Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

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Welcome to the MANCAVE bros! Lol psych, this is for contemplating serious issues NOT raised by the men's rights movement, and also we need to stop hijacking the Weinstein thread for real.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:30 (one year ago) link

this is maybe going to sound incredibly dumb, i'm not trying to be #notallmen or #reversepence, but these days i just don't like to hang out with a group of dudes for a night out, or a party that's all men, etc...the energy weirds me out a lot of the time. most of my friends these days all are couples and we hang out as such, but i have other male friends who will just socialize with THA BOYS and i find when i join them that the conversations just go places i'm not comfortable with a lot of the time, or the vibe is just weird, the balance is all off, etc. i don't like the "men's club" feeling. i don't know.

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:39 AM (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

agree

― mookieproof, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:42 AM (forty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, I totally feel you. I am generally averse to 'dude hangs', particularly 'white dude hangs'. Speaking as a white dude, no demographic is more likely to creep me out than other white dudes.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:43 AM (forty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

same

― brimstead, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:44 AM (forty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think the only time I'm in that situation is at band rehearsal but we aren't all white and we aren't all male so it's only intermittently when there's just a subset of us there. idk it doesn't bother me, there's no assholes in the band lol

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:47 AM (forty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Just don't hang out with assholes imo.

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the classic Max Ophuls film Letter from an Unknown Woman is relevant on this point

Did you see the cuts Harvey demanded?

― Anne of the Thousand Gays (Eric H.), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"That's locker room."

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

men who feel the need to exclude women aren't usually up to anything worthwhile ime

where does the conversation go that makes you uncomfortable? i'll admit to being curious.

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:48 AM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I mean, IDK I haven't had that experience so much. I don't hang out with anyone that much these days, but I get together with a group of guys to play music and it's mostly just talk about music, being a dad, work sucks, and maybe football in which case I tune out.

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:49 AM (forty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Seems like a thread derail anyway.

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:49 AM (forty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

men who feel the need to exclude women aren't usually up to anything worthwhile ime

yeah I think this is the real issue

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:50 AM (forty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I really hate the idea of stag weekends

― good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:51 AM (thirty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

in the future they will figure out a way to lower testosterone in unborn male fetuses. or something like that. i'm an optimist! #scifireader

― scott seward, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:51 AM (thirty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the company i work for has a large salesforce of mostly men . they come into the office from all over the country for training and meetings and want to go out in the City while they are here . I only went once and never again , the worst part was that most of them are married but when they come here it's like they are on some fucking weied free for all, it's horrible .

― (•̪●) (carne asada), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:52 AM (thirty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's disgusting ^^^

it's not the testosterone -- it's the culture
we can change it if we try. y'all have kids. time to destroy the fratriarchy :)

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:54 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I have a great core of friends, no assholes, but one of them keeps gravitating toward these sort of fratty activities. For example, he had his 40th birthday in Vegas, and my wife and were all, who actually does this? (So we decided not to go, since Vegas sucks - sorry, Vegas). The other week he made this half suggestion that we go back, but he added "and this time it should be just the guys!" And another friend of mine basically looked at him funny and said, "why? I like having my wife around." Which is to say I think some guys, even not assholes, sometimes get it in their head that they should do guy things in the most cliched guy way possible, and when a group of dudes, even good dudes, get that in their head, things can escalate into assholetry.

Or, like a different friend around the backyard fire pit the other night, actually take out his acoustic guitar and start strumming (and singing!) rudimentary classic rock songs. Don't do that either!

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:54 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^Harvey would have been a lot better off if he'd just done that tho.

― to fly across the city and find Aerosmith's car (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:00 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah that's my attitude to stag parties, just complete befuddlement. "A pre-wedding party, but no women allowed!" Lol what, no, that sounds fucking terrible and dumb. Where are we going, your treehouse?

― good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:00 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The only all-male context I have in my life right now revolves around the alumni group for my all-male college chorus and even there enough of the guys are married to women that it's rare to have a meetup that is actually all male. (We do have an alumni chorus gig every two years, alternating between West Coast US and Japan, where the rehearsals are all-male but we are also in the middle of an activity so there's no real opportunity for things to go super gross.)

I will say that as a straight guy in this context, there is apparently some intragroup harassment that completely bypasses me; one issue that we've had in getting younger alums involved is apparently a core group of guys in their 60s-70s who make a habit of trying to prey on anyone under 30 who shows up. I knew nothing about this until one of my friends told me some stories about rescue missions he and his partner have gone on to keep things above board.

xp: lol, my wife had her 40th in Vegas, as did one of the guys I mentioned who was cockblocking old predators on the last alumni chorus trip.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:00 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"we can change it if we try. y'all have kids. time to destroy the fratriarchy"

my kids were lucky enough to go to a really kind/loving/progressive school during their formative years and it totally helped form them in a really positive way. they are very quick to cry foul if they see/hear anything unfair/sexist/racist. not everyone gets that opportunity. i wish i'd had that!

― scott seward, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:01 PM (twenty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a core group of guys in their 60s-70s who make a habit of trying to prey on anyone under 30 who shows up.

as someone who used to attend an LGBT church (overwhelmingly white men), this is not an unfamiliar phenomenon to me

― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:03 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I wholly reject the notion that ending toxic masculinity requires men not hanging out in groups together, that seems silly. I've had great groups of male friends where no such toxicity existed. But I'm all for ending what-happens-in-vegas style weekends and frat culture and the like. And there is definitely something to the idea that "good" guys will feel pressured to act in a certain guy way when in these situations. I was at an all-guy work dinner recently that got very close to crossing some lines, but thankfully a senior mgmt guy read the situation and was like "Ok, it's time to go."

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:04 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so happy i don't know what a "stag party" is and have to guess

and yeah i have/have had a lot of friends who are extremely "the boys" mentality. i.e. daydrinking & playing Xbox & doing blow. shit is dark. it's so stupid

― flappy bird, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:05 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

La Lechera -- i guess it's that the conversations turn towards talking about women a lot or relationships in a way that feels a bit retrograde, there's always going to be a bit of that type of flirting w/servers that makes me feel like i'm with a bunch of embarrassing uncles, and it feels kind of gloomy for some reason in a very existential dude way. i can't really explain that latter part, it's more an overall feeling i have. that's probably not a great answer.

it differs from other friends where the couples will hang out and it's just fun and easy and no one has any hangups about the lack of dude nights in that particular circle. though there are times when i'll go hang out with one of those dudes. we just don't get all together as a group to visit the secret world of men, away from the women!

we have a son, and his two oldest friends are girls. and i think that's been more helpful than any advice i could give him. i think he's weirded out by dude energy too, maybe. it's good to err on the side of caution!

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:06 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

as someone who used to attend an LGBT church (overwhelmingly white men), this is not an unfamiliar phenomenon to me

As someone who used to host trivia in the only gay bar in town that attracted a 55+ clientele, me neither. The difference here, though, is that these men were not in positions of power, comparatively speaking. Not excusing, just observing.

― Anne of the Thousand Gays (Eric H.), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:06 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Stag party = bachelor party. If they don't have those where you are, hopefully you can guess from "pre-wedding party for men" xp

― good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:07 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

xxxxp yeah man alive otm, ya gotta call em as ya see em. Shit is pretty widespread though. I didn't go to college, but a lot of the friends I was referring to above went to art school. "the boys" / frat mentality extends way beyond actual frats.

― flappy bird, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:07 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I wholly reject the notion that ending toxic masculinity requires men not hanging out in groups together, that seems silly. I've had great groups of male friends where no such toxicity existed. But I'm all for ending what-happens-in-vegas style weekends and frat culture and the like. And there is definitely something to the idea that "good" guys will feel pressured to act in a certain guy way when in these situations. I was at an all-guy work dinner recently that got very close to crossing some lines, but thankfully a senior mgmt guy read the situation and was like "Ok, it's time to go."
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 6:04 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

for the record i'm not suggesting that but then again if men really never hung out in groups that were exclusively men...hmm

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:08 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I feel you, man alive, inasmuch as I have male friends (that I've known 15-20 years and who can comfortably hang out with like my mom) I can chill with as a group of just guys, so I don't condemn the practice in and of itself as much as I personally generally avoid it because the majority of my creepiest hangs have been dude-exclusive.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:09 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The difference here, though, is that these men were not in positions of power, comparatively speaking. Not excusing, just observing.

A detail I'm leaving out is that the people I'm talking about are all on the board of our alumni organization.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:09 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There’s also work-related male hangouts before or after meetings where the women who don’t go/aren’t invited are not given career breaks or don’t get bondy face time with superiors.

― kim jong deal (suzy), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:09 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This should probably be a separate thread, huh.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:10 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There's no "power" per se as far as other alumni are concerned but we do make decisions that affect the current students' abilities to tour, etc.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:10 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, where can we move this discussion?

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:10 PM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

some kind of NO GIRLS clubhouse

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:12 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Rolling Tree House Thread 2017

― flappy bird, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:12 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:14 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

?!?!

"the boys" / frat mentality extends way beyond actual frats.
otm
i foolishly thought if i stayed away from broey fratty people, i could escape it. wrong!

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:15 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yea i agree w/ man alive. probably a better thread for all this btw but whatever

i was extremely averse to all-male situations after going to a boys' catholic high school which was frequently toxic, homophobic, misogynist, crude, awful. after that experience, when i went to college i sought out friendships mostly with women, and i now work in a profession that is 80% women.

but eventually i've found great value in cultivating close, intimate friendships with other men and that sometimes that intimacy can be facilitated by male-only environments. they don't have to be toxic.

in the past decade, i've been part of a few all-male things, all of which have been super healthy, positive, and rewarding, and have never gone into that kind of toxic gross shit mentioned itt: 1) a men's group to talk about healthy sexuality in the context of being a man; 2) a regular "dad's night out" for special needs dads (mostly autism parents) organized by a local autism/special needs non-profit; 3) a regular friday night group w/ some of my childhood male friends, mostly we talk about music, politics, food, art, film, sex too but ime some men are able to talk about sex without being fratty creeps.

though i have talked to male friends and family members that work in male-dominated professions and tbh it sounds fucking horrible

― marcos, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:15 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Rolling No Girls Allowed Treehouse Thread (All Gender Identities Welcome)

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:16 PM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's exactly what bob pollard said
"no girls in the treehouse"

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:17 PM (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I could've sworn there was already some "masculinity" thread

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:19 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i would like to add, perhaps relevant to this thread, that my bad-vibes groups are men who work in the entertainment industry. not all of them are these bad dudes, most are not, but the conversations which wind up occurring are often...not the greatest.

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:19 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there's a few xp

plus like...... most of ilx sadly

― marcos, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:19 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol, my wife had her 40th in Vegas
Ha! Well, women do their own shit in groups, but defending this from afar, I doubt large groups of women get together and turn into assholes the way men often do. Or at least certainly not the same way.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:20 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I doubt large groups of women get together and turn into assholes

lol sometimes I think there is nothing more terrifying than a gang of 10yo girls, the level of real emotional cruelty can just be insane

we're wandering rather far afield here...

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:23 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

(ftr my wife made me go to Vegas with her for her 30th birthday - it was just us though. also I hated almost every second of it apart from the Star Trek experience thing)

― Οὖτις, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:24 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Don't get me started on kids.

BTW, per "locker room," back when the Access Hollywood tapes came out, the same friend who was anti-"dudes only!" in Vegas didn't defend Trump but did observe that the shit he was saying wasn't that different from the shit any one of us (guys) might say in private. My first thought was, not me! But my second thought was that I at least understood what he was talking about. One man's ironic quip ...

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:25 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The last time I was in Vegas, for a wedding (bride was from Vegas), was actually fine, but after that my wife and I basically breathed a sigh that we would never have to go to Vegas again.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:26 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:31 (one year ago) link

where all my gamergate bros at

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:37 (one year ago) link

outmoded. deal

good art is orange; great art is teal (wins), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:37 (one year ago) link

I remember Andrea Juno insisting that men hanging out in groups occasionally was good for them but I didn't understand why she thought that.

Marcos- I understand the male only sexual health group but not the other examples.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:39 (one year ago) link

I've been to one small bachelor party, maybe a dozen years ago. I had some experiences, as the only queer there (afaik), that I had not had before. (The groom behaved impeccably btw.)

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:40 (one year ago) link

FWIW my "bachelor party" was just me and my close friends getting ethiopian food and drinks and seeing some music. There was a brief moment of me and a friend talking shit about a woman we had both dated, with a sort of knowing "Okay, just this once, since it's a *bachelor party*" wink. Even that shittalking didn't get all that ugly.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:42 (one year ago) link

Being a straight, white male has pretty much always felt weird to me inasmuch as I don't relate to most of the things I'm 'supposed' to relate to as a straight, white male. Beyond even just like sports or whatever, I mean weird-ass competitive displays of dominance and strength and machismo and whatever the hell. Just trying to describe the prescriptive aspects of maleness that squick me out, I feel like someone who's always experienced it at a remove and barely has any idea what he's talking about.

the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:43 (one year ago) link

yeah I hear you.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:45 (one year ago) link

bewar! others have trod where you wish to tread: maleness

A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:46 (one year ago) link

i think progressive men who don't want the world to be the way the world has always been need to STEP THE FUCK UP. but i don't know how you change the world. i just try to change myself on the regular. and evolve. i am all for evolution. which can be difficult for people. and which is a daily process. and this is why a lot of men just choose to put their hand down their pants Bundy-style and turn on the boob tube and fuggedahboutit.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:51 (one year ago) link

One thing I was thinking reading the Weinstein thread is how important it is for men to kind of guide other men away from the wrong kinds of attitudes and behaviors and give them an alternative. I feel like I was extremely lucky that I had this freshman year roommate who happened to have this friend from home who was at the school and who became my very good friend -- he was a very confident guy and just wasn't having any of the bullshit. My first weekend we went to hang out with some junior that one of them knew and he was being a complete piece of shit, saying gross stuff about women, pressuring us to get wasted, etc. and the guy who became my friend made an exit for us and then talked on the way home about how much the whole experience sucked, and it made me feel like "Okay, college doesn't have to be like that, I'm not going to go that route."

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:52 (one year ago) link

I'm gonna be the contrarian and say....I don't mind when my buddies wanna hang with me away from wives and girlfriends? And I like/love their wives and girlfriends. I don't see the big deal. Maybe my gayness is the x factor.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:53 (one year ago) link

also, marcos on the other thread describing his gross toxic high school was a description of EVERY school i ever went to. and i went to....five schools. just being around that for so many years was so detrimental.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:53 (one year ago) link

I've tried steering other men's behavior before and ime it is thankless and usually unhelpful, which is not me saying it's not worth attempting.

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:54 (one year ago) link

i have a friend whose marriage ended and he has apparently quite literally gone down a rabbit hole of cocaine and escorts. meanwhile a mutual friend told *me* that guy actually has some kind of problems w/my low-key lifestyle, like how i don't actually want to party anymore (ftr, my partying w/him involved having two beers and him having three cocktails and then insisting we split the bill, so...)

dude i don't want to hang out w/you and listen to your BS "true man" advice about how to live while you're doing lines with someone you're paying to have sex with you.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:57 (one year ago) link

Our friend group has never done all-male things (even the bachelor 'parties' were co-ed), but there are definitely 'ladies only' nights that get organized and my wife hates it.

That said there have been issues over the years with certain dudes tending to dominate the conversation (shocking I know), so I can appreciate wanting a different dynamic. But most of us who are in relationships, y'know, like having our partner at social gatherings with mutual friends.

xp

change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:58 (one year ago) link

yea that's gruesome xp

marcos, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:58 (one year ago) link

i have better friends than that guy, fortunately. i think one aspect of this is that sometimes you change and other people don't change.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:59 (one year ago) link

Maybe my gayness is the x factor.

yeah having non-heteros in an all-male mix definitely alters social dynamics in my experience

Οὖτις, Thursday, 12 October 2017 17:59 (one year ago) link

I'm often in the exclusive company of men when I socialize, and not always all-gay. Generally things don't get gross.

ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:00 (one year ago) link

or should i say, sometimes you change in one direction and other people change in another direction. xp

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:00 (one year ago) link

I didn't have to deal with much toxic maleness as a kid/teen. I'm very thankful for the friends I had back then. I had lots of time with other young men and we were mostly never gross about women, or like weird and competitive. Began to experience it a lot more as an adult, which definitely made my social anxiety worse and led to me being pretty much a shut-in.

how's life, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:00 (one year ago) link

We discuss music, movies, politics, our sex lives in an adult, non-gross way, problems with dating/wives/girlfriends. They find it more helpful than I do. I don't see anything wrong with me for wanting to see them a couple times a month without their spouses and girlfriends. In fact, if anything, in Hispanic culture there's too much of an obsession with couples doing everything together.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:01 (one year ago) link

I've tried steering other men's behavior before and ime it is thankless and usually unhelpful, which is not me saying it's not worth attempting.

― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Thursday, October 12, 2017 5:54 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I feel like this is a massive public health issue and want to do something about it, but I have no idea where to begin

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:02 (one year ago) link

"I don't see the big deal. Maybe my gayness is the x factor."

i would be totally happy to hang out with a group of gay guys. i miss hanging out with gay guys. living with gay men in philly and knowing a wide range of gay men was one of my favorite things about living there. living in squaresville can suck sometimes.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:02 (one year ago) link

i think men should make sure they listen to a lot of music by artists who are not male and read a lot of books by authors who are not male. that sounds like a very simple thing, but it's important.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:03 (one year ago) link

i will say though on behalf of my squaresville that the men i know and am friends with tend to be mellow/creative/metrosexual/progressive/not gross/freak folkers and i can't say enough good stuff about them. but i don't really hang with men outside of music events that much.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:06 (one year ago) link

xps: I would definitely not categorically exclude gay guys from the group of men who think they can let loose with their misogyny once they think it's 'just us guys'.

how's life, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:08 (one year ago) link

i mean a lot of the men i know COULD be gay if they just tried harder. those are the str8 guys i get along with best.

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:09 (one year ago) link

Several straight friends are gayer than I am.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:10 (one year ago) link

i think men should make sure they listen to a lot of music by artists who are not male and read a lot of books by authors who are not male. that sounds like a very simple thing, but it's important.

― nomar, Thursday, October 12, 2017 1:03 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Totally. I can't really shut up about it, but I've been somewhat obsessed with Adrianne Lenker/Big Thief lately. The first song on the new album has been having a huge affect on me, the way I see male-female relationships, sex, etc., it really puts some things together that I sort of was subliminally aware of but hadn't allowed myself to get in touch with. In general her lyrics are so humanizing and I find her very therapeutic to listen to.

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:11 (one year ago) link

*effect

IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:11 (one year ago) link

I would definitely not categorically exclude gay guys from the group of men who think they can let loose with their misogyny once they think it's 'just us guys'.

this is def true but gay misogyny is a different beast, it's coming from a different place where the sexual frustration/aggression angle doesn't come into it

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:12 (one year ago) link

The most heinous group I know is around an acquaintance/former lover who never lets an opportunity to shame women slip by.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:13 (one year ago) link

this is def true but gay misogyny is a different beast, it's coming from a different place where the sexual frustration/aggression angle doesn't come into it

I don't really buy that. The misogyny I've seen from both straight and gay men revolves around demeaning women and reducing them to objects that are at disposal; whether they want to touch them sexually or not doesn't drive the behavior, which manifests similar patterns of diminishing, gaslighting, and undermining.

Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:15 (one year ago) link

one of cyrus's best friends has a gay dad - this kid has two moms and two dads for the total western mass package - who is totally into 80's/synth/disco and when he comes around i try not jump on him with madonna talk but i get starved! rupaul was his roommate in the 80's! how can i resist?

some sorta x-post

scott seward, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:16 (one year ago) link

The misogyny I've seen from both straight and gay men revolves around demeaning women and reducing them to objects that are at disposal; whether they want to touch them sexually or not doesn't drive the behavior, which manifests similar patterns of diminishing, gaslighting, and undermining.

otm

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:17 (one year ago) link

Nomar OTM about reading books by women, listening to music made by women, experiencing art made by women. I've made a concious effort the last year to read more women, and I don't know if it has profoundly altered the way I see thee world, but it's also helped me understand some subleties abt the experience of women in the world. Idk. I try, but I'm no paragon of virtue. I think especially when I was younger, late teens/early twenties, I probably said lots of inappropriate or terrible things when hanging out with dudes. But it's important to be work at being better and acknowledge the fact that by making (even ironic) sexist or racy jokes we are perpetuating a bad thing.

Ass far as hanging out in male groups -- I think a significant portion (20%?)of my socializing is in a male only environment, but it's never organized or thought of in those terms. There are a couple of guys I get together with once or twice a month to listen to 78s. We're just the only ppl we know who are nerdy about that music at that level, and we're all happily married. Rarely does the topic of wives come up; too busy talking about alternate takes and who was playing 2nd guitar on a session. If anything, we most often express how thankful we are to have partners who indulge our weird hobbies and other quirks.

Helen and I don't go out with other couples very much in a "double date" kinda way, but our neighborhood pals are a healthy mix of men and women. A group of people coming over for dinner or to listen to records is never one or the other. Definitely having close friends who are women has helped me to be a better person and more concious of my words/actions.

ian, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:19 (one year ago) link

Maybe ILB should stop having FAPs :(

Tom's Tits Experiment (Tom D.), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:28 (one year ago) link

i think w/the exclusively male nights out i've had, there is this sense of MEN, TO BATTLE, for tonight we etc etc. it's a little lame. i do have a few male friends with whom i have some record listening parties and talk audio shop and equipment and the like, though we've also had women involved w/both (just not most of the time.) that feels a bit more natural as opposed to a "just the boys" night out.

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:29 (one year ago) link

you need a gay man in your life, nomar

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:29 (one year ago) link

maybe it's because i think my friends skew younger but if there happens to be an all-dude hangout it's unintentional and ends up being like record shopping/listening and beers and n64 basically. and it's usually 2-3 guys, never like a big posse

global tetrahedron, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:37 (one year ago) link

xp no kidding, i mean none of my bros want to talk about saint etienne w/me

nomar, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:39 (one year ago) link

oh so you all take it seriously this time

imago, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:39 (one year ago) link

This discussion has prompted me to try and remember the last time I hung out with just guys (who weren't my brothers)...and I honestly think it could've been a decade or more ago.

the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:43 (one year ago) link

Like the closest I can think of was an all-male anxiety group (organized and run by my then-therapist, a woman). And that isn't quite what I'd call a 'hang'.

the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:46 (one year ago) link

Heh, it's actually kind of a problem that a lot of my straight male friends are musicians who often want to talk to me specifically (and not my wife) about music shit that only we care about.

My gay friends want to talk about books (but are way better about including everyone in the conversation).

change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:48 (one year ago) link

Wow, you guys have whole groups of friends!

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:48 (one year ago) link

I often see a conversation on twitter where
1. women will talk about how men have a responsibility to challenge problematic comments made by male friends, esp when in all-male groups
2. a bunch of men will respond saying that avoid hanging out with the kind of guys who say stuff like that, or avoid hanging out in all-male groups altogether because they find them toxic
3. women will respond saying that this is not helpful/an abrogation of responsibility etc, that men who consider themselves 'allies' or whatever have a duty to engage with these ppl/situations.

idk, befriending ppl you don't enjoy spending time with solely so you can admonish them for their bad behavior seems unlikely to end well for anyone? to actually maintain those friendships imo you would have to pick your battles to a certain extent, let some things slide, be complicit up to a point, and where do you draw the line? but I can see the logic of saying that a guy who avoids this kind of environment to keep himself 'pure' is actually doing less to help than someone who hangs out in groups that are problematic but makes some attempt to push back against that.

soref, Thursday, 12 October 2017 18:52 (one year ago) link

Pursuant to man alive's anecdotal assertion that women have historically leaned on him emotionally more than he has leaned on women, I respect this statement, but this has not been my experience. I have been leaned on typically as much by men as I have been by women. What I have observed, however, is that when men express emotional pain, there sometimes has been a response in the listener where the privilege that the man carries makes it difficult for any sympathy/empathy to be felt by the listener-- especially if the listener does not carry the same level of privilege that the man carries. I have more than twice expressed my pain to an individual with less privilege, and the discussion has become frustrated, and I've been told afterward that in expressing my pain, I was unsympathetic to the oppression (and pain) that the listener had themselves experienced. "[x] deals with threats of violence against themselves on a day-to-day basis, and isn't prepared to hear about your pain with any empathy while we're just trying to enjoy a nice meal."

In contrast, many individuals with whom I've spoken about my painful experiences who DO carry less privilege than I do, they have been extremely useful and helpful to speak to-- by dint of having matured in an environment that doesn't necessarily centre them, a series of systems that do oppress and directly cause pain, they have developed better systems of self-care and resilience and have more useful advice. Maybe this is somewhat related to the argument that the article makes about this being an gendered issue.

flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:23 (two months ago) link

Privilege doesn’t wash away emotional pain and it’s no replacement for strong and mutually supportive interpersonal relationships. If there is such a dividebetween romantic partners where one cannot feel sympathy for the other’s pain—because they are seen to be too privileged—that seems like a huge barrier for that couple and they should work through *that*.

Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:30 (two months ago) link

look we all have our different methods and groups innit

deemsthelarker (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:33 (two months ago) link

Also—i agree with the article insofar as putting all your emotional needs on one person is too much pressure and people need to find support networks beyond their partners. I just question how emotional dependency gets framed as “emotional gold digging.”

Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:34 (two months ago) link

Seems fucked up. Like the kind of thing that can be used to emotionally blackmail someone for being a human being who wants love and support. It’s icy and transactional.

Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:35 (two months ago) link

I was thinking yesterday how a lot of the more conservative men's movements (the aforementioned promise keepers, some others that aren't coming to mind at the moment) are framed as a way for men to tackle problems by being a Better Man, where that's a very patriarchal role

I mean, kudos to anyone who tackled substance abuse, infidelity, etc. that way without turning into a weird christian stereotype

mh, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:39 (two months ago) link

It’s icy and transactional.

Yeah, there's an overcorrection at work in some current thinking that leads to thinking of friendships and relationships as a ledger that must always remain balanced, and if it's not, that's evidence of toxicity or The Patriarchy At Work Once Again.

Simon H., Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:42 (two months ago) link

"Emotional gold digging": I don't think it's the best description, but it's a fair description. I myself have recognized that when I am in a state of distress, that oftentimes what I need more than "an ear" or "the right answer" is a some kind of validating response. I've recognized this to such a degree that I've told my partners this: "the next time you see me upset, oftentimes I don't need a discussion so much as I need a hug." I've recognized this to such a degree that when I'm in a state of distress, I might text a friend or tell my partner: "tell me something nice." (I'm not looking for a positive news item, I'm usually looking for an "I love you and you're the best".) Although I feel as if my statements to this end are a genuine and honest expression of my needs, I have been told (by my boyfriends) that, at times, they feel that the directness of this request for validation is itself manipulative. That I'm using my state of distress as leverage to coerce validation. So, I don't think that "emotional gold digging" is off-base, insofar as my own experience is concerned. It has been described to me by my loved ones as feeling like something similar.

flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:46 (two months ago) link

I don’t understand why they feel it hurts them to give you validation when you’re upset. You’re not asking them to be dishonest—just to reassure you that whatever else happens, you matter and people care about you. Seems like one of the jobs of a boyfriend

Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:48 (two months ago) link

n.b. I don’t know anything about the specifics of your relationships, but needing that kind of mild validation doesn’f sound at all manipulative to me

Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:49 (two months ago) link

Well, I mean, I've also had friendships where the amount of validation required by the other absolutely exhausted my capabilities. There is a spectrum.

flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:52 (two months ago) link

Yeah, me too. I just think “gold digging” seems like a cruel way to talk about this dynamic.

Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:58 (two months ago) link

The larger issue is the amount of people suffering with inadequare support systems—not their imperfect ways of coping with this situation

Trϵϵship, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 14:58 (two months ago) link

article reads like sponsored content tbh

difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 7 May 2019 16:32 (two months ago) link

three weeks pass...

This has been discussed to death already, but the plastic surgery angle is new to me:

https://www.thecut.com/2019/05/incel-plastic-surgery.html

pomenitul, Tuesday, 28 May 2019 14:38 (one month ago) link

looks of horrifying quotes in there but this one is maybe the most alarming to me

Eppley’s not sure exactly why a patient would want testicles of dinosaur-egg size. But that’s true of many of his procedures, which he tends to design in response to patients’ requests. If his practice had a slogan, it would be “We don’t care why you want it,’’ he tells me. “And I suspect patients seek me out because they know I won’t ask them. I don’t see it as my job to cast a judgment.”

This one is touchingly jejune:

He also wants to be famous: “I became obsessed with a lot of models around my age who had that real chiseled bone structure,” he recalls. There was one in particular — Colton Haynes from Teen Wolf — who spoke in a monotone voice that reminded Matthew a lot of his own. Haynes never went to college, while Matthew has a master’s in engineering. “These people have all these followers on Instagram,” Matthew says, “and you’re like, Why can’t I have all these followers?”

pomenitul, Tuesday, 28 May 2019 14:47 (one month ago) link

The paragraph that follows also features a remarkably anticlimactic dénouement:

Matthew has striking blue eyes with pale lashes, and, thanks to the procedures, a wide jaw and jutting chin. “I’m definitely more happy with the way I look now,” he tells me, although his life is far from transformed. He lives with his parents and works at Best Buy, an arrangement he originally conceived to help save up for surgery. He’s now planning new procedures, including one to fix what he describes as a bump on the tip of his nose, although I don’t notice it.

pomenitul, Tuesday, 28 May 2019 14:48 (one month ago) link

“I hope everything goes well and this will be a real change,” he wrote on the forum. “But where do I need to begin? I need women, lots of women, to make up for my miserable life. I need a new social circle, a new identity, a new life. I’ve been thinking of leaving my country. I want to live in hotels in tropical countries and live a playboy life there, only fucking hot blonde European girls. I have the money, I have the freedom. I need to go and leave this goddamn rotten place, need to leave everything behind, my old life.”

“I think you are expecting too much from just some jaw implants,” replied another user.

another user otm

Nutcases.

Ned Caligari (Tom D.), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 14:57 (one month ago) link

The second time we speak on the phone, Truth4lie tells me he has just been released from the hospital after attempting suicide. His last jaw-implant revision was still monstrously swollen, and he was so anxious about it that death seemed easier than looking at his face in the mirror.

He swallowed pills, then read on Google that his final hours would be slow and painful. So he called an ambulance. When he woke up in the hospital, it felt like being reborn, joyous, akin to the dopamine rush he always felt after being operated on.

“The prospect of a better surgery result is keeping me alive,” he tells me.

pomenitul, Tuesday, 28 May 2019 15:06 (one month ago) link

keanu/

i need women

lots of women

/keanu

daenerys baker (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 15:07 (one month ago) link

it's the saddest story jg ballard never wrote

contrapoints obliquely addressed this whole phenomenon in her latest video

Flood-Resistant Mirror-Drilling Machine (rushomancy), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 00:40 (one month ago) link

Genuinely informative.

pomenitul, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:25 (one month ago) link

look forward to reading that later. it'll be a treat after my day is done.

FernandoHierro, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:28 (one month ago) link

treat yourself, as it were

j., Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:33 (one month ago) link

the lack of judgement in that is refreshing

i mean, look, i brought the judgement with me, def. but it not being there was yes refreshing.

daenerys baker (darraghmac), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:17 (one month ago) link

yes, good job men for bravely refusing to judge other men, save that shit for women doing normal things

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:33 (one month ago) link

What?

pomenitul, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:35 (one month ago) link

is that a joke web site?

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:37 (one month ago) link

I didn't check their other publications, are there articles mocking women among them?

pomenitul, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:38 (one month ago) link

dear lord

daenerys baker (darraghmac), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:40 (one month ago) link

def need a men-only thread for reading articles about fucking themselves

add it to the list

daenerys baker (darraghmac), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:41 (one month ago) link

/theres-only-one-reliable-way-to-make-your-loads-bigger

jmm, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:44 (one month ago) link

I never thought I'd see a more perfect Cosmo analog for men but there it is

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:45 (one month ago) link

What an interesting website for the Dollar Shave Club. I just learned that the FDA only recently approved an anal sex condom. I live for tidbits like that.

Yerac, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:48 (one month ago) link

the FFNGGHH ptesumably also involved

daenerys baker (darraghmac), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:49 (one month ago) link

I think I just need to stop using the Internet for a year or two

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:50 (one month ago) link

today i learned about something called "scalp micropigmentation" (here is a GIS result https://www.google.com/search?q=scalp+micropigmentation&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR7JvFjMHiAhVHnKwKHYnzDNwQ_AUIDigB&biw=2211&bih=1113) in which you can literally get millions of tiny dots tattooed on your bald head and apparently it is meant for people who want the look of a non-bald person who shaved their head rather than a balding person who shaved their head. you are still bald with this look, mind you - it is stubble tattoos not fake hear. you still have a bald head, but like, it's not a bald head it's a shaved head man. jesus fucking christ

marcos, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:56 (one month ago) link

*fake hair

marcos, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:57 (one month ago) link

men, always with the cosmetic trickery

lumen (esby), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 15:59 (one month ago) link

This Mel website is informative.

Yerac, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 16:02 (one month ago) link

tbf i was fairly judgemental upthread. i can try and place myself more outside the experiences of others if it helps.

FernandoHierro, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 16:11 (one month ago) link

contrapoints obliquely addressed this whole phenomenon in her latest video

"It must needs be remarked that the skull of the Chad ..."

"The one who showed up at the loft door with a box of diskettes from the Finn was a soft-voiced boy called Angelo. His face was a simple graft grown on collagen and shark-cartilage polysaccharides, smooth and hideous. It was one of the nastiest pieces of elective surgery Case had ever seen. When Angelo smiled, revealing the razor-sharp canines of some large animal, Case was actually relieved. Toothbud transplants. He'd seen that before.

`You can't let the little pricks generation-gap you,' Molly said."

Françoise, Laurel, and Hardy (K. Rrosé), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 16:14 (one month ago) link

hahaha, I thought of that too!

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 16:18 (one month ago) link

This Mel website is informative.

The fact that their current banner/logo says "MEL Beta" is probably doing them more harm than good, though.

shared unit of analysis (unperson), Wednesday, 29 May 2019 17:43 (one month ago) link

I thought it was a joke.

pomenitul, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 17:44 (one month ago) link

Ugh, yeah I forced myself to ignore the beta in that context since the guys who sincerely try to use it to categorize their whateverness are trash anyway.

Yerac, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 17:49 (one month ago) link


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