Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

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Welcome to the MANCAVE bros! Lol psych, this is for contemplating serious issues NOT raised by the men's rights movement, and also we need to stop hijacking the Weinstein thread for real.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:30 (two years ago) link

this is maybe going to sound incredibly dumb, i'm not trying to be #notallmen or #reversepence, but these days i just don't like to hang out with a group of dudes for a night out, or a party that's all men, etc...the energy weirds me out a lot of the time. most of my friends these days all are couples and we hang out as such, but i have other male friends who will just socialize with THA BOYS and i find when i join them that the conversations just go places i'm not comfortable with a lot of the time, or the vibe is just weird, the balance is all off, etc. i don't like the "men's club" feeling. i don't know.

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:39 AM (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

agree

― mookieproof, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:42 AM (forty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, I totally feel you. I am generally averse to 'dude hangs', particularly 'white dude hangs'. Speaking as a white dude, no demographic is more likely to creep me out than other white dudes.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:43 AM (forty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

same

― brimstead, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:44 AM (forty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think the only time I'm in that situation is at band rehearsal but we aren't all white and we aren't all male so it's only intermittently when there's just a subset of us there. idk it doesn't bother me, there's no assholes in the band lol

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:47 AM (forty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Just don't hang out with assholes imo.

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the classic Max Ophuls film Letter from an Unknown Woman is relevant on this point

Did you see the cuts Harvey demanded?

― Anne of the Thousand Gays (Eric H.), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"That's locker room."

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

men who feel the need to exclude women aren't usually up to anything worthwhile ime

where does the conversation go that makes you uncomfortable? i'll admit to being curious.

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I mean, IDK I haven't had that experience so much. I don't hang out with anyone that much these days, but I get together with a group of guys to play music and it's mostly just talk about music, being a dad, work sucks, and maybe football in which case I tune out.

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:49 AM (forty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Seems like a thread derail anyway.

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:49 AM (forty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

men who feel the need to exclude women aren't usually up to anything worthwhile ime

yeah I think this is the real issue

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:50 AM (forty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I really hate the idea of stag weekends

― good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:51 AM (thirty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

in the future they will figure out a way to lower testosterone in unborn male fetuses. or something like that. i'm an optimist! #scifireader

― scott seward, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:51 AM (thirty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the company i work for has a large salesforce of mostly men . they come into the office from all over the country for training and meetings and want to go out in the City while they are here . I only went once and never again , the worst part was that most of them are married but when they come here it's like they are on some fucking weied free for all, it's horrible .

― (•̪●) (carne asada), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:52 AM (thirty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's disgusting ^^^

it's not the testosterone -- it's the culture
we can change it if we try. y'all have kids. time to destroy the fratriarchy :)

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:54 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I have a great core of friends, no assholes, but one of them keeps gravitating toward these sort of fratty activities. For example, he had his 40th birthday in Vegas, and my wife and were all, who actually does this? (So we decided not to go, since Vegas sucks - sorry, Vegas). The other week he made this half suggestion that we go back, but he added "and this time it should be just the guys!" And another friend of mine basically looked at him funny and said, "why? I like having my wife around." Which is to say I think some guys, even not assholes, sometimes get it in their head that they should do guy things in the most cliched guy way possible, and when a group of dudes, even good dudes, get that in their head, things can escalate into assholetry.

Or, like a different friend around the backyard fire pit the other night, actually take out his acoustic guitar and start strumming (and singing!) rudimentary classic rock songs. Don't do that either!

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:54 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^Harvey would have been a lot better off if he'd just done that tho.

― to fly across the city and find Aerosmith's car (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:00 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah that's my attitude to stag parties, just complete befuddlement. "A pre-wedding party, but no women allowed!" Lol what, no, that sounds fucking terrible and dumb. Where are we going, your treehouse?

― good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:00 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The only all-male context I have in my life right now revolves around the alumni group for my all-male college chorus and even there enough of the guys are married to women that it's rare to have a meetup that is actually all male. (We do have an alumni chorus gig every two years, alternating between West Coast US and Japan, where the rehearsals are all-male but we are also in the middle of an activity so there's no real opportunity for things to go super gross.)

I will say that as a straight guy in this context, there is apparently some intragroup harassment that completely bypasses me; one issue that we've had in getting younger alums involved is apparently a core group of guys in their 60s-70s who make a habit of trying to prey on anyone under 30 who shows up. I knew nothing about this until one of my friends told me some stories about rescue missions he and his partner have gone on to keep things above board.

xp: lol, my wife had her 40th in Vegas, as did one of the guys I mentioned who was cockblocking old predators on the last alumni chorus trip.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:00 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"we can change it if we try. y'all have kids. time to destroy the fratriarchy"

my kids were lucky enough to go to a really kind/loving/progressive school during their formative years and it totally helped form them in a really positive way. they are very quick to cry foul if they see/hear anything unfair/sexist/racist. not everyone gets that opportunity. i wish i'd had that!

― scott seward, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:01 PM (twenty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a core group of guys in their 60s-70s who make a habit of trying to prey on anyone under 30 who shows up.

as someone who used to attend an LGBT church (overwhelmingly white men), this is not an unfamiliar phenomenon to me

― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:03 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I wholly reject the notion that ending toxic masculinity requires men not hanging out in groups together, that seems silly. I've had great groups of male friends where no such toxicity existed. But I'm all for ending what-happens-in-vegas style weekends and frat culture and the like. And there is definitely something to the idea that "good" guys will feel pressured to act in a certain guy way when in these situations. I was at an all-guy work dinner recently that got very close to crossing some lines, but thankfully a senior mgmt guy read the situation and was like "Ok, it's time to go."

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:04 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so happy i don't know what a "stag party" is and have to guess

and yeah i have/have had a lot of friends who are extremely "the boys" mentality. i.e. daydrinking & playing Xbox & doing blow. shit is dark. it's so stupid

― flappy bird, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:05 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

La Lechera -- i guess it's that the conversations turn towards talking about women a lot or relationships in a way that feels a bit retrograde, there's always going to be a bit of that type of flirting w/servers that makes me feel like i'm with a bunch of embarrassing uncles, and it feels kind of gloomy for some reason in a very existential dude way. i can't really explain that latter part, it's more an overall feeling i have. that's probably not a great answer.

it differs from other friends where the couples will hang out and it's just fun and easy and no one has any hangups about the lack of dude nights in that particular circle. though there are times when i'll go hang out with one of those dudes. we just don't get all together as a group to visit the secret world of men, away from the women!

we have a son, and his two oldest friends are girls. and i think that's been more helpful than any advice i could give him. i think he's weirded out by dude energy too, maybe. it's good to err on the side of caution!

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:06 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

as someone who used to attend an LGBT church (overwhelmingly white men), this is not an unfamiliar phenomenon to me

As someone who used to host trivia in the only gay bar in town that attracted a 55+ clientele, me neither. The difference here, though, is that these men were not in positions of power, comparatively speaking. Not excusing, just observing.

― Anne of the Thousand Gays (Eric H.), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:06 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Stag party = bachelor party. If they don't have those where you are, hopefully you can guess from "pre-wedding party for men" xp

― good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:07 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

xxxxp yeah man alive otm, ya gotta call em as ya see em. Shit is pretty widespread though. I didn't go to college, but a lot of the friends I was referring to above went to art school. "the boys" / frat mentality extends way beyond actual frats.

― flappy bird, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:07 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I wholly reject the notion that ending toxic masculinity requires men not hanging out in groups together, that seems silly. I've had great groups of male friends where no such toxicity existed. But I'm all for ending what-happens-in-vegas style weekends and frat culture and the like. And there is definitely something to the idea that "good" guys will feel pressured to act in a certain guy way when in these situations. I was at an all-guy work dinner recently that got very close to crossing some lines, but thankfully a senior mgmt guy read the situation and was like "Ok, it's time to go."
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 6:04 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

for the record i'm not suggesting that but then again if men really never hung out in groups that were exclusively men...hmm

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:08 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I feel you, man alive, inasmuch as I have male friends (that I've known 15-20 years and who can comfortably hang out with like my mom) I can chill with as a group of just guys, so I don't condemn the practice in and of itself as much as I personally generally avoid it because the majority of my creepiest hangs have been dude-exclusive.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:09 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The difference here, though, is that these men were not in positions of power, comparatively speaking. Not excusing, just observing.

A detail I'm leaving out is that the people I'm talking about are all on the board of our alumni organization.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:09 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There’s also work-related male hangouts before or after meetings where the women who don’t go/aren’t invited are not given career breaks or don’t get bondy face time with superiors.

― kim jong deal (suzy), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:09 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This should probably be a separate thread, huh.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:10 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There's no "power" per se as far as other alumni are concerned but we do make decisions that affect the current students' abilities to tour, etc.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:10 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, where can we move this discussion?

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:10 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

some kind of NO GIRLS clubhouse

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:12 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Rolling Tree House Thread 2017

― flappy bird, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:12 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:14 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

?!?!

"the boys" / frat mentality extends way beyond actual frats.
otm
i foolishly thought if i stayed away from broey fratty people, i could escape it. wrong!

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:15 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yea i agree w/ man alive. probably a better thread for all this btw but whatever

i was extremely averse to all-male situations after going to a boys' catholic high school which was frequently toxic, homophobic, misogynist, crude, awful. after that experience, when i went to college i sought out friendships mostly with women, and i now work in a profession that is 80% women.

but eventually i've found great value in cultivating close, intimate friendships with other men and that sometimes that intimacy can be facilitated by male-only environments. they don't have to be toxic.

in the past decade, i've been part of a few all-male things, all of which have been super healthy, positive, and rewarding, and have never gone into that kind of toxic gross shit mentioned itt: 1) a men's group to talk about healthy sexuality in the context of being a man; 2) a regular "dad's night out" for special needs dads (mostly autism parents) organized by a local autism/special needs non-profit; 3) a regular friday night group w/ some of my childhood male friends, mostly we talk about music, politics, food, art, film, sex too but ime some men are able to talk about sex without being fratty creeps.

though i have talked to male friends and family members that work in male-dominated professions and tbh it sounds fucking horrible

― marcos, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:15 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Rolling No Girls Allowed Treehouse Thread (All Gender Identities Welcome)

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:16 PM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's exactly what bob pollard said
"no girls in the treehouse"

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:17 PM (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I could've sworn there was already some "masculinity" thread

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:19 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i would like to add, perhaps relevant to this thread, that my bad-vibes groups are men who work in the entertainment industry. not all of them are these bad dudes, most are not, but the conversations which wind up occurring are often...not the greatest.

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:19 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there's a few xp

plus like...... most of ilx sadly

― marcos, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:19 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol, my wife had her 40th in Vegas
Ha! Well, women do their own shit in groups, but defending this from afar, I doubt large groups of women get together and turn into assholes the way men often do. Or at least certainly not the same way.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:20 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I doubt large groups of women get together and turn into assholes

lol sometimes I think there is nothing more terrifying than a gang of 10yo girls, the level of real emotional cruelty can just be insane

we're wandering rather far afield here...

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:23 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

(ftr my wife made me go to Vegas with her for her 30th birthday - it was just us though. also I hated almost every second of it apart from the Star Trek experience thing)

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:24 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Don't get me started on kids.

BTW, per "locker room," back when the Access Hollywood tapes came out, the same friend who was anti-"dudes only!" in Vegas didn't defend Trump but did observe that the shit he was saying wasn't that different from the shit any one of us (guys) might say in private. My first thought was, not me! But my second thought was that I at least understood what he was talking about. One man's ironic quip ...

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:25 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The last time I was in Vegas, for a wedding (bride was from Vegas), was actually fine, but after that my wife and I basically breathed a sigh that we would never have to go to Vegas again.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:26 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:31 (two years ago) link

where all my gamergate bros at

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:37 (two years ago) link

outmoded. deal

good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:37 (two years ago) link

I remember Andrea Juno insisting that men hanging out in groups occasionally was good for them but I didn't understand why she thought that.

Marcos- I understand the male only sexual health group but not the other examples.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:39 (two years ago) link

I've been to one small bachelor party, maybe a dozen years ago. I had some experiences, as the only queer there (afaik), that I had not had before. (The groom behaved impeccably btw.)

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:40 (two years ago) link

FWIW my "bachelor party" was just me and my close friends getting ethiopian food and drinks and seeing some music. There was a brief moment of me and a friend talking shit about a woman we had both dated, with a sort of knowing "Okay, just this once, since it's a *bachelor party*" wink. Even that shittalking didn't get all that ugly.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:42 (two years ago) link

Being a straight, white male has pretty much always felt weird to me inasmuch as I don't relate to most of the things I'm 'supposed' to relate to as a straight, white male. Beyond even just like sports or whatever, I mean weird-ass competitive displays of dominance and strength and machismo and whatever the hell. Just trying to describe the prescriptive aspects of maleness that squick me out, I feel like someone who's always experienced it at a remove and barely has any idea what he's talking about.

the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:43 (two years ago) link

yeah I hear you.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:45 (two years ago) link

bewar! others have trod where you wish to tread: maleness

A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:46 (two years ago) link

i think progressive men who don't want the world to be the way the world has always been need to STEP THE FUCK UP. but i don't know how you change the world. i just try to change myself on the regular. and evolve. i am all for evolution. which can be difficult for people. and which is a daily process. and this is why a lot of men just choose to put their hand down their pants Bundy-style and turn on the boob tube and fuggedahboutit.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:51 (two years ago) link

One thing I was thinking reading the Weinstein thread is how important it is for men to kind of guide other men away from the wrong kinds of attitudes and behaviors and give them an alternative. I feel like I was extremely lucky that I had this freshman year roommate who happened to have this friend from home who was at the school and who became my very good friend -- he was a very confident guy and just wasn't having any of the bullshit. My first weekend we went to hang out with some junior that one of them knew and he was being a complete piece of shit, saying gross stuff about women, pressuring us to get wasted, etc. and the guy who became my friend made an exit for us and then talked on the way home about how much the whole experience sucked, and it made me feel like "Okay, college doesn't have to be like that, I'm not going to go that route."

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:52 (two years ago) link

I'm gonna be the contrarian and say....I don't mind when my buddies wanna hang with me away from wives and girlfriends? And I like/love their wives and girlfriends. I don't see the big deal. Maybe my gayness is the x factor.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:53 (two years ago) link

also, marcos on the other thread describing his gross toxic high school was a description of EVERY school i ever went to. and i went to....five schools. just being around that for so many years was so detrimental.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:53 (two years ago) link

I've tried steering other men's behavior before and ime it is thankless and usually unhelpful, which is not me saying it's not worth attempting.

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:54 (two years ago) link

i have a friend whose marriage ended and he has apparently quite literally gone down a rabbit hole of cocaine and escorts. meanwhile a mutual friend told *me* that guy actually has some kind of problems w/my low-key lifestyle, like how i don't actually want to party anymore (ftr, my partying w/him involved having two beers and him having three cocktails and then insisting we split the bill, so...)

dude i don't want to hang out w/you and listen to your BS "true man" advice about how to live while you're doing lines with someone you're paying to have sex with you.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:57 (two years ago) link

Our friend group has never done all-male things (even the bachelor 'parties' were co-ed), but there are definitely 'ladies only' nights that get organized and my wife hates it.

That said there have been issues over the years with certain dudes tending to dominate the conversation (shocking I know), so I can appreciate wanting a different dynamic. But most of us who are in relationships, y'know, like having our partner at social gatherings with mutual friends.

xp

change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:58 (two years ago) link

yea that's gruesome xp

marcos, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:58 (two years ago) link

i have better friends than that guy, fortunately. i think one aspect of this is that sometimes you change and other people don't change.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:59 (two years ago) link

Maybe my gayness is the x factor.

yeah having non-heteros in an all-male mix definitely alters social dynamics in my experience

Οὖτις, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:59 (two years ago) link

I'm often in the exclusive company of men when I socialize, and not always all-gay. Generally things don't get gross.

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:00 (two years ago) link

or should i say, sometimes you change in one direction and other people change in another direction. xp

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:00 (two years ago) link

I didn't have to deal with much toxic maleness as a kid/teen. I'm very thankful for the friends I had back then. I had lots of time with other young men and we were mostly never gross about women, or like weird and competitive. Began to experience it a lot more as an adult, which definitely made my social anxiety worse and led to me being pretty much a shut-in.

how's life, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:00 (two years ago) link

We discuss music, movies, politics, our sex lives in an adult, non-gross way, problems with dating/wives/girlfriends. They find it more helpful than I do. I don't see anything wrong with me for wanting to see them a couple times a month without their spouses and girlfriends. In fact, if anything, in Hispanic culture there's too much of an obsession with couples doing everything together.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:01 (two years ago) link

I've tried steering other men's behavior before and ime it is thankless and usually unhelpful, which is not me saying it's not worth attempting.

― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Thursday, October 12, 2017 5:54 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I feel like this is a massive public health issue and want to do something about it, but I have no idea where to begin

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:02 (two years ago) link

"I don't see the big deal. Maybe my gayness is the x factor."

i would be totally happy to hang out with a group of gay guys. i miss hanging out with gay guys. living with gay men in philly and knowing a wide range of gay men was one of my favorite things about living there. living in squaresville can suck sometimes.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:02 (two years ago) link

i think men should make sure they listen to a lot of music by artists who are not male and read a lot of books by authors who are not male. that sounds like a very simple thing, but it's important.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:03 (two years ago) link

i will say though on behalf of my squaresville that the men i know and am friends with tend to be mellow/creative/metrosexual/progressive/not gross/freak folkers and i can't say enough good stuff about them. but i don't really hang with men outside of music events that much.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:06 (two years ago) link

xps: I would definitely not categorically exclude gay guys from the group of men who think they can let loose with their misogyny once they think it's 'just us guys'.

how's life, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:08 (two years ago) link

i mean a lot of the men i know COULD be gay if they just tried harder. those are the str8 guys i get along with best.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:09 (two years ago) link

Several straight friends are gayer than I am.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:10 (two years ago) link

i think men should make sure they listen to a lot of music by artists who are not male and read a lot of books by authors who are not male. that sounds like a very simple thing, but it's important.

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 1:03 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Totally. I can't really shut up about it, but I've been somewhat obsessed with Adrianne Lenker/Big Thief lately. The first song on the new album has been having a huge affect on me, the way I see male-female relationships, sex, etc., it really puts some things together that I sort of was subliminally aware of but hadn't allowed myself to get in touch with. In general her lyrics are so humanizing and I find her very therapeutic to listen to.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:11 (two years ago) link

*effect

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:11 (two years ago) link

I would definitely not categorically exclude gay guys from the group of men who think they can let loose with their misogyny once they think it's 'just us guys'.

this is def true but gay misogyny is a different beast, it's coming from a different place where the sexual frustration/aggression angle doesn't come into it

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:12 (two years ago) link

The most heinous group I know is around an acquaintance/former lover who never lets an opportunity to shame women slip by.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:13 (two years ago) link

this is def true but gay misogyny is a different beast, it's coming from a different place where the sexual frustration/aggression angle doesn't come into it

I don't really buy that. The misogyny I've seen from both straight and gay men revolves around demeaning women and reducing them to objects that are at disposal; whether they want to touch them sexually or not doesn't drive the behavior, which manifests similar patterns of diminishing, gaslighting, and undermining.

Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:15 (two years ago) link

one of cyrus's best friends has a gay dad - this kid has two moms and two dads for the total western mass package - who is totally into 80's/synth/disco and when he comes around i try not jump on him with madonna talk but i get starved! rupaul was his roommate in the 80's! how can i resist?

some sorta x-post

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:16 (two years ago) link

The misogyny I've seen from both straight and gay men revolves around demeaning women and reducing them to objects that are at disposal; whether they want to touch them sexually or not doesn't drive the behavior, which manifests similar patterns of diminishing, gaslighting, and undermining.

otm

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:17 (two years ago) link

Nomar OTM about reading books by women, listening to music made by women, experiencing art made by women. I've made a concious effort the last year to read more women, and I don't know if it has profoundly altered the way I see thee world, but it's also helped me understand some subleties abt the experience of women in the world. Idk. I try, but I'm no paragon of virtue. I think especially when I was younger, late teens/early twenties, I probably said lots of inappropriate or terrible things when hanging out with dudes. But it's important to be work at being better and acknowledge the fact that by making (even ironic) sexist or racy jokes we are perpetuating a bad thing.

Ass far as hanging out in male groups -- I think a significant portion (20%?)of my socializing is in a male only environment, but it's never organized or thought of in those terms. There are a couple of guys I get together with once or twice a month to listen to 78s. We're just the only ppl we know who are nerdy about that music at that level, and we're all happily married. Rarely does the topic of wives come up; too busy talking about alternate takes and who was playing 2nd guitar on a session. If anything, we most often express how thankful we are to have partners who indulge our weird hobbies and other quirks.

Helen and I don't go out with other couples very much in a "double date" kinda way, but our neighborhood pals are a healthy mix of men and women. A group of people coming over for dinner or to listen to records is never one or the other. Definitely having close friends who are women has helped me to be a better person and more concious of my words/actions.

ian, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:19 (two years ago) link

Maybe ILB should stop having FAPs :(

Tom's Tits Experiment (Tom D.), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:28 (two years ago) link

i think w/the exclusively male nights out i've had, there is this sense of MEN, TO BATTLE, for tonight we etc etc. it's a little lame. i do have a few male friends with whom i have some record listening parties and talk audio shop and equipment and the like, though we've also had women involved w/both (just not most of the time.) that feels a bit more natural as opposed to a "just the boys" night out.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:29 (two years ago) link

you need a gay man in your life, nomar

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:29 (two years ago) link

maybe it's because i think my friends skew younger but if there happens to be an all-dude hangout it's unintentional and ends up being like record shopping/listening and beers and n64 basically. and it's usually 2-3 guys, never like a big posse

global tetrahedron, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:37 (two years ago) link

xp no kidding, i mean none of my bros want to talk about saint etienne w/me

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:39 (two years ago) link

oh so you all take it seriously this time

imago, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:39 (two years ago) link

This discussion has prompted me to try and remember the last time I hung out with just guys (who weren't my brothers)...and I honestly think it could've been a decade or more ago.

the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:43 (two years ago) link

Like the closest I can think of was an all-male anxiety group (organized and run by my then-therapist, a woman). And that isn't quite what I'd call a 'hang'.

the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:46 (two years ago) link

Heh, it's actually kind of a problem that a lot of my straight male friends are musicians who often want to talk to me specifically (and not my wife) about music shit that only we care about.

My gay friends want to talk about books (but are way better about including everyone in the conversation).

change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:48 (two years ago) link

Wow, you guys have whole groups of friends!

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:48 (two years ago) link

I often see a conversation on twitter where
1. women will talk about how men have a responsibility to challenge problematic comments made by male friends, esp when in all-male groups
2. a bunch of men will respond saying that avoid hanging out with the kind of guys who say stuff like that, or avoid hanging out in all-male groups altogether because they find them toxic
3. women will respond saying that this is not helpful/an abrogation of responsibility etc, that men who consider themselves 'allies' or whatever have a duty to engage with these ppl/situations.

idk, befriending ppl you don't enjoy spending time with solely so you can admonish them for their bad behavior seems unlikely to end well for anyone? to actually maintain those friendships imo you would have to pick your battles to a certain extent, let some things slide, be complicit up to a point, and where do you draw the line? but I can see the logic of saying that a guy who avoids this kind of environment to keep himself 'pure' is actually doing less to help than someone who hangs out in groups that are problematic but makes some attempt to push back against that.

soref, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:52 (two years ago) link

wait i thought white claw was clearly marketed to women?
nothing says "ladies" like unsweetened fruity selzer with booze
i have even seen stupid memes about it being for "hot girls only"
i have ingested exactly 1 white claw and it was ok, unremarkable

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:00 (one month ago) link

Is it 'soft' seltzer, though? I think not!

(Grasping at straws, obv.)

pomenitul, Friday, 16 August 2019 15:01 (one month ago) link

This is reminding me of when all the noize board kept talking about Sparks (the drink).

Yerac, Friday, 16 August 2019 15:02 (one month ago) link

no because soft drinks = nonalcoholic, hard = alcoholic

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:02 (one month ago) link

white claw has succeeded in making everyone talk about it, and that makes me want to ingest it less

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:02 (one month ago) link

they're making like a half a billion dollars a year on the stuff, the idea that part of their marketing budget is paying people to generate memes is not a huge stretch

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:09 (one month ago) link

they're okay. I think they work better than all the hard-lemonade stuff (like Smirnoff or whatever) b/c that shit has tons of sugar in it so by the time you're on your 3rd one your stomach feels like it wants to fall out. White Claws don't really taste *good* but they're actually a bit better than putting vodka in a La Croix which I used to do a lot

frogbs, Friday, 16 August 2019 15:10 (one month ago) link

It's 104 degrees here during happy hour, so whatever I am drinking, I'm drinking a Topo Chico along with it.

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:12 (one month ago) link

White Claw is good and it's a huge improvement over the previous Mike's Hard generation of malt beverages that had as much sugar as a mountain dew

like if you are outside and don't feel like a beer it's p tasty

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:13 (one month ago) link

I just assume that any sweet/fruity alcoholic beverage automatically codes as 'for the ladies' with dudes because I have gotten an endless stream of flak for the 'girl drinks' in which I've shamelessly indulged throughout my drinking career.

Amply Drizzled with Pure Luxury (Old Lunch), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:26 (one month ago) link

hard seltzer is for everyone. it's the "I'm vaguely healthy or whatever but I'm having a drink" drink. Or what you have when you're definitely unable to have another heavy craft brewed ipa.

When you're definitely being healthy but want to get messed up? Well, we have a new contender: https://www.eater.com/2019/8/14/20805323/four-loko-hard-seltzer-sour-white-claw-14-abv

untuned mass damper (mh), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:31 (one month ago) link

Unsweetened soda with vodka or gin drinks have been huge here for a couple of years and are not gendered (in the circles I travel in and in terms of advertising or packaging aesthetics)

bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:31 (one month ago) link

It's like the lacroix of alcohol

bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:32 (one month ago) link

pretty much!

I've noticed it taking over some of the space of cheap/light beer. So if you're a craft brew person and want to drink a canned non-beer beverage but beer snobbery is keeping you from grabbing a Bud Light, you grab a hard seltzer.

untuned mass damper (mh), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:36 (one month ago) link

beer snobbery is keeping you from grabbing a Bud Light

Is that the only possible reason.

pomenitul, Friday, 16 August 2019 15:39 (one month ago) link

my little brother thinks he might have a gluten sensitivity, he got drunk on White Claws and said it was the first hangover he ever had that didn't come with a massive stomachache

frogbs, Friday, 16 August 2019 15:42 (one month ago) link

xp no

some bartending friends who worked an outdoor festival a couple years back that had a white claw sponsorship started pouring a shot of vodka in with a can of white claw over ice. it makes me think that, branding aside, the four loko people may have a market

untuned mass damper (mh), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:45 (one month ago) link

I just assume that any sweet/fruity alcoholic beverage automatically codes as 'for the ladies' with dudes because I have gotten an endless stream of flak for the 'girl drinks' in which I've shamelessly indulged throughout my drinking career.

― Amply Drizzled with Pure Luxury (Old Lunch), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:26 (twenty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

cider

phil neville jacket (darraghmac), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:54 (one month ago) link

bring back Zima

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 August 2019 15:54 (one month ago) link

iirc Zima did come back a few years ago

it basically got laughed off in the late 90s then immediately was eclipsed by Smirnoff Ice and others which were basically the same sort of product

untuned mass damper (mh), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:56 (one month ago) link

in short, Zima has never left us

untuned mass damper (mh), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:56 (one month ago) link

Zima is very popular in Japan.

Yerac, Friday, 16 August 2019 15:57 (one month ago) link

zima was so gross
i like white claw if i am looking to have a drink but not feel full or specifically drink a beer
we have them at band practice so they must be cool and also for women ;)

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 16 August 2019 15:59 (one month ago) link

I hate hard seltzer a lot

In the universe of drinks like hard seltzer, I either want a regular non-alcoholic seltzer or a giant frilly drink wearing a blouse, preferably blue or green in color that looks like it was made by Guinan

White Claw deez nutz, is basically how I break it down to an extent

I don't think my antipathy is gendered but who knows

brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:01 (one month ago) link

yeah I will happily be a girl drink drunk but I have no use for "hard" seltzer/lemonade/wine coolers whatever

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 August 2019 16:03 (one month ago) link

*rereads "White Claw deez nutz", reconsiders last sentence*

brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:03 (one month ago) link

lol

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 August 2019 16:04 (one month ago) link

Get a good white wine. Get some seltzer. Chill both. Put them together in a 40/60, 50/50, or 60/40 ratio according to your taste. Add lime if you want. Enjoy, and opt out of capitalistic gender madness.

Three Word Username, Friday, 16 August 2019 16:05 (one month ago) link

i liked white claw the couple of times i've had it, seemed p harmless & inoffensive to me. just tasted like lacroix more or less

my taste in alcohol though has changed a lot, i p much only drink really light cheap beers apart from sours, if i spend any amount of money it's more likely gonna be on a good cider or a if i'm at the right bar then a mixed drink

marcos, Friday, 16 August 2019 16:05 (one month ago) link

i like drinking gin/vodka and soda so having such a thing in a can with a light flavouring like a lacroix is a good thing.

these are not gendered drinks - unless they're gendered by extremely fragile males

bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:06 (one month ago) link

I find that the alcohol aftertaste combined with the seltzer aftertaste is reminiscent of licking a tire

brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:07 (one month ago) link

it always surprises me how much flak I continue to get from (male) servers when ordering white wine, strawberry daiquiris, or certain cocktails (anything without gin or whiskey in it, I guess?)

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:12 (one month ago) link

the only good spiked seltzer i've had is arctic summer, which is made by the polar people, and even then it depends on the flavor

american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:13 (one month ago) link

You can pry my mojito out of my cold, dead, properly manicured yet large and masculine hands.

Three Word Username, Friday, 16 August 2019 16:14 (one month ago) link

oh yeah, mojitos are magic

brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:14 (one month ago) link

it always surprises me how much flak I continue to get from (male) servers when ordering white wine, strawberry daiquiris, or certain cocktails (anything without gin or whiskey in it, I guess?)

― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Friday, August 16, 2019 9:12 AM (five minutes ago)

i like to remember the time i got a bellini (an actual bellini with fresh peaches not the weird slushy versions which are popular) and the server went round the table offering it to every woman seated until i claimed it

bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:19 (one month ago) link

lol bellinis just remind me of Matt DC's hilarious second-hand Usher-vs-bartender story so I can't take them seriously anymore

brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:20 (one month ago) link

(for those who haven't read it: people who've been on TV whom you've pwned)

brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:22 (one month ago) link

note that the delivery has not aged well

brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:22 (one month ago) link

As the Hugo (look it up -- it's damn delicious) spreads outside of Austria, there seems to be some effort to gender it as a girl drink as well, but f that. I will have two, one for each oversized bruised-knuckled fist.

Three Word Username, Friday, 16 August 2019 16:29 (one month ago) link

wine spritzers? we already came up with a more sugary faux version back in the bartles & jaymes days

untuned mass damper (mh), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:37 (one month ago) link

oh my god. i had never read the usher story.

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:39 (one month ago) link

I drink a lot of wine, gin, random cocktailish stuff in my regular pub and I get joshed on it but almost never in a challenging my masculinity way which is cool really

PMS change (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:42 (one month ago) link

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/08/importance-friendship-older-men/596692/

Dean: Going back to your question about guys, middle-aged guys in particular—it isn’t just loneliness that a lot of people experience at that age. It’s almost a sense of despondency, and that manifests itself in all sorts of destructive ways.

You really need people around you. Otherwise you start believing the voices in your head. We are wired for community, and not that many people, our age in particular and maybe even more our gender in particular, have communities that can right the ship if what they’re thinking is a little wacky.

j., Friday, 23 August 2019 20:02 (one month ago) link

This belongs here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1xxcKCGljY

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Saturday, 24 August 2019 12:07 (one month ago) link

I watched the video. I'm mixed about ContraPoints because it feels like an obligation to me; it's not something I would choose to watch for pleasure. Natalie is smart and talented and compassionate and her creative style is not generally my thing. Also it's a little bit preaching to the choir for me sometimes.

I did kind of go through a phase where I hated men, just broadly as a group. I'm not saying I was Valerie Solanos or anything like that but I did get a little overheated and over the top about things.

I'm not that way anymore. Now that I can recognize that I'm not a man I can recognize that there are good and positive aspects to manhood, it's not just all about violence and hatred. Being part of the trans community has also really helped me with that. There are very strict rules about treating everybody as valid, with respect and kindness. It is not OK to talk about how men are awful or call a man ugly or ridicule or make fun of men. One can talk about "toxic masculinity" but it is very clear that not all masculinity is toxic masculinity. Epic giant robot battles, for instance, that stuff is very masculine and is pretty cool even though I've come to the conclusion that me personally I'd mostly just rather watch people talk about their emotions and shit.

And like Natalie, I don't believe I can possibly have the answers anymore. Men have to work things out for themselves and I don't really have a say in that because of who I am. You know, a positive vision of masculinity? That would be nice. I tried that, I tried the Iron John thing, and I'll be honest with you it wasn't really a good thing for me because the first thing I tried to do was come out as trans, and this was the '90s, and that was very uncomfortable for them and devastating for me.

Is there a larger Gender Crisis going on? I don't know, really, yeah I don't want to catastrophize but it does seem to me like everything is falling to bits, shit just doesn't work like it used to. And I can't really differentiate. Yeah I was really frustrated with the straitjacket of male expectations, but Natalie's joke, I mean, it's really a barbed one. I've been accused of not really being a woman, just a man who hates toxic masculinity. That's a hurtful and invalidating thing to say, and on reflection it just doesn't correspond with my actual lived experience.

What would make it better for guys? You know what it occurs to me that you might be happier if you could express physical affection, if you weren't afraid that looking good (I don't mean "sexy" I mean just, like, wearing clothes that fit properly) or being emotionally vulnerable made you some sort of beta soy boy, if you felt able to, at least occasionally, be kind and supportive to each other instead of this constant stream of trash talk. But I don't know, I'm not a guy, and maybe that's just not something that's as meaningful to guys as it is to women.

I feel like I am turning every fucking thread on this board into Kate's Gender Issues Workshop. Well, it's been kind of a big week for me and I have lots of shit to work through.

Abigail, Wife of Preserved Fish (rushomancy), Saturday, 24 August 2019 17:52 (one month ago) link

As a longtime fan, I was a bit disappointed in the Contrapoints video; usually she manages to dive deep and find some new angle or avenue of research, and that didn't happen here, despite her unusual (for pundits/culture commentators) vantage point of having lived/presented as a man. I get that it's not her job/responsibility but just throwing her hands up at the end felt like a cop-out.

Simon H., Saturday, 24 August 2019 17:56 (one month ago) link

I don't think anything she said was *wrong* to be clear, and I also totally get why someone in her position would be wary of engaging too directly in Men's Discourse or whatever.

Simon H., Saturday, 24 August 2019 17:57 (one month ago) link

Is there a larger Gender Crisis going on? I don't know

Feels to me more like the lifting of a set of strictly-enforced gender repressions. When women demanded property rights and the vote, there was plenty of public hand-wringing about how awful it was that women would start acting like men and gender roles would be destroyed.

Imposed gender roles were taken as ordained and gave the (false) promise of certainty. People much prefer certainty over uncertainty and get upset over losing it, even when the certainty they are trying to cling to was a mirage.

A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 24 August 2019 18:08 (one month ago) link

two weeks pass...

This thread is a turd gold mine:

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/d0y94l/cmv_our_society_is_facing_a_masculinity_crisis/

pomenitul, Sunday, 8 September 2019 09:23 (one month ago) link


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