origin.
Etymology: Origin unknown.

Perhaps compare Hindi codnā (of a man) to have sexual intercourse, cod-ghar brothel, codū (adjective) lascivious, (noun) lascivious man

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Monday, 21 January 2019 04:09 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Earliest citation is Zap Comics no 3, 1968

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Monday, 21 January 2019 04:10 (four weeks ago) Permalink

I don't buy the Hindi connection, really. Was thinking maybe some riff on Spanish's joder but that doesn't make sense either. My money's on an English neologism.

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 21 January 2019 04:30 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Proto-Estonians are having their good name dragged through the mud: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chud

― jmm

but not as badly as the 1987 sami film "pathfinder" did, so there's that

The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy), Monday, 21 January 2019 04:39 (four weeks ago) Permalink

i am a man. i am strong.
In numbers too big to be wrong...

nickn, Monday, 21 January 2019 05:09 (four weeks ago) Permalink

the ad has put Gillette into my mind, but specifically the image of a terrorized boy chased through the Gillette logo by bullies, so I'm not sure if that really has any positive impact on my likelihood to buy Gillette products (caveat being I no longer shave so it's all hypothetical)

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 21 January 2019 05:44 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Anyway, guess this is the era of advertising we live in now. Looking forward to buying the first peanut butter to acknowledges the armenian genocide.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 21 January 2019 05:46 (four weeks ago) Permalink

lol

resident hack (Simon H.), Monday, 21 January 2019 05:58 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Denny’s has been making black history month ads for years now

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Monday, 21 January 2019 06:12 (four weeks ago) Permalink

"sure, you can go to waffle house... if you're RACIST"

The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy), Monday, 21 January 2019 14:37 (four weeks ago) Permalink

could totally picture the decline of local diners combined with the ubiquity of Denny's in some areas (Waffle House unfortunately being more regional) resulting in some students asking what these "diners" were that were segregated and had sit-ins resulting in a teacher explaining, "well, they were kind of like a Denny's restaurant"

Denny's would like to strongly assure you they are not the diners of old

mh, Monday, 21 January 2019 15:03 (four weeks ago) Permalink

man that Nathan For You episode where he makes a "Holocaust remembrance" windbreaker was really ahead of its time wasn't it

frogbs, Monday, 21 January 2019 15:07 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Feels like the MAGA teens from the March for Life merit discussion in here

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 16:40 (three weeks ago) Permalink

in addition to the other two threads we're discussing them in??

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 16:41 (three weeks ago) Permalink

lol r u kidding

topical mlady (darraghmac), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 16:41 (three weeks ago) Permalink

plz no more fronts the troops are getting thin

Mordy, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 16:42 (three weeks ago) Permalink

i mean sure

place has come alive its good

topical mlady (darraghmac), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 16:42 (three weeks ago) Permalink

frogbs reminded me to watch more Nathan for You last night and I saw the "claw of shame" episode finally

thanks frogbs!

mh, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 16:45 (three weeks ago) Permalink

I feel like the cycle of take exhaustion gets shorter and shorter with each one of these events. I can't even formulate a thought on the MAGA teens at this point because they've all been mined already.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 17:01 (three weeks ago) Permalink

There’s actually no real reason to have a thought about any of it but as has been said we’re covering this in at least two threads apart from this one

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 17:04 (three weeks ago) Permalink

every time I see "MAGA teens" it makes me think of We Are The Ovaltineys

soref, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 17:15 (three weeks ago) Permalink

This sense that we all have some kind of responsibility to act as national jury on a random verbal skirmish at a protest is sort of maddening and anxiety-producing. I'm sure the kids were being racist shitheads because they were wearing MAGA hats so case closed but social media creates this false sense of urgency to weigh evidence, form a nuanced opinion, say something original, etc.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 17:29 (three weeks ago) Permalink

i guess what i really mean is the variety of things on display in the videos made available -- the abrasiveness of the israelites, the aw shucks clueless entitlement of the boys, the model of spirited & stoic de-escalation from phillips (the native man); different modes of maleness on display & used in different ways. but i take the point it's been covered elsewhere.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 17:32 (three weeks ago) Permalink

Man alive otm. We weren't there on the grassy knoll, we don't all need to do frame-by-frame Zapruder shit every. God. Damn. Time.

P much everybody here on record as opposing racist shitheads (I think); do we all need to formulate a specific opinion on every incident?

Gunther Gleiben (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 23:38 (three weeks ago) Permalink

democracy dies in darkness, etc.

j., Tuesday, 22 January 2019 23:43 (three weeks ago) Permalink

jfc

Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 23:57 (three weeks ago) Permalink

Maybe i do need to get off the internet

Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 23:57 (three weeks ago) Permalink

jeeeesus

resident hack (Simon H.), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 23:58 (three weeks ago) Permalink

well now he's definitely gonna get laid amirite

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 January 2019 00:00 (three weeks ago) Permalink

Maybe individualism is the problem. The fact that this guy thinks his loneliness is more valid than other people’s lives suggests a flaw in the calculus

Trϵϵship, Wednesday, 23 January 2019 00:00 (three weeks ago) Permalink

if only these creeps could realize that 'losing your virginity' is boring and nbd

j., Wednesday, 23 January 2019 00:03 (three weeks ago) Permalink

i mean i thought it was great but they should realize it doesn't stop you being the piece of shit loser you know yourself to be

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 23 January 2019 00:09 (three weeks ago) Permalink

Per an organizer of the indigenous rally too, one of the reasons for the rally was to bring attention to the missing and murdered indigenous women. The woman who was raped and gave birth while in a vegetative state was native american. Jayme Closs was just randomly chosen by the guy that murdered her parents. I mean it's all bad.

Yerac, Wednesday, 23 January 2019 00:09 (three weeks ago) Permalink

https://mcrumps.com/2019/01/23/letter-from-a-french-incel-phd-response-to-the-aeneid-for-incels/

Allow me to introduce myself. I am French, born and raised in Paris, but have fled this city—where a disenfranchised middle-class son cannot have roots unless he sucks the right dicks—to get a try elsewhere. This was a good choice. I managed to pull from a master degree in philosophy to a PhD program. Now I can write my name with the famous three digits put after. However, although this allowed me to develop my intellectual abilities and master many social cues, hard analytical paradigms and rhetorical tropes, this is not the most interesting part.

j., Wednesday, 23 January 2019 17:05 (three weeks ago) Permalink

Shocked that someone who kept going on about how middle-class and white he is, as though either of those things or the combination are of intrinsic value, had difficulty forming connections with people.

gyac, Wednesday, 23 January 2019 17:18 (three weeks ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

The replies on this tweet are an endless bounty of gifts.

found a new guy pic.twitter.com/i9GpFs8ZFs

— virgin (@wwwdotyoutube) February 8, 2019

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Monday, 11 February 2019 02:53 (one week ago) Permalink

I would almost feel bad for dogpiling on this weirdo if it weren't for the extremely upfront racism

bhad bundy (Simon H.), Monday, 11 February 2019 03:02 (one week ago) Permalink

I can’t

Norm’s Superego (silby), Monday, 11 February 2019 03:06 (one week ago) Permalink

#sideoffruit

⅋ (crüt), Monday, 11 February 2019 03:09 (one week ago) Permalink

i'd watch an Odd Couple type show w/him and M4rc L01

⅋ (crüt), Monday, 11 February 2019 03:17 (one week ago) Permalink

Alright, fuck it. here goes. The Hardrocknick / Aly Ashley Jash Story.

— DeepThroatBDN (@BdnDeep) February 10, 2019

⅋ (crüt), Monday, 11 February 2019 03:18 (one week ago) Permalink

oh my god

bhad bundy (Simon H.), Monday, 11 February 2019 03:20 (one week ago) Permalink

Anything I would say here would be inappropriate for the internet.

Yerac, Monday, 11 February 2019 03:22 (one week ago) Permalink

how come the mildly entertainingly horrible ones always end up being the total and complete scum of the earth

actually, never mind

mh, Monday, 11 February 2019 03:56 (one week ago) Permalink


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